2001 16 DAUNTLESS: Sell or Re-power

A conversation among Whalers
Tg196
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2016 6:33 pm
Location: Boston Mass.

2001 16 DAUNTLESS: Sell or Re-power

Postby Tg196 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:20 pm

I am really struggling with selling my 2001 16 Dauntless with a Mercury 90. For the most part it serves my needs--especially when I'm solo--and it is a fun little boat.

Having said that I would love to move into a used 18 or 20 Outrage--older hull would be fine--more space for the occasional family cruise or fishing with buddies. If I were to keep my Dauntless, I would like to re-power. The Mercury 90 runs great and has always maintained, however can be a bit of a dog. The boat tops out currently at 26 to 27 with a full tank and myself--180lbs. The propeller is stock.

What could I expect for speed with a new 115-HP engine?

I'd love to hear thoughts and opinions. Thanks in advance--TG

Jefecinco
Posts: 966
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2015 6:35 pm
Location: Gulf Shores, AL

Re: 2001 16 DAUNTLESS: Sell or Re-power

Postby Jefecinco » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:40 pm

A 115 HP engine is perfect for the Dauntless 16 or 160 Dauntless. I had a 1999 with a 115 Evinrude FICHT engine with a four blade propeller. I don't remember the propeller size and my notes were thrown out when we sold the boat to move to a 190 Whaler. For the past few years I've deeply regretted selling the little Dauntless. It was fine for three anglers, two couples or a handful of children.

If you'd care to search the Old Forum under Jefecinco in the 1999 and 2000 years you could find some posts on my propeller choice.
Butch

Tg196
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2016 6:33 pm
Location: Boston Mass.

Re: sell or repower

Postby Tg196 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:12 pm

Once again thanks Butch, I will take a look, exactly my thoughts.. I don't want to regret selling, but am torn on a bigger boat

jimh
Posts: 6617
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:25 pm
Location: Michigan, Lower Peninsula
Contact:

Re: 2001 16 DAUNTLESS: Sell or Re-power

Postby jimh » Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:11 pm

I would not invest in a new engine to re-power the 2001 DAUNTLESS 16, unless you plan to keep the boat for a long time. Generally the cost of a new engine for an older boat will be rather more than any increase in value in the boat with the new engine. If you spent $10,000 buying a new 115-HP engine, the boat value probably would not increase by $10,000. That seems to be just how it works with old boats and brand-new engines.

An OUTRAGE 18 is a bit more boat, but you can still keep it on a single-axle trailer. If you move to an OUTRAGE 20 you might need a tandem-axle trailer. Also consider your towing vehicle, as bigger boats on bigger trailers with bigger engines will need a bigger tow vehicle.

Another aspect of the re-power: the old low-technology Mercury 90 is a nice engine, but just isn't emission compliant or very fuel efficient. If you don't go boating on lakes that have emission regulations restricting use of old outboard engines, the exhaust emission won't be much of a concern--except to environmentalists. The amount of fuel a 90-HP engine burns and the present day price of gasoline do not add up to much potential for fuel savings by re-powering to a modern engine. A 90-HP carburetor might burn on average 4-GPH. A new engine might average about 2-GPH. If you use the boat 50-hours a year, you might save 100-gallons of fuel, at $2/gallon. To recover $10,000 in new engine cost by saving $200 a year in fuel will take you 50-years.

As for potential for higher speed, increasing to 115 from 90 will increase top speed by a factor of 1.13 or less. If the boat goes 27-MPH now, you may hit 31.5-MPH. Is that worth $10,000?

number9
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:25 pm

Re: 2001 16 DAUNTLESS: Sell or Re-power

Postby number9 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:33 pm

however can be a bit of a dog... tops out currently at 26-27 with a full tank and myself
Before spending a fortune to repower I'd recommend looking at changing your engine mounting height and prop. The speeds you're reporting don't match the boat/power and it should be in the 30s.
......
Last edited by number9 on Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jefecinco
Posts: 966
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2015 6:35 pm
Location: Gulf Shores, AL

Re: 2001 16 DAUNTLESS: Sell or Re-power

Postby Jefecinco » Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:59 am

There is only so much 90 HP can do with a heavy 160 Dauntless. I agree that before spending for a repower it would be wise to ensure the engine mounting location and propeller combination are optimum.

I don't recall the WOT speed on our previous Dauntless 16 but believe it was low forties per the GPS lightly loaded.

Repowering a used boat is almost never a money saver nor is buying a larger boat. These decisions are emotional rather than purely rational. I believe if you have a boat you love and plan to keep and your resources are sufficient a repower makes more sense than another boat.

