I may add a T-Top to my 2016 190 Outrage.
Give me suggestions for how to add a T-Top to a 2016 190 OUTRAGE. Any ideas will be appreciated
I plan to add a T-Top with the top made of laminated fiberglass.
If you think adding a T-Top to a 2016 190 OUTRAGE is a bad idea, please explain.
2016 190 Outrage Adding T-Top
Re: 2016 190 Outrage Adding T-Top
Q1: did the 2016 190 OUTRAGE have an option for a factory-installed T-Top?
The reason I ask this fundamental question: the most significant problem in adding a T-Top to a Boston Whaler boat after the boat has been manufactured and left the factory without having an option available for an OEM T-Top is the existence of suitable mounting points already embedded into the deck and engineered to be sufficiently strong to handle the loads.
A T-Top will increase the sail area of the boat, and the force of the wind acting on the T-Top will be multiplied by the lever arm length that the T-Top is mounted above the cockpit deck.
The force of the wind acting on any area exposed to the wind increases in a non-linear manner with increase in wind speed. And if the boat is going to be towed on the highway at interstate highway travel speeds of over 55-MPH, the wind force can be significantly greater than the force created by a boat wind speed of maybe 25-MPH. Also, when maneuvering into head winds, say a 20-MPH head wind, just going 25-MPH boat speed creates a 45-MPH boat wind acting on the T-Top.
For these reasons, the attachment of the T-Top supporting frame to the hull at the deck level MUST be done at points in the cockpit deck where there are SIGNIFICANT embedded reinforcements available to attach the T-Top support railings to the boat.
And additional problem is the amount of flexing of the T-Top support railing structure compared to the amount of flexing in the boat hull. When Boston Whaler offers a T-Top option, the design the T-Top support railing structure so the amount of flex in that structure matches the amount of flex in the hull at the point of attachment. If this is not done, then one or the two structures is always going to be trying to flex a greater amount than the other structure will allow, leading to failure of the connection between the two structures. Boston Whaler uses mechanical element analysis software to get the two designs to have similar flexibility.
I know that T-Top structures are a big fad today, particularly with boats being operated in the extreme southern parts of the USA, where the Sun's elevation will tend to very high, so the T-Top can cast shade onto the boat. Where I am boating we are closer to the North Pole than to the equator, and the elevation of the Sun in the sky is NEVER overhead. About the highest the Sun will ever get in occurs in late June at local noon when its elevation will be 68-degrees. But in mid-August at say 4 p.m. the Sun's elevation will be only 48-degrees. Most of the shade cast by a T-Top will not be directly under the T-Top. Also, the higher the T-Top above the heads of the people standing or sitting under it, the farther away the shade will be from those people.
You should consider both these significant problems before proceeding with installation of a T-Top on your boat.
Instead, consider some good weather canvas. The canvas will be lighter, it can be much closer to the top of your head, it will create more shade, and it will not be a problem to attach to the boat.
Another disadvantage of the T-Top is its weight. Any weight carried aloft upsets the stability of the boat.
ANECDOTAL COMMENT: many years ago while boating in the extreme northern part of Lake Michigan in Canadian water, we met a young fellow who had just installed a T-Top on a c.1972 OUTRAGE 21 boat. He confessed that the mounting points for the T-Top were not up to the wind loading, and the T-Top was always coming loose due to the mounting points failing. This is a good example of lack of engineering and design in the construction of a really large sail area device on a rather tall support structure being attached to a mounting point that was never intended to be able to support those loads.
In another chance encounter, I met a fellow with a recently made Boston Whaler boat of about 23-feet or so that came with a factory-installed quite strong arch over the cockpit, which included an attachment point for towing some form of water skier or wake boarder. At some point prior the arch tubing had been damaged, which I think was caused by hitting an overhead obstruction. A repair had been made by welding in a new short section of tubing. When I encountered this boat the welded repair had already broken. I suspect that the repair had made the overall structure too stiff, and it no longer flexed with the hull flexing. The result of the forces exerted onto the tubing by from the hull caused the weld to fail. Another example of ad-hoc design not holding up.
As you can see, I am not endorsing the plan to add a T-Top unless the boat was built with the appropriate mounting points and you could get the OEM T-top from Boston Whaler--which I actually doubt you could.
Do not let me deter you from this project. If you want a T-Top, then you should get a T-Top. There may be some others owners of similar boats that have succeeded in installation of a T-Top and can give you more encouragements.
