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Author Topic:   Decarbonizing and Ring Free

Alan Hiccock posted 04-05-2002 05:22 PM ET (US)
My first Yamaha; with my OMC engines I always used engine tune and Carbon Guard, OMC's gas additive. A Yamaha dealer today told me I only need to add Ring Free as instructed. There is no need for aerosol spray engine tuners. I was a little suprised. Is this true?
Thanks for any other tips, or any information on this subject, Alan

John from Madison CT posted 04-05-2002 07:43 PM ET (US)
Alan,
You'll hear both sides of the argument when it comes to how much Ring Free and aerosol type carbon removers.
Personally, I'm a sucker for advertising, but also absolutely do not want to lose a motor over carbon issues, which are frequent with most large HP engines.
I use Ring Free at the preventative dose all the time, and decarbon at the end of the season with a can of Valvetech brand Carbon Remover. You cannot overdue either really, all you get is a very clean engine.
John
Alan Hiccock posted 04-05-2002 07:52 PM ET (US)
I like your decarbonizing plan.The end of year spray the Valvetech just before fogging I would imagine.
I agree that you can't really over do it with these products except "they aint cheap!" That's for sure. I think I payed $8.50 today for the small bottle of Ring Free. Thank you for chiming in, Alan
Steve Leone posted 04-05-2002 10:50 PM ET (US)
Take a compression check once in awhile. High compression denotes carbon build up. If compression reads normal, save your dough. I tend to use these products only when necessary. If you are going to fog with a decarbonizer let it sit in the engine for at least overnight. On real dirty ones I let it stand for a week before re-starting. Steve out.
jimithing posted 04-07-2002 09:20 AM ET (US)
Need to peform this service at some point. I have a 1994 Yamaha 225 and need to know exactly what to do to decarb the motor. I haven't always used Ring Free for the life of the motor, so I know that it needs this service performed ASAP. Thanks for the help and all ponters in advance.
jimh posted 04-07-2002 09:47 AM ET (US)
Mercury has a product that I think is similar to Ring Free. They call it Quick Clean. I've looked at it a couple of times and thought about buying it, but the bottle has absolutely no instructions for usage. It just says, "Treats up to 72 gallons of gasoline."
Also, the packaging on this product seems different than all the other Mercury oils and libricants. It almost looks like it is ten years out of date.
Alan Hiccock posted 04-07-2002 10:58 AM ET (US)
Jimithing,
Ive "enginetuned" { or decarbed } plenty over the years.
Yamaha doesnt have a needle valve attachment so you have to spray it right into the carbs, buy a brand other then OMC's with the screw on dohicky on the end .
Remove the dust cover of the carbs start the engine, warm it up couple minutes.
You spray the engine tune right into the carbs. 1 & a time a good 4 second burst or so, then you spray it heavier till it stalls.
LET IT SIT AN HOUR @ LEAST.
While the solvent breaks down the carbon, go have a beer.
After letting it sit for an hour or 2 even, start the engine, you'll see a plume of smoke, carbon chips all sorts of stuff .
Let it run for a few mins. minimum or take the boat out to blow the junk out some more.
Its not a bad idea to clean the plugs afterwards .
In many cases after doing this to an older engine that was never enginetuned you see a noticable difference in performance, really good for it too.
Alan
jimithing posted 04-07-2002 05:46 PM ET (US)
alan
Thanks so much.....That sounds pretty idiot proof....which means I can do it. Is there a better product out there or should I just use the yamaha decarber....Thanks
John from Madison CT posted 04-07-2002 06:07 PM ET (US)
The attached Link is a Kick Butt Decarbonizing procedure from a guy who once worked and now again works for OMC (Bombadier).
It's aggressive but this guys knows his stuff !! Here ya go:
http://www.boatsetup.com/decarb_carb.html

Good Luck,
John
Alan Hiccock posted 04-07-2002 06:13 PM ET (US)
I think thier all pretty much the same & Ive never even seen a Yamaha Decarbonizer but I think they make one.
