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Author Topic:   Ethics of Boat Selling/Buying

11 footer posted 10-03-2002 09:44 PM ET (US)
I am in a bend......
There is a river near me. At one time I took my whaler on it to fish, and in the fall look at the great leaves changing. But know I have a new outboard and new bottem paint and I have not gone near it this year. The reason I will not go in it is because there are a lot of rocks. In the mean time I have an older but good running 8hp merc. Then today I buy a want ad and find this ad
"''' 10'alum v-Hull Boat,
Exc con. For fishng all types of water customized s/s livewell. seats 2 comfortably 1st $450/bo 1st to see will buy. call Aaron (billerica)
Billerica is only one town over form me.
I call and then, take a ride over to see it.
Has a live well with a batery that pumps water in and out.
(something I think is very cool) and has 2 high fishing chair's that looked very cumfey. It was kind of dark so I did not get the best look at it. The plate said it was rated for 5hp, I have an 8. no trailer but I would have no prolbem takeing it in and out of my dad's full size truck. The brand on it was sea nife. and looked like the top half had been painted blue. I am worred about over powering a boat so small, do you guy's think it will be unsafe? It also has foum under the flour. Do you think this is a good deal? Money is not what I am worryed about. It is buying the boat not being able to use it and not being able to get rid of it. I told the guy I would come by tomorow and give him the cash and take the boat. Should I back out ?
Jimh sorry about the non whaler qustion.
Thanks
11
jimh posted 10-03-2002 09:57 PM ET (US)
The ethics of selling and buying boats by oral contract has been an interesting topic of some previous discussion.
Did you "shake" on the deal?
11 footer posted 10-03-2002 10:46 PM ET (US)
No shake. What to you think about the boat? I am kind of thinking that I will not use it that much. I have not been out in my whaler in 6 weeks.
11
David Jenkins posted 10-03-2002 11:09 PM ET (US)
Ethically, I see no problem with backing out of the deal if you do not want the boat or think that you will rarely use it. Around here, there are lots of small boats for sale at that price with no motor or trailer. If you read a lot of classifieds, you can sometimes find great deals on Whalers--why not wait? When filled with water, will this boat sink or does the "foum under the flour" make it self-rising? :)
jimh posted 10-03-2002 11:12 PM ET (US)
If you did not exchange a token of mutual agreement on the purchase, such as shaking hands, then this mitigates your obligation to the seller, in my opinion.
If you casually told him "I'll be back tomorrow" to conclude the deal, then you may decline to buy the boat, but you should inform the seller immediately of your change of mind.
The reluctant buyer who changes his mind is quite common. With beautiful classic Boston Whaler boats, it is often the seller who is reluctant and changes his mind.
As for the boat's value, assume you have just bought the boat and are thinking about selling it. What price would you hope to get?
John O posted 10-03-2002 11:45 PM ET (US)
Be honest and call the guy EITHER WAY. I am in sales. I prefer a yes or a no rather than no answer. Tell him yes he's happy, tell him no and he moves onto another buyer. No harm no foul.
kingfish posted 10-03-2002 11:48 PM ET (US)
Agree. You changed your mind - that happens with people. But the right thing to do is to tell the guy who's waiting to hear from you if you have changed your mind.
Drisney posted 10-04-2002 12:58 AM ET (US)
I think you might be mistaken about the max HP for that boat...a ten foot V hull aluminum should be max rated at 15 or so....they are run with ten all the time...max might even be 25...Dave
KeysNole posted 10-04-2002 01:26 AM ET (US)
If you didn't leave a deposit, backing out of the deal is not a problem. With the ad you posted, the seller seems confident (almost cocky) that the boat will sell fast.
Last year I backed out of a 25' Grady White for the simple fact that I didn't like the owner.
Drisney, my father has a 10 ft jon that is rated for 5hp. The boat is actually somewhat unstable and doesn't comfortably fish while standing up.
Tom W Clark posted 10-04-2002 01:35 AM ET (US)
A 10' aluminum skiff probably is rated for only 5 hp. A friend of mine has a 10' Smoker Craft which is rated for 5 hp. I have a 12' Lund which is rated for 15 hp but I run a 9.9 on it and it scary fast. I had a 12' Smoker Craft before the Lund that was rated for only 7.5 hp. I would not put an 8 hp on a 10' car topper rated for 5 hp.
