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Author Topic:   Handling boat in a storm--advice?

rsgwynn1 posted 07-10-2002 11:15 AM ET (US)

My sons (24 and 29) and I ran 25 mi. offshore out of Sabine Pass mid-day on Monday. Caught about a dozen with five pretty good keeper snaps to 5 lb. Lost my anchor on the reef, then had to run way west coming in to skirt a storm, which still caught us. Waves to about
6 ft.--we ran with them pretty well but took one nice one over the bow that sent my glasses overboard! Then the engine wouldn't run over 2500 rpm coming back--I suspect problems with the SLOW circuit on the 1989 Evinrude 225. Just had the powerpack replaced, but I'm still having problems with SLOW kicking in. Now, too late, I discover that after SLOW goes on, you have to turn the engine off to reset it! Duh. The trip back took five hrs. at ten knots against a wicked east wind and cross chop. Now I know why Popeye's arms are shaped like that--five hours at the helm is a long time. When we got back to the Sabine jetties it was too dark to risk the boat cut, so I had to run out to the end and follow the buoys in. I don't recommend this under a new moon! Slightly harrowing adventure. To add insult to injury, I had trouble finding the boat launch at Sabine Pass. Why? The storm had blown out all the lights in the town. Got home about midnight and swore the boys to secrecy as far as their mother is concerned.
In a situation like this, I have heard that the ideal solution is to tie off to an oil rig. Unfortunately by the time we found a rig it was too rough to send someone onto the bow to handle the rig hook. From now on, I'm going to keep a rope attached to the bow norman pin at all times so we can handle the hook from the helm instead of the bow. The 22 Revenge Cuddy (1983) handled the waves really well, but it's still quite a job to work from the bow in any kind of chop.
I've always tried to be very careful to avoid storms, but they can come up very quickly in the Gulf this time of year--intense but of brief duration.
What do you do when you do get caught and you have to ride it out? Sea anchors any help? How to deploy them? At what point do you have to run into "the teeth of the gale"?
I need some advice to store up for a "rainy day."
Still-sore Sam
Thank god for the Whaler's construction. At no time was I worried about the boat itself--just the motor.
RMBW posted 07-10-2002 11:34 AM ET (US)
Could you have skirted aroung the storm or stayed offshore till it was spent?? Some times there is no need to run for shore if you have to go into the storm. For sure it make a difference on the size of it. Don't get too excited and run hard if you do not have to. Made the mistake one time off the Keys and went through it. Pulled the steering wheel off. Had to stop and put on a dive mask to make it through. Learning the hard way, but happy to be in the 19'whaler. Mike
Jay A posted 07-10-2002 11:47 AM ET (US)
Intellicast ! www.intellicast.com I check the radar for my area before I go out! And monitor VHF ch16 for any weather alerts from the CG. And if the sky looks a little threatening, listen to NOAA broadcasts and start heading in! And always have a back-up anchor! And a sea anchor will keep your bow pointed into the waves when you have a loss of power.A line tied to a bucket will do. And you mention 5 hours at the helm,give yourself a break ,you had 2 sons onboard (24 and 29)...Thats a no brainer! You don't need to be standing behind the wheel to be the "captain"!
whalerron posted 07-10-2002 12:03 PM ET (US)
All of the seamanship courses tell you the same thing. A power boat is much more stable when under way. For this reason, if you are in powerboat and you are caught in a storm, keep moving.
rsgwynn1 posted 07-10-2002 01:43 PM ET (US)
I always check the NOAA weather on the computer before heading out, but these Gulf storm cells pop up out of nowhere on a hot afternoon. Now I understand why everyone gets out at first light--the storms mainly show up in the afternoon.
All we could see when we left the reef was a bit of gray sky to the east. After a few miles the gray turned to dark blue. Bad feeling.
Yes, we did try to run around the storm. Our return route was due north, and the storm came from due east. We ran west and north as long as we could but still got caught. I suspect the storm was moving faster than 20 mph since it caught us. Luckily there was little lightning though my younger son did say he saw a waterspout.
I wasn't playing Capt. Macho by staying at the helm. The boat is new to my sons and running against the cross chop, even at 10 knots, can be pretty tricky.