If I was going to repower a 160 Dauntless I would choose the lightest new engine available. The boats are stern heavy and too much weight aft will sink the scuppers. The 115 HP Evinrude engine on our Dauntless was a V4 FICHT two stroke and it's weight was not quite too much. I believe the 115 HP E-Tec may be an inline 3 cylinder engine but I don't know how the weight compares to a much later V4 design.
Butch

User avatar
Todd
Posts: 70
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:56 am

Re: 2001 16 DAUNTLESS: Sell or Re-power

Postby Todd » Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:11 pm

Hi Tg196, I currently operate a 2003 160 Dauntless with the Mercury 115 FOURSTROKE engine it came with. The engine has a Vengeance three-blade propeller (that may or may not have come standard with the boat) and a whale tail that was added before I got it. With approximately 40-gallons of [fuel] and four average-sized adults (the ladies won't divulge their weights) I can blow everyone's hair back at just over 4o-MPH WOT in smooth conditions (SOG by GPS). We don't pull skiers or tubers, so I can't speak to performance when towing, but it sure leaps on plane in normal conditions.

Personally, I really like the layout of the older Dauntless, the classic lines, and its built-to-last construction makes it really solid in choppy conditions--plus the boat and trailer fit in my garage. My engine only has around 120-hours; I don't expect to replace it any time soon, but I would definitely go that route.

Tg196
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2016 6:33 pm
Location: Boston Mass.

Re: 2001 16 DAUNTLESS: Sell or Re-power

Postby Tg196 » Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:09 pm

All great points, very appreciated. I agree if I went the repower route. I'd be holding onto the boat for a long time. Can anyone tell me, what size shaft I'd need? Off season if I hold onto the boat I will take a closer look at the mounting and potential prop change. As for emissions it's not a concern, the boat stays on a mooring in Boston Harbor, it's only trailered twice a year. Thank you all for the input... decisions decisions.

number9
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:25 pm

Re: 2001 16 DAUNTLESS: Sell or Re-power

Postby number9 » Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:05 pm

the boat stays on a mooring in Boston Harbor
Bottom paint will reduce your WOT speed some but not down to what you reported. What's your RPM at WOT? If not near recommended it would indicate rigging or engine problems. Others are reporting 40+ speeds with 115hp and I would think you should be in at least in the mid 30s with the 90hp, a mounting height adjustment and possibly better prop if all else is in order.
......

rsantiago
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:33 pm

Re: 2001 16 DAUNTLESS: Sell or Re-power

Postby rsantiago » Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:33 pm

I have a 2001 Dauntless with a Yamaha F100 engine with 1800 hours on it and can reach 37 mph at 6000 rpm with a 17 pitch prop.
I believe your boat should have similar results as the Mercury 90 hp share some commonality with the Yamaha engine of the same era.
I too have struggled with the idea of upsizing but cannot come to terms with selling my boat. It has served me well for 16 years and the boat is in great shape. If I had to, I would re-engine. For me it's definitely emotional.

Tg196
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2016 6:33 pm
Location: Boston Mass.

Re: 2001 16 DAUNTLESS: Sell or Re-power

Postby Tg196 » Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:18 pm

The boat bas bottom paint and has been in the water since early May. I use it frequently, every three or fours days. But I'm certain it's due for a haul out and cleaning. Top speed today was 25-MPH and engine maximum was 5,000-RPM. A nearby dealer has a leftover 115 with a 20-inch shaft. Installed he's quoted me a good number. Again, should I decide to go that route, she will be with me for a long time.

User avatar
Phil T
Posts: 1048
Joined: Thu Oct 22, 2015 6:08 pm
Location: Was Maine, now Kentucky
Contact:

Re: 2001 16 DAUNTLESS: Sell or Re-power

Postby Phil T » Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:52 pm

Something is horribly wrong with the engine/prop for that performance. There is no such thing as a stock prop.

Spend the money on a tuneup, new stainless steel prop. $1500 is better than $7-12,000 for a new motor.
Member since 2003
1992 Outrage 17, 1992 Evinrude 115

User avatar
GoldenDaze
Posts: 87
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:52 pm
Location: Virginia

Re: 2001 16 DAUNTLESS: Sell or Re-power

Postby GoldenDaze » Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:22 pm

I agree that your top speed seems unusually low. My 2003 Dauntless 160 will make about 42-43 mph with its original Mercury 115 4-stroke using a 4-blade 17" Trophy Plus. Top speed with the original prop, a 16" 3-blade Vengeance, was about 2 mph higher but its acceleration was relatively poor.

