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Author Topic:   Where to go for a "New" Classic Whaler

hauptjm posted 04-03-2001 03:48 PM ET (US)
Not trying to stir any controversies, but I couldn't help but put this site up for discussion. Brunswick is doing a fantastic job of making and selling the new Whalers. I would never argue otherwise. This site just offers a way for someone to buy a Dougherty hull when the commercial division eventually stops selling the 19ft. Guardian.
http://www.ewboats.com/185cc.html
Of course, there are 20ft. and larger versions as well as some of the smaller class yachts.

dgp posted 04-03-2001 04:04 PM ET (US)
18 months ago I took a serious look at the Edgewater boats and was very disappointed by their poor QC. I saw incomplete caulking jobs, rusting screws and peeling graphics all in the dealer's inventory. In addition, the prices with Yamaha power were priced higher the Whalers.
I knew I wanted a Montauk but had to look at EWs just to be sure. Don
blackdog posted 04-03-2001 04:52 PM ET (US)
I too did not think the quality was great. Rust on hardware. Rub rail looked cheap, well just not a Whaler I guess.
Blackdog
B Bear posted 04-03-2001 05:19 PM ET (US)
It almost looks like my 16 Dauntless V hull and all......
lhg posted 04-03-2001 05:53 PM ET (US)
I don't see why you guys are so hard on the Dougherty Edgewaters. You've got to remember these hulls were designed under a non-compete and copywrite restriction from BW. I think he did a good job. They look more like Whalers when seen on the water than the new ones do! A lot of ex-Whaler owners have moved over to these, like it or not.
A few years ago they were saying they were selling more boats than BW was! I'll bet a huge proportion of their total sales have come at the expense of Boston Whaler. Put a Whaler logo decal ON one of these, and a lot of people would be fooled. Take a Whaler logo decal OFF a current Whaler, and a lot of people wouldn't know what kind of boat it was! (13 Sport and Montauk being an exception)
A friend knows the guy that currently owns the Company, and he tells me Dougherty has sold out, and is working on a new line of boats. Should be interesting to see what he does. He could now be free of Whaler's design restrictions.
B Bear posted 04-03-2001 07:21 PM ET (US)
Larry,
I feel your wrong about taking off the logo and not being able to tell what kind of boat a new whaler is. As far as that goes alot of people don't know that a 13 Sport or a 17 Montauk are Boston Whalers. That 18 looks very much like th 16 Dauntless and if that is where the Dougherty hulls were to evolve into then the new Whalers are not far off the mark.
Those guys were just giving their honest opinon about Edgewater as you and other members have given yours about the new Whalers.
Bob
whalernut posted 04-03-2001 07:33 PM ET (US)
I have never seen an Edgewater boat up close, but if they look anything like the one in the picture, with High Quality?(people are saying they aren`t), I would buy one of those over a Whaler! Looks alot more like a Classic Whaler than a New Whaler does. I too have heard Daugherty has moved on, and some of the New Edgewater designs reflect this with the deeper V they have. I am excited to see what Daugherty puts out next, hopefully the Whaler restrictions are taken off of his design table and he puts out a true Classic Whaler(Replica). Who knows whats to be, he may make a totally different design to put his trademark on? It does kind of baffle me why he sold out Edgewater already, anyone know? Regards-Jack Graner.
Whaler15 posted 04-03-2001 09:06 PM ET (US)
Granted, these hull designs are appealing and it would be nice to own a new Doherty design but if they are as good as the classics, why are the specs so limited? Why is the swamped capacity not listed? To me, the safety aspect was one of the strongest selling points of the BW classics. I don't see that here.
B Bear posted 04-03-2001 09:12 PM ET (US)
Jack
Thank you for making my point by airing your honest opinon. I have checked Edgewater out up close before buying my new Whaler and I was not that impressed. It is intersting that you can dislike new whalers so much that you would rather buy a boat you have never really looked at, just on it's lines.
A Mckee looks like a classic 13. There are plenty of clones out there.
Boston Whaler still makes a unique high quality product and for those boaters that know boats they will always recongnize a Boston Whaler. I am sure you could spot a new whaler.
May-be you and I can have an Amstel lite (I'm sure that is your brand of beer) together someday.
