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Author Topic:   Intrepid: The New Whaler?

Knockerjoe posted 02-26-2003 11:34 AM ET (US)
According to a city official I talked to here in Broward county Florida, Intrepid boats are making an aggresive push into the commercial market. Intrepid just about gave away their boats to Broward County which has traditonally used Boston Whaler for many years. These boats are used for the police and consevation people. I think he said they just bought about 25 vessels. I would suspect that their Whalers will be coming up for auction soon.
lhg posted 02-26-2003 02:32 PM ET (US)
There is rumor out there that Bombardier is also giving away Evinrude Ficht's for law enforcement boats. All the others probably try to do it also.
[Moderator's note; The so-called rumor was completely contradicted when Florida's State Government published a price list for motors that showed that Mercury gave the deepest discounts and priced their motors below all other brands--jimh]
The new Ft Lauderdale police Intrepids have Evinrude Ficht's on them, coincidentally.
All of this is standard business these days for enforcement boats. I seem to remember that the Lake Tahoe police seem to go with the lowest bidder also. First, I saw a big press release that they had "selected" Honda for their boats, for clean 4-stroke power. Honda made a big deal out it with theri advertizing. But then, the next year, after Bombardier bought OMC, they announced they had changed their mind about Honda, and "selected" Ficht's, for clean two stroke power. Bombardier made a big deal out it for their advertizing. I'll bet the engines were "gifts".
I think all of this buusiness marketing is OK when the engine choice is not critical, so why not go with the "flow". Money is short all over these days for law enforcement.
But I recently learned that is not so with the US Customs, who really need their boats to run fast and reliably. They evidently have rejected Optimax and Ficht, and are now buying Mercury EFI's for their offshore go-fasts. Buying "American" could be an issue there as well.
Bigshot posted 02-26-2003 02:40 PM ET (US)
I know the local CG in NJ went to Honda one year, people complained and back to OMC the next year. I do not know if law enforcement can take gifts like that, some may consider that a BRIBE.
TRAFFICLAWYER posted 02-26-2003 03:47 PM ET (US)
larry:
Let me give you a clue, there is no longer in todays global economy anything that relates to 'buying American'. This is a bygone and meaningless slogan. My brand new GMC Sierra has an Isuzu motor and who only knows where it was assembled.
Knockerjoe posted 02-26-2003 04:33 PM ET (US)
I think you guys are missing the point a little here. If you are fortunate enough to take a look at an Intrepid close up you will see what Brunswick has been missing. These boats are quality with a great layout, you know like the way they used to build our classics. Yes it is great to get these boats cheaper than whaler but if Brunswick is not careful these will become the "new" whaler the industry standard.
dgp posted 02-26-2003 05:28 PM ET (US)
Your new GM / Isuzu DuraMax was made in the new factory in Poland.
PSW posted 02-26-2003 06:01 PM ET (US)
Talked to CG buyer while spending the weekend this last summer in the San Juan islands. He stated they take offers from everybody and look at price, reliability, and commercial warranty. Also said down side of 4strokes is you are always pulling them out of the water to change oil. The only motor they did not shop around was the 250 Merc EFI. He said for speed it is the only choice. The boats that you see quite a bit around here is the aluminum with composite ribbing on the side like a RIB. They are made in the local area. They are light, high performance, and utility. That's the report for here in the NW.
Oh by the way the CG guy was on his brand new GW with Yamaha power.
PSW
lhg posted 02-26-2003 07:15 PM ET (US)
Traffic - To me, buying American not only means where the product was manufactured, but to which country the Corporate profits go. As we all know, US corporate profits keep our economy going. They've been pretty lean lately. When you buy your GMC, the profits go to Detroit. When I buy a Mercury or Boston Whaler, the profits go to Brunswick, a US Corp in Chicago. When you buy a Yamaha, the profits go home to Japan. And I'm glad the French don't make outboards these days!
So when one buys a joint venture Mercury/Yamaha 60HP 4-stroke, powerhead built by Mercury over here, you have a choice where you want the corporate profit to go, our economy or Japan's. So I buy black.
Yamaha of America is a shell, and has even been accused (by US Government) of intnetionally buying Yamaha engines and other products at a loss from the homeland, so that they don't have to pay any American taxes on the profits. This keeps all the taxes on profits at home, so we get nothing. This I do not like.
