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Author Topic:   lines on a 13's belly vs. a 15's

ss13 posted 01-07-2003 04:15 PM ET (US)
My buddy has a 15 Striper and I have a 13 Super Sport. We both pride ourselves on the "whaler" underbelly lines each respective boat has.
I love the whale jowl on both, but feel the 13 holds back a bit: it reserves some of the swoop and lets the imagination run with it's incompletion.
Thought it might be an interesting thread that lends to discussion of the overall whaler aesthetic that I'm sure we all love.
Dr T posted 01-07-2003 05:35 PM ET (US)
The elegant design of the Whaler appears to be driven much more by function than form. The little lines have specific functions (allowing it to come up on a plane faster, reducing spray, etc) that drive their existence. The fact that these boats are pleasing to the eye is a pleasant by-product of the design. For example, I can think of no area of wasted space in my '82 13 Sport.
Tom W Clark posted 01-07-2003 10:38 PM ET (US)
ss13,
I'm glad to see you've come to appreciate the aesthetics of capitalizing the first word of your sentences.
The smirk, as it is called, is something that was first seen on the Outrage in 1970. (I say "the Outrage" because when the first 21' Whaler was introduced it was simply called "Outrage"). In 1972 the 13' Whaler was updated after 13 years of production by rounding the splashwell and adding the smirk to make it more identifiable with the then new 21' model. The hull shape was largely unchanged and thus the smirk does seem rather understated in comparison to other, newer Whaler models like the 15 which was introduced in 1975 for the 1976 model year.
I am speculating here, but I imagine that the 15’ model was designed with some of the insight the 21' (and, by then, the 19') model provided, namely that a deeper V in the bow would help to slice the waves better. Whaler also redesigned the 17' hull in 1976 to give it not only a smirk but this deeper V shape to the bow.
Having spent quite a bit of my youth in both the smirked and non-smirked 16/17 hulls, I can attest to the fact that the smirked hull is both softer riding and [b]much/b]drier. I do not think the smirk on the 13' hull makes nearly as much difference.
ss13 posted 01-08-2003 12:23 AM ET (US)
I'm but an inkle of a weathered expert when it comes to Whaler lore, so thanks for the insight.
It does bring full glory to the smirk in knowing that it holds every bit the function that it screams with its beauty. That said, thus far I'd have to give it to the 15 over the 13 as it sounds like its function side of the coin has more than enough to make up for what I perceive to be a slight lack of beauty from the reserved 13 smirk.
Speaking of no wasted space, my ss13 with the wrap around rail, seems much bigger than a mere 13'-4".
PRJ and I will be wrangling up in Lake of the Woods this summer, which will give us ample time to compare side by side ride.
Any idea if there is a connection between the Whaler name and its uncanny resemblance to the smirk of the monstrous aqua mammal?
Glad I could ablige you Tom. I'm just a bit slow on the grammatical take at times, ha.
Tom W Clark posted 01-08-2003 12:45 AM ET (US)
ss13,
Now I thinks you poke fun at me!
I don't know if there was any conscious connection between the smirk and what a Whaler looks like. It seems to logical to speculate that that might be the case. I guess one would have to just ask Bob Dougherty himself to find out. I have never read anything about hat in any of the interviews I've come across. But maybe...
I've owned both the 13 and the 15. I will say that the 15 is surprisingly smooth for its size. It also have a surprisingly large horsepower capacity. When it first debuted, it had a 75 hp maximum rating which went down to 70 the following year. My 15 had a 70 on it and it is the one Whaler I would not think of overpowering. Mine was a 1979 so it was powerhead rated. I suspect a prop shaft rated 70 would be scary.
The thing i remember most about my 15, a customized Striper, is that the sensation of speed was the greatest of all the Whalers I have owned or ever taken a ride in. While my boat only went something like 42 mph, because you were so low to the water, it just seemed like so much more.
I sold that boat in 1981 and did not go for a ride in one until the early 1990's when I went fishing on Elliot Bay with a friend. I remember that outing. Even though it was a calm summer day, I just could not get over how small it seemed and how close to the water the gunwale was. It was kind of unnerving.
Last summer I had the chance to spend about a week fooling around in a 1972 Sport 13 on Cape Cod. God what fun. It would just pound you going over boat wakes, but what the heck. Even though it only had a 25 hp Merc, it would still easily plane with three large adults with picnic gear and go faster that I really cared to. Just an all time great little boat! In production (almost unchanged) for over forty years. Dick Fisher must have done something right.
