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Author Topic:   Should all Boats have a Water/Fuel Filter

wspellenbe posted 05-28-2003 02:56 PM ET (US)
My 98 Whaler has a Honda Outboard and the underdeck fuel tank. Should all boats like this have a fuel-water separator/filter? Do they now come standard on new models?
Al_A_Buy posted 05-28-2003 03:38 PM ET (US)
In my opinion, for what ever it's worth, any boat with an installed/in-floor tank should have a fuel/water separator. This is based upon the ease of removing condensation from portable tanks as opposed to permanent tanks. In either case, it is cheap insurance.
AL W.
Sal DiMercurio posted 05-28-2003 04:12 PM ET (US)
Absolutly.
He who dosen't use a water seperator such as a Racor, in any boat, is heading for big trouble.
Believe me, that filter can save your life because when your in real rough water, all the crap thats sitting in the bottom of your tank is now being shook up like mixing a Martini up.
Any water be it condensation of just pumped from the filling station will get stopped by the filter & go straight for the bottom of the filter, a little twist of the hand & the water is dropped out of the bottom petcock.
If you don't have one, your being very cheap & foolish.
There preventative maintenance & a water seperator is just that.
Sal
dfmcintyre posted 05-28-2003 04:28 PM ET (US)
I'll also state that it's highly recommended.
I've used the Racor type for years, and the latest one, with the plastic see-through bowel is on my Outrage. It's nice to be able to look and see any water/debris.
Don
FLUKEDUKE posted 05-28-2003 05:38 PM ET (US)
YES, without question, especially if you have a built in tank. Even taking all the precautions, full tank for storage, adding fuel stabalizer, buying good fresh fuel, you're still going to get water from condensation. I just placed an order for a Racor seperator for my Outrage, a little pricey, (Boatfix.com beat everyones price), but my experience with water says the OMC original equipment seperator in the north east climate is insufficient.
Don

aubv posted 05-28-2003 07:32 PM ET (US)
Not in all cases.
I can't speak for all Mercury engines or other Mfg.'s but an additional water/fuel separator is NOT recommended on my 2001 225 HP Mercury engine. When I purchased the boat I specifically asked about putting one on. I was told it's not recommended due to possible fuel flow restrictions. I will say the filter on this engine is about the size of a small coffee cup. It is located under the cowling but right up front.
fwiw
Sal DiMercurio posted 05-28-2003 08:07 PM ET (US)
A racor with the clear bottom allows 60 gallons per hour to flow through it, if your tech told you "NOT" to put one on, he needs to go back to tech school.
Your off Pt Bonita 2 miles west of the Golden Gate, a south wind has come up, the tide is flooding, into a 6.6 high & the devil is awake at Bonita, the waves are 12 ft high & all white on the top 4 ft, they have no set pattern, their 20 ft apart & forming from right under your boat, not coming in from the open sea, their going in all directions, your really concerned if your boat will make it,.
Your only 1/4 mile from the rocks & it's the only way in, then.............the engine sputters, again she sputters & you know the filter is either full of water or just plain crap in the tank being shook loose.
I reach back & drain my Racor in about 3 seconds, while your down below looking for a filter wrench & a fresh filter & on man, you have pull the hood off the engine while the boat is pitching at 90 degree angles & white water is crashing down on the wheel house or cuddy.
Yep, thats a great idea, forget the racor, as I love living on the edge, flirting with death & a great chance of getting a date.
Don't let any one tell you a water seperator isn't recommended because thats pure BS.
Just for the record, 90% of the time, your filter clogs up in the worst place possible, no warning, just shuts off.
You better buy a seperator asap & install it or your going to regret it big time.
I know I sound sarcastic, just trying to get your attention.
Mercs fuel pumps can suck a portable tempo fuel can flat, if the vent isn't open, i'm certain it can pull fuel through a line that allows 60 gallons per hour.
Sal
BW23 posted 05-28-2003 09:18 PM ET (US)
Aubv,
I'm assuming your 225 is an Opti. My 225 EFI has a racor type filter plus the smaller one under the cowling.
