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Author Topic:   1976 Outrage 21'

Mike Farnell posted 09-18-2000 08:21 PM ET (US)
I just happened upon two 1976 Outrage 21's for sale. Prices seem a bit high. Both have late model motors (1984 185 hp (rebuilt)(asking $12,500) and 1993 120hp (asking $17,500)) used in salt water. Gel coat and transoms look to be in good shape with little or no stress cracks. Teak is in horrible shape from sun and little or no maintenance. These boats could use some touch up work, but I do not see any major problems.
Any assistance on the following questions would be greatly appreciated:
1. Any recommendations on the asking prices? Again, these seem a bit high, even to a dealer I asked about them.
2. One of the boats has a "green slime" or algae like substance growing on the gas tank that is visible on under the hatch that displays the gas guage under the seat. Is this a sign of corrosion or rot or something I should be worried about?
3. While I do not expect this to be a true flats boat, I expect to use the 21' for ferrying me and my companions to wadefishing spots and offshore fishing on good days. Does anyone know how much water these boats draw and how they handle in rough water?
4. Does anyone have experience with jackplates on a boat like this? This would help with navigating, generally at slow speeds, to wadefishing spots.
5.
dfmcintyre posted 09-18-2000 08:44 PM ET (US)
Mike -
1 - It's hard to figure a price on something that old, without knowing alot more about the condition. Be VERY CAREFUL about checking the transom for ANY evidence of dry rot. I ended up replacing my transom, for about $4700.
The 76/84 seems about 3500 high, and the 76/93 is (IMO) about 5000 high, assuming no trailer, minimal options (canvas, electronics, seating/cushions) and salt water use. The final price is going to depend on how well the boats were maintained. The wiring is probably in need of replacement.
2 - The slime is due to water entering into that space between the top of the tank, and the covering plate/floor. There is about a 1 - 1.5 inch void there. If the boats have been in mostly salt water during their live, it's a reasonable assumption to plan on a tank replacement. BTDT, and Florida Tank still will make one, my invoice ran $260 from July of last year. Its a time consuming, but not difficult task to do. At the same time, replace the fuel lines.
3 - Ride.....hmmmm. Better than the 17' hull, not as smooth as a 20' and up (some will argue that she's not as smooth as the 18'). But the advantage is one that, with minimal options, can weigh empty at under 2000lbs, and can idle with motor tilted in 12" of water with no problem.
4 - I'm considering a jackplate as a winter project on mine, as my 200 Yamaha was delivered with the long shaft, and I'm about 3 - 4" too deep. It will currently run about 44-45 WOT. The short shaft would have been _too_ short. It's one of those "in-between" sized transoms. I'd probably order a short shaft and cut into the transom, if I had to do it over.
5 - I'd go for something between 180 and 200hp.
Best - Don
lhg posted 09-18-2000 10:17 PM ET (US)
Don: Just curious. You mention "short shaft" as prefered for your 21 Outrage. Could that possibly be? In the "old" days, that was a 15" shaft engine, and a "long" shaft was a 20" shaft. I would assume your "too long" Yamaha is a 25" shaft, called "Extra long"?
Actually, if I had your hull, I would do as you are saying, buy the extra long (25") engine, and raise it on a 12" setback, adjustable, jack plate. This will get the powerhead up nice and high, look great, and should enhance speed by 5 MPH, while improving ride and economy. I'd go for it!
After what you probably spent for the new engine, what's another $275!!!
Incidentally, really sorry that we missed you up at the Rendezvous. Was looking forward to meeting you and Walt, and families, and seeing your boats (of course!)
Clark Roberts posted 09-19-2000 07:58 AM ET (US)
I have a 21 Revenge (same hull as the Outrage) and am running a 135 hp Optimax Merc mounted on an 8" set-back "TH" manual jack plate.. the motor is a 20" shaft model and is raised about 4 inches. No problem with cavitation or ventilation....even in hard turns although some I use more "tuck-in" in really hard turns... The main purpose of the jack-plate (and doel-fin) is for shallow water performance which I must have due to the shallow waters (oyster bars, rocks, sand bars) that I must traverse to get to my dock!