The reason I ask this fundamental question: the most significant problem in adding a T-Top to a Boston Whaler boat after the boat has been manufactured and left the factory without having an option available for an OEM T-Top is the existence of suitable mounting points already embedded into the deck and engineered to be sufficiently strong to handle the loads.
A T-Top will increase the sail area of the boat, and the force of the wind acting on the T-Top will be multiplied by the lever arm length that the T-Top is mounted above the cockpit deck.
The force of the wind acting on any area exposed to the wind increases in a non-linear manner with increase in wind speed. And if the boat is going to be towed on the highway at interstate highway travel speeds of over 55-MPH, the wind force can be significantly greater than the force created by a boat wind speed of maybe 25-MPH. Also, when maneuvering into head winds, say a 20-MPH head wind, just going 25-MPH boat speed creates a 45-MPH boat wind acting on the T-Top.
For these reasons, the attachment of the T-Top supporting frame to the hull at the deck level MUST be done at points in the cockpit deck where there are SIGNIFICANT embedded reinforcements available to attach the T-Top support railings to the boat.
And additional problem is the amount of flexing of the T-Top support railing structure compared to the amount of flexing in the boat hull. When Boston Whaler offers a T-Top option, the design the T-Top support railing structure so the amount of flex in that structure matches the amount of flex in the hull at the point of attachment. If this is not done, then one or the two structures is always going to be trying to flex a greater amount than the other structure will allow, leading to failure of the connection between the two structures. Boston Whaler uses mechanical element analysis software to get the two designs to have similar flexibility.
I know that T-Top structures are a big fad today, particularly with boats being operated in the extreme southern parts of the USA, where the Sun's elevation will tend to very high, so the T-Top can cast shade onto the boat. Where I am boating we are closer to the North Pole than to the equator, and the elevation of the Sun in the sky is NEVER overhead. About the highest the Sun will ever get in occurs in late June at local noon when its elevation will be 68-degrees. But in mid-August at say 4 p.m. the Sun's elevation will be only 48-degrees. Most of the shade cast by a T-Top will not be directly under the T-Top. Also, the higher the T-Top above the heads of the people standing or sitting under it, the farther away the shade will be from those people.
You should consider both these significant problems before proceeding with installation of a T-Top on your boat.
Instead, consider some good weather canvas. The canvas will be lighter, it can be much closer to the top of your head, it will create more shade, and it will not be a problem to attach to the boat.
Another disadvantage of the T-Top is its weight. Any weight carried aloft upsets the stability of the boat.
ANECDOTAL COMMENT: many years ago while boating in the extreme northern part of Lake Michigan in Canadian water, we met a young fellow who had just installed a T-Top on a c.1972 OUTRAGE 21 boat. He confessed that the mounting points for the T-Top were not up to the wind loading, and the T-Top was always coming loose due to the mounting points failing. This is a good example of lack of engineering and design in the construction of a really large sail area device on a rather tall support structure being attached to a mounting point that was never intended to be able to support those loads.
In another chance encounter, I met a fellow with a recently made Boston Whaler boat of about 23-feet or so that came with a factory-installed quite strong arch over the cockpit, which included an attachment point for towing some form of water skier or wake boarder. At some point prior the arch tubing had been damaged, which I think was caused by hitting an overhead obstruction. A repair had been made by welding in a new short section of tubing. When I encountered this boat the welded repair had already broken. I suspect that the repair had made the overall structure too stiff, and it no longer flexed with the hull flexing. The result of the forces exerted onto the tubing by from the hull caused the weld to fail. Another example of ad-hoc design not holding up.
As you can see, I am not endorsing the plan to add a T-Top unless the boat was built with the appropriate mounting points and you could get the OEM T-top from Boston Whaler--which I actually doubt you could.
Do not let me deter you from this project. If you want a T-Top, then you should get a T-Top. There may be some others owners of similar boats that have succeeded in installation of a T-Top and can give you more encouragements.
Re: 2016 190 Outrage Adding T-Top
In looking at the 2016 owner's manual I do not see a T-top being offered as an option. However I do see the reinforcement location diagram indicates that there are four attachment points in the deck that are reinforced with phenolic and if similar to my 210 Outrage it is where the T-top is attached. The secondary attachment points are located on the console sides and front of the console and are reinforced with backing plates on the inside of the console. I confess to being one of those extreme Southern boaters (Florida) and have held a fishing pole once or twice on by boat so my preference is for a T-top over canvas. Having said that, I would also stay away from a fiberglass T=top and consider canvas for the 190 Outrage. Fiberglass will most likely affect the center of gravity of the vessel especially it's unsinkablity and tendency to roll over in the unforseen event it gets swamped. BTW, the wood locating diagram was found on Boston Whaler's website and can be downloaded.