I change both filters every year and carry spares with me. I never had flow problems that I'm aware of.
aubv posted 05-28-2003 10:09 PM ET (US)
Sal,
This isn't a case of not having a fuel separator it's a case of not have a second one. I answered wspellenbe question with a fact. While it is completely contrary to what I believe, it is (I'm told and may have read in the OM) what the manufacture recommends.
So, lets say we ignore the fact and put one on and now the fuel pump or injectors or some other function of the fuel system fails in your scenario. Dumping the water out of your Racor filter ain't (sorry Jim, used for affect) going to do you any good. So you better be using those three seconds to get the anchor, call for help or pray. Not necessarily in that order. If I sound sarcastic I'm. I'm trying to get your attention that it may not always be the case to have a second fuel separator.
I do know that I'm JUST smart enough to know that I don't know and don't understand everything. Seems to me that if the manufacture recommends not using an additional filter they probably have a reason.
Oh, by the way, my family ran a marina w/a gas dock for 10+ years. So if people can do it on, with, in or around boats I've probably seen it.
BW23,
Yes, it is an opti w/5 year warranty and considering the track record of the engines I follow the mfg. recommendations. The timing of this is very interesting because I'm going to be using the boat next week for the first time this year and was planning on asking the question again.
Sal DiMercurio posted 05-28-2003 11:32 PM ET (US)
Aubv,I also have a canister filter under my hood, but I would never think of owning a boat without a big Racor in front of the engine to clean the fuel before it gets to the filter in the engine.
My Evinrude has no problem pulling it's fuel through the racor which is the same resistance as no filter.
Just for the books, I commercial fished the Bering sea for 30+ years, captained for 26 years, 30 years Salmon 6 years King crab in the dead of winter & believe me, I know the importance of clean fuel being the difference between me being here today & being dead.
In 79 I [ we ] were caught 26 miles out in my older boat , thank God for Racor filters on each fuel line from each tank, 4 of em, including the one on the engine, the wind S.E. came up & went like this, 30 kts sustained, gusting to 45, 20 minutes later, sustained at 70 knts, gusting to 90, 30 minutes later sustained 110 knts, gusting to 130 knts, peaked at sustained 120 knts gusting to 140.
The boat was wood plank 2 inches thick, ribs every 10 inches, 32' long, 12' wide 18 years old with aluminum tanks which had shale on the bottom inside & had no indication until we took on that storm for 9 solid hours as the fuel pump sucked all that crud into the racors instead of the one single filter on the engine.
Had I not had them, you guys wouldn't see my name here today.
By the way, Pt Bonita is where the devil himself lives & if your engine or engine die antwhere within a mile of the point, theres no way an anchor will hold you, it would snap 3/4" nylon rope & the current runs at 6 kts with 12 footers every 20 ft & by the time the CG got there, you would be on the rocks under the cliff.
I was also told by an omc rep that the fuel pump might not be able to pull enough fuel through the Racor, that was 2 engines ago & 11 years ago.
Don't think for a minute that the engine can't pull fuel through that filter, it's very close to a filter not being there at 60 gal per hour.
I understand your feelings on the warranty but I doubt the engione would have any trouble at all pulling the fuel.
Trust me, you may only need that Racor 1 or 2 times in your life in a dangeous situation, & you will say the best money ever spent.
Good luck without it.
Sal

jimh posted 05-29-2003 10:20 AM ET (US)
Anectodal data point:
We had twin Racor filters on our sailboat with a manifold to switch either of them into the diesel fuel line to our engine. When caught in a rather nasty storm on Lake Huron the fuel was sloshing around in the tank and stired up some debris from the bottom. When we heard the diesel engine skipping a beat, we switched to the other filter. I don't we ever needed that second filter again, but it was comforting to have it.
By the way, downstream of the dual racors were two more filters. A low pressure filter just following the fuel pump and a high pressure filter following the injector pump.
However, it was a pain in the neck to keep air out that system, especially the home made portion with the dual racors. I think air in the fuel might have been the original problem with the engine running rough in the storm, too.