Its just like a solvent.
You know what I would do since its never been done?
Buy some " Ring Free" Yamaha's gasoline addative and add it to gas tank also , you'll really blow it out, DOUBLE decarbonized, ohhhh yeah!
Alan
Alan Hiccock posted 04-07-2002 06:23 PM ET (US)
Just read the link fro John to Boatsetup.com..
I dont know, he goes into greasing the spline and all sorts of annual stuff dont have to do all that to engine tune an engine.
then he says to use a WHOLE CAN??
Theres enough engine tune in those cans to decarb 1/2 a marina, no need to use a whole can and you couldnt because the motor would load up and stall first.
ONE THING I WOULD ADD is to raise the RPM's to maybe 3 K at least when you start spraying this gook into the carbs so it doesnt stall too early.
You can do it a couple times in a row, even know some folk who let it sit overnight.
also empty the gas filters, good idea too.
This stuff is pretty foolproof.
Even I can do it, Alan
Mark Gallagher posted 04-07-2002 07:15 PM ET (US)
As far as foolproof goes: I heard a good one. Just when you think something is foolproof along comes a talented fool!
Anyway, I always use OMC carbon guard in fuel and at end of each season use can of engine tuner attached to service port to inject cleaning solution and let soak. A can lasts me about 4 or 5 cleanings.
I think this is all cheap insurance when you look at the cost of outboards. Some people are just cheap and think everything is a gimmick.
A further note: The fact that 2 strokes use oil/gas mixtures they are prone to carbon build up. Carbon doesn't just form in the combustion chambers and raise compression the bigger problem is the carbon gettting between or behind the piston rings and sticking a ring. This will surely ruin the cylinder wall and your day! I say it is preventitive maintenance.
Mark
Alan Hiccock posted 04-07-2002 07:34 PM ET (US)
Mark your on to something this from a talented fool.
Carbon is the enemy of 2 strokes we hear it all the time but you dont have to go nuts with this stuff , I use ringfree every few tankfulls and will spray decarb with 1 can full this season.
the engine manufacturers want you to use these products more then needed I bet .
Alan
lhg posted 04-17-2002 03:39 AM ET (US)
JimH - Regarding Mercury's "Quick Clean". Buy it and use it religiously - I do. It keeps the combustion chambers totally clean, and dissolves carbon deposits. Yamaha makes a duplicate product. It is not an out of date product at all, and according to Clark Roberts, contains "Techron". An $8.00 bottle is mixed with 70 gallons of gas, in that proportion, which means it costs about 12 cents per gallon of gas. It is applicable to any 2-stroke outboard. For those with EFI systems, it also cleans fuel injectors.
This was first recommended to me by my Mercury mechanics in Ft Lauderdale. They swear by it, and say it should be used about every 4th tank of gas. I have been using it now since 1989, and my engines have no carbon build up at all.
A lot of people think that most of these engine brand additives are just another profit center. But in this case, the Quick Clean is not. It's needed because of the quality of today's 87 octane fuel.
Actually, this is also the same stuff, in a stronger dose, that is used to spike the TWC-3 oil, and is what actually makes the difference between TCW 2 and 3.
JDH posted 04-17-2002 07:09 PM ET (US)
Any chance on an engine that has never had this done that a bigger piece of carbon could get past the piston and screw up a ring?
I have seen more than 1 2 stroke dirt bike that hsa chewed a ring from carbon breaking loose...
tabasco posted 04-17-2002 08:59 PM ET (US)
Gentlemen:
I noticed that you are all talking about two strokes. How about us 4 stroke engine owners. Is this a necessary thing for us to use? And how often.
Thank you
Alan Hiccock posted 04-17-2002 09:48 PM ET (US)
JDH,
you mean the ole "if it aint broken dont fix it" !
Ive heard storys of people flushing thier car engines and then had leaks andother problems, hey what you say is possible something to consider.
good post, Alan
tarpon posted 04-18-2002 11:25 AM ET (US)
newbie here, so go easy,
Use Chevron gas. Does the same thing. Works for me, after years of using Chevron in all gas motors I own, when you take them apart, no carbon.