I doubt very much that the boat in question is a V-hull. Probably a round chined flat bottomed skiff with a pointy ("V") bow as opposed to a blunt nosed jon boat.
If you don't want to buy the boat, don't. But do let the seller know as soon as possible that you've decided not to buy. Do not just fail to show up.
jameso posted 10-04-2002 08:41 AM ET (US)
My old pappy said' Never buy a pair of shoes that don't fit. If they don't fit in the store they never will.
If I have doubts of buying anything STOP.
Also don't buy a car while it's raining or a boat at nite.
Me and my old pappys 02 cents worth.
Have a good weekend. Jim Armstrong
wayne baker posted 10-04-2002 09:22 AM ET (US)
there all right just call the guy ad tell him nice boat not really a match for your needs (or wants for that matter) if he gets mad ,I do not think he will, he's not much of a man anyway . bygones to the deal
Bigshot posted 10-04-2002 11:15 AM ET (US)
Easy out.....your lawyer says do NOT put a 8hp on it being rated for 5. No fuss....no muss.
newt posted 10-04-2002 11:35 AM ET (US)
You said you would buy it, so if you dont you are a bad bad bad man.
However, if no deposit was put down, you can be assured that the seller would take somebody elses cash over your word.
Anyone who has sold anything knows that cash talks, and until some greenbacks are in hand, there is no deal.
Do what you feel is right.
David Jenkins posted 10-04-2002 12:37 PM ET (US)
Newt, where I'm from, if somebody said they would buy a boat and the two parties shook hands and called it a deal, the seller would not sell it to anyone else, even if someone offered more money.
newt posted 10-04-2002 01:25 PM ET (US)
David, You live in a remarkable area. Look at all the responses to 11's questions here in this thread, and all of them say he should walk. Is that because they did not shake on it?
Whenever I go shopping, I have money in my pocket to place a deposit.
newt posted 10-04-2002 01:28 PM ET (US)
Yours included. :)
David Jenkins posted 10-04-2002 01:48 PM ET (US)
I may be splitting hairs, but I think that we are talking about two different things. I'm saying that if there was no handshake and no deposit, it is ethically okay for a buyer to call back a seller and say that he/she had a change of mind (or the lawyer/insurance agent objected). If there was a handshake that makes it more difficult. If there is money down, the buyer loses the deposit.
The other situation is when a seller re-negs on the deal. If the seller shakes on a deal and then sells it to someone else for a higher price, that is unethical. The seller should have accepted a backup offer instead.
So, although the handshake and deposit are important variables, I have different codes of ethics for buyers and sellers. In my mind, the buyer can change his or her mind, but the seller cannot (unless the decision is simply to not sell the boat). The difference is that the buyer's decision may be affected by many factors (including the lawyer and insurance agent) whereas (in this scenario, anyway) the seller is only motivated by greed.
Capt_Tidy posted 10-04-2002 02:19 PM ET (US)
Come on guys... it's a simple world. Just do what you say you will. Backing out of deals with a lame excuse is just not the future.
If you don't want to buy it now and after you said you'd "take it", get your ass over to the guy and talk to him. Likely he will be okay with it. A little honesty goes a long way. Who know who will come by the next time your out on the river and your engine is out.
If he is not okay with it then "buck up" and compensate him or buy the damn boat if it's not a money issue on your part. If he did realize some expense... like needing to extend his ad or whatever... give him a couple of buck and feel good about yourself.
I sold a zodiac a couple of years ago and spent the better part of the day cleaning it up and getting the engine serviced for the guy. He gave a $1000 deposit to fold it up for him and get it off the market. A day later the guy shows ups and wants out of the deal... he was worried about the size... something we talked about before he gave me his deposit. The guy was really cool, and honest. I had turned down several offers and one for even more money but I gave him back his deposit. He turned around and gave me $60 for the engine tune and help me set the thing up again. Good guy.