I did have a spare anchor, but it's one of those jetty anchors with the bendable arms--fine for weak currents but not much use otherwise. I now have a new 15 lb. Danforth as the main anchor and a new 15 lb. "Digger" as a backup--it's the better of the two but expensive, so I'll hold onto it for special occasions. I may also carry a 20 lb. fluke anchor I have, if I can find space for it. Will probably invest in a couple of sea anchors as well. I've also got to remember to store my Q-Beam, though I never planned on staying out after dark!
Bigshot posted 07-10-2002 01:54 PM ET (US)
NOAA....hahahahahahahah!
rsgwynn1 posted 07-10-2002 02:04 PM ET (US)
Oops, I meant Nexrad (from Intellicast). From NOAA I get the buoy report.
Why the haha? The WX vhf channels carry NOAA reports, don't they?
Highwater posted 07-10-2002 09:06 PM ET (US)
It seems to me that the most valuable things you could have would be a plethora of fuel, a good GPS somehow linked to charts, and a strong Bimini top.
What happens if lightning hits the boat? Does the Bimini top help, in that the lightning may hit it rather than the top of your head? Will the charge be passed on to the water. Would an antenea help you (by being a grounding rod) or hurt you (in that its height might attract lightning)? Does it matter what type of shoes you are wearing (i.e., with rubber soles or not rubber soles)? Thanks! David
rsgwynn1 posted 07-10-2002 09:13 PM ET (US)
It seems to me that the most valuable things you could have would be a plethora of fuel, a good GPS somehow linked to charts, and a strong Bimini top.
What happens if lightning hits the boat? Does the Bimini top help, in that the lightning may hit it rather than the top of your head? Will the charge be passed on to the water. Would an antenea help you (by being a grounding rod) or hurt you (in that its height might attract lightning)? Does it matter what type of shoes you are wearing (i.e., with rubber soles or not rubber soles)? Thanks! David
========================
Got the first three, but still don't know about lightning. Wonder if there's anybody out there who has been hit before.
And, yes, rubber soles.
DaveH posted 07-11-2002 11:32 AM ET (US)
Gentlemen:
Lightning in Florida is about as common as smog in L.A. Most strikes in small boats would be lethal but in some cases people would miraculously survive. I do not remember any tales to tell. Your best solution is always to avoid these storms.
If you are caught in one in an open boat, stay low and try not to touch anything grounded in your boat (my thankfully untested opinion). If you have any shelter, use it. All boats should have some means for electrical surges to ground out either via an external grounding plate or an engine and its running gear. A properly wired boat will have all electrical gear grounded to this common point as well (this is also proper to prevent floating ground noise). The idea (theory) is to give many paths (dispersion) for the lightning to surge through. Sail boats are wired through their mast and stay plates to the keel. In some cases, normally non-conductive materials (fiberglass) can transmit lightning because the surge is so powerful. Just a few thoughts for lunch.
Bigshot posted 07-11-2002 01:07 PM ET (US)
From all the shows I have seen on TLC etc lightning actually goes from the ground up to the sky, not down to the ground like we all think. The earth has positive charges that meet the negative charges in the air and cause a static lightning bolt. Why and how stuff gets "struck" is beyond me though. The reason why cars do not get struck is not because of their rubber tires but because it is a negative ground electrical system....same as boats. Airplanes get struck by lightning dozens of times during storms but nothing happens to them....same might happen to boats and cars. I know one person who saw someone get struck on a boat. He was on a flying bridge and it went through the wheel, up his arms and blew out his shoulders. He lived but was obviously hospitalized.
hauptjm posted 07-11-2002 03:09 PM ET (US)
BS is correct that lightning comes from the ground, up. I have to say, I have always felt safer on a sailboat in a lightning storm than a motor boat. I've been hit in a sailboat race and all we lost was our electrical system. The grounding of the mast to the keel provides a relatively safe passage for the electricity. Just don't hold on to any of the rigging.
