Re: FUSION MS-205 Radio Creates NMEA-2000 Power Trouble

Electrical and electronic topics for small boats
porthole
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Re: FUSION MS-205 Radio Creates NMEA-2000 Power Trouble

Postby porthole » Thu Aug 24, 2023 2:15 pm

My recent experience with problems caused by a FUSION MS-205 radio feeding power to the NMEA-2000 network--even when the radio was powered OFF--might help someone in the future.

The electronics on my boat associated with the NMEA-2000 network are Simrad EVO3 and NSX multi-function displays, an autopilot (with a Precision 9 GPS compass, NAC-2 controller, and AP-44 head), a NEP-2 Ethernet Network Expansion Port, a Halo 20+ radome, Fuel Data Manager module, a Sirius WM-4 weather satellite receiver, a Standard-Horizon 2400 VHF Marine Band radio, and a Fusion MS-205 entertainment radio. Some devices are also networked with Ethernet.

My goal with regard to providing power to the NMEA-2000 network was to use a simple switch that controlled the 12-volt power from a fuse block sub-panel; this would allow me to power down non-essential items when the engine was not operating, only keeping the chart plotters, the radar, and both the VHF Marine radio and the entertainment radio powered on.

To control power to the NMEA-2000 network I used a BLUE SEA SYSTEMS lighted push button switch.

There were several problems:
[list][*]the switch illumination would never turn off completely nor display the right color; the illumination was supposed to be BLUE when the switch was off and RED when the switch was on;[*]disconnecting the network power from the sub-panel would result in some [network devices remaining] powered up;[*]transmitting on the VHF Marine Band radio at 25-Watt power caused the [network] power to shut down;[*]transmitting at 1-Watt would not shut down the [network] power.

I contacted Blue Sea Systems. They told me the switch I was using was discontinued [due to internal contact leakage] and was now replaced with a newer model [without any internal contact leakage]. Blue Sea Systems sent me a new switch. The new switch had a slightly larger mounting hole--there was already a big hole in the center of my dashboard.


WC_switch.jpeg
Fig. 1. A dashboard switch around which a red circle has been drawn to draw attention to the switch.
WC_switch.jpeg (37.36 KiB) Viewed 2276 times


The new switch had almost identical problems: the switch illumination was not working correctly; it was only a red LED when powered on.

I was frustrated to the point that I installed a simple ON-OFF switch, fed from a separate 12-Volt source [to control power to the network]; this change was a clue to look elsewhere [for the cause of the problems]: [leakage in the BLUE SEA SYSTEM switch controlling power to the network was not the cause of the problem because the problem remained with the simple ON-OFF switch].

On the FUSION MS-205 radio there two different NMEA-2000 interface cables available, one black and one red: if a black cable is used then the radio DOES NOT power the attached network; if a red cable is used, the radio DOES power the attached network. When installing the FUSION MS-205 radio, the red powered NEMA-2000 port cable should not be used [if connecting to an already] powered network.

The boat manufacturer installed [the FUSION MS-205 so it was powering the network, that is, with the red cable]. The network power was like this for six years with no problems.

Even when the FUSION MS-205 radio power switch was set to OFF, the FUSION radio was still feeding power to the network backbone. And through the backbone the radio was powering some of the devices, even when [the other source of network power via the switch was OFF. Also an LED [on the BLUE SEA SYSTEMS illuminated switch was ] dimly illuminated. I didn't think this was possible.

One fix was ordering [the special black drop cable with blocked power; this was as going to take several weeks. The alternative was to buy and use an NMEA-2000 power isolator in the [red] drop cable between the FUSION MS-205 radio and the network backbone.

I installed a power isolator; all is now good.
Thanks,
Duane
2016 World Cat 230DC
1999 Outrage 21, Yamaha SW Series II 200
1997 Outrage 18, Yamaha 125
1983 15 SS, Honda 50
1980 42 Post
1983 34 Luhrs 340 SF

jimh
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Re: FUSION MS-205 Radio Creates NMEA-2000 Power Trouble

Postby jimh » Thu Aug 24, 2023 8:26 pm

In the NMEA-2000 standard, a device SHOULD NOT try to power the network. Network power should only be inserted at a power node. As you discovered with the FUSION entertainment product, some manufacturers whose electronic devices have a NMEA-2000 port, will incorrectly configure their devices to power the network. I guess they do this because they want to make installation of their device simpler for users who will only create a NMEA-2000 network for, say, a FUSION entertainment device and perhaps one other device associated with the entertainment radio.

Entertainment devices like these FUSION entertainment radios are notorious for causing NMEA-2000 network problems because their NMEA-2000 interface is also providing network power. It sounds like with the FUSION MS-205 model there is, at least, a method to NOT power the network--if you get the correct drop cord.

SPECIAL CONSIDERATION FOR THE FUEL DATA MANAGER MODULE
Because you have NAVICO multi-function displays--your SIMRAD devices--the fuel manager function in those devices has been designed to rely on an external memory and function module, the FUEL DATA MANAGER module. I have much experience with those modules.