Bob

lhg posted 04-03-2001 09:25 PM ET (US)
Whaler 15 - You are right that all Whalers are in a class by themselves when it comes to unsinkability. Every other brand of boat is at least a notch down in that category, including the Edgewaters. But I do believe they were designed, using Dougherty's 30 year experience designing Whalers, to be as unskinkable as possible (they have a foamed floor stringer design) considering probable constraints placed on him against duplicating Whalers foamed hull process.
Incidentally, while reading a cruising guide on the British Columbia shore last night, I came across a story where an 11' Whaler tender saved two people and a dog when their 40' crusier sank in the Strait of Juan de Fuca. The Whaler filled up with water but stayed upright & floated until rescued.
jasonng posted 04-03-2001 10:26 PM ET (US)
Everyone checkout the 2001 Edgewater boats. These boats have a few things upgraded and look very very nice. However, I still think they builded a notch below the current whalers. But Whalers do cost more money. The current Edgewater definitely builded as good as or above the current Seacraft, Mako, Grady White, Key West, Proline, Scout, and Parker boats which are the same class. Also, The old Whalers one cannot install a backing plate and if water get into the foam the boat become heavier not with Edgewater. I believe 2001 Edgewater boats look and build excellent, safe and cheaper than the Whalers, Contender, Grady White, and Regulator.
B Bear posted 04-03-2001 10:27 PM ET (US)
Larry,
I 100% in agreement with you here.
I wouldn't mind sharing a beer with you either.
Bob
Shadowcatcher posted 04-03-2001 11:26 PM ET (US)
I have never seen any indication that the bonded foam construction of Boston Whaler was actually patented. So even if he had to make the boats look different, why couldn't they use the same construction?
--Brian
jimh posted 04-04-2001 12:44 AM ET (US)
The Edgewater construction method is to start with a pre-shaped foam structure and bond the hull and deck to it.
The Whaler construction method is to build a hollow boat structure and fill it with foam.
The difference, according to Edgewater, is that you get a stronger bond by applying wet resin to cured foam than you get by applying wet foam to cured (or curing) resin.
Also, the Edgewater construction uses stringers and other laminated reinforcements inside the hull, where the Whaler hull has no interior structural members (like stringers or frames), but relies on the uni-bond structure of the whole boat to create the strength.
I have only seen one Edgewater up close and I did not really give it the once-over for quality of hardware, etc., so I cannot comment on the comparative quality.
whalernut posted 04-04-2001 05:32 AM ET (US)
Bob, I guess I wasn`t clear on my buying a new Edgewater. I would never buy one unless I gave it the 3rd degree. I like the shape of the Edgewater, but want Whaler quality, or very close to it. Like I said I am curious and a little excited to see what Daugherty puts out next and having that beer with all of you! Regards-Jack Graner. P.S. Does anyone know why Daugherty parted ways with Edgewater?
Dan posted 04-04-2001 09:08 AM ET (US)
I copied this info from the link to the Edgewater website because it is almost exactly the same as my Boston Whaler 1999 17' Outrage.
Variable deadrise "V" hull. Unsinkable
Length: 18'6"/5.7m (Outrage 17'6")
Beam: 7'4"/2.3m (Outrage 7')
Dry Weight: 1750lbs./795kg (Outrage 1700)
Draft: 13"/33cm (Outrage 12")
Transom Height: 25" Fuel Capacity: 56 gal./2121 (Outrage same)
Weight Capacity: 1400lbs (I think 2400)
Person Capacity: 7 (Outrage same)
Maximum HP: 150 (Outrage same)
Which boat would I rather have? A Whaler - of course!
reelescape1 posted 04-04-2001 11:57 AM ET (US)
I seriously looked at a 20 EW brand new at the local dealer here in SC a couple of years ago (98) I think. Poked my head in the fish box and looked up at the bottom of the deck to inspect what I was paying close to 30 K for....the floor was separating!!! This boat had never been in the water!!! It didn't even have a motor mounted on it!!! The dealers response " We can fix that for ya'"....I hope no-one got stuck with this boat!!! This isn't meant to slam EW, I was preparing to buy this boat for myself and this is a true account of what took place. I have serious reservations about their quality.