Thinking back to various discussions on the old forum, I believe the typical top speeds for the same boat with 90 hp engines was about 37-39 mph. A top speed below 30 mph is clearly indicating some problem with the engine or propeller. Perhaps the engine is not firing on all cylinders, or the prop is under-pitched, or the prop hub is slipping. Any one of those things can probably be fixed. If the engine turns out to be beyond economical repair, then yes, I'd absolutely replace it with a 115 hp, and I'd look for the lightest engine available since the boat tends to be stern-heavy, especially with 45 gallons of fuel in the tank.
2003 160 Dauntless Golden Daze

Tg196
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2016 6:33 pm
Location: Boston Mass.

Re: 2001 16 DAUNTLESS: Sell or Re-power

Postby Tg196 » Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:28 pm

Boat seems to run flawless, motor positioning may be a start. 5 holes, mine is second from the top. So between motor positioning and prop replacement perhaps I can pick up more speed and rpm?

User avatar
GoldenDaze
Posts: 87
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:52 pm
Location: Virginia

Re: 2001 16 DAUNTLESS: Sell or Re-power

Postby GoldenDaze » Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:15 pm

I went back through your prior posts, but I can't find anywhere where you've said whether you have the 90 2-stroke or the 90 4-stroke (or specifically what propeller you have). In 2001 the 90 4-stroke was a carburetor-fed engine, and a little searching (particularly in the old forum) will turn up a lot of stories about that. If you have the 4-stroke, then I still wonder whether you are running on all cylinders at speed. The 90 2-stroke I'm afraid I'm not familiar with.

Another possibility is whether your tachometer is correct. I've had an on-again-off-again problem that causes my tach to read about 30% too high (that is, when the engine is actually turning 3200 rpm, the tach will read about 4000 rpm). Usually a bit of back-and-forth twist on the cylinders setting screw on the back of the tach fixes it; seems like it's just a dirty contact.

While this might be a dumb suggestion, I wonder whether you are limiting your throttle setting based on your tachometer reading (rather than actually opening up the throttle) but your engine isn't turning up the speed that you think it is. If you thought you were running at 5000 rpm, but it's really 3800 rpm, well, 25 mph is not unreasonable for 3800 rpm with that engine.

-Bob
2003 160 Dauntless Golden Daze

Tg196
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2016 6:33 pm
Location: Boston Mass.

Re: 2001 16 DAUNTLESS: Sell or Re-power

Postby Tg196 » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:24 pm

Great points Bob, it's a 2001 90 Merc 2 stroke... again I have zero indications that the motor is running poorly. I use it frequently. I know literally zero about props and pitch I'm still torn on wether to sell or hold onto it. If it stays I will certainly start with addressing the prop. And then motor placement. Still wondering about motor shaft size if I went the re-power route. Would a 20" shaft be the correct size?

Ridge Runner
Posts: 191
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2015 12:12 pm
Location: Matawan NJ / Punta Gorda FL

Re: 2001 16 DAUNTLESS: Sell or Re-power

Postby Ridge Runner » Sun Jul 30, 2017 11:05 pm

That Mercury 90-HP ELPTO two cycle is a work horse.

General Specifications on Mercury 2001 90hp 2 stroke:
Full throttle rpm range: 5000-5500
Number of cylinders: 3
Piston Displacement: 84.57 cu. in. (1385.8cc)
Cylinder Bore: 3.500 in. (88.9mm)
Stroke: same 2.930 in. (74mm)
Gear Ratio: 2.3:1
Weight: 303lbs

At 303lbs your current Mercury 90 is a strong light weight engine with very good torque (the Mercury 90 two-cycle is reported to be in the 100hp range). That engine is still sold outside the US: https://www.mercurymarine.com/en-gb/au/ ... /40-90-hp/ (click on the continue to Australia / New Zealand - Australia site).

Merc 90.JPG
Merc 90.JPG (76.03 KiB) Viewed 6790 times


Personally, I would not re-power with anything but the Evinrude E-TEC 115HO (~127hp) - which is a V4 and weights in at 390lbs. You would need to check if 90 more pounds on the transom will put the scuppers under-water.

You don't mention the brand and model of the left-over 115hp engine that your dealer has. Check the specifications of that motor as weight will be a problem.

Based on the performance you stated "25-MPH and engine maximum was 5,000-RPM" there is something very wrong. When that boat was new the performance reports with the Mercury two-cycle 90HP, reported a top speed of ~39 MPH with a tendency to run bow high until about 3,000rpm's.