David Jenkins posted 01-08-2003 07:15 AM ET (US)
What impresses me most about the 11 and the 13 are their lateral stability. On both boats a full grown man can stand on the side gunnel and not have to worry that the boat is going to take on water or tip over. You can jump down from a dock onto the bow with a feeling of confidence that the boat will feel relatively solid under your feet when you land. You don't have that feeling on the 9 or 15.
ss13 posted 01-08-2003 09:55 AM ET (US)
No poking intended Tom. I simply do have the habit of not capping anything in email format and had to chuckle when I came across the thread about watching ones grammar and the likes. Of course I came across that the day after I made my first post, so it was good fun on me. PRJ was also quick to get on me about the case sensitivity and when I got your funny on aesthetics and sentence structure brought a quick grin.
I've always been amazed at how stable my buddy's 15 striper is when boarding it from a houseboat. Can't even compare it to the stability of anything else I know that size. Again, I'm a newbe, so can't wait till next season to try out all that I'll learn this winter from you guys. Thanks.
whalersailer posted 01-08-2003 11:12 AM ET (US)
Hi Guys,
I have owned a 13 sport (non smirked), an 11 sport, and currently a 15 Striper. I have to say that the 15 is hands down the best riding and handling boat of the 3. The very features that give the 11 and 13 somewhat better lateral stability also make for the gut wrenching ride and inferior handling (both tend to slide in high speed turns until they 'bite - then watch out!). These 2 hulls are actually tri hulls, whereas the 15 has a much more pronounced V with the corresponding deadrise carried to the transom.
Everytime I look at the pictures of my 15 in my cube (more often in January than in July!), I can't help but think how much the hull form resembles the Outrages. The straight sheer, deep V, and pronounced smirk all very closely resemble her larger brethren. I don't think it is a coincidence that the 15 was one of Dougherty's first Whaler designs. Boat design is always a trade-off, and I think that Bob made the right trade-offs when he came up with the 15 hull.
-WS
JBCornwell posted 01-08-2003 11:48 AM ET (US)
I agree that the hull of the 15 is swoopy beyond the 13 and 11. It looks like it is going like stink when it is on the trailer.
But, I also agree that the 11 and 13 are more stable.
Speaking of swoopy lines, Isn't the original 21-22 Outrage the swoopiest Whaler on the water?
Red sky at night. . .
JB
whalersailer posted 01-08-2003 12:05 PM ET (US)
JB,
What do you mean by "swoopy"?
If you mean that it (the 15) resembles the orignal Outrage more than the 11 and 13 (and the original 16/17 for that matter), I have to disagree. The shear lines of the 11, 13, and 16/17 are not straight. The 15 and the '80's Outrages all share the same straight shear. The '80's outrages definitely don't have the same shear as the original Outrage.
However, if you mean the smirk as "swoopy", then I would tend to agree with you. The 15 definitely has much more smirk than the 11 and 13.
-WS
Tom W Clark posted 01-08-2003 12:14 PM ET (US)
I agree the 13 has better lateral stability than the 15, though still very good. It is just one of those trade-offs. It's interesting to note that the 13 was rated for 6 persons while the 15 was rated for only 5, perhaps reflecting this difference.
JB,
Yes, the original 21 (1970 - 1980) was, and still is, the swoopiest of them all. The original 22 definitely was not.
russellbailey posted 01-08-2003 01:20 PM ET (US)
Just to note, the 15 was rated for 7 people at first before being derated to 5. As someone who has actually used a 15 with 7 adults more than once, I can see why it was derated, as the fore-aft trim is pretty important with a lot of weight.
You can also "scoop" green water over the bow if you come off plane quickly heavily loaded and hit any kind of wave. I suspect the 13/17 would do this to a far less extent given the much fuller side sponsons.
Tom W Clark posted 01-08-2003 01:48 PM ET (US)
Russell,
You are correct. The 15 had a capacity of 7 persons from 1976 through 1980 and a 5 person capacity from 1981 on.
hooter posted 01-08-2003 02:51 PM ET (US)
ss13, from mah dog-eared Webster's: "in-kle \'ink-kel\ n [origin unknown]: a colored linen tape or braid woven on a very narrow loom and used for trimming; also: the thread used [in weaving a inkle, Ah suppose]". Nice word that, but new t'mah vernacular. Ah's followin' yer prosaic verbosity great ezcept for that one li'l inkle. Can you please elaborate on your use thereof? (sorry t'miss the larger pernt here, but we all might learn somethin'):-!
Dr T posted 01-08-2003 03:25 PM ET (US)
Mr. Hooter,
I, too, pondered this use. Perhaps an inkling of the meaning here can be derived from another interpretation, per another tome of Webster's (Revised Unabridged):
inkle
\In"kle\, v. t. [OE. inklen to hint; cf. Dan. ymte to whisper.] To guess. [Prov. Eng.] ``She inkled what it was.''
