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Author Topic:   M170 in Semi Rough Seas

LabRtvr posted 04-16-2003 07:54 PM ET (US)
Please help out a first time boat owner!Out on the mouth of Cheasapeke Bay today seas were running 2-3 feet with winds 15 to 20. The Montauk 170 rode great with the exception that in order to get on plane at around 3000 rpm the boat was running too fast for the seas but if slowed down to around 2500 the bow would rise up in the wind and speed would drop off considerably. These are the sea conditions that I will probably see most--am I doing something wrong or should I consider a prop pitch change?
dscew posted 04-16-2003 08:24 PM ET (US)
I don't know about 2-3 foot seas, being from Minnesota, but for a first time boat owner, you sure made the right choice in boats!
Clark Roberts posted 04-16-2003 09:00 PM ET (US)
You may consider a prop with less pitch (more rpm/mph) and also a greater diameter for better "grip" on water... if you don't already have one, a doel-fin should help you maintain more favorable attitude at lower speed... Happy Whalin'... Clark... Spruce Creek Navy
jimh posted 04-16-2003 09:15 PM ET (US)
I think every small boat owner has this problem. The best way to cure it is to get a bigger boat!
I remember a day spent crossing Georgian Bay, about 60-miles of open water, in an 18-Outrage with four people aboard and a lot of gear, and the waves right on the nose. It took a lot of careful throttle control to keep the boat on plane in those waves, and it was not exactly a pleasant ride.
About midway across the bay we met a classic old motor yacht about 80-feet long going downwind with the waves. I started to think about how much more pleasant the ride was on that boat!
Many people have added trim tabs to help, but that is quite rare on a 17-foot hull. More common is the hydro-foil approach, as Clark mentions, in which you add a Dol-Fin or similar appendage to your cavitation plate.
Good luck,
--jimh
whitefoot posted 04-17-2003 01:52 AM ET (US)
Labs rock!
I run in the Gulf of Mexico area and encounter 2-3's all the time in coastal bays. I think once you get comfortable piloting your boat, running on step in those conditions will not seem way to fast for the conditions. What I usually do is get on plane and the boat skips across the top of the wave crests. I've found this is the most comfortable and efficient way to handle 2-3's. This method, however, may not be the best way for you to handle the waves if you are not yet comfortable piloting you boat. You have to keep you hand on the throttle and be prepared to throttle down if you come upon a larger wave, or there is too large a wave coming and you feel you are not going to land on its crest. Don't do this if you are not completely comfortable doing so, but the Montauk can definitely handle the situation if you can.
I have a 1983 17' Montauk with a Johnson 100-no hydrofoil.
BugsyG posted 04-17-2003 06:19 AM ET (US)
A good thing that I do that might help, is that when I start off, I have the engine all the way down. Then once I hit the throttle up to planing speed, I adjust the trim for better fuel efficiancy, and speed according to weight in the boat.
I really never had that problem. To me, the "
smirkless" hulls like mine do better in following seas. Corner-cutting isn't to bad either. Thank you
JAZZ
mustang7nh posted 04-17-2003 07:07 AM ET (US)
I echo Jimh sentiments. Only real cure is a bigger boat. I run in 2-3' regularly and when there is a strong wind it gets to be really a pain. I tend to keep landing on top of the crests and it hurts me body. The boats will take more than you can and they are plenty safe, but comfort is another matter. I took out a 25 Revenge yesterday and what a dream. Felt like I was in a caddy. On a final note, the comfort factor is not specifc to Whalers per se. I've been in Mako, Proline, and others and 17-20 foot boats are not generally comfortable in a head sea (tight chop with steep wave face). Enjoy your boat, some of it you'll get used to and learn how to work around. Good luck.
TRIDENT posted 04-17-2003 10:35 AM ET (US)
Try a Doel Fin or a StingRay on your boat. It will allow you to stay on plane at lower speeds/RPMs. Gives you a wider range to find the comfort zone. They are about $30, and easy to install. Happy Whalin'!