Sometimes less can be more.
BW23 posted 05-29-2003 10:36 AM ET (US)
Aubv,
This is a thread from a guy on the BoatUs message board. He also has a 23 Conquest with a Opti.
Hope you find it informative.
Have a safe season.
Dave

Chimoii
Member posted 04-22-2003 09:03 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've been running a 1998 225 Optimax (one of the first) for 5 seasons.
There was an initial problem of fuel starvation at idle. This was not an engine problem but a boat problem. The builder (and apparently more than one) put an in line spin on filter between tank and motor. This is often needed with previous motors. The Optimax has its own filter and the combined resistance of the two filters caused the starvation. Solution: remove the inline filter - no more problems.
I had a fuel rail replaced in the first months. It was fixed very fast and efficiently by the dealer. My search of the boards at that time didn't show this to be a common problem.
The throttle position indicators are not adjustable. After 3 years I began to get intermittent alarms. The TPIs were replaced under warranty. I think there is a solution to this on later models.
There were some problems on 2000 and 2001 models that I didn't suffer from. Do a search on Optimax and you should find them on this board. I understand that these were fixed for 2002.
The motor has been very reliable except for the above. Fuel economy is really excellent, especially compared to the EFI models. For oil it's a different story. Expect to use as much oil/mile as the older types. Apparently the oil usage drops off if you operate around 3200 rpm but who does that!
I surely would like one of the 4 strokes, either Mercury or Yamaha. There is a real price difference that would take years to recapture in fuel savings (like diesel vs. gas on an inboard). The 4 stroke is quieter. How much 'free cash' you want to spend on that is your decision. Better resale value - forget it. It sounds as though you are repowering rather than buying a new boat.
In summary, if you are going to repower and can get a good deal - do it. The difference is significant over the EFI. Mercury stands behind the motor. Don't forget your dealer. That's your most important link to good after sales service. Where are you boating?

Tom2697 posted 05-29-2003 12:58 PM ET (US)
There is a HUGE difference between a fuel filter and a fuel/water separator. Some people just don't realize this. It seems like most of you do....For those that don't: If you install two fuel filters inline, you can get a starvation condition very easily. If you install a fuel/water separator inline with a filter, you should not. There is another type of product that some people are referring to...these are the combination units that are filters AND separators. On a boat with an in-deck tank, you should always have at least one filter and one water separator. The Racor product is one of these and that is why they are pricey.
John O posted 05-29-2003 11:38 PM ET (US)
I had a water/fuel seperator put on the new 2001 75hp Merc that I just bought. This is a new motor and I do not see the down side to having the Merc OEM seperator put on.
Was this over needed?
Ps. Put in today...finally !!!!!
John F posted 05-30-2003 08:17 AM ET (US)
Interesting thread. I boat in the Chesapeake Bay, which never gets as bad as some of the descritpions I've read. I'm a firm believer in water/fuel separators based on past experience. You can get 90 gph Racors (had one on my last boat (twin 175 hp mercs). I also get the metal bowl/inboard ones. Its easy to drain them off, and I'm willing to sacrifice being able to see in the bowl for the security that I'll never break the bowl and have gas leak out. Just my thoughts.

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Author	Topic: Should all Boats have a Water/Fuel Filter
wspellenbe	posted 05-28-2003 02:56 PM ET (US) My 98 Whaler has a Honda Outboard and the underdeck fuel tank. Should all boats like this have a fuel-water separator/filter? Do they now come standard on new models?
Al_A_Buy	posted 05-28-2003 03:38 PM ET (US) In my opinion, for what ever it's worth, any boat with an installed/in-floor tank should have a fuel/water separator. This is based upon the ease of removing condensation from portable tanks as opposed to permanent tanks. In either case, it is cheap insurance. AL W.