SuburbanBoy posted 04-04-2001 02:49 PM ET (US)
While on the topic of Whaler alternatives, has anyone had a sea trial in a new Logic boat? The hull material is inherently buoyant; they also have foam stringers, and some stainless backing plates for the misc. hardware. They also have a very tough hull (note the third link contains a picture of man with what appears to be a 12# sledge in full swing, beating on the hull). I inspected some Logic boats at a local dealer. They seemed to be weak in torsion (twisting). When I grabbed the handrail and pulled, the hull would twist more than my 15 striper/sport would. The non-gel material did seem to be an advantage. It would not crack or delaminate. But, it was not shiny like our gel coats. Again, the hull material itself is buoyant, another nice feature. They are not finished nearly as well as a current Whaler. Apparent potential, but not fully exploited yet.

Associated links:
http://www.logicboats.com/
http://www.logicboats.com/roplene.html
http://www.logicboats.com/factory.html
B Bear posted 04-04-2001 04:15 PM ET (US)
I had look at the Logic 17 a few years back and I checked them out again at the Seattle Boat show. They came come quite a ways from when I first saw them.
There are fine for basicly plastic boats, roplene I believe is what they call it. Quite tough, when I took a ride in a 13 the dealer rammed a bridge at a couple of knots and there was no damage. There had been some problems with getting the skin thickness even as they roll the mold. There was an issue about how hull repairs were to be made on them also, I think this had been resolved. And I guess One of the Biggest features is that the boat is recyclable.
To be honest I almost went for one til two of us got into a 17 next to the stern and water started to flood in over the engine cutout. I am sure it is unsinkable but does not have a great deal of capcity. As the Logic dealer told me "this would be a great first boat". In other words it would be fine to learn on since you could not hurt it.
B Bear posted 04-04-2001 04:26 PM ET (US)
I was correct the Logic 17 center console has the max weight cap of 1185 lb., that would include people, engine, gas, gear, everyting. Where my 16 Dauntless has the max weight cap of 1700 lb., that 600# difference is really quite a bit. I used these two models since these were the ones I looked at when I got ready to buy.
Bear
B Bear posted 04-04-2001 04:28 PM ET (US)
Dang can't do math today; I mean 515#.
SuburbanBoy posted 04-05-2001 02:03 PM ET (US)
So it would appear that the Logic hull could profit from a little more foam. Good thing you insisted on a sea trial! BTW, where did you find the Whalers total capacity? I always wondered what the total capacity of my 15' hull. It should be the same for all 15' hulls, correct?
lhg posted 04-05-2001 02:29 PM ET (US)
See the Reference section on this site.

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Author	Topic: Where to go for a "New" Classic Whaler
hauptjm	posted 04-03-2001 03:48 PM ET (US) Not trying to stir any controversies, but I couldn't help but put this site up for discussion. Brunswick is doing a fantastic job of making and selling the new Whalers. I would never argue otherwise. This site just offers a way for someone to buy a Dougherty hull when the commercial division eventually stops selling the 19ft. Guardian. http://www.ewboats.com/185cc.html Of course, there are 20ft. and larger versions as well as some of the smaller class yachts.
dgp	posted 04-03-2001 04:04 PM ET (US) 18 months ago I took a serious look at the Edgewater boats and was very disappointed by their poor QC. I saw incomplete caulking jobs, rusting screws and peeling graphics all in the dealer's inventory. In addition, the prices with Yamaha power were priced higher the Whalers. I knew I wanted a Montauk but had to look at EWs just to be sure. Don
blackdog	posted 04-03-2001 04:52 PM ET (US) I too did not think the quality was great. Rust on hardware. Rub rail looked cheap, well just not a Whaler I guess. Blackdog
B Bear	posted 04-03-2001 05:19 PM ET (US) It almost looks like my 16 Dauntless V hull and all......
lhg	posted 04-03-2001 05:53 PM ET (US) I don't see why you guys are so hard on the Dougherty Edgewaters. You've got to remember these hulls were designed under a non-compete and copywrite restriction from BW. I think he did a good job. They look more like Whalers when seen on the water than the new ones do! A lot of ex-Whaler owners have moved over to these, like it or not. A few years ago they were saying they were selling more boats than BW was! I'll bet a huge proportion of their total sales have come at the expense of Boston Whaler. Put a Whaler logo decal ON one of these, and a lot of people would be fooled. Take a Whaler logo decal OFF a current Whaler, and a lot of people wouldn't know what kind of boat it was! (13 Sport and Montauk being an exception) A friend knows the guy that currently owns the Company, and he tells me Dougherty has sold out, and is working on a new line of boats. Should be interesting to see what he does. He could now be free of Whaler's design restrictions.