Bigshot posted 04-17-2003 11:05 AM ET (US)
Not many boats will stay on plane under 3k. You have to trim it under and do your best. Doel-fin will help but I believe it is more "driver related" like said above.
LabRtvr posted 04-17-2003 03:53 PM ET (US)
Thanks everyone for your replies,if the weather cooperates I head out for some boat handling practice this weekend--the flounder are starting to show up.
Salmon Tub posted 04-18-2003 02:15 PM ET (US)
I have the smirked montauk with a 90 hp. Running around in SF Bay on just about any summer afternoon will guarantee you a run in with waves of that size. The worst are often in two area, just north of the Rich./San Rafael bridge, and in an area called Raccoon Straights. Both are wicked when it is an outgoing tide. The waves get to be 2-3' easy, and they also get stacked. When going into the waves, if you go slow, the boat rides the waves, and gives the impression that it may pitch-pole. If going on plane, it is o.k., but you still get the pounding, depending on where you land. Then I learned the trick! one day I got, mad, just plain P.O.ed, mad, mad, mad!!! I put the boat dead into the wind and gunned it, thinking that I would go out in a blaze of fiberglass and foam. I figured that the pounding came from the speed and that with more speed would come more pounding. Guess what, I was wrong, that is when I found an interesting phenomenon. The exact speed I go at will depend on the size and period of waves and vary from day to day, but if I go faster, between 24-28 mph, I noticed that the boat will tend to jump from crest to crest, rather than of the crest into the through, and up the next crest. In other words, the hull will lift off one crest, rise, and fall onto the next crest which, acts more like a cushion than the through, and gives just enough lift to send me to the next crest. This results in a suprisingly gentle ride. The downside is that the boat's handling becomes really touchy and you have to pay 100% attention to what you are doing. The result is getting across the stuff faster and much less pounding. You need to keep a sharp eye out for rogue waves, wakes of ferries, and other abnormalities in the pattern of the waves, but other than that, it seems to me that it is better than bruising through the stuff. Oh, ya, you need to keep the engine trimmed in as much as possible to keep the angle of the hull as horizontal as possible.
jimh posted 04-18-2003 04:34 PM ET (US)
The notion that your ride will be smoother if your boat is involved with more than one wave at a time is true. The problem is that with a 17-foot boat you need waves that are very short wavelenth to be able to have two or more working on the hull at once.
This same principle is often applied to the design of large passenger ships, which is how the SS FRANCE wound up being over 1,000 feet long; the designer wanted to be sure that the hull was always involved with three ocean waves at one time.
Taylor posted 04-18-2003 05:12 PM ET (US)
Salmon Tub - Do you adjust your speed depending on the relative postion you come down on the next wave, faster if before the crest, slower if after? Also, when you see that rogue wave, do you just pull back on the trottle, or what?
The Chesapeake Explorer posted 04-20-2003 10:46 PM ET (US)
Mouth of the Chesapeake? Norfolk area..15-20 mph winds.. off Cape Henry? 2-3 foot seas can give you a beating in any 17 ft boat. Yes I have to slow down all the time in my 17' Montauk. The Chesapeake Bay has a rep for steep chop if the wind is blowing. The tops are close together . Thats because the bay is shallow. A three foot bay chop is a rougher ride any day then three foot swells on the open ocean. Slow down and take it easy, you will still be surprised how fast you will go in rough water. When it gets bad I slow up to 2000 -2200 RPM..Tractor gear I call it..burns a lot of gas bow high but will crawl through all kinds of nasty stuff and at a decent speed 8-12mph at that! And not beat you up or the boat.
osillator posted 04-20-2003 11:00 PM ET (US)
Lab, It does take a while to get to TRUST the 170. I spent all summer in the atlantic doing it, but trim and speed are the secret.
At times you really need to be going faster than you tend to think, the 170 can do some incredible things for its size.