Jimm posted 07-11-2002 03:42 PM ET (US)
Never say "never", but I think BS and Haupt are "mistaken". According to NASA there are two major kinds of lightning- cloud to cloud and cloud to ground.
http://thunder.msfc.nasa.gov/primer/primer2.html
rsgwynn1 posted 07-11-2002 04:44 PM ET (US)
Informative, if not exactly reassuring:
http://www.cdc.gov/nasd/docs/d000001-d000100/d000007/d000007.html
DaveH posted 07-11-2002 06:14 PM ET (US)
Excellent article! I did not know about the 60 degree cone radius for lightning protection. Now I can say I have learned something important today. Thanks rsgwynn1!
By the way, I live in the black portion of central Florida cited in the chart. You know, the one with concentration of lightning strikes. We are big golfers in this community and so when in a lightning storm, it's recommended to lift your 2-iron high in the air because not even God can hit a 2-iron.....yeah, I know it's sacrilegious but its still true.
rsgwynn1 posted 07-11-2002 09:10 PM ET (US)
Yeah, but who carries a 2-iron these days? Would a 7 wood work?
hauptjm posted 07-12-2002 10:34 AM ET (US)
Jimm even though NASD describes the movement as cloud to ground the process starts at the bottom of the system. The bottom can be the bottom of the cloud or the ground (or an object on the ground) itself.
Per the NASD, "Lightning strikes represent a flow of current from negative to positive, in most cases, and may move from the bottom to the top of a cloud, from cloud to cloud, or most-feared, from cloud to ground (see Figure 3)". The ground is the negative component. The positive charges would basically just stay put if the negative charges didn't "seek" them out.
Although, it apparently is impossible to see the originating effect of the negative charge "seeking" the positive, what we do see is the resulting release of energy once contact is made.
I've seen some really incredible film of experiments with lightning. Scientists have even created it by launching model size rockets attached to a grounding tether and shot them into the cloud completing the circuit.
Read rsgwyn1's url further and the comparison of energy to a spark plug is pretty frightening. If you�ve ever been "bitten" by a spark plug, you'll know what I mean.
Jay A posted 07-12-2002 07:55 PM ET (US)
I got a 2 iron with a 2' shaft! Perfect for under trees/bushes shots! And believe me,it comes in handy!

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Author	Topic: Handling boat in a storm--advice?
rsgwynn1	posted 07-10-2002 11:15 AM ET (US) My sons (24 and 29) and I ran 25 mi. offshore out of Sabine Pass mid-day on Monday. Caught about a dozen with five pretty good keeper snaps to 5 lb. Lost my anchor on the reef, then had to run way west coming in to skirt a storm, which still caught us. Waves to about 6 ft.--we ran with them pretty well but took one nice one over the bow that sent my glasses overboard! Then the engine wouldn't run over 2500 rpm coming back--I suspect problems with the SLOW circuit on the 1989 Evinrude 225. Just had the powerpack replaced, but I'm still having problems with SLOW kicking in. Now, too late, I discover that after SLOW goes on, you have to turn the engine off to reset it! Duh. The trip back took five hrs. at ten knots against a wicked east wind and cross chop. Now I know why Popeye's arms are shaped like that--five hours at the helm is a long time. When we got back to the Sabine jetties it was too dark to risk the boat cut, so I had to run out to the end and follow the buoys in. I don't recommend this under a new moon! Slightly harrowing adventure. To add insult to injury, I had trouble finding the boat launch at Sabine Pass. Why? The storm had blown out all the lights in the town. Got home about midnight and swore the boys to secrecy as far as their mother is concerned. In a situation like this, I have heard that the ideal solution is to tie off to an oil rig. Unfortunately by the time we found a rig it was too rough to send someone onto the bow to handle the rig hook. From now on, I'm going to keep a rope attached to the bow norman pin at all times so we can handle the hook from the helm instead of the bow. The 22 Revenge Cuddy (1983) handled the waves really well, but it's still quite a job to work from the bow in any kind of chop. I've always tried to be very careful to avoid storms, but they can come up very quickly in the Gulf this time of year--intense but of brief duration. What do you do when you do get caught and you have to ride it out? Sea anchors any help? How to deploy them? At what point do you have to run into "the teeth of the gale"? I need some advice to store up for a "rainy day." Still-sore Sam Thank god for the Whaler's construction. At no time was I worried about the boat itself--just the motor.