We don't need to debate what is right and wrong. Its the guys who say "they'll take it" and then never return that makes it a "cash talks" world. I'd rather trust someone over a couple of bloody bucks.
gnr posted 10-04-2002 02:32 PM ET (US)
11,
Put yourself in the buyers position and treat him the way you would want to be treated. Around here most folks consider a verbal agreement as good as a written contract. At least talk to the guy and be straight up with him. If he's is as sure as he sounds that his boat is a great deal he will probably let you off the hook with no hard feelings. If he puts up a fuss, buy the boat and for $450.00 you got yourself a beater boat and a lesson learned. Good Luck.
gnr posted 10-04-2002 02:35 PM ET (US)
Man am I haveing a rough day at the keyboard.
"Put yourself in the buyers position" I said.
You all know I meant the seleers position, right?
newt posted 10-04-2002 03:00 PM ET (US)
I believe that what's good for the goose is good for the gander. A buyer and seller should have the same rules.
I like the idea that a verbal agreement holds both parties. That agreement could be contingent upon the bank, insurance agent, etc (similar to purchasing a house), so long as the offer is made and accepted with the contingencies.
However, from real world experience, I have found that money talks. If I am the seller and am asked to hold the item, I will only do so with a deposit (and I will tell the buyer so). If I am the seller, I will provide a deposit.
If 11 footer told me he would be back tomorrow to buy my boat and then never showed, I would not be surprised in the least. If someone came along with cash 10 minutes after he left, I would sell to the guy with cash. If 11 footer gave me $10 as a good faith deposit, I would never sell the boat out from under him.
In my experience, a serious buyer has cash in pocket or makes an effort to cough up a deposit.
When I bought my Montauk earlier this year, I was the first to look at the boat, and had no money on me at the time. We agreed on a price, and I then drove to an ATM, took out $250 cash, and made a deposit. The guy must have known he could have sold the boat for more or equal $$$, but my cash in his hand took it off the market.
My opinions (like everybody's) are formulated from past experience, and from my experience, too many people "will call you tomorrow".
If your community is different, then it must be a nice place to live!
WantaWhale posted 10-04-2002 03:14 PM ET (US)
Did you say that you would buy it for sure or was it more like "I'll probably buy it tommorow". If I gave the guy my word that I would buy it then I would buy it unless I found something really wrong with it that he didn't mention (cracked rivits etc). I collect old Honda motorcycles and 2 years ago I found one that I had really been looking for on the net. I called the guy long distance and we hit it off really well. The pictures looked really good so I decided to buy it. This was a Monday or Tuesday. I asked if I could send 90% down as deposit today and the remaining 10% on Friday. He told me there was no need as if I was sure I wanted it, he promised he would hold it for me . He even added that he "was a man of his word" Well I got the remaining money on Wens. and told him I was ready. He emails me back and said that he was sorry but he went ahead and sold the bike. Said he found some scratchs that he failed to mention so it was for my own good. After that he disappeared and didn't return any emails and let his answering machine pick up. I never could understand why he did this and still bugs me that he even added the part about being a man of his word. Botton line is to not end up with a reputation like him.
David Jenkins posted 10-04-2002 10:30 PM ET (US)
I see what you mean, Newt. Good point.
11 footer posted 10-04-2002 10:52 PM ET (US)
I called him an told him I was going to pass. He sounded like he was kind of dissaponted. If I did buy i it would be the kind of thing that I would use once or twice and then it would sit in my yard and take up space.
11
North Beach posted 10-05-2002 11:42 AM ET (US)
I think JimH was alluding to the Witness Revenge 22 saga, among others. That was a perituclarly sad incident, in part because Witness seemed to wear his religion on his sleeve and then never responded to the 'allegations" even though he said he would.
He seemed like a good guy and I still wish he posted his position.
Man, now i am way off-topic!
North Beach posted 10-05-2002 11:43 AM ET (US)
Forgot to add that I am generally disgruntled to be home (again)for kid b-day party on this fine boat day in NJ.
Glad I dont have bigger boat
Foamfilled posted 10-06-2002 09:43 PM ET (US)
A man's word should be his bond. If his word isn't worth anything neither is he.