I have found the FUEL DATA MANAGER module is prone to errors. The problem arises because the FUEL DATA MANAGER module gets its power via the network drop cable, so anytime there is network power the FUEL DATA MODULE will be powered on. If the network power is left on for a long time, AND the engine that the fuel manager has been configured to use as the source of fuel flow rate data is NOT also powered at the same time, there can be a loss of data in the fuel data module.

This problem is again caused by a bad assumption on the part of the manufacturers about network power. In this case, there was an assumption that the network power would ALWAYS come from a propulsion engine and the ignition key switch ACCY circuiy. In this way, the FUEL DATA MANAGER would never be powered-on UNLESS the propulsion engine was also powered-on.

Like you, I configured the power for my NMEA-2000 network to have the ability to get network power independently from the boat HOUSE battery. The first few days I used the boat with this configuration, and I left the network powered on for a long time without having the propulsion engine also powered on, the FUEL DATA MANAGER lost its stored data.

My inference from this behavior was that the FUEL DATA MANAGER (FDM) was expecting to be getting data from the propulsion engine whenever the FDM had power, and if there was no sign of the propulsion engine on the network, the FDM would eventually give up and revert to a blank state.

You may want to watch for this same behavior in the FUEL DATA MANAGER module you have.

NAVICO may have fixed this problem with some later firmware updaters. I really have not tested for this problem with my FDM (an older version called the EP-85 DATA STORAGE MODULE) because I reconfigured my boat's NMEA-2000 network to have the propulsion engine and the FDM on a separate power branch. In that isolated branch, the network power comes from the propulsion engine, so if the FDM is powered on, that means the propulsion engine is also powered on.

In order for me to test if the problem I described with memory loss in the FDM were still present, I would have to re-wire the network. I don't want to do to that, as with my configuration, everything works as it should. So, as they say, "if it's not broke, don't fix it."

porthole
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Re: FUSION MS-205 Radio Creates NMEA-2000 Power Trouble

Postby porthole » Fri Aug 25, 2023 10:14 am

A newer version of the same FUSION entertainment radio apparently has a NMEA-2000 power insertion ON-OFF menu item. The in-line power isolator gizmo was a much less expensive option than a new entertainment radio.

If you were following on THT someone mentioned an obscure term, which was the clue I needed to deduce the source of the problem: NRX. Searching on that term was the ticket.

Simrad fuel data manager. Was never pleased with the performance on the Outrage with Lowrance part numbers and MFD’s, and the Simrad part doesn’t disappoint with wonky data collecting.

At least now I have an idea why I can’t depend on it for reliability over my paper notes.
Thanks,
Duane
2016 World Cat 230DC
1999 Outrage 21, Yamaha SW Series II 200
1997 Outrage 18, Yamaha 125
1983 15 SS, Honda 50
1980 42 Post
1983 34 Luhrs 340 SF

jimh
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Re: FUSION MS-205 Radio Creates NMEA-2000 Power Trouble

Postby jimh » Fri Aug 25, 2023 1:21 pm

porthole wrote:...on THT someone mentioned an obscure term, which was the clue I needed to deduce the source of the problem: NRX. Searching on that term was the ticket...
I think you are alluding to the FUSION MS-NRX300 NMEA-2000 network remote control device. As I mentioned, I infer that FUSION intended their entertainment radio and this remote control device to communicate via NMEA-2000 and probably be the only devices on the network. Actually that would not be a bad way to go, that is, get the entertainment radio off the boat electronics and engine and fuel monitoring network, so the entertainment radio does not kill something on the network just when you need the network to work properly, and let them talk on their own private network, isolated from the important stuff.

porthole
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Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:57 pm
Location: LSD Lower Slower Delaware

Re: FUSION MS-205 Radio Creates NMEA-2000 Power Trouble

Postby porthole » Fri Aug 25, 2023 1:45 pm

The NRX term I used for searching [led me to] this link.
https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?faq=rESkyLu9o576lsGDTgrDF8

Garmin wrote:Fusion Devices Powered by a NMEA 2000 Network
All Fusion stereos and some Fusion remotes must be connected directly to a power source with their own power wires in order to receive power, but the NRX series remotes are powered from the NMEA 2000 backbone.

MS-NRX200
MS-NRX200i
MS-NRX300

Additionally, some Fusion stereos are capable of supplying power to an NRX remote via the attached NMEA 2000 cable without the need for an additional NMEA 2000 power cable on the network. See the stereo's owner's manual for whether or not the stereo has this ability, and see Related Content for information on connecting a Fusion remote and stereo to a NMEA 2000 backbone.


As to having a dedicated network for the radio, I use the Simrad MFD's to control the stereo. When a radio such as the Fusion series is on the network a mini side bar menu item is available on the MFD as well as a full screen radio display. And not that I use the feature but since the VHF is also on the network, the VHF is available for listening on the Fusion as an input source for audio. Not a very useful feature for me.
Thanks,
Duane
2016 World Cat 230DC
1999 Outrage 21, Yamaha SW Series II 200
1997 Outrage 18, Yamaha 125
1983 15 SS, Honda 50
1980 42 Post
1983 34 Luhrs 340 SF