First you can push another 500RPM's out of the engine - check the propeller. How is the hole shot and time to plane? Have you ever had the hull weighted (dry weight was specified at 1,300lbs)? You may have a water logged hull. Bottom paint wont effect your speed by much, but heavy growth will. There is a lot of investigating I would do before I spent the money to re-power, re-powering may not fix the problem.
Member since 2005
2005 170 Montauk, 2010 E-TEC 115 H.O.
2016 210 Montauk, 2017 E-TEC G2 200 H.O.

"Red sky at night, sailor’s delight - Red sky in the morning, sailor’s warning”

Jefecinco
Posts: 966
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2015 6:35 pm
Location: Gulf Shores, AL

Re: 2001 16 DAUNTLESS: Sell or Re-power

Postby Jefecinco » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:10 am

I suggest that rather than starting with finding the optimum propeller, with the expense that entails, that you first work with a better engine mounting height which is virtually free of cost except for some caulk for the mounting bolts. Once you have (probably) raised the engine and made a few test runs you may find your existing propeller is a good fit.

I believe it's important to ensure a couple of things before doing anything else. First I would eliminate any growth from the hull and then ensure the engine is in good tune. It may be time to decarbonize (sp?) the engine, particularly if it has never been done. That can improve performance more than a tune up.
Butch

User avatar
GoldenDaze
Posts: 87
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:52 pm
Location: Virginia

Re: 2001 16 DAUNTLESS: Sell or Re-power

Postby GoldenDaze » Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:22 pm

2003 160 Dauntless Golden Daze

User avatar
GoldenDaze
Posts: 87
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:52 pm
Location: Virginia

Re: 2001 16 DAUNTLESS: Sell or Re-power

Postby GoldenDaze » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:48 am

Earlier you asked about engine mounting height. My boat was delivered with the engine mounted all the way down on the transom [lowest possible position]. I first raised the engine by two holes [to two-holes-up], but found that while life was great in a straight line, the propeller would ventilate in turns. I settled on one-hole-up from the lowest position, and have been running like that for years now. The stainless four-blade is very happy at this height, though my aluminum Black Max will still occasionally ventilate, and has a hard time shaking off the air.
2003 160 Dauntless Golden Daze

rsantiago
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:33 pm

Re: 2001 16 DAUNTLESS: Sell or Re-power

Postby rsantiago » Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:43 pm

I just re-powered my 2001 Dauntless 16 with a Yamaha F115B four-stroke-power-cycle engine. After 16 years and 1,80-hours, my old Yamaha F100 could not hold compression in one cylinder and saltwater entered the engine. The oil was white and filled with sludge.

The new engine cost $10,000 (installed), and came with the three-plus-two-year warranty for a total of five years. I ran the boat with my old Yamaha 13×17 prop, but the boat ran too bow high with the new engine and water would come over the transom before the boat reached plane. I put on a Solas Titan 4 13.25 x 15 propeller, and the boat planed quickly with no water over the transom. It was too rough to run full power, but I'll try to post some numbers in the performance section in a week or so. Top speed with the old propeller on the 115 was 39.2-MPH SOG by GPS at 6,000-RPM.

Tg196
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2016 6:33 pm
Location: Boston Mass.

Re: 2001 16 DAUNTLESS: Sell or Re-power

Postby Tg196 » Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:42 pm

Thanks for everything, I decided on selling the Dauntless... hope I don't regret this. As seen in my recent post on the GAM I'm currently looking at a 04 Nantucket

Jefecinco
Posts: 966
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2015 6:35 pm
Location: Gulf Shores, AL

Re: 2001 16 DAUNTLESS: Sell or Re-power

Postby Jefecinco » Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:18 am

Moving from the Dauntless 16 to a 190 Nantucket is a considerable change. We went from our 16 to a 190 Montauk, not quite the same but in terms of overall size very similar.

I've found launching, retrieving, docking and maneuvering around tight spots to require much more effort although the hydraulic steering is a big help. The first time you wash and wax the Nantucket you'll realize exactly how much bigger boat you are dealing with. Single handed launching and retrieving is at least twice the effort because of the size and windage of the larger boat. Depending on your storage options costs may be higher. The same may apply to insurance.

Having covered what I believe are most of the negatives of moving up in size there are plenty of positives. I like the relatively vast open spaces of the Montauk. The boat will comfortably accommodate four anglers or six adult occupants. I can't say the ride is better but the performance is certainly vastly improved.

Enjoy that new Outrage, oops, Nantucket.
Butch