B Bear	posted 04-03-2001 07:21 PM ET (US) Larry, I feel your wrong about taking off the logo and not being able to tell what kind of boat a new whaler is. As far as that goes alot of people don't know that a 13 Sport or a 17 Montauk are Boston Whalers. That 18 looks very much like th 16 Dauntless and if that is where the Dougherty hulls were to evolve into then the new Whalers are not far off the mark. Those guys were just giving their honest opinon about Edgewater as you and other members have given yours about the new Whalers. Bob
whalernut	posted 04-03-2001 07:33 PM ET (US) I have never seen an Edgewater boat up close, but if they look anything like the one in the picture, with High Quality?(people are saying they aren`t), I would buy one of those over a Whaler! Looks alot more like a Classic Whaler than a New Whaler does. I too have heard Daugherty has moved on, and some of the New Edgewater designs reflect this with the deeper V they have. I am excited to see what Daugherty puts out next, hopefully the Whaler restrictions are taken off of his design table and he puts out a true Classic Whaler(Replica). Who knows whats to be, he may make a totally different design to put his trademark on? It does kind of baffle me why he sold out Edgewater already, anyone know? Regards-Jack Graner.
Whaler15	posted 04-03-2001 09:06 PM ET (US) Granted, these hull designs are appealing and it would be nice to own a new Doherty design but if they are as good as the classics, why are the specs so limited? Why is the swamped capacity not listed? To me, the safety aspect was one of the strongest selling points of the BW classics. I don't see that here.
B Bear	posted 04-03-2001 09:12 PM ET (US) Jack Thank you for making my point by airing your honest opinon. I have checked Edgewater out up close before buying my new Whaler and I was not that impressed. It is intersting that you can dislike new whalers so much that you would rather buy a boat you have never really looked at, just on it's lines. A Mckee looks like a classic 13. There are plenty of clones out there. Boston Whaler still makes a unique high quality product and for those boaters that know boats they will always recongnize a Boston Whaler. I am sure you could spot a new whaler. May-be you and I can have an Amstel lite (I'm sure that is your brand of beer) together someday. Bob
lhg	posted 04-03-2001 09:25 PM ET (US) Whaler 15 - You are right that all Whalers are in a class by themselves when it comes to unsinkability. Every other brand of boat is at least a notch down in that category, including the Edgewaters. But I do believe they were designed, using Dougherty's 30 year experience designing Whalers, to be as unskinkable as possible (they have a foamed floor stringer design) considering probable constraints placed on him against duplicating Whalers foamed hull process. Incidentally, while reading a cruising guide on the British Columbia shore last night, I came across a story where an 11' Whaler tender saved two people and a dog when their 40' crusier sank in the Strait of Juan de Fuca. The Whaler filled up with water but stayed upright & floated until rescued.
jasonng	posted 04-03-2001 10:26 PM ET (US) Everyone checkout the 2001 Edgewater boats. These boats have a few things upgraded and look very very nice. However, I still think they builded a notch below the current whalers. But Whalers do cost more money. The current Edgewater definitely builded as good as or above the current Seacraft, Mako, Grady White, Key West, Proline, Scout, and Parker boats which are the same class. Also, The old Whalers one cannot install a backing plate and if water get into the foam the boat become heavier not with Edgewater. I believe 2001 Edgewater boats look and build excellent, safe and cheaper than the Whalers, Contender, Grady White, and Regulator.
B Bear	posted 04-03-2001 10:27 PM ET (US) Larry, I 100% in agreement with you here. I wouldn't mind sharing a beer with you either. Bob
Shadowcatcher	posted 04-03-2001 11:26 PM ET (US) I have never seen any indication that the bonded foam construction of Boston Whaler was actually patented. So even if he had to make the boats look different, why couldn't they use the same construction? --Brian
jimh	posted 04-04-2001 12:44 AM ET (US) The Edgewater construction method is to start with a pre-shaped foam structure and bond the hull and deck to it. The Whaler construction method is to build a hollow boat structure and fill it with foam. The difference, according to Edgewater, is that you get a stronger bond by applying wet resin to cured foam than you get by applying wet foam to cured (or curing) resin. Also, the Edgewater construction uses stringers and other laminated reinforcements inside the hull, where the Whaler hull has no interior structural members (like stringers or frames), but relies on the uni-bond structure of the whole boat to create the strength. I have only seen one Edgewater up close and I did not really give it the once-over for quality of hardware, etc., so I cannot comment on the comparative quality.
whalernut	posted 04-04-2001 05:32 AM ET (US) Bob, I guess I wasn`t clear on my buying a new Edgewater. I would never buy one unless I gave it the 3rd degree. I like the shape of the Edgewater, but want Whaler quality, or very close to it. Like I said I am curious and a little excited to see what Daugherty puts out next and having that beer with all of you! Regards-Jack Graner. P.S. Does anyone know why Daugherty parted ways with Edgewater?