Getting back to knockerjoe's original comments, over the last few years it has become painfully evident the Whalers are no longer the commercial patrol craft of choice.
It seems that fewer and fewer government agencies are buying them. Whaler's new models since 1991 have simply not captured the commercial/government market, which is why the older hulls are still in the line.
Rib's have destroyed the market for the small models besides.
TRAFFICLAWYER posted 02-26-2003 07:25 PM ET (US)
Larry:
I'm totally with you on the French!
jimh posted 02-26-2003 08:19 PM ET (US)
Oui! Oui!
Dick posted 02-26-2003 08:51 PM ET (US)
Whaler patrol boats are still alive and deployed. A contingent of the Coast Guard were just deployed from here in Seattle with their BW 25s headed to the Gulf.
Dick
j_h_nimrod posted 02-27-2003 02:33 AM ET (US)
I know the old Evinruude and the new Bombardier both have offered their engines to government and non-profit groups (not sure of particular requirements) at a considerable price reduction from retail.
Clark Roberts posted 02-27-2003 07:27 AM ET (US)
Larry, you said it, I believe it, and that's that! I will buy NOTHING (and I really mean NOTHING) produced in France! Happy Whalin'.. Clark,, Spruce Creek Navy
Whaletosh posted 02-27-2003 08:06 AM ET (US)
One of the reasons I went with mercs on the last 3 Whalers was because they are made by an American firm. I had a choice on two of the boats and choose Mercurys.
As far as the French are concerned, I don't buy French wine, there are plenty of as good as or better choices. Many of them made here in Michigan.
When I bought a new TV set at the beginning of the year you can bet it wasn't a RCA or GE. Those brands are owned and made by Thomson Electronics, a big French company.
Beyond wine, cheese, and un-pasturized butter what do the French make that anybody wants to buy?
RMS posted 02-27-2003 09:11 AM ET (US)
The French? What other type of behavior would one expect from a country where a chef recently killed himself because the Michelin Guide downgraded his restaurant's rating? My apologies for being off-topic...
jameso posted 02-27-2003 10:09 AM ET (US)
Never did like snails or red wine, frogs legs on the other hand. Then can't see me buying a Renault outboard either!
"Going to war without the French is like going deer hunting without an accordian."
N. Boortz
Hey, off subject by I feel much better. Jim
Bigshot posted 02-27-2003 10:17 AM ET (US)
On the flip side though Larry.....my Mercedes is made in Alabama. The people who built my truck were paid a decent wage and are able to buy their food and support their families. Not quite sure where the profit goes being Daimler/Chrysler but my point is American families are fed with my Mercedes. The profit goes to art collections and corporate yachts. With a GMC being built in Poland we are helping the Polish support their families and the profit comes homeside for what? If Detroit got the money why is the city half deserted and voted as one of the worst cities to reside in? I think People in TN and AL are tickled with Toyota and Honda, etc because it is supporting them, they are not cioncerned with what the company does with the profits as long as their checks clear.
jimh posted 02-27-2003 10:37 AM ET (US)
The French--What do they make?
The Concorde
The TGV (High Speed Train) that goes 250-MPH
The Atomic Bomb
The Radial Tire
All from a population about the size of Ohio, I think.
To portray the French as stupid, intoxicated wine drinkers ignores these technological achievements.
Bigshot posted 02-27-2003 10:46 AM ET (US)
Yup! Along with:
Puegot
Citroen
Here is a neat link:
http://inventors.about.com/cs/frenchinventors/
diveorfish posted 02-27-2003 11:04 AM ET (US)
Well what do you expect from a government worker in Broward County, they can�t even count for Christ�s sake. Remember, government workers may not always be the sharpest knives in the drawer anyway.
As far as buying American, I try too for the most part but doing so out of blind loyalty can breed complacency that can result in junk products. If that occurs, the American company shouldn�t deserve our business. Currently, I�m in the market for a minivan and I�m sad to say that a certain Japanese offering is head and shoulders above its American competitors and will probably get my money. As �Trafficlaywer� already pointed out though, in this global economy it�s hard to distinguish what nationality a product is. I know that GM and Ford own significant portions of some Japanese auto makers so who knows.