Ever notice that all those 'de-carbs' are Techron?
tarpon
RWM posted 04-18-2002 12:00 PM ET (US)
With a four stroke you don't mix oil with the gas...therefore no carbon buildup...no need to decarbonize.
Go 4 strokes!!!
Clark Roberts posted 04-18-2002 10:24 PM ET (US)
Four strokers are prone to carbon buildup but not so much as two strokers which have oil in the combustion mixture. Four strokers suffer from the tendency for carbon buildup on the back (manifold side) of the intake valves. Carbon "pollops" (like little sponges) can develope there and interfere with intake flow causing hesitation and loss of power... periodic treatment with techron or similar product will keep 'em clean! Happy Whalin'... Clark... SCN
PS> my Merc 115 EFI four stroker manual suggest that a fuel of 87 Octane, minimum, be used and that the use of one with injector cleaner (like techron) will give best performance.
JohnT posted 04-18-2002 10:50 PM ET (US)
This scares me. I bought my boat (and motor) used. The motor is 10+ years old (it's a 1991? Johnson 88) and runs like a champ. I use TCW-3 oil additive (Pennzoil Synthetic, IIRC) in my gas. I've put about 150 hours on the boat since I bought it about 1 year ago.
I sincerely doubt that anyone has ever put Ring Free or any similar product in this motor (other than what's in the TCW-3 oil). Otherwise, it has been absolutely babied. Are y'all blowing smoke, or is this stuff really important? If I'm using TCW-3,why do I need to do this, too (since TCW-3 oil has the stuff in it)?
Mark Gallagher posted 04-19-2002 06:13 AM ET (US)
John,
We are only giving opinions. Read all the information and make your own decision. I think for the small investment I would use carbon guard or ring free in the fuel and at the end of the season or every 50 to 75 hours use can of engine tuner and your engine will live longer and run stronger. Of course fuel quality and oil quality play a part too.

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Author	Topic: Decarbonizing and Ring Free
Alan Hiccock	posted 04-05-2002 05:22 PM ET (US) My first Yamaha; with my OMC engines I always used engine tune and Carbon Guard, OMC's gas additive. A Yamaha dealer today told me I only need to add Ring Free as instructed. There is no need for aerosol spray engine tuners. I was a little suprised. Is this true? Thanks for any other tips, or any information on this subject, Alan
John from Madison CT	posted 04-05-2002 07:43 PM ET (US) Alan, You'll hear both sides of the argument when it comes to how much Ring Free and aerosol type carbon removers. Personally, I'm a sucker for advertising, but also absolutely do not want to lose a motor over carbon issues, which are frequent with most large HP engines. I use Ring Free at the preventative dose all the time, and decarbon at the end of the season with a can of Valvetech brand Carbon Remover. You cannot overdue either really, all you get is a very clean engine. John
Alan Hiccock	posted 04-05-2002 07:52 PM ET (US) I like your decarbonizing plan.The end of year spray the Valvetech just before fogging I would imagine. I agree that you can't really over do it with these products except "they aint cheap!" That's for sure. I think I payed $8.50 today for the small bottle of Ring Free. Thank you for chiming in, Alan
Steve Leone	posted 04-05-2002 10:50 PM ET (US) Take a compression check once in awhile. High compression denotes carbon build up. If compression reads normal, save your dough. I tend to use these products only when necessary. If you are going to fog with a decarbonizer let it sit in the engine for at least overnight. On real dirty ones I let it stand for a week before re-starting. Steve out.
jimithing	posted 04-07-2002 09:20 AM ET (US) Need to peform this service at some point. I have a 1994 Yamaha 225 and need to know exactly what to do to decarb the motor. I haven't always used Ring Free for the life of the motor, so I know that it needs this service performed ASAP. Thanks for the help and all ponters in advance.
jimh	posted 04-07-2002 09:47 AM ET (US) Mercury has a product that I think is similar to Ring Free. They call it Quick Clean. I've looked at it a couple of times and thought about buying it, but the bottle has absolutely no instructions for usage. It just says, "Treats up to 72 gallons of gasoline." Also, the packaging on this product seems different than all the other Mercury oils and libricants. It almost looks like it is ten years out of date.