I estimate that I can maintain planing speed in maybe 18" of water.. boat will run 45mph per gps at 5600 rpm and is propped with a 19" Quicksilver stainless prop and will turn 5800 at WOT and full trim-out.. I run it at about 3500 rpm at cruise (28 mph) although there is a really sweet spot at 4200.... I try to hold it down mostly because of the 30 mph speed limits on our county's waters... real bummer...!!! This is the third motor I have had on this hull. First was a 200 Merc, a rocket ship well over 50mph, second was a 90hp Merc... good performance at 36mph WOT and great handling... But the Optimax is the real jewell... fast and fuel economy is wonderful... As to price of the hulls you mention, they seem high... but they don't make these babies any more.. As to handling, the 21 does NOT ride as smoothly as the 18'6" Whaler.... that's the penalty for the shallow draft... but it rides very, very good once you get the right speed for the conditions... I would like to have a 21 Outrage as a companion for the Revenge but just don't have enough room at my dock right now!!!!!! Happy Whalin', Clark.. Spruce Creek Navy
tbirdsey posted 09-19-2000 09:01 AM ET (US)
From what I have seen on various used boat websites, the prices you mentioned are a bit high. For example: http://classifiedsy2k.com/cgi-win/shoboat.exe/
They are beautiful boats; I ran across one in mint condition on Lake Winnepasaukee this summer and really wanted it!!
tbirdsey posted 09-19-2000 09:08 AM ET (US)
May have to try this, Mike: http://classifiedsy2k.com/cgi-win/selboat.exe/
lhg posted 09-19-2000 12:59 PM ET (US)
First of all, I think we need to get Clark and Don together for a Rendezvous so we, and they, can compare and appreciate the Original Outrage/Revenge 21' hulls, dating to 1971.
Sounds like that Merc Optimax is one strong engine for a mere 135 HP, especially when set up correctly! This is SO important with outboards on Whalers, and many are not done right by the Dealers. I'll bet the factory is now doing a better job with the "packaged" rigs.
Incidentally, for those in the market for a 200 HP engine, I recently discovered that the Mercury 200 Optimax is the the most powerful 200 out there, period, looking at the weight/speed/prop charts. This thing will walk away from Merc's regular 2 stroke 200 HP EFI, which itself will outrun most other 200's. Reason? It's built on Merc's 3.0 litre block (250HP regular 2 stoke) instead of the 2.5 litre used for the 200 EFI. But it's heavy at 560#. So if you have a "need for clean speed" in the 200 range, look at this one.
dfmcintyre posted 09-19-2000 08:53 PM ET (US)
Larry -
I'll measure the transom and let you know what our situation was (is). I'm not real convinced that I really need to go with a setback _plus_ raising it. There is a guy who could fabricate up a stainless steel bracket here locally (Hey Clark, did Barry do a decent job on the brackets for the aux tanks?) if I go just the jack plate type bracket.
I had looked at the Merc 200Opti and almost went that route, however the Yamaha came out of Florida (Salt water series) still in it's crate from an auction and was _well_ below dealers invoice, so it was impossible to turn down. That would have weighed another 175-200lbs (I think).
Are you looking to repower with two of those? You'd _really_ look stern heavy.
Don
Clark Roberts posted 09-19-2000 10:19 PM ET (US)
Don, those 18 gal saddle tanks you sold me are great!!! And those ss brackets are works of art... wow.. it took me about a week to install those babies,,, close fit for everything.. but now with 40 gals under the deck and 38 gals in the aux tanks my range is incredible... 5mpg average and 78 gals... you do the math... wow... couldn't be happier... Larry, the 135 feels like a 200 .. almost, and is based on the 2.5L block. It pulls very strong mid to upper range! There is a 22 Revenge (1988) Walk-through/Whaler Drive with a 2001 Merc Optimax 225 at my dock right now awaiting final rigging of instruments.. belongs to a very excited neighbor..!!! will report on sea trials when we fire her up... can't wait! Wish you guys were here!
lhg posted 09-20-2000 03:28 PM ET (US)
Don: Not planning to repower the 25!! The Merc 200EFI's are fabulous, extremely quiet & responsive engines, and compared to the 200 DFI's, light weight. I have already realized that the 25 wouldn't carry the extra weight of twin 200 optimax's very well, so if and when I have to deal with that situation, (hopefully not for a long time) I'd switch to the 150 Optimax's, similar to what Clark has.
In 1997, when I was forced (because of the theft of my previous 200's) to buy new engines, DFI's were not yet available, so I had to choose between Merc carb engines or fuel injected, which were an additional cost of about $1500 for the pair. So I asked one of the best merc mechanics I've ever known, at this Dealership, what he thought about EFI, and he said "once they (EFI engines) go out of here, we never see them again". So I went EFI. He was right! These things just run and run. All I have to do is change the plugs and gear oil. I would imagine the same goes for the DFI Optimax models.
Clark: 22 Revenge Whaler drive - wow - nice boat. Since the Whaler drive was designed for twin 25" engines, did he have get the 225 Optimax in the XXL shaft (30")? That boat's going to run around 50. Get JimH a picture of that one.