As far as the French are concerned, they never had anything I wanted to buy anyway. I won�t buy anything German either. I used to live in Europe and I was not real fond of them long before they pulled their latest shenanigans.
newt posted 02-27-2003 11:55 AM ET (US)
Corporate profits go to whomever owns the stock. If you want to Yamaha profits to stay American, then buy stock in Yamaha.
I always laughed when people commented on my "rice burner" Nissan. That truck was made in Tennessee by American workers!
Isn't Chyrsler or one of the big "American" auto makers now owned by a foreign company?
I have no great love for the french (except the kissing style), but try to find a Chateau-neuf-du-Pape equivilant wine here in the states!
where2 posted 02-27-2003 12:27 PM ET (US)
Engine manufacturers have been "gifting" engines for quite some time. The 25' Frontier out behind the office had a pair of 225hp Optimax's on it that Mercury took back before the boat left law enforcement duties in Lee County, FL.
Anyone who can grab a CPD at a surplus auction "might" get a deal, depending on what the guy next to him wants to bid. I missed my chance to get a 2001 Johnson 70hp at a local surplus auction. I'm still guessing they went for under $1k...
Al_A_Buy posted 02-28-2003 11:01 AM ET (US)
Just a couple of comments-
1-"gifting" is prohibited in government procurement. Even the acceptance of things as trivial donuts in a meeting hosted by contractors is frowned upon. I cannot even buy my customer a beer. So the assertion that a company gave products to a government agency, even at the local level is specious at best. The company may not have made a profit on the transaction, but they are required, at least at the federal level by the FAR (Federal Acquisition Regulations), to cover their cost (known as a "buy-in").
2 - Government Workers - Don't forget that it was government workers who designed the Saturn 5 rocket that got us to the moon, it is government workers who are on the pointy end of the spear to protect us (cops, firemen, soldiers, sailors, etc...). I am sure that in any enterprise that employs thousands of people one can find 10% who are somewhat less than capable. To generalize all government employees this way is demeaning and insulting to the 90% who are doing a great job.
Flame over.....
Al W.
lhg posted 02-28-2003 03:25 PM ET (US)
I agree with Al. A cheap shot at the good people that keep this country running, and safe & free was uncalled for, and not to be tolerated, here or anywhere else.
diveorfish posted 02-28-2003 05:27 PM ET (US)
Al_A_Buy, lhg and everybody else for that matter, I apologize for my cheap shot at government workers. Furthermore, even though I failed differentiate who I was referring to, I wasn�t referring to cops, firemen, soldiers and the like who I dearly love. In fact, I have been and still am a government worker for over 13 years and my jobs have literally been in direct support of the missions of fireman, peace officers and the military. As a government worker from California though, (You know, the land of nuts, fruits and a 35 billion dollar budget deficit) I have seen way more than my share of waste, fraud, abuse and just plain incompetence in the government.
alkar posted 03-02-2003 10:48 AM ET (US)
On government workers: I am a government worker and have been for most, but not all, of my working life. I'm proud of the work I do and, for the most part, the people I work with. Having said that, we government types are subject to silly regulations and restrictions that are implemented by pandering politicians. The decisions they make are often incomprehensible for rational, linear thinkers. When policy decisions are disclosed, they inevitably brand the powerless 99% of us as idiots. For example, my state and county governments are trying to cope with enormous revenue reductions. As a result, we're seeing wholesale layoffs of police, nurses, mental health staff, corrections officers, and many, many others. However, we still have a woman employed full-time as a "Diversity Analyst". Nobody seems to know exactly what this woman does. She's well-versed in the speech of political correctness, and she sends out e-mails telling employees about upcoming parades and "diversity celebrations", but she doesn't appear to actually DO anything. Nevertheless, you can bet that she'll remain employed long after men and women of all colors have been let go from their essential positions in law enforcement and nursing.
Of course, when we ask the public for the money replace the officers who have been laid off, you can be sure that some media type will find the money we waste on our "analyst" and use it as proof that we have more money than we need. Meanwhile, the state of Oregon has fewer State Police officers then we had 25 years ago - and we just lost another 100 or so.