Alan Hiccock	posted 04-07-2002 10:58 AM ET (US) Jimithing, Ive "enginetuned" { or decarbed } plenty over the years. Yamaha doesnt have a needle valve attachment so you have to spray it right into the carbs, buy a brand other then OMC's with the screw on dohicky on the end . Remove the dust cover of the carbs start the engine, warm it up couple minutes. You spray the engine tune right into the carbs. 1 & a time a good 4 second burst or so, then you spray it heavier till it stalls. LET IT SIT AN HOUR @ LEAST. While the solvent breaks down the carbon, go have a beer. After letting it sit for an hour or 2 even, start the engine, you'll see a plume of smoke, carbon chips all sorts of stuff . Let it run for a few mins. minimum or take the boat out to blow the junk out some more. Its not a bad idea to clean the plugs afterwards . In many cases after doing this to an older engine that was never enginetuned you see a noticable difference in performance, really good for it too. Alan
jimithing	posted 04-07-2002 05:46 PM ET (US) alan Thanks so much.....That sounds pretty idiot proof....which means I can do it. Is there a better product out there or should I just use the yamaha decarber....Thanks
John from Madison CT	posted 04-07-2002 06:07 PM ET (US) The attached Link is a Kick Butt Decarbonizing procedure from a guy who once worked and now again works for OMC (Bombadier). It's aggressive but this guys knows his stuff !! Here ya go: http://www.boatsetup.com/decarb_carb.html Good Luck, John
Alan Hiccock	posted 04-07-2002 06:13 PM ET (US) I think thier all pretty much the same & Ive never even seen a Yamaha Decarbonizer but I think they make one. Its just like a solvent. You know what I would do since its never been done? Buy some " Ring Free" Yamaha's gasoline addative and add it to gas tank also , you'll really blow it out, DOUBLE decarbonized, ohhhh yeah! Alan
Alan Hiccock	posted 04-07-2002 06:23 PM ET (US) Just read the link fro John to Boatsetup.com.. I dont know, he goes into greasing the spline and all sorts of annual stuff dont have to do all that to engine tune an engine. then he says to use a WHOLE CAN?? Theres enough engine tune in those cans to decarb 1/2 a marina, no need to use a whole can and you couldnt because the motor would load up and stall first. ONE THING I WOULD ADD is to raise the RPM's to maybe 3 K at least when you start spraying this gook into the carbs so it doesnt stall too early. You can do it a couple times in a row, even know some folk who let it sit overnight. also empty the gas filters, good idea too. This stuff is pretty foolproof. Even I can do it, Alan
Mark Gallagher	posted 04-07-2002 07:15 PM ET (US) As far as foolproof goes: I heard a good one. Just when you think something is foolproof along comes a talented fool! Anyway, I always use OMC carbon guard in fuel and at end of each season use can of engine tuner attached to service port to inject cleaning solution and let soak. A can lasts me about 4 or 5 cleanings. I think this is all cheap insurance when you look at the cost of outboards. Some people are just cheap and think everything is a gimmick. A further note: The fact that 2 strokes use oil/gas mixtures they are prone to carbon build up. Carbon doesn't just form in the combustion chambers and raise compression the bigger problem is the carbon gettting between or behind the piston rings and sticking a ring. This will surely ruin the cylinder wall and your day! I say it is preventitive maintenance. Mark
Alan Hiccock	posted 04-07-2002 07:34 PM ET (US) Mark your on to something this from a talented fool. Carbon is the enemy of 2 strokes we hear it all the time but you dont have to go nuts with this stuff , I use ringfree every few tankfulls and will spray decarb with 1 can full this season. the engine manufacturers want you to use these products more then needed I bet . Alan
lhg	posted 04-17-2002 03:39 AM ET (US) JimH - Regarding Mercury's "Quick Clean". Buy it and use it religiously - I do. It keeps the combustion chambers totally clean, and dissolves carbon deposits. Yamaha makes a duplicate product. It is not an out of date product at all, and according to Clark Roberts, contains "Techron". An $8.00 bottle is mixed with 70 gallons of gas, in that proportion, which means it costs about 12 cents per gallon of gas. It is applicable to any 2-stroke outboard. For those with EFI systems, it also cleans fuel injectors. This was first recommended to me by my Mercury mechanics in Ft Lauderdale. They swear by it, and say it should be used about every 4th tank of gas. I have been using it now since 1989, and my engines have no carbon build up at all. A lot of people think that most of these engine brand additives are just another profit center. But in this case, the Quick Clean is not. It's needed because of the quality of today's 87 octane fuel. Actually, this is also the same stuff, in a stronger dose, that is used to spike the TWC-3 oil, and is what actually makes the difference between TCW 2 and 3.