Clark Roberts posted 09-20-2000 04:09 PM ET (US)
Larry, the 22 Revenge WT/WD had a 225 OMC 25" shaft on it and ran with good traction etc... so an XL (25" shaft) Merc was ordered. Looks to be perfect as the WD provides a step-up in the bottom and a flat pad at center stern... since the 225 OMC was ok this should be also... David Day, the neighbor/owner checked with Whaler and Merc before ordering motor and they recommended the 25" shaft... This WD was set up at factory for single engine and had no center rod! Just to get some emperical data, I ran it hard for a week with the 225 OMC and am convicned the shaft length is correct at 25 inches... David plans on a power jack plate later on (a TH Hi-Jacker, parallelogram linkage) so he can hellicopter the flats.... we have discussed mounting it about an inch low so we can lower it an inch and raise it 4-5 inches from the present location... also we plan to put two bolts in the top mounting holes instead of the single bolt at top on each side... just seems the thing to do with a 500# plus engine with that enormous power!! Again, my throttle hand is itching!! Pass the spam... Clark... Spruce Creek Navy
outrage posted 09-28-2000 10:51 AM ET (US)
You should consider yourself fortunate that you found (2) 21' outrages for sale. I have had a hard time finding one. As for the price, if the boats are in structurally good shape then they might be worth it. Do you have any other 21' outrages to compare the price to that are for sale. These boats are hard to find. As for the teak, it is easily fixed. AS long as the wood is not rotten you can simply sand it and re-oil. Teak is a very forgiving wood. If you don't want to make a run at these boats, let me know. I have friends who are dying to buy one.
Reliant posted 09-28-2000 11:55 AM ET (US)
I agree with outraged. These are great boats and respond very well to restoration. Check the drain tubes very carfully to make sure they are not rotten and inspect the hull around the drain tubes to be sure that water getting into the hull has not started to seperate the gelcoat from the foam.
Mike Farnell posted 09-28-2000 12:06 PM ET (US)
Call (979) 245-3304 (Bay City, Texas). Both boats are located in Galveston, Texas in the Sea Isle subdivision. The person at this phone number owns one of the boats discussed above and his father owns the second. The father replaced the 21' with a 25' Whaler.

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Author	Topic: 1976 Outrage 21'
Mike Farnell	posted 09-18-2000 08:21 PM ET (US) I just happened upon two 1976 Outrage 21's for sale. Prices seem a bit high. Both have late model motors (1984 185 hp (rebuilt)(asking $12,500) and 1993 120hp (asking $17,500)) used in salt water. Gel coat and transoms look to be in good shape with little or no stress cracks. Teak is in horrible shape from sun and little or no maintenance. These boats could use some touch up work, but I do not see any major problems. Any assistance on the following questions would be greatly appreciated: 1. Any recommendations on the asking prices? Again, these seem a bit high, even to a dealer I asked about them. 2. One of the boats has a "green slime" or algae like substance growing on the gas tank that is visible on under the hatch that displays the gas guage under the seat. Is this a sign of corrosion or rot or something I should be worried about? 3. While I do not expect this to be a true flats boat, I expect to use the 21' for ferrying me and my companions to wadefishing spots and offshore fishing on good days. Does anyone know how much water these boats draw and how they handle in rough water? 4. Does anyone have experience with jackplates on a boat like this? This would help with navigating, generally at slow speeds, to wadefishing spots. 5.