On government boat contracts: During my brief foray into the private sector I worked for a boat manufacturer. I reviewed several law enforcement contracts, and we were encouraged to bid them aggressively (for all the obvious reasons). The bid requests from government agencies are extremely specific, and the boats are often more expensive to build, but we still wanted to win the contracts, so we cut the margin very close (but still made money). Since the retailers are basically cut out of the loop, there's an automatic 20% cost saving on government bids - even without interfering with the manufacturer's margin - and most of that may be given up as well. It would not be uncommon to see a boat that retails for $100,000 going to a government agency for about $65,000 - or less if the outboard and accessory manufacturers wanted to aggressively "participate" as well.
Lastly, in Oregon, where a police officer can be punished or fired for accepting a free piece of beef jerky, there is nothing which prohibits AGENCIES from accepting gifts from the private sector. That's how we get (or got) DARE cars, for example. It's also how that beautiful 25' Outrage was restored for the (Ohio?) fire department. If a radar manufacturer wanted to use a law enforcement boat as a "test" for a new radar system, that could probably be arranged too.
jimh posted 03-02-2003 02:30 PM ET (US)
I need to correct a statement I made earlier in which I compared the relative sizes of France and Ohio.
Ohio has about 11,000,000 people. France has about 61,000,000.
The size of Ohio has about 41,000 square miles of area. France has about 213,000 square miles.
Unfortunately, France has a history of cooperating more with its enemies than it does with its friends.
witsendfl posted 03-02-2003 04:58 PM ET (US)
Watched a show on the HISTORY CHANNEL last night about US Customes. Lots of Whaler shots
Very Large Intrepid, Comes w/ 4 yew 4 225 HP Mercs on the back. WOW Talk about a GO FAST boat
witsendfl JimK
lhg posted 03-02-2003 07:37 PM ET (US)
JimK - Those Customs boats are Midnight Express 39's, made in Pompano Beach FL. I happen to know the fellow who owns the Company, a previous long time Mercury Dealer. I think they do about 75.
witsendfl posted 03-02-2003 07:41 PM ET (US)
lhg, Larry
I could not make out a name on them Looked just like a Intrepid. With the introduction into the Commercial Market, I figured it was them.
Only 75 MPH. Your kidding QUADRUPLE 225's. Sounds like a government underestimation to me ! They where FLYIN on the TV show
Thanks
witsendfl JimK
Sammy posted 03-03-2003 12:15 AM ET (US)
For the last 50 years (at least), many of the foreign policy stances taken by the French government have seemed to range somewhere between curious and aggravating (to be polite), often with a bent toward the self-destructive.
Even so, there are a number of French individuals who made major contributions in the fields of engineering, technology and manufacturing over the last century. An excellent read on one of those individuals is 'Louis Renault - A Biography' by Anthony Rhodes (Harcourt, Brace and World - 1969).
The contributions he made to the development of automotive and aviation industires (along with brothers Fernand and Marcel) is amazing.
Of course the company and its products slowly went to hell after the French government seized control of the firm after WWII.
Sorry, couldn't work in a Whaler angle on this one. sammy
tabasco posted 03-03-2003 08:32 AM ET (US)
In the past people have questioned why "Tabasco" as a user name? Well since my last name is "Beaugrand" in French meaning beautiful & large and the feeling about the french in this thread, I am glad I am known as "TABASCO" ;-)
jameso posted 03-03-2003 01:41 PM ET (US)
jimh,
Couple of questions, or please help me with my History lessons.
Was not the Concorde made by a joint English/French venture. This was after the US aerospace industry did most of the design work (called the SST)? The aircraft was not built here because we did not think it was profitable. And I think rightly so
High speed train? I think I rode the Shinkansen (Bullet Train) in Japan during the late 60's It was the first high speed rail at 130 or so miles an hour. They now routinely travel 170 or more.
The radial tire? According to this was invented in England in 1913.
http://www.treblekicker.org/money/consumer/autos/mauto976.htm
The Atomic bomb, yeah, yeah they did invent that one. They even built the B-29 that delivered the first two. We just can't figure how they got it out of New Mexico without our knowlege.
With a smile, wishing I were in Paris (TX)Jim Armstrong
Capt_Tidy posted 03-06-2003 10:44 PM ET (US)
Larry... did you indicate that cops on Lake Tahoe are using 2 strokes? That would be a wonderful slap-in-the-face for the 4 stroke regs here in CA.
Ian
captbone posted 03-06-2003 11:55 PM ET (US)
The midnight express U.S. Customs boats just switch to the merc 250 efi on most of their customs boats. It turns out that the Optimax's gave them too much trouble.