PMUCCIOLO posted 01-08-2003 03:36 PM ET (US)
The lines of the classic 13 and 15 are timeless. It is unfortunate that these lines have been abandoned in the new sport 13 and 15; they seem to have lost their aesthetic appeal.
hooter posted 01-08-2003 04:11 PM ET (US)
Well, that's most helpful, Dr T, and appreciated. Mah bruised old New Collegiate edition falls short on occasion. Ah inkle that ss13 has perhaps misused the term inkle, or TO inkle, as the case may be, because an "inkle of a weathered expert" could refer either to a very small component of that expert (such as his li'l toenail, which ss13 says that he decidedly is NOT), or it could possibly refer to the meer foggy GUESS of said expert, which hardly seems to serve the pernt here at all. I'm now tangled all up in this inkle matter and have no inkling whatsoever as t'what the man's drivin' at in this inkle, Ah mean thread. Ah give up.
Ah do agree that the 15' is a bit wobblier under butt than the 13'. Still a fine, fine lookin' li'l craft and fast with a 70.
ss13 posted 01-08-2003 05:31 PM ET (US)
Sorry to lead you astray on the use of inkle, was not intending to have it be a tripper.
Clarification: inkling= obsolete use of the word inkle or incle meaning to hint + -ing meaning akin to.
Meaning I was a bit obsolete in using it, ha.
I assume passanger limits on the 13 and 15 vary with configuration?
hooter posted 01-08-2003 05:58 PM ET (US)
Done driven me t'drink (as good as any excuse for a whiskey this time o'day), so thank you.
Both rigs boast maximum rated capacities of six persons, but in the 13' they'd best be six li'l dwarfs, leavin' no room for Grumpy OR Snow White (If she's back at the camp wid him, why is he so unhappy? Ah inkle he'd rather be in the 13' wid his buds, buzzin' round the lake, an pullin' HER on some water skis, of course! Sure beats the salt mine). :-!
Dr T posted 01-08-2003 06:20 PM ET (US)
"Inkling" better not be obsolete. It is as timeless as the design of the 13.
As for usable space: When I bought my 13, I did an informal comparison of "Fishable Space" between it and a number of other boats. I seem to recall that I would have had to move up to about a 17 or 18 ft bass boat to have as much room.

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Author	Topic: lines on a 13's belly vs. a 15's
ss13	posted 01-07-2003 04:15 PM ET (US) My buddy has a 15 Striper and I have a 13 Super Sport. We both pride ourselves on the "whaler" underbelly lines each respective boat has. I love the whale jowl on both, but feel the 13 holds back a bit: it reserves some of the swoop and lets the imagination run with it's incompletion. Thought it might be an interesting thread that lends to discussion of the overall whaler aesthetic that I'm sure we all love.
Dr T	posted 01-07-2003 05:35 PM ET (US) The elegant design of the Whaler appears to be driven much more by function than form. The little lines have specific functions (allowing it to come up on a plane faster, reducing spray, etc) that drive their existence. The fact that these boats are pleasing to the eye is a pleasant by-product of the design. For example, I can think of no area of wasted space in my '82 13 Sport.
Tom W Clark	posted 01-07-2003 10:38 PM ET (US) ss13, I'm glad to see you've come to appreciate the aesthetics of capitalizing the first word of your sentences. The smirk, as it is called, is something that was first seen on the Outrage in 1970. (I say "the Outrage" because when the first 21' Whaler was introduced it was simply called "Outrage"). In 1972 the 13' Whaler was updated after 13 years of production by rounding the splashwell and adding the smirk to make it more identifiable with the then new 21' model. The hull shape was largely unchanged and thus the smirk does seem rather understated in comparison to other, newer Whaler models like the 15 which was introduced in 1975 for the 1976 model year. I am speculating here, but I imagine that the 15’ model was designed with some of the insight the 21' (and, by then, the 19') model provided, namely that a deeper V in the bow would help to slice the waves better. Whaler also redesigned the 17' hull in 1976 to give it not only a smirk but this deeper V shape to the bow. Having spent quite a bit of my youth in both the smirked and non-smirked 16/17 hulls, I can attest to the fact that the smirked hull is both softer riding and [b]much/b]drier. I do not think the smirk on the 13' hull makes nearly as much difference.
ss13	posted 01-08-2003 12:23 AM ET (US) I'm but an inkle of a weathered expert when it comes to Whaler lore, so thanks for the insight. It does bring full glory to the smirk in knowing that it holds every bit the function that it screams with its beauty. That said, thus far I'd have to give it to the 15 over the 13 as it sounds like its function side of the coin has more than enough to make up for what I perceive to be a slight lack of beauty from the reserved 13 smirk. Speaking of no wasted space, my ss13 with the wrap around rail, seems much bigger than a mere 13'-4". PRJ and I will be wrangling up in Lake of the Woods this summer, which will give us ample time to compare side by side ride. Any idea if there is a connection between the Whaler name and its uncanny resemblance to the smirk of the monstrous aqua mammal? Glad I could ablige you Tom. I'm just a bit slow on the grammatical take at times, ha.