RMBW	posted 07-10-2002 11:34 AM ET (US) Could you have skirted aroung the storm or stayed offshore till it was spent?? Some times there is no need to run for shore if you have to go into the storm. For sure it make a difference on the size of it. Don't get too excited and run hard if you do not have to. Made the mistake one time off the Keys and went through it. Pulled the steering wheel off. Had to stop and put on a dive mask to make it through. Learning the hard way, but happy to be in the 19'whaler. Mike
Jay A	posted 07-10-2002 11:47 AM ET (US) Intellicast ! www.intellicast.com I check the radar for my area before I go out! And monitor VHF ch16 for any weather alerts from the CG. And if the sky looks a little threatening, listen to NOAA broadcasts and start heading in! And always have a back-up anchor! And a sea anchor will keep your bow pointed into the waves when you have a loss of power.A line tied to a bucket will do. And you mention 5 hours at the helm,give yourself a break ,you had 2 sons onboard (24 and 29)...Thats a no brainer! You don't need to be standing behind the wheel to be the "captain"!
whalerron	posted 07-10-2002 12:03 PM ET (US) All of the seamanship courses tell you the same thing. A power boat is much more stable when under way. For this reason, if you are in powerboat and you are caught in a storm, keep moving.
rsgwynn1	posted 07-10-2002 01:43 PM ET (US) I always check the NOAA weather on the computer before heading out, but these Gulf storm cells pop up out of nowhere on a hot afternoon. Now I understand why everyone gets out at first light--the storms mainly show up in the afternoon. All we could see when we left the reef was a bit of gray sky to the east. After a few miles the gray turned to dark blue. Bad feeling. Yes, we did try to run around the storm. Our return route was due north, and the storm came from due east. We ran west and north as long as we could but still got caught. I suspect the storm was moving faster than 20 mph since it caught us. Luckily there was little lightning though my younger son did say he saw a waterspout. I wasn't playing Capt. Macho by staying at the helm. The boat is new to my sons and running against the cross chop, even at 10 knots, can be pretty tricky. I did have a spare anchor, but it's one of those jetty anchors with the bendable arms--fine for weak currents but not much use otherwise. I now have a new 15 lb. Danforth as the main anchor and a new 15 lb. "Digger" as a backup--it's the better of the two but expensive, so I'll hold onto it for special occasions. I may also carry a 20 lb. fluke anchor I have, if I can find space for it. Will probably invest in a couple of sea anchors as well. I've also got to remember to store my Q-Beam, though I never planned on staying out after dark!
Bigshot	posted 07-10-2002 01:54 PM ET (US) NOAA....hahahahahahahah!
rsgwynn1	posted 07-10-2002 02:04 PM ET (US) Oops, I meant Nexrad (from Intellicast). From NOAA I get the buoy report. Why the haha? The WX vhf channels carry NOAA reports, don't they?
Highwater	posted 07-10-2002 09:06 PM ET (US) It seems to me that the most valuable things you could have would be a plethora of fuel, a good GPS somehow linked to charts, and a strong Bimini top. What happens if lightning hits the boat? Does the Bimini top help, in that the lightning may hit it rather than the top of your head? Will the charge be passed on to the water. Would an antenea help you (by being a grounding rod) or hurt you (in that its height might attract lightning)? Does it matter what type of shoes you are wearing (i.e., with rubber soles or not rubber soles)? Thanks! David
rsgwynn1	posted 07-10-2002 09:13 PM ET (US) It seems to me that the most valuable things you could have would be a plethora of fuel, a good GPS somehow linked to charts, and a strong Bimini top. What happens if lightning hits the boat? Does the Bimini top help, in that the lightning may hit it rather than the top of your head? Will the charge be passed on to the water. Would an antenea help you (by being a grounding rod) or hurt you (in that its height might attract lightning)? Does it matter what type of shoes you are wearing (i.e., with rubber soles or not rubber soles)? Thanks! David ======================== Got the first three, but still don't know about lightning. Wonder if there's anybody out there who has been hit before. And, yes, rubber soles.