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Author	Topic: Intrepid: The New Whaler?
Knockerjoe	posted 02-26-2003 11:34 AM ET (US) According to a city official I talked to here in Broward county Florida, Intrepid boats are making an aggresive push into the commercial market. Intrepid just about gave away their boats to Broward County which has traditonally used Boston Whaler for many years. These boats are used for the police and consevation people. I think he said they just bought about 25 vessels. I would suspect that their Whalers will be coming up for auction soon.
lhg	posted 02-26-2003 02:32 PM ET (US) There is rumor out there that Bombardier is also giving away Evinrude Ficht's for law enforcement boats. All the others probably try to do it also. [Moderator's note; The so-called rumor was completely contradicted when Florida's State Government published a price list for motors that showed that Mercury gave the deepest discounts and priced their motors below all other brands--jimh] The new Ft Lauderdale police Intrepids have Evinrude Ficht's on them, coincidentally. All of this is standard business these days for enforcement boats. I seem to remember that the Lake Tahoe police seem to go with the lowest bidder also. First, I saw a big press release that they had "selected" Honda for their boats, for clean 4-stroke power. Honda made a big deal out it with theri advertizing. But then, the next year, after Bombardier bought OMC, they announced they had changed their mind about Honda, and "selected" Ficht's, for clean two stroke power. Bombardier made a big deal out it for their advertizing. I'll bet the engines were "gifts". I think all of this buusiness marketing is OK when the engine choice is not critical, so why not go with the "flow". Money is short all over these days for law enforcement. But I recently learned that is not so with the US Customs, who really need their boats to run fast and reliably. They evidently have rejected Optimax and Ficht, and are now buying Mercury EFI's for their offshore go-fasts. Buying "American" could be an issue there as well.
Bigshot	posted 02-26-2003 02:40 PM ET (US) I know the local CG in NJ went to Honda one year, people complained and back to OMC the next year. I do not know if law enforcement can take gifts like that, some may consider that a BRIBE.
TRAFFICLAWYER	posted 02-26-2003 03:47 PM ET (US) larry: Let me give you a clue, there is no longer in todays global economy anything that relates to 'buying American'. This is a bygone and meaningless slogan. My brand new GMC Sierra has an Isuzu motor and who only knows where it was assembled.
Knockerjoe	posted 02-26-2003 04:33 PM ET (US) I think you guys are missing the point a little here. If you are fortunate enough to take a look at an Intrepid close up you will see what Brunswick has been missing. These boats are quality with a great layout, you know like the way they used to build our classics. Yes it is great to get these boats cheaper than whaler but if Brunswick is not careful these will become the "new" whaler the industry standard.
dgp	posted 02-26-2003 05:28 PM ET (US) Your new GM / Isuzu DuraMax was made in the new factory in Poland.
PSW	posted 02-26-2003 06:01 PM ET (US) Talked to CG buyer while spending the weekend this last summer in the San Juan islands. He stated they take offers from everybody and look at price, reliability, and commercial warranty. Also said down side of 4strokes is you are always pulling them out of the water to change oil. The only motor they did not shop around was the 250 Merc EFI. He said for speed it is the only choice. The boats that you see quite a bit around here is the aluminum with composite ribbing on the side like a RIB. They are made in the local area. They are light, high performance, and utility. That's the report for here in the NW. Oh by the way the CG guy was on his brand new GW with Yamaha power. PSW
lhg	posted 02-26-2003 07:15 PM ET (US) Traffic - To me, buying American not only means where the product was manufactured, but to which country the Corporate profits go. As we all know, US corporate profits keep our economy going. They've been pretty lean lately. When you buy your GMC, the profits go to Detroit. When I buy a Mercury or Boston Whaler, the profits go to Brunswick, a US Corp in Chicago. When you buy a Yamaha, the profits go home to Japan. And I'm glad the French don't make outboards these days! So when one buys a joint venture Mercury/Yamaha 60HP 4-stroke, powerhead built by Mercury over here, you have a choice where you want the corporate profit to go, our economy or Japan's. So I buy black. Yamaha of America is a shell, and has even been accused (by US Government) of intnetionally buying Yamaha engines and other products at a loss from the homeland, so that they don't have to pay any American taxes on the profits. This keeps all the taxes on profits at home, so we get nothing. This I do not like. Getting back to knockerjoe's original comments, over the last few years it has become painfully evident the Whalers are no longer the commercial patrol craft of choice. It seems that fewer and fewer government agencies are buying them. Whaler's new models since 1991 have simply not captured the commercial/government market, which is why the older hulls are still in the line. Rib's have destroyed the market for the small models besides.