dfmcintyre	posted 09-18-2000 08:44 PM ET (US) Mike - 1 - It's hard to figure a price on something that old, without knowing alot more about the condition. Be VERY CAREFUL about checking the transom for ANY evidence of dry rot. I ended up replacing my transom, for about $4700. The 76/84 seems about 3500 high, and the 76/93 is (IMO) about 5000 high, assuming no trailer, minimal options (canvas, electronics, seating/cushions) and salt water use. The final price is going to depend on how well the boats were maintained. The wiring is probably in need of replacement. 2 - The slime is due to water entering into that space between the top of the tank, and the covering plate/floor. There is about a 1 - 1.5 inch void there. If the boats have been in mostly salt water during their live, it's a reasonable assumption to plan on a tank replacement. BTDT, and Florida Tank still will make one, my invoice ran $260 from July of last year. Its a time consuming, but not difficult task to do. At the same time, replace the fuel lines. 3 - Ride.....hmmmm. Better than the 17' hull, not as smooth as a 20' and up (some will argue that she's not as smooth as the 18'). But the advantage is one that, with minimal options, can weigh empty at under 2000lbs, and can idle with motor tilted in 12" of water with no problem. 4 - I'm considering a jackplate as a winter project on mine, as my 200 Yamaha was delivered with the long shaft, and I'm about 3 - 4" too deep. It will currently run about 44-45 WOT. The short shaft would have been _too_ short. It's one of those "in-between" sized transoms. I'd probably order a short shaft and cut into the transom, if I had to do it over. 5 - I'd go for something between 180 and 200hp. Best - Don
lhg	posted 09-18-2000 10:17 PM ET (US) Don: Just curious. You mention "short shaft" as prefered for your 21 Outrage. Could that possibly be? In the "old" days, that was a 15" shaft engine, and a "long" shaft was a 20" shaft. I would assume your "too long" Yamaha is a 25" shaft, called "Extra long"? Actually, if I had your hull, I would do as you are saying, buy the extra long (25") engine, and raise it on a 12" setback, adjustable, jack plate. This will get the powerhead up nice and high, look great, and should enhance speed by 5 MPH, while improving ride and economy. I'd go for it! After what you probably spent for the new engine, what's another $275!!! Incidentally, really sorry that we missed you up at the Rendezvous. Was looking forward to meeting you and Walt, and families, and seeing your boats (of course!)
Clark Roberts	posted 09-19-2000 07:58 AM ET (US) I have a 21 Revenge (same hull as the Outrage) and am running a 135 hp Optimax Merc mounted on an 8" set-back "TH" manual jack plate.. the motor is a 20" shaft model and is raised about 4 inches. No problem with cavitation or ventilation....even in hard turns although some I use more "tuck-in" in really hard turns... The main purpose of the jack-plate (and doel-fin) is for shallow water performance which I must have due to the shallow waters (oyster bars, rocks, sand bars) that I must traverse to get to my dock! I estimate that I can maintain planing speed in maybe 18" of water.. boat will run 45mph per gps at 5600 rpm and is propped with a 19" Quicksilver stainless prop and will turn 5800 at WOT and full trim-out.. I run it at about 3500 rpm at cruise (28 mph) although there is a really sweet spot at 4200.... I try to hold it down mostly because of the 30 mph speed limits on our county's waters... real bummer...!!! This is the third motor I have had on this hull. First was a 200 Merc, a rocket ship well over 50mph, second was a 90hp Merc... good performance at 36mph WOT and great handling... But the Optimax is the real jewell... fast and fuel economy is wonderful... As to price of the hulls you mention, they seem high... but they don't make these babies any more.. As to handling, the 21 does NOT ride as smoothly as the 18'6" Whaler.... that's the penalty for the shallow draft... but it rides very, very good once you get the right speed for the conditions... I would like to have a 21 Outrage as a companion for the Revenge but just don't have enough room at my dock right now!!!!!! Happy Whalin', Clark.. Spruce Creek Navy
tbirdsey	posted 09-19-2000 09:01 AM ET (US) From what I have seen on various used boat websites, the prices you mentioned are a bit high. For example: http://classifiedsy2k.com/cgi-win/shoboat.exe/ They are beautiful boats; I ran across one in mint condition on Lake Winnepasaukee this summer and really wanted it!!
tbirdsey	posted 09-19-2000 09:08 AM ET (US) May have to try this, Mike: http://classifiedsy2k.com/cgi-win/selboat.exe/
lhg	posted 09-19-2000 12:59 PM ET (US) First of all, I think we need to get Clark and Don together for a Rendezvous so we, and they, can compare and appreciate the Original Outrage/Revenge 21' hulls, dating to 1971. Sounds like that Merc Optimax is one strong engine for a mere 135 HP, especially when set up correctly! This is SO important with outboards on Whalers, and many are not done right by the Dealers. I'll bet the factory is now doing a better job with the "packaged" rigs. Incidentally, for those in the market for a 200 HP engine, I recently discovered that the Mercury 200 Optimax is the the most powerful 200 out there, period, looking at the weight/speed/prop charts. This thing will walk away from Merc's regular 2 stroke 200 HP EFI, which itself will outrun most other 200's. Reason? It's built on Merc's 3.0 litre block (250HP regular 2 stoke) instead of the 2.5 litre used for the 200 EFI. But it's heavy at 560#. So if you have a "need for clean speed" in the 200 range, look at this one.