Re: 2016 190 Outrage Adding T-Top
While not a 2016 190 OUTRAGE, I am in the process of installing a Fishmaster T-Top on my 2000 Outrage 18 [note: corrected length from 18-inches; please do not use single quote or double quote marks to indicate length, as these are often confused and used incorrectly, as was done here].
The shipping from the supplier was very quick. Everything appears to be very good quality--for a Made-in-China product.
The weight of the Fishmater T-Top is just over 100-lbs. The T-Top will be situation at more-or-less the center of gravity of the boat. I am not worried about the weight throwing off the design balance--blah, blah, blah. The weight is no greater than a tall and heavy friend standing next to the console.
The front mounting plates will go into the foredeck adjacent to where the center console is fastened down. This is a very solid part of the deck.'''
The rear mounting plates will straddle the area where the aftdeck bolts down; there are long screws that go through the aft deck and into the area of the foredeck where the aft screws down--very solid area. On the bare aft deck section, I am able to get a stainless backing plate under the floor to really reinforce the mounting.
The Fishmaster T-TOP also come with solid standoffs to stabilize the Top to the center console. If you are expecting very rough conditions, you can add optional diagonal supports that go from the T-Top frame to the front of the center console.
The Stryker T-Top seems very similar, but overall I preferred Fishmaster because of the way the Top folds down and free shipping--smongst other things.
I am happy to answer any questions
--Keith
The shipping from the supplier was very quick. Everything appears to be very good quality--for a Made-in-China product.
The weight of the Fishmater T-Top is just over 100-lbs. The T-Top will be situation at more-or-less the center of gravity of the boat. I am not worried about the weight throwing off the design balance--blah, blah, blah. The weight is no greater than a tall and heavy friend standing next to the console.
The front mounting plates will go into the foredeck adjacent to where the center console is fastened down. This is a very solid part of the deck.'''
The rear mounting plates will straddle the area where the aftdeck bolts down; there are long screws that go through the aft deck and into the area of the foredeck where the aft screws down--very solid area. On the bare aft deck section, I am able to get a stainless backing plate under the floor to really reinforce the mounting.
The Fishmaster T-TOP also come with solid standoffs to stabilize the Top to the center console. If you are expecting very rough conditions, you can add optional diagonal supports that go from the T-Top frame to the front of the center console.
The Stryker T-Top seems very similar, but overall I preferred Fishmaster because of the way the Top folds down and free shipping--smongst other things.
I am happy to answer any questions
--Keith
- Fig. 1. Not Wife Approved: I pre-assembled part of the T-Top in my living room.
- T-top.jpg (86.39 KiB) Viewed 2308 times
Re: 2016 190 Outrage Adding T-Top
I bought a 2003 190 Nantucket in 2017. Same hull as yours. It came with a T-Top. No problems except brushing some low hanging branches in my neighborhood.
https://i.postimg.cc/Ssf43NVz/98-FC4423 ... BC7220.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/Ssf43NVz/98-FC4423 ... BC7220.jpg
Re: 2016 190 Outrage Adding T-Top
If there are embedded phenolic plates at locations that happen to match the design of a non-OEM T-Top, then those locations should be rather strong attachment points. Typically the phenolic material can be drilled and tapped to accept a machine screw; this will produce a better fastening that would occur with a self-tapping screw inserted into a thin laminate section or even into embedded wood reinforcement.fno wrote:In looking at the 2016 owner's manual I do not see a T-top being offered as an option. However I do see the reinforcement location diagram indicates that there are four attachment points in the deck that are reinforced with phenolic and if similar to my 210 Outrage it is where the T-top is attached.
But the crucial factor is the correlation of the mounting points of the non-OEM T-Top with the location of those reinforcements.
Re: 2016 190 Outrage Adding T-Top
Okay on the blah, blah, blah...That's what a lot of do-it-yourself boat designers say, right up to when the stability of the boat is insufficient and it cannot recover from a wave induced roll and capsizes.Keitha wrote: I am not worried about the weight throwing off the design balance--blah, blah, blah...