Jim
Drisney posted 10-06-2002 11:02 PM ET (US)
I sold my 17 a couple months ago...the guy was nice and we shook hands on the deal, he came back a week later as promised and wrote me a bum check for part of the payment !!! Above all be honest !!! Dave
Bigshot posted 10-07-2002 11:41 AM ET (US)
My rules are word is bond also. If seller will not take deposit, you better get the cash because he won't hold it. If a buyer says he wants it but does not give me deposit(even $20)....too bad.
Foamfilled posted 10-07-2002 03:43 PM ET (US)
If a man can not keep his word I'm better off having not dealt with him. Chances are his interpretation of the condition of the boat, and the services provided had no meaning either. Keep your cash, and buy from someone honest. I never require a deposit, but nor do I sell it to someone else. If he backs out. I then sell to another. If you are selling a quality product...everybody and his brother wants it. I do however take names and telephone numbers of potential buyers...should the original buyer back out.
I will and do offer deposits to sellers, but a dishonest man, will still sell to the higher bidder. Deposits mean nothing. It doesn't bother me...because I am glad my business went somewhere else. There is however a contract in place, even oraly if you choose to pursuit it, but you would have to prove it. Nice thing about email....a nice log if it is needed.
I also like to look them in the eyes. A honest man, can look right back while a dishonest man...never looks you in the eyes.
Bigshot posted 10-07-2002 03:58 PM ET (US)
Anything over $500 has to be in writing or else null and void. An e-mail as well as E-Bay is good enough I believe.
If a guy wants my item but can't give me a deposit at handshake or within an ATM machine away.....why be loyal and pass up a sale? If he can't fetch $20....doubt he can fetch $5000.
Salmon Tub posted 10-07-2002 04:16 PM ET (US)
The ethics of life dictate that the first one to put the money down will be the buyer. Contracts, handshakes, smiles, intentions ... that means little. The ad as quoted in the first post makes little sense in that it says:
1st $450/bo 1st to see will buy.
I think he basically means first come first serve so I don't think he will consider it sold till he is paid and it is gone.
newt posted 10-07-2002 04:18 PM ET (US)
To clarify my posts on this thread....
It would be fantastic if we could rely on one's word as a binding contract, and I like to think that I am a man of my word, and even that everyone on this forum is a (wo)man of his word.
However, it just isn't true. Again, look at all the responses to 11's intitial question. How many people here advocated that 11 footer go and buy the boat as he said he would? Maybe 50%?
So, with only a 50% chance of the party on the other end of the deal holding up to his/her obligations, I would only hold the sale with a deposit.
Bigshot posted 10-07-2002 04:46 PM ET (US)
Newt that is what we are kinda saying....he screwed up by not taking a deposit and therfore 11 can walk.
Other thing is 11 is like the young kid on the block. We are talking to him like we would be if he was talking about sex. Yeah 11 go for it, she wants you, she's cute, etc when if it was our own son we would be kicking some butt saying "Yo....that is my son your trying to corrupt!" etc.
Foamfilled posted 10-07-2002 08:57 PM ET (US)
Not to get too far off the subject, but if you called up your babysitter, and told her you were going to pay him/her $5.00 per hour, and ultimately owed him/her $25.00 for 5 hours, but refused to pay. He/She has a case in court based upon their oral agreement. To take it a little farther....many employees who work for less then $500.00 per week, and don't or can't get paid for whatever reason, do not have a written contract for services, but also have a case if not compensated. The issue as to whether it is worth the effort is another issue. Having it in writing is always prefered.
If I buy or sell...count on my word! I will however pay a reasonable deposit anytime, yet leave the deposit question up to the buyer. I will hold it for a reasonable prearranged time....then if no sale I will call my backup buyers. I like the HONOR system...just raised that way.
11 footer posted 10-07-2002 09:57 PM ET (US)
You guy's are makeing a moutian out of a mole hill.
1st lets remember that we are talking about a little crapey 10' boat here.