dfmcintyre	posted 09-19-2000 08:53 PM ET (US) Larry - I'll measure the transom and let you know what our situation was (is). I'm not real convinced that I really need to go with a setback _plus_ raising it. There is a guy who could fabricate up a stainless steel bracket here locally (Hey Clark, did Barry do a decent job on the brackets for the aux tanks?) if I go just the jack plate type bracket. I had looked at the Merc 200Opti and almost went that route, however the Yamaha came out of Florida (Salt water series) still in it's crate from an auction and was _well_ below dealers invoice, so it was impossible to turn down. That would have weighed another 175-200lbs (I think). Are you looking to repower with two of those? You'd _really_ look stern heavy. Don
Clark Roberts	posted 09-19-2000 10:19 PM ET (US) Don, those 18 gal saddle tanks you sold me are great!!! And those ss brackets are works of art... wow.. it took me about a week to install those babies,,, close fit for everything.. but now with 40 gals under the deck and 38 gals in the aux tanks my range is incredible... 5mpg average and 78 gals... you do the math... wow... couldn't be happier... Larry, the 135 feels like a 200 .. almost, and is based on the 2.5L block. It pulls very strong mid to upper range! There is a 22 Revenge (1988) Walk-through/Whaler Drive with a 2001 Merc Optimax 225 at my dock right now awaiting final rigging of instruments.. belongs to a very excited neighbor..!!! will report on sea trials when we fire her up... can't wait! Wish you guys were here!
lhg	posted 09-20-2000 03:28 PM ET (US) Don: Not planning to repower the 25!! The Merc 200EFI's are fabulous, extremely quiet & responsive engines, and compared to the 200 DFI's, light weight. I have already realized that the 25 wouldn't carry the extra weight of twin 200 optimax's very well, so if and when I have to deal with that situation, (hopefully not for a long time) I'd switch to the 150 Optimax's, similar to what Clark has. In 1997, when I was forced (because of the theft of my previous 200's) to buy new engines, DFI's were not yet available, so I had to choose between Merc carb engines or fuel injected, which were an additional cost of about $1500 for the pair. So I asked one of the best merc mechanics I've ever known, at this Dealership, what he thought about EFI, and he said "once they (EFI engines) go out of here, we never see them again". So I went EFI. He was right! These things just run and run. All I have to do is change the plugs and gear oil. I would imagine the same goes for the DFI Optimax models. Clark: 22 Revenge Whaler drive - wow - nice boat. Since the Whaler drive was designed for twin 25" engines, did he have get the 225 Optimax in the XXL shaft (30")? That boat's going to run around 50. Get JimH a picture of that one.
Clark Roberts	posted 09-20-2000 04:09 PM ET (US) Larry, the 22 Revenge WT/WD had a 225 OMC 25" shaft on it and ran with good traction etc... so an XL (25" shaft) Merc was ordered. Looks to be perfect as the WD provides a step-up in the bottom and a flat pad at center stern... since the 225 OMC was ok this should be also... David Day, the neighbor/owner checked with Whaler and Merc before ordering motor and they recommended the 25" shaft... This WD was set up at factory for single engine and had no center rod! Just to get some emperical data, I ran it hard for a week with the 225 OMC and am convicned the shaft length is correct at 25 inches... David plans on a power jack plate later on (a TH Hi-Jacker, parallelogram linkage) so he can hellicopter the flats.... we have discussed mounting it about an inch low so we can lower it an inch and raise it 4-5 inches from the present location... also we plan to put two bolts in the top mounting holes instead of the single bolt at top on each side... just seems the thing to do with a 500# plus engine with that enormous power!! Again, my throttle hand is itching!! Pass the spam... Clark... Spruce Creek Navy
outrage	posted 09-28-2000 10:51 AM ET (US) You should consider yourself fortunate that you found (2) 21' outrages for sale. I have had a hard time finding one. As for the price, if the boats are in structurally good shape then they might be worth it. Do you have any other 21' outrages to compare the price to that are for sale. These boats are hard to find. As for the teak, it is easily fixed. AS long as the wood is not rotten you can simply sand it and re-oil. Teak is a very forgiving wood. If you don't want to make a run at these boats, let me know. I have friends who are dying to buy one.
Reliant	posted 09-28-2000 11:55 AM ET (US) I agree with outraged. These are great boats and respond very well to restoration. Check the drain tubes very carfully to make sure they are not rotten and inspect the hull around the drain tubes to be sure that water getting into the hull has not started to seperate the gelcoat from the foam.
Mike Farnell	posted 09-28-2000 12:06 PM ET (US) Call (979) 245-3304 (Bay City, Texas). Both boats are located in Galveston, Texas in the Sea Isle subdivision. The person at this phone number owns one of the boats discussed above and his father owns the second. The father replaced the 21' with a 25' Whaler.