DaveH	posted 07-11-2002 11:32 AM ET (US) Gentlemen: Lightning in Florida is about as common as smog in L.A. Most strikes in small boats would be lethal but in some cases people would miraculously survive. I do not remember any tales to tell. Your best solution is always to avoid these storms. If you are caught in one in an open boat, stay low and try not to touch anything grounded in your boat (my thankfully untested opinion). If you have any shelter, use it. All boats should have some means for electrical surges to ground out either via an external grounding plate or an engine and its running gear. A properly wired boat will have all electrical gear grounded to this common point as well (this is also proper to prevent floating ground noise). The idea (theory) is to give many paths (dispersion) for the lightning to surge through. Sail boats are wired through their mast and stay plates to the keel. In some cases, normally non-conductive materials (fiberglass) can transmit lightning because the surge is so powerful. Just a few thoughts for lunch.
Bigshot	posted 07-11-2002 01:07 PM ET (US) From all the shows I have seen on TLC etc lightning actually goes from the ground up to the sky, not down to the ground like we all think. The earth has positive charges that meet the negative charges in the air and cause a static lightning bolt. Why and how stuff gets "struck" is beyond me though. The reason why cars do not get struck is not because of their rubber tires but because it is a negative ground electrical system....same as boats. Airplanes get struck by lightning dozens of times during storms but nothing happens to them....same might happen to boats and cars. I know one person who saw someone get struck on a boat. He was on a flying bridge and it went through the wheel, up his arms and blew out his shoulders. He lived but was obviously hospitalized.
hauptjm	posted 07-11-2002 03:09 PM ET (US) BS is correct that lightning comes from the ground, up. I have to say, I have always felt safer on a sailboat in a lightning storm than a motor boat. I've been hit in a sailboat race and all we lost was our electrical system. The grounding of the mast to the keel provides a relatively safe passage for the electricity. Just don't hold on to any of the rigging.
Jimm	posted 07-11-2002 03:42 PM ET (US) Never say "never", but I think BS and Haupt are "mistaken". According to NASA there are two major kinds of lightning- cloud to cloud and cloud to ground. http://thunder.msfc.nasa.gov/primer/primer2.html
rsgwynn1	posted 07-11-2002 04:44 PM ET (US) Informative, if not exactly reassuring: http://www.cdc.gov/nasd/docs/d000001-d000100/d000007/d000007.html
DaveH	posted 07-11-2002 06:14 PM ET (US) Excellent article! I did not know about the 60 degree cone radius for lightning protection. Now I can say I have learned something important today. Thanks rsgwynn1! By the way, I live in the black portion of central Florida cited in the chart. You know, the one with concentration of lightning strikes. We are big golfers in this community and so when in a lightning storm, it's recommended to lift your 2-iron high in the air because not even God can hit a 2-iron.....yeah, I know it's sacrilegious but its still true.
rsgwynn1	posted 07-11-2002 09:10 PM ET (US) Yeah, but who carries a 2-iron these days? Would a 7 wood work?
hauptjm	posted 07-12-2002 10:34 AM ET (US) Jimm even though NASD describes the movement as cloud to ground the process starts at the bottom of the system. The bottom can be the bottom of the cloud or the ground (or an object on the ground) itself. Per the NASD, "Lightning strikes represent a flow of current from negative to positive, in most cases, and may move from the bottom to the top of a cloud, from cloud to cloud, or most-feared, from cloud to ground (see Figure 3)". The ground is the negative component. The positive charges would basically just stay put if the negative charges didn't "seek" them out. Although, it apparently is impossible to see the originating effect of the negative charge "seeking" the positive, what we do see is the resulting release of energy once contact is made. I've seen some really incredible film of experiments with lightning. Scientists have even created it by launching model size rockets attached to a grounding tether and shot them into the cloud completing the circuit. Read rsgwyn1's url further and the comparison of energy to a spark plug is pretty frightening. If you�ve ever been "bitten" by a spark plug, you'll know what I mean.
Jay A	posted 07-12-2002 07:55 PM ET (US) I got a 2 iron with a 2' shaft! Perfect for under trees/bushes shots! And believe me,it comes in handy!