TRAFFICLAWYER	posted 02-26-2003 07:25 PM ET (US) Larry: I'm totally with you on the French!
jimh	posted 02-26-2003 08:19 PM ET (US) Oui! Oui!
Dick	posted 02-26-2003 08:51 PM ET (US) Whaler patrol boats are still alive and deployed. A contingent of the Coast Guard were just deployed from here in Seattle with their BW 25s headed to the Gulf. Dick
j_h_nimrod	posted 02-27-2003 02:33 AM ET (US) I know the old Evinruude and the new Bombardier both have offered their engines to government and non-profit groups (not sure of particular requirements) at a considerable price reduction from retail.
Clark Roberts	posted 02-27-2003 07:27 AM ET (US) Larry, you said it, I believe it, and that's that! I will buy NOTHING (and I really mean NOTHING) produced in France! Happy Whalin'.. Clark,, Spruce Creek Navy
Whaletosh	posted 02-27-2003 08:06 AM ET (US) One of the reasons I went with mercs on the last 3 Whalers was because they are made by an American firm. I had a choice on two of the boats and choose Mercurys. As far as the French are concerned, I don't buy French wine, there are plenty of as good as or better choices. Many of them made here in Michigan. When I bought a new TV set at the beginning of the year you can bet it wasn't a RCA or GE. Those brands are owned and made by Thomson Electronics, a big French company. Beyond wine, cheese, and un-pasturized butter what do the French make that anybody wants to buy?
RMS	posted 02-27-2003 09:11 AM ET (US) The French? What other type of behavior would one expect from a country where a chef recently killed himself because the Michelin Guide downgraded his restaurant's rating? My apologies for being off-topic...
jameso	posted 02-27-2003 10:09 AM ET (US) Never did like snails or red wine, frogs legs on the other hand. Then can't see me buying a Renault outboard either! "Going to war without the French is like going deer hunting without an accordian." N. Boortz Hey, off subject by I feel much better. Jim
Bigshot	posted 02-27-2003 10:17 AM ET (US) On the flip side though Larry.....my Mercedes is made in Alabama. The people who built my truck were paid a decent wage and are able to buy their food and support their families. Not quite sure where the profit goes being Daimler/Chrysler but my point is American families are fed with my Mercedes. The profit goes to art collections and corporate yachts. With a GMC being built in Poland we are helping the Polish support their families and the profit comes homeside for what? If Detroit got the money why is the city half deserted and voted as one of the worst cities to reside in? I think People in TN and AL are tickled with Toyota and Honda, etc because it is supporting them, they are not cioncerned with what the company does with the profits as long as their checks clear.
jimh	posted 02-27-2003 10:37 AM ET (US) The French--What do they make? The Concorde The TGV (High Speed Train) that goes 250-MPH The Atomic Bomb The Radial Tire All from a population about the size of Ohio, I think. To portray the French as stupid, intoxicated wine drinkers ignores these technological achievements.
Bigshot	posted 02-27-2003 10:46 AM ET (US) Yup! Along with: Puegot Citroen Here is a neat link: http://inventors.about.com/cs/frenchinventors/
diveorfish	posted 02-27-2003 11:04 AM ET (US) Well what do you expect from a government worker in Broward County, they can�t even count for Christ�s sake. Remember, government workers may not always be the sharpest knives in the drawer anyway. As far as buying American, I try too for the most part but doing so out of blind loyalty can breed complacency that can result in junk products. If that occurs, the American company shouldn�t deserve our business. Currently, I�m in the market for a minivan and I�m sad to say that a certain Japanese offering is head and shoulders above its American competitors and will probably get my money. As �Trafficlaywer� already pointed out though, in this global economy it�s hard to distinguish what nationality a product is. I know that GM and Ford own significant portions of some Japanese auto makers so who knows. As far as the French are concerned, they never had anything I wanted to buy anyway. I won�t buy anything German either. I used to live in Europe and I was not real fond of them long before they pulled their latest shenanigans.