JDH	posted 04-17-2002 07:09 PM ET (US) Any chance on an engine that has never had this done that a bigger piece of carbon could get past the piston and screw up a ring? I have seen more than 1 2 stroke dirt bike that hsa chewed a ring from carbon breaking loose...
tabasco	posted 04-17-2002 08:59 PM ET (US) Gentlemen: I noticed that you are all talking about two strokes. How about us 4 stroke engine owners. Is this a necessary thing for us to use? And how often. Thank you
Alan Hiccock	posted 04-17-2002 09:48 PM ET (US) JDH, you mean the ole "if it aint broken dont fix it" ! Ive heard storys of people flushing thier car engines and then had leaks andother problems, hey what you say is possible something to consider. good post, Alan
tarpon	posted 04-18-2002 11:25 AM ET (US) newbie here, so go easy, Use Chevron gas. Does the same thing. Works for me, after years of using Chevron in all gas motors I own, when you take them apart, no carbon. Ever notice that all those 'de-carbs' are Techron? tarpon
RWM	posted 04-18-2002 12:00 PM ET (US) With a four stroke you don't mix oil with the gas...therefore no carbon buildup...no need to decarbonize. Go 4 strokes!!!
Clark Roberts	posted 04-18-2002 10:24 PM ET (US) Four strokers are prone to carbon buildup but not so much as two strokers which have oil in the combustion mixture. Four strokers suffer from the tendency for carbon buildup on the back (manifold side) of the intake valves. Carbon "pollops" (like little sponges) can develope there and interfere with intake flow causing hesitation and loss of power... periodic treatment with techron or similar product will keep 'em clean! Happy Whalin'... Clark... SCN PS> my Merc 115 EFI four stroker manual suggest that a fuel of 87 Octane, minimum, be used and that the use of one with injector cleaner (like techron) will give best performance.
JohnT	posted 04-18-2002 10:50 PM ET (US) This scares me. I bought my boat (and motor) used. The motor is 10+ years old (it's a 1991? Johnson 88) and runs like a champ. I use TCW-3 oil additive (Pennzoil Synthetic, IIRC) in my gas. I've put about 150 hours on the boat since I bought it about 1 year ago. I sincerely doubt that anyone has ever put Ring Free or any similar product in this motor (other than what's in the TCW-3 oil). Otherwise, it has been absolutely babied. Are y'all blowing smoke, or is this stuff really important? If I'm using TCW-3,why do I need to do this, too (since TCW-3 oil has the stuff in it)?
Mark Gallagher	posted 04-19-2002 06:13 AM ET (US) John, We are only giving opinions. Read all the information and make your own decision. I think for the small investment I would use carbon guard or ring free in the fuel and at the end of the season or every 50 to 75 hours use can of engine tuner and your engine will live longer and run stronger. Of course fuel quality and oil quality play a part too.