Tom W Clark	posted 01-08-2003 12:45 AM ET (US) ss13, Now I thinks you poke fun at me! I don't know if there was any conscious connection between the smirk and what a Whaler looks like. It seems to logical to speculate that that might be the case. I guess one would have to just ask Bob Dougherty himself to find out. I have never read anything about hat in any of the interviews I've come across. But maybe... I've owned both the 13 and the 15. I will say that the 15 is surprisingly smooth for its size. It also have a surprisingly large horsepower capacity. When it first debuted, it had a 75 hp maximum rating which went down to 70 the following year. My 15 had a 70 on it and it is the one Whaler I would not think of overpowering. Mine was a 1979 so it was powerhead rated. I suspect a prop shaft rated 70 would be scary. The thing i remember most about my 15, a customized Striper, is that the sensation of speed was the greatest of all the Whalers I have owned or ever taken a ride in. While my boat only went something like 42 mph, because you were so low to the water, it just seemed like so much more. I sold that boat in 1981 and did not go for a ride in one until the early 1990's when I went fishing on Elliot Bay with a friend. I remember that outing. Even though it was a calm summer day, I just could not get over how small it seemed and how close to the water the gunwale was. It was kind of unnerving. Last summer I had the chance to spend about a week fooling around in a 1972 Sport 13 on Cape Cod. God what fun. It would just pound you going over boat wakes, but what the heck. Even though it only had a 25 hp Merc, it would still easily plane with three large adults with picnic gear and go faster that I really cared to. Just an all time great little boat! In production (almost unchanged) for over forty years. Dick Fisher must have done something right.
David Jenkins	posted 01-08-2003 07:15 AM ET (US) What impresses me most about the 11 and the 13 are their lateral stability. On both boats a full grown man can stand on the side gunnel and not have to worry that the boat is going to take on water or tip over. You can jump down from a dock onto the bow with a feeling of confidence that the boat will feel relatively solid under your feet when you land. You don't have that feeling on the 9 or 15.
ss13	posted 01-08-2003 09:55 AM ET (US) No poking intended Tom. I simply do have the habit of not capping anything in email format and had to chuckle when I came across the thread about watching ones grammar and the likes. Of course I came across that the day after I made my first post, so it was good fun on me. PRJ was also quick to get on me about the case sensitivity and when I got your funny on aesthetics and sentence structure brought a quick grin. I've always been amazed at how stable my buddy's 15 striper is when boarding it from a houseboat. Can't even compare it to the stability of anything else I know that size. Again, I'm a newbe, so can't wait till next season to try out all that I'll learn this winter from you guys. Thanks.
whalersailer	posted 01-08-2003 11:12 AM ET (US) Hi Guys, I have owned a 13 sport (non smirked), an 11 sport, and currently a 15 Striper. I have to say that the 15 is hands down the best riding and handling boat of the 3. The very features that give the 11 and 13 somewhat better lateral stability also make for the gut wrenching ride and inferior handling (both tend to slide in high speed turns until they 'bite - then watch out!). These 2 hulls are actually tri hulls, whereas the 15 has a much more pronounced V with the corresponding deadrise carried to the transom. Everytime I look at the pictures of my 15 in my cube (more often in January than in July!), I can't help but think how much the hull form resembles the Outrages. The straight sheer, deep V, and pronounced smirk all very closely resemble her larger brethren. I don't think it is a coincidence that the 15 was one of Dougherty's first Whaler designs. Boat design is always a trade-off, and I think that Bob made the right trade-offs when he came up with the 15 hull. -WS
JBCornwell	posted 01-08-2003 11:48 AM ET (US) I agree that the hull of the 15 is swoopy beyond the 13 and 11. It looks like it is going like stink when it is on the trailer. But, I also agree that the 11 and 13 are more stable. Speaking of swoopy lines, Isn't the original 21-22 Outrage the swoopiest Whaler on the water? Red sky at night. . . JB
whalersailer	posted 01-08-2003 12:05 PM ET (US) JB, What do you mean by "swoopy"? If you mean that it (the 15) resembles the orignal Outrage more than the 11 and 13 (and the original 16/17 for that matter), I have to disagree. The shear lines of the 11, 13, and 16/17 are not straight. The 15 and the '80's Outrages all share the same straight shear. The '80's outrages definitely don't have the same shear as the original Outrage. However, if you mean the smirk as "swoopy", then I would tend to agree with you. The 15 definitely has much more smirk than the 11 and 13. -WS
Tom W Clark	posted 01-08-2003 12:14 PM ET (US) I agree the 13 has better lateral stability than the 15, though still very good. It is just one of those trade-offs. It's interesting to note that the 13 was rated for 6 persons while the 15 was rated for only 5, perhaps reflecting this difference. JB, Yes, the original 21 (1970 - 1980) was, and still is, the swoopiest of them all. The original 22 definitely was not.