One huge comfort hint: Use the seat as a leaning post in choppy water and hang on to the wheel and throttle. Once you get used to it it can really be fun in some rough water!
tabasco posted 04-21-2003 07:09 AM ET (US)
Here is the secret........You need enough speed to leap though the air and land on the A$$ end of the boat..........it won't seem half as hard coming down ;-)
Beaner posted 04-21-2003 10:09 AM ET (US)

How should the engine be trimmed on the 170 in semi-rough seas? I was told to trim all the way down in rough water. Was this the right advice?
Salmon Tub posted 04-21-2003 01:34 PM ET (US)
Once I am out of those areas, I can often do several things at once, like rig the rods, look at the fish-finder, look for birds and bait, with the throttle left alone at cruise speed, but when I am in that stuff, I drop everything, one hand on the wheel, one hand on the throttle, eyes only straight ahead, and all attention on the waves. It is not just about throttle, it is a combination of everything. I definately work the throttle constantly, adjusting for the what is ahead of me, the surface is constantly changing. I will work the steering too, depending on what is infront of me. It is not perfect, nor am I and I still get the occasional slam from unforseen stuff. The worst is when you have a wake crossing the wind waves, these are the hardest to predict. It is still better than the constant pounding of going slowly through the waves. I have never tried to find it, but I am sure there is a point that is too fast, at which the ride will be just way too squirely. Also, this does not apply to following seas, nor to quartering seas either.
John W posted 04-21-2003 03:48 PM ET (US)
I have no experience with the M170, but after having hydraulic trim tabs on a 17' boat, I will never have another small boat without them. They allow you to keep the bow down & plane at slower speeds, and they radically improve the ride when navigating in a chop at any planing speed. They also allow you to heel the boat AWAY from the wind when facing a quartering sea, as opposed to a boat's natural tendancy to heel INTO the wind...this makes for a smoother & much drier ride in any small boat. This tendancy to heel into the wind is less pronounced in a classic Montauk than it is in deeper vee boats, but I'll bet tabs would improve the ride on your M170 in any case.
I would highly reccommend Bennet tabs to anyone.
Owen Schultz posted 04-21-2003 05:07 PM ET (US)
http://www.bennetttrimtabs.com/
jimh posted 04-21-2003 11:51 PM ET (US)
Also, ignore any advice that people may offer that tells you to take the waves on your bow quarter. That is the worst place to take waves in a Boston Whaler. The boat will be more comfortable taking the waves right on the nose.
If you try to take the waves on the bow quarter you will end up slamming the upwind side of the bow, which is a fairly large and flat area, right into the waves. Taking them on the nose lets the vee of the bow slice into the wave, and generally give a better ride.
I am still laughing at Bugsy/JAZZ/Joe's comments that he doesn't have this problem because he is always going down wind. (How does he get back home?) But this reprises an old saying of British yachtmen, who note that "Gentlemen never sail upwind."
lhg posted 04-22-2003 12:07 AM ET (US)
Nick - My 18 Outrage, with twin 115 Mercurys, planes and cruises on plane at 2000 rpm, using 24" pitch props! Speed can be as low as 18 mph. 30 MPH equals about 2600 RPM.
bsmotril posted 04-23-2003 09:30 AM ET (US)
One thing that helps is to change your mindset while steering into the waves in rough water. The boat will land hard if not level, so think in terms of an airplane leveling the wings. If the boat leans right, steer slightly left to keep it level. You can make your course corrections in the troughs, or lulls between waves. Making the boat land on the keel level will make the ride a lot better.
I also agree with those who suggest adding a doelphin or Stingray fin. Both work well in this type of situation and magnify the trim effect of the motor. They will let you maintain a slower planing speed with out the RPMs dropping off. This is also where a V6 will shine over a 4 banger. The added torque and cubic inches let a V6 maintain RPM up the steep slopes and not bog down and fall off plane. I wish this hull would have been designed to accomodate one.