newt	posted 02-27-2003 11:55 AM ET (US) Corporate profits go to whomever owns the stock. If you want to Yamaha profits to stay American, then buy stock in Yamaha. I always laughed when people commented on my "rice burner" Nissan. That truck was made in Tennessee by American workers! Isn't Chyrsler or one of the big "American" auto makers now owned by a foreign company? I have no great love for the french (except the kissing style), but try to find a Chateau-neuf-du-Pape equivilant wine here in the states!
where2	posted 02-27-2003 12:27 PM ET (US) Engine manufacturers have been "gifting" engines for quite some time. The 25' Frontier out behind the office had a pair of 225hp Optimax's on it that Mercury took back before the boat left law enforcement duties in Lee County, FL. Anyone who can grab a CPD at a surplus auction "might" get a deal, depending on what the guy next to him wants to bid. I missed my chance to get a 2001 Johnson 70hp at a local surplus auction. I'm still guessing they went for under $1k...
Al_A_Buy	posted 02-28-2003 11:01 AM ET (US) Just a couple of comments- 1-"gifting" is prohibited in government procurement. Even the acceptance of things as trivial donuts in a meeting hosted by contractors is frowned upon. I cannot even buy my customer a beer. So the assertion that a company gave products to a government agency, even at the local level is specious at best. The company may not have made a profit on the transaction, but they are required, at least at the federal level by the FAR (Federal Acquisition Regulations), to cover their cost (known as a "buy-in"). 2 - Government Workers - Don't forget that it was government workers who designed the Saturn 5 rocket that got us to the moon, it is government workers who are on the pointy end of the spear to protect us (cops, firemen, soldiers, sailors, etc...). I am sure that in any enterprise that employs thousands of people one can find 10% who are somewhat less than capable. To generalize all government employees this way is demeaning and insulting to the 90% who are doing a great job. Flame over..... Al W.
lhg	posted 02-28-2003 03:25 PM ET (US) I agree with Al. A cheap shot at the good people that keep this country running, and safe & free was uncalled for, and not to be tolerated, here or anywhere else.
diveorfish	posted 02-28-2003 05:27 PM ET (US) Al_A_Buy, lhg and everybody else for that matter, I apologize for my cheap shot at government workers. Furthermore, even though I failed differentiate who I was referring to, I wasn�t referring to cops, firemen, soldiers and the like who I dearly love. In fact, I have been and still am a government worker for over 13 years and my jobs have literally been in direct support of the missions of fireman, peace officers and the military. As a government worker from California though, (You know, the land of nuts, fruits and a 35 billion dollar budget deficit) I have seen way more than my share of waste, fraud, abuse and just plain incompetence in the government.
alkar	posted 03-02-2003 10:48 AM ET (US) On government workers: I am a government worker and have been for most, but not all, of my working life. I'm proud of the work I do and, for the most part, the people I work with. Having said that, we government types are subject to silly regulations and restrictions that are implemented by pandering politicians. The decisions they make are often incomprehensible for rational, linear thinkers. When policy decisions are disclosed, they inevitably brand the powerless 99% of us as idiots. For example, my state and county governments are trying to cope with enormous revenue reductions. As a result, we're seeing wholesale layoffs of police, nurses, mental health staff, corrections officers, and many, many others. However, we still have a woman employed full-time as a "Diversity Analyst". Nobody seems to know exactly what this woman does. She's well-versed in the speech of political correctness, and she sends out e-mails telling employees about upcoming parades and "diversity celebrations", but she doesn't appear to actually DO anything. Nevertheless, you can bet that she'll remain employed long after men and women of all colors have been let go from their essential positions in law enforcement and nursing. Of course, when we ask the public for the money replace the officers who have been laid off, you can be sure that some media type will find the money we waste on our "analyst" and use it as proof that we have more money than we need. Meanwhile, the state of Oregon has fewer State Police officers then we had 25 years ago - and we just lost another 100 or so. On government boat contracts: During my brief foray into the private sector I worked for a boat manufacturer. I reviewed several law enforcement contracts, and we were encouraged to bid them aggressively (for all the obvious reasons). The bid requests from government agencies are extremely specific, and the boats are often more expensive to build, but we still wanted to win the contracts, so we cut the margin very close (but still made money). Since the retailers are basically cut out of the loop, there's an automatic 20% cost saving on government bids - even without interfering with the manufacturer's margin - and most of that may be given up as well. It would not be uncommon to see a boat that retails for $100,000 going to a government agency for about $65,000 - or less if the outboard and accessory manufacturers wanted to aggressively "participate" as well. Lastly, in Oregon, where a police officer can be punished or fired for accepting a free piece of beef jerky, there is nothing which prohibits AGENCIES from accepting gifts from the private sector. That's how we get (or got) DARE cars, for example. It's also how that beautiful 25' Outrage was restored for the (Ohio?) fire department. If a radar manufacturer wanted to use a law enforcement boat as a "test" for a new radar system, that could probably be arranged too.