russellbailey	posted 01-08-2003 01:20 PM ET (US) Just to note, the 15 was rated for 7 people at first before being derated to 5. As someone who has actually used a 15 with 7 adults more than once, I can see why it was derated, as the fore-aft trim is pretty important with a lot of weight. You can also "scoop" green water over the bow if you come off plane quickly heavily loaded and hit any kind of wave. I suspect the 13/17 would do this to a far less extent given the much fuller side sponsons.
Tom W Clark	posted 01-08-2003 01:48 PM ET (US) Russell, You are correct. The 15 had a capacity of 7 persons from 1976 through 1980 and a 5 person capacity from 1981 on.
hooter	posted 01-08-2003 02:51 PM ET (US) ss13, from mah dog-eared Webster's: "in-kle \'ink-kel\ n [origin unknown]: a colored linen tape or braid woven on a very narrow loom and used for trimming; also: the thread used [in weaving a inkle, Ah suppose]". Nice word that, but new t'mah vernacular. Ah's followin' yer prosaic verbosity great ezcept for that one li'l inkle. Can you please elaborate on your use thereof? (sorry t'miss the larger pernt here, but we all might learn somethin'):-!
Dr T	posted 01-08-2003 03:25 PM ET (US) Mr. Hooter, I, too, pondered this use. Perhaps an inkling of the meaning here can be derived from another interpretation, per another tome of Webster's (Revised Unabridged): inkle \In"kle\, v. t. [OE. inklen to hint; cf. Dan. ymte to whisper.] To guess. [Prov. Eng.] ``She inkled what it was.''
PMUCCIOLO	posted 01-08-2003 03:36 PM ET (US) The lines of the classic 13 and 15 are timeless. It is unfortunate that these lines have been abandoned in the new sport 13 and 15; they seem to have lost their aesthetic appeal.
hooter	posted 01-08-2003 04:11 PM ET (US) Well, that's most helpful, Dr T, and appreciated. Mah bruised old New Collegiate edition falls short on occasion. Ah inkle that ss13 has perhaps misused the term inkle, or TO inkle, as the case may be, because an "inkle of a weathered expert" could refer either to a very small component of that expert (such as his li'l toenail, which ss13 says that he decidedly is NOT), or it could possibly refer to the meer foggy GUESS of said expert, which hardly seems to serve the pernt here at all. I'm now tangled all up in this inkle matter and have no inkling whatsoever as t'what the man's drivin' at in this inkle, Ah mean thread. Ah give up. Ah do agree that the 15' is a bit wobblier under butt than the 13'. Still a fine, fine lookin' li'l craft and fast with a 70.
ss13	posted 01-08-2003 05:31 PM ET (US) Sorry to lead you astray on the use of inkle, was not intending to have it be a tripper. Clarification: inkling= obsolete use of the word inkle or incle meaning to hint + -ing meaning akin to. Meaning I was a bit obsolete in using it, ha. I assume passanger limits on the 13 and 15 vary with configuration?
hooter	posted 01-08-2003 05:58 PM ET (US) Done driven me t'drink (as good as any excuse for a whiskey this time o'day), so thank you. Both rigs boast maximum rated capacities of six persons, but in the 13' they'd best be six li'l dwarfs, leavin' no room for Grumpy OR Snow White (If she's back at the camp wid him, why is he so unhappy? Ah inkle he'd rather be in the 13' wid his buds, buzzin' round the lake, an pullin' HER on some water skis, of course! Sure beats the salt mine). :-!
Dr T	posted 01-08-2003 06:20 PM ET (US) "Inkling" better not be obsolete. It is as timeless as the design of the 13. As for usable space: When I bought my 13, I did an informal comparison of "Fishable Space" between it and a number of other boats. I seem to recall that I would have had to move up to about a 17 or 18 ft bass boat to have as much room.