BillS

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Author	Topic: M170 in Semi Rough Seas
LabRtvr	posted 04-16-2003 07:54 PM ET (US) Please help out a first time boat owner!Out on the mouth of Cheasapeke Bay today seas were running 2-3 feet with winds 15 to 20. The Montauk 170 rode great with the exception that in order to get on plane at around 3000 rpm the boat was running too fast for the seas but if slowed down to around 2500 the bow would rise up in the wind and speed would drop off considerably. These are the sea conditions that I will probably see most--am I doing something wrong or should I consider a prop pitch change?
dscew	posted 04-16-2003 08:24 PM ET (US) I don't know about 2-3 foot seas, being from Minnesota, but for a first time boat owner, you sure made the right choice in boats!
Clark Roberts	posted 04-16-2003 09:00 PM ET (US) You may consider a prop with less pitch (more rpm/mph) and also a greater diameter for better "grip" on water... if you don't already have one, a doel-fin should help you maintain more favorable attitude at lower speed... Happy Whalin'... Clark... Spruce Creek Navy
jimh	posted 04-16-2003 09:15 PM ET (US) I think every small boat owner has this problem. The best way to cure it is to get a bigger boat! I remember a day spent crossing Georgian Bay, about 60-miles of open water, in an 18-Outrage with four people aboard and a lot of gear, and the waves right on the nose. It took a lot of careful throttle control to keep the boat on plane in those waves, and it was not exactly a pleasant ride. About midway across the bay we met a classic old motor yacht about 80-feet long going downwind with the waves. I started to think about how much more pleasant the ride was on that boat! Many people have added trim tabs to help, but that is quite rare on a 17-foot hull. More common is the hydro-foil approach, as Clark mentions, in which you add a Dol-Fin or similar appendage to your cavitation plate. Good luck, --jimh
whitefoot	posted 04-17-2003 01:52 AM ET (US) Labs rock! I run in the Gulf of Mexico area and encounter 2-3's all the time in coastal bays. I think once you get comfortable piloting your boat, running on step in those conditions will not seem way to fast for the conditions. What I usually do is get on plane and the boat skips across the top of the wave crests. I've found this is the most comfortable and efficient way to handle 2-3's. This method, however, may not be the best way for you to handle the waves if you are not yet comfortable piloting you boat. You have to keep you hand on the throttle and be prepared to throttle down if you come upon a larger wave, or there is too large a wave coming and you feel you are not going to land on its crest. Don't do this if you are not completely comfortable doing so, but the Montauk can definitely handle the situation if you can. I have a 1983 17' Montauk with a Johnson 100-no hydrofoil.
BugsyG	posted 04-17-2003 06:19 AM ET (US) A good thing that I do that might help, is that when I start off, I have the engine all the way down. Then once I hit the throttle up to planing speed, I adjust the trim for better fuel efficiancy, and speed according to weight in the boat. I really never had that problem. To me, the " smirkless" hulls like mine do better in following seas. Corner-cutting isn't to bad either. Thank you JAZZ
mustang7nh	posted 04-17-2003 07:07 AM ET (US) I echo Jimh sentiments. Only real cure is a bigger boat. I run in 2-3' regularly and when there is a strong wind it gets to be really a pain. I tend to keep landing on top of the crests and it hurts me body. The boats will take more than you can and they are plenty safe, but comfort is another matter. I took out a 25 Revenge yesterday and what a dream. Felt like I was in a caddy. On a final note, the comfort factor is not specifc to Whalers per se. I've been in Mako, Proline, and others and 17-20 foot boats are not generally comfortable in a head sea (tight chop with steep wave face). Enjoy your boat, some of it you'll get used to and learn how to work around. Good luck.
TRIDENT	posted 04-17-2003 10:35 AM ET (US) Try a Doel Fin or a StingRay on your boat. It will allow you to stay on plane at lower speeds/RPMs. Gives you a wider range to find the comfort zone. They are about $30, and easy to install. Happy Whalin'!