Dan	posted 04-04-2001 09:08 AM ET (US) I copied this info from the link to the Edgewater website because it is almost exactly the same as my Boston Whaler 1999 17' Outrage. Variable deadrise "V" hull. Unsinkable Length: 18'6"/5.7m (Outrage 17'6") Beam: 7'4"/2.3m (Outrage 7') Dry Weight: 1750lbs./795kg (Outrage 1700) Draft: 13"/33cm (Outrage 12") Transom Height: 25" Fuel Capacity: 56 gal./2121 (Outrage same) Weight Capacity: 1400lbs (I think 2400) Person Capacity: 7 (Outrage same) Maximum HP: 150 (Outrage same) Which boat would I rather have? A Whaler - of course!
reelescape1	posted 04-04-2001 11:57 AM ET (US) I seriously looked at a 20 EW brand new at the local dealer here in SC a couple of years ago (98) I think. Poked my head in the fish box and looked up at the bottom of the deck to inspect what I was paying close to 30 K for....the floor was separating!!! This boat had never been in the water!!! It didn't even have a motor mounted on it!!! The dealers response " We can fix that for ya'"....I hope no-one got stuck with this boat!!! This isn't meant to slam EW, I was preparing to buy this boat for myself and this is a true account of what took place. I have serious reservations about their quality.
SuburbanBoy	posted 04-04-2001 02:49 PM ET (US) While on the topic of Whaler alternatives, has anyone had a sea trial in a new Logic boat? The hull material is inherently buoyant; they also have foam stringers, and some stainless backing plates for the misc. hardware. They also have a very tough hull (note the third link contains a picture of man with what appears to be a 12# sledge in full swing, beating on the hull). I inspected some Logic boats at a local dealer. They seemed to be weak in torsion (twisting). When I grabbed the handrail and pulled, the hull would twist more than my 15 striper/sport would. The non-gel material did seem to be an advantage. It would not crack or delaminate. But, it was not shiny like our gel coats. Again, the hull material itself is buoyant, another nice feature. They are not finished nearly as well as a current Whaler. Apparent potential, but not fully exploited yet. Associated links: http://www.logicboats.com/ http://www.logicboats.com/roplene.html http://www.logicboats.com/factory.html
B Bear	posted 04-04-2001 04:15 PM ET (US) I had look at the Logic 17 a few years back and I checked them out again at the Seattle Boat show. They came come quite a ways from when I first saw them. There are fine for basicly plastic boats, roplene I believe is what they call it. Quite tough, when I took a ride in a 13 the dealer rammed a bridge at a couple of knots and there was no damage. There had been some problems with getting the skin thickness even as they roll the mold. There was an issue about how hull repairs were to be made on them also, I think this had been resolved. And I guess One of the Biggest features is that the boat is recyclable. To be honest I almost went for one til two of us got into a 17 next to the stern and water started to flood in over the engine cutout. I am sure it is unsinkable but does not have a great deal of capcity. As the Logic dealer told me "this would be a great first boat". In other words it would be fine to learn on since you could not hurt it.
B Bear	posted 04-04-2001 04:26 PM ET (US) I was correct the Logic 17 center console has the max weight cap of 1185 lb., that would include people, engine, gas, gear, everyting. Where my 16 Dauntless has the max weight cap of 1700 lb., that 600# difference is really quite a bit. I used these two models since these were the ones I looked at when I got ready to buy. Bear
B Bear	posted 04-04-2001 04:28 PM ET (US) Dang can't do math today; I mean 515#.
SuburbanBoy	posted 04-05-2001 02:03 PM ET (US) So it would appear that the Logic hull could profit from a little more foam. Good thing you insisted on a sea trial! BTW, where did you find the Whalers total capacity? I always wondered what the total capacity of my 15' hull. It should be the same for all 15' hulls, correct?
lhg	posted 04-05-2001 02:29 PM ET (US) See the Reference section on this site.