2ed When I talked to the man I had about 500.00 cash in my pocket. I was not as impressed with the boat as I thot I was going to be. I needed to sleep on it because I thot it would just be something that would take up space in my yard. When I left the guy's house we did not shake or anything like that. He did not mess up by not takeing a deposit because I would not have gave him one anyway. Whan I left I told him I would get ahold of him tomorow. The next day I told him I was going to pass. No big deal. I am sure it did not make his day ,but it was nothing he was going to sue my for of anything like that.
(no big deal end of storey)
11
David Jenkins posted 10-07-2002 10:08 PM ET (US)
11, In the initial post of the thread titled, "Ethics of Boat Selling/Buying," you wrote, "I told the guy I would come by tomorow and give him the cash and take the boat. Should I back out?" Now you are saying that you would not have given him a deposit if he had asked for it, and you really did not mean that you would come back and buy the boat when you said that. You said you would buy it so that he would hold it for you while you thought some more about it. Right?
Foamfilled posted 10-07-2002 10:56 PM ET (US)
I have purchased two Whalers this week.
The 1st was 900 miles away. We agreed upon a price, I offered a deposit, none was required. I picked up the boat in "As Discribed" condition at the agreed price. I carried a Certified Bank Check for full payment. Deal Completed. Emails and telephone.
The 2nd was a local deal. The seller was asking $3800.00 for the boat. I offered $3000.00. He chose to think about it for a couple of hours, and get back to me. 5 Days later he contacts me, and states he will accept $3200.00, not $3000.00. I bought the boat, but I know he was waiting to see if he got a better offer. I did not blame him, but he knew he had a deal no matter what. I'm happy, and he's happy. I would have bought it on the spot for $3500.00 had he countered then and there. I waited....He waited....I saved $300.00....He gained $200.00. Done deal.. all over the telephone..though I was able to see it without him being there.
newt posted 10-08-2002 08:08 AM ET (US)
Bigshot, that is what 1/2 of you are saying, I was responding to the other 50%. I guess I was getting a little defensive of my "word". (OK, I will shut up now)
11footer, thanks for the wild goose chase. Even if you were full of sh*t in your first post, it made for a good discussion!
:)
Florida15 posted 10-09-2002 05:37 PM ET (US)
Hi guys. I am new to this forum.Newly registered anyway. I have been reading it for a couple of weeks. I was reading this topic and just had to register.
Buying and selling stuff is a hobby of mine.
I don't need the money,I just enjoy it. I have bought and sold everything from guns to boats and motorcycles.
I learned one thing over the years - if you want it,you better go get it NOW because no matter what the man says, chances are that it will not be there later in the day.
I have talked to people at noon and they swore they would hold an item for me until I got off work. I went over after work and they acted like they never heard of me.
I even had one guy try to act like he didn't know the difference between a Ruger Single Six and a Hawes .22. He had sold the Ruger to
a better offer even though he promised me he would hold it and tried to pass off the Hawes. I drove 25 miles to find this out. My point is that, unfortunately, there are not a lot of ethical people out there. I am thrilled when I do find one.Money talks and if there was no deposit and no firm commitment then I don't think there was a verbal contract. I think 11footer did the right thing by calling the guy. A lot of people wouldn't even do that.
Florida15 posted 10-09-2002 05:38 PM ET (US)
Hi guys. I am new to this forum.Newly registered anyway. I have been reading it for a couple of weeks. I was reading this topic and just had to register.
Buying and selling stuff is a hobby of mine.
I don't need the money,I just enjoy it. I have bought and sold everything from guns to boats and motorcycles.
I learned one thing over the years - if you want it,you better go get it NOW because no matter what the man says, chances are that it will not be there later in the day.
I have talked to people at noon and they swore they would hold an item for me until I got off work. I went over after work and they acted like they never heard of me.
I even had one guy try to act like he didn't know the difference between a Ruger Single Six and a Hawes .22. He had sold the Ruger to
a better offer even though he promised me he would hold it and tried to pass off the Hawes. I drove 25 miles to find this out. My point is that, unfortunately, there are not a lot of ethical people out there. I am thrilled when I do find one.Money talks and if there was no deposit and no firm commitment then I don't think there was a verbal contract. I think 11footer did the right thing by calling the guy. A lot of people wouldn't even do that.

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