Bigshot	posted 04-17-2003 11:05 AM ET (US) Not many boats will stay on plane under 3k. You have to trim it under and do your best. Doel-fin will help but I believe it is more "driver related" like said above.
LabRtvr	posted 04-17-2003 03:53 PM ET (US) Thanks everyone for your replies,if the weather cooperates I head out for some boat handling practice this weekend--the flounder are starting to show up.
Salmon Tub	posted 04-18-2003 02:15 PM ET (US) I have the smirked montauk with a 90 hp. Running around in SF Bay on just about any summer afternoon will guarantee you a run in with waves of that size. The worst are often in two area, just north of the Rich./San Rafael bridge, and in an area called Raccoon Straights. Both are wicked when it is an outgoing tide. The waves get to be 2-3' easy, and they also get stacked. When going into the waves, if you go slow, the boat rides the waves, and gives the impression that it may pitch-pole. If going on plane, it is o.k., but you still get the pounding, depending on where you land. Then I learned the trick! one day I got, mad, just plain P.O.ed, mad, mad, mad!!! I put the boat dead into the wind and gunned it, thinking that I would go out in a blaze of fiberglass and foam. I figured that the pounding came from the speed and that with more speed would come more pounding. Guess what, I was wrong, that is when I found an interesting phenomenon. The exact speed I go at will depend on the size and period of waves and vary from day to day, but if I go faster, between 24-28 mph, I noticed that the boat will tend to jump from crest to crest, rather than of the crest into the through, and up the next crest. In other words, the hull will lift off one crest, rise, and fall onto the next crest which, acts more like a cushion than the through, and gives just enough lift to send me to the next crest. This results in a suprisingly gentle ride. The downside is that the boat's handling becomes really touchy and you have to pay 100% attention to what you are doing. The result is getting across the stuff faster and much less pounding. You need to keep a sharp eye out for rogue waves, wakes of ferries, and other abnormalities in the pattern of the waves, but other than that, it seems to me that it is better than bruising through the stuff. Oh, ya, you need to keep the engine trimmed in as much as possible to keep the angle of the hull as horizontal as possible.
jimh	posted 04-18-2003 04:34 PM ET (US) The notion that your ride will be smoother if your boat is involved with more than one wave at a time is true. The problem is that with a 17-foot boat you need waves that are very short wavelenth to be able to have two or more working on the hull at once. This same principle is often applied to the design of large passenger ships, which is how the SS FRANCE wound up being over 1,000 feet long; the designer wanted to be sure that the hull was always involved with three ocean waves at one time.
Taylor	posted 04-18-2003 05:12 PM ET (US) Salmon Tub - Do you adjust your speed depending on the relative postion you come down on the next wave, faster if before the crest, slower if after? Also, when you see that rogue wave, do you just pull back on the trottle, or what?
The Chesapeake Explorer	posted 04-20-2003 10:46 PM ET (US) Mouth of the Chesapeake? Norfolk area..15-20 mph winds.. off Cape Henry? 2-3 foot seas can give you a beating in any 17 ft boat. Yes I have to slow down all the time in my 17' Montauk. The Chesapeake Bay has a rep for steep chop if the wind is blowing. The tops are close together . Thats because the bay is shallow. A three foot bay chop is a rougher ride any day then three foot swells on the open ocean. Slow down and take it easy, you will still be surprised how fast you will go in rough water. When it gets bad I slow up to 2000 -2200 RPM..Tractor gear I call it..burns a lot of gas bow high but will crawl through all kinds of nasty stuff and at a decent speed 8-12mph at that! And not beat you up or the boat.
osillator	posted 04-20-2003 11:00 PM ET (US) Lab, It does take a while to get to TRUST the 170. I spent all summer in the atlantic doing it, but trim and speed are the secret. At times you really need to be going faster than you tend to think, the 170 can do some incredible things for its size. One huge comfort hint: Use the seat as a leaning post in choppy water and hang on to the wheel and throttle. Once you get used to it it can really be fun in some rough water!
tabasco	posted 04-21-2003 07:09 AM ET (US) Here is the secret........You need enough speed to leap though the air and land on the A$$ end of the boat..........it won't seem half as hard coming down ;-)
Beaner	posted 04-21-2003 10:09 AM ET (US) How should the engine be trimmed on the 170 in semi-rough seas? I was told to trim all the way down in rough water. Was this the right advice?