jimh	posted 03-02-2003 02:30 PM ET (US) I need to correct a statement I made earlier in which I compared the relative sizes of France and Ohio. Ohio has about 11,000,000 people. France has about 61,000,000. The size of Ohio has about 41,000 square miles of area. France has about 213,000 square miles. Unfortunately, France has a history of cooperating more with its enemies than it does with its friends.
witsendfl	posted 03-02-2003 04:58 PM ET (US) Watched a show on the HISTORY CHANNEL last night about US Customes. Lots of Whaler shots Very Large Intrepid, Comes w/ 4 yew 4 225 HP Mercs on the back. WOW Talk about a GO FAST boat witsendfl JimK
lhg	posted 03-02-2003 07:37 PM ET (US) JimK - Those Customs boats are Midnight Express 39's, made in Pompano Beach FL. I happen to know the fellow who owns the Company, a previous long time Mercury Dealer. I think they do about 75.
witsendfl	posted 03-02-2003 07:41 PM ET (US) lhg, Larry I could not make out a name on them Looked just like a Intrepid. With the introduction into the Commercial Market, I figured it was them. Only 75 MPH. Your kidding QUADRUPLE 225's. Sounds like a government underestimation to me ! They where FLYIN on the TV show Thanks witsendfl JimK
Sammy	posted 03-03-2003 12:15 AM ET (US) For the last 50 years (at least), many of the foreign policy stances taken by the French government have seemed to range somewhere between curious and aggravating (to be polite), often with a bent toward the self-destructive. Even so, there are a number of French individuals who made major contributions in the fields of engineering, technology and manufacturing over the last century. An excellent read on one of those individuals is 'Louis Renault - A Biography' by Anthony Rhodes (Harcourt, Brace and World - 1969). The contributions he made to the development of automotive and aviation industires (along with brothers Fernand and Marcel) is amazing. Of course the company and its products slowly went to hell after the French government seized control of the firm after WWII. Sorry, couldn't work in a Whaler angle on this one. sammy
tabasco	posted 03-03-2003 08:32 AM ET (US) In the past people have questioned why "Tabasco" as a user name? Well since my last name is "Beaugrand" in French meaning beautiful & large and the feeling about the french in this thread, I am glad I am known as "TABASCO" ;-)
jameso	posted 03-03-2003 01:41 PM ET (US) jimh, Couple of questions, or please help me with my History lessons. Was not the Concorde made by a joint English/French venture. This was after the US aerospace industry did most of the design work (called the SST)? The aircraft was not built here because we did not think it was profitable. And I think rightly so High speed train? I think I rode the Shinkansen (Bullet Train) in Japan during the late 60's It was the first high speed rail at 130 or so miles an hour. They now routinely travel 170 or more. The radial tire? According to this was invented in England in 1913. http://www.treblekicker.org/money/consumer/autos/mauto976.htm The Atomic bomb, yeah, yeah they did invent that one. They even built the B-29 that delivered the first two. We just can't figure how they got it out of New Mexico without our knowlege. With a smile, wishing I were in Paris (TX)Jim Armstrong
Capt_Tidy	posted 03-06-2003 10:44 PM ET (US) Larry... did you indicate that cops on Lake Tahoe are using 2 strokes? That would be a wonderful slap-in-the-face for the 4 stroke regs here in CA. Ian
captbone	posted 03-06-2003 11:55 PM ET (US) The midnight express U.S. Customs boats just switch to the merc 250 efi on most of their customs boats. It turns out that the Optimax's gave them too much trouble.