The principal concern I have raised is not with instability from weight aloft--which is still a completely valid concern--but with the forces generated by wind, and particularly if the boat is to be towed at highway speed. A 65-MPH wind blowing onto the T-Top is going to generate a considerable turning moment. Ignoring that force is what leads to failure of the structure or its mounting points.
Re: 2016 190 Outrage Adding T-Top
From what is seen in Figure 1, the Fishmaster T-Top is not an all-welded structure. It appears to assemble in parts and bolt together. Such a structure will be less rigid than an all-welded structure, and it will probably have some flex at the bolted joints, if not initially then sometime after it has been subjected to the typical stresses of being on a boat in motion in seas and winds for a while.
That is probably a very good feature if the boat is to be towed on the highway, but on the other hand, in a folded down position, the fixed top will create a much larger wind area exposure, although perhaps mitigated by partially being below the gunwale height and in the lee of the center console.Keitha wrote:...I preferred Fishmaster because of the way the Top folds down...
Re: 2016 190 Outrage Adding T-Top
The Fishmaster and Styker type tops are certainly not all welded construction. They are made in China and shipped in a couple of boxes for assembly at your location. My impression is that the quality is good, but there are compromises over a custom made-to-fit T-top that would cost three or four times more.jimh wrote:From what is seen in Figure 1, the Fishmaster T-Top is not an all-welded structure.
The Fishmaster T-top folds forward at the front leg, then the top section folds in half again. This gets the canvas down low in the boat - well bellow the height of the center console and down bellow the level of the gunwale as you mentioned.jimh wrote:[The fold-down feature] is probably a very good feature if the boat is to be towed on the highway, but on the other hand, in a folded down position, the fixed top will create a much larger wind area exposure, although perhaps mitigated by partially being below the gunwale height and in the less of the center console.
I suppose if I was to trailer my boat a long distance at highway speeds, I could easily fold the top and remove the canvas to eliminate any sail effect and mitigate drag on the structure.
The Styker web site has a gallery where you can select your boat and see many examples of the tops installed.
Re: 2016 190 Outrage Adding T-Top
Thanks for the further explanation of how the Fishmaster T-Top can fold down and then fold again. I suppose this feature will be helpful, but you MUST plan to allow for sufficient space in the boat for the T-Top to fold down into. I can't imagine there will ALWAYS be room for the first fold AND the second fold--unless the boat is a really open cockpit design with very little other elements molded into the cockpit design.
ASIDE: When I was fitting just a simple canvas Bimini top to my SPORT 15, I spent a lot of time working with how the top would lay down into a folded position and fit into place without obstructions or without the folded top creating an obstruction. In the end, the mounting point of the railing hinge HAD to be located very precisely to get the desired outcome of being able to fold down and be out of the way.
When you complete the installation of the Fishmaster T-Top, you should start your own new thread and explain the process, with illustrations. There may be considerable interest in seeing how you fitted and installed this off-the-shelf T-Top.
As for custom-made products like a T-Top or a RADAR arch, they are expensive. There was a company in Ohio that made beautiful RADAR arches, and they were charging a fortune for them. But, curiously, they went out of business, and apparently they were not charging enough for their work. In today's world, the price of things like a custom designed, bent, welded assembly unique for your boat is going to cost a rather ridiculous percentage of the boat's value, particularly if it is for a 19-foot boat.
And, speaking of costs, what is the cost of the Fishmaster T-Top you are going to install?
ASIDE: When I was fitting just a simple canvas Bimini top to my SPORT 15, I spent a lot of time working with how the top would lay down into a folded position and fit into place without obstructions or without the folded top creating an obstruction. In the end, the mounting point of the railing hinge HAD to be located very precisely to get the desired outcome of being able to fold down and be out of the way.
When you complete the installation of the Fishmaster T-Top, you should start your own new thread and explain the process, with illustrations. There may be considerable interest in seeing how you fitted and installed this off-the-shelf T-Top.
As for custom-made products like a T-Top or a RADAR arch, they are expensive. There was a company in Ohio that made beautiful RADAR arches, and they were charging a fortune for them. But, curiously, they went out of business, and apparently they were not charging enough for their work. In today's world, the price of things like a custom designed, bent, welded assembly unique for your boat is going to cost a rather ridiculous percentage of the boat's value, particularly if it is for a 19-foot boat.
And, speaking of costs, what is the cost of the Fishmaster T-Top you are going to install?