Salmon Tub	posted 04-21-2003 01:34 PM ET (US) Once I am out of those areas, I can often do several things at once, like rig the rods, look at the fish-finder, look for birds and bait, with the throttle left alone at cruise speed, but when I am in that stuff, I drop everything, one hand on the wheel, one hand on the throttle, eyes only straight ahead, and all attention on the waves. It is not just about throttle, it is a combination of everything. I definately work the throttle constantly, adjusting for the what is ahead of me, the surface is constantly changing. I will work the steering too, depending on what is infront of me. It is not perfect, nor am I and I still get the occasional slam from unforseen stuff. The worst is when you have a wake crossing the wind waves, these are the hardest to predict. It is still better than the constant pounding of going slowly through the waves. I have never tried to find it, but I am sure there is a point that is too fast, at which the ride will be just way too squirely. Also, this does not apply to following seas, nor to quartering seas either.
John W	posted 04-21-2003 03:48 PM ET (US) I have no experience with the M170, but after having hydraulic trim tabs on a 17' boat, I will never have another small boat without them. They allow you to keep the bow down & plane at slower speeds, and they radically improve the ride when navigating in a chop at any planing speed. They also allow you to heel the boat AWAY from the wind when facing a quartering sea, as opposed to a boat's natural tendancy to heel INTO the wind...this makes for a smoother & much drier ride in any small boat. This tendancy to heel into the wind is less pronounced in a classic Montauk than it is in deeper vee boats, but I'll bet tabs would improve the ride on your M170 in any case. I would highly reccommend Bennet tabs to anyone.
Owen Schultz	posted 04-21-2003 05:07 PM ET (US) http://www.bennetttrimtabs.com/
jimh	posted 04-21-2003 11:51 PM ET (US) Also, ignore any advice that people may offer that tells you to take the waves on your bow quarter. That is the worst place to take waves in a Boston Whaler. The boat will be more comfortable taking the waves right on the nose. If you try to take the waves on the bow quarter you will end up slamming the upwind side of the bow, which is a fairly large and flat area, right into the waves. Taking them on the nose lets the vee of the bow slice into the wave, and generally give a better ride. I am still laughing at Bugsy/JAZZ/Joe's comments that he doesn't have this problem because he is always going down wind. (How does he get back home?) But this reprises an old saying of British yachtmen, who note that "Gentlemen never sail upwind."
lhg	posted 04-22-2003 12:07 AM ET (US) Nick - My 18 Outrage, with twin 115 Mercurys, planes and cruises on plane at 2000 rpm, using 24" pitch props! Speed can be as low as 18 mph. 30 MPH equals about 2600 RPM.
bsmotril	posted 04-23-2003 09:30 AM ET (US) One thing that helps is to change your mindset while steering into the waves in rough water. The boat will land hard if not level, so think in terms of an airplane leveling the wings. If the boat leans right, steer slightly left to keep it level. You can make your course corrections in the troughs, or lulls between waves. Making the boat land on the keel level will make the ride a lot better. I also agree with those who suggest adding a doelphin or Stingray fin. Both work well in this type of situation and magnify the trim effect of the motor. They will let you maintain a slower planing speed with out the RPMs dropping off. This is also where a V6 will shine over a 4 banger. The added torque and cubic inches let a V6 maintain RPM up the steep slopes and not bog down and fall off plane. I wish this hull would have been designed to accomodate one. BillS