Sal DiMercurio	posted 05-28-2003 04:12 PM ET (US) Absolutly. He who dosen't use a water seperator such as a Racor, in any boat, is heading for big trouble. Believe me, that filter can save your life because when your in real rough water, all the crap thats sitting in the bottom of your tank is now being shook up like mixing a Martini up. Any water be it condensation of just pumped from the filling station will get stopped by the filter & go straight for the bottom of the filter, a little twist of the hand & the water is dropped out of the bottom petcock. If you don't have one, your being very cheap & foolish. There preventative maintenance & a water seperator is just that. Sal
dfmcintyre	posted 05-28-2003 04:28 PM ET (US) I'll also state that it's highly recommended. I've used the Racor type for years, and the latest one, with the plastic see-through bowel is on my Outrage. It's nice to be able to look and see any water/debris. Don
FLUKEDUKE	posted 05-28-2003 05:38 PM ET (US) YES, without question, especially if you have a built in tank. Even taking all the precautions, full tank for storage, adding fuel stabalizer, buying good fresh fuel, you're still going to get water from condensation. I just placed an order for a Racor seperator for my Outrage, a little pricey, (Boatfix.com beat everyones price), but my experience with water says the OMC original equipment seperator in the north east climate is insufficient. Don
aubv	posted 05-28-2003 07:32 PM ET (US) Not in all cases. I can't speak for all Mercury engines or other Mfg.'s but an additional water/fuel separator is NOT recommended on my 2001 225 HP Mercury engine. When I purchased the boat I specifically asked about putting one on. I was told it's not recommended due to possible fuel flow restrictions. I will say the filter on this engine is about the size of a small coffee cup. It is located under the cowling but right up front. fwiw
Sal DiMercurio	posted 05-28-2003 08:07 PM ET (US) A racor with the clear bottom allows 60 gallons per hour to flow through it, if your tech told you "NOT" to put one on, he needs to go back to tech school. Your off Pt Bonita 2 miles west of the Golden Gate, a south wind has come up, the tide is flooding, into a 6.6 high & the devil is awake at Bonita, the waves are 12 ft high & all white on the top 4 ft, they have no set pattern, their 20 ft apart & forming from right under your boat, not coming in from the open sea, their going in all directions, your really concerned if your boat will make it,. Your only 1/4 mile from the rocks & it's the only way in, then.............the engine sputters, again she sputters & you know the filter is either full of water or just plain crap in the tank being shook loose. I reach back & drain my Racor in about 3 seconds, while your down below looking for a filter wrench & a fresh filter & on man, you have pull the hood off the engine while the boat is pitching at 90 degree angles & white water is crashing down on the wheel house or cuddy. Yep, thats a great idea, forget the racor, as I love living on the edge, flirting with death & a great chance of getting a date. Don't let any one tell you a water seperator isn't recommended because thats pure BS. Just for the record, 90% of the time, your filter clogs up in the worst place possible, no warning, just shuts off. You better buy a seperator asap & install it or your going to regret it big time. I know I sound sarcastic, just trying to get your attention. Mercs fuel pumps can suck a portable tempo fuel can flat, if the vent isn't open, i'm certain it can pull fuel through a line that allows 60 gallons per hour. Sal
BW23	posted 05-28-2003 09:18 PM ET (US) Aubv, I'm assuming your 225 is an Opti. My 225 EFI has a racor type filter plus the smaller one under the cowling. I change both filters every year and carry spares with me. I never had flow problems that I'm aware of.
aubv	posted 05-28-2003 10:09 PM ET (US) Sal, This isn't a case of not having a fuel separator it's a case of not have a second one. I answered wspellenbe question with a fact. While it is completely contrary to what I believe, it is (I'm told and may have read in the OM) what the manufacture recommends. So, lets say we ignore the fact and put one on and now the fuel pump or injectors or some other function of the fuel system fails in your scenario. Dumping the water out of your Racor filter ain't (sorry Jim, used for affect) going to do you any good. So you better be using those three seconds to get the anchor, call for help or pray. Not necessarily in that order. If I sound sarcastic I'm. I'm trying to get your attention that it may not always be the case to have a second fuel separator. I do know that I'm JUST smart enough to know that I don't know and don't understand everything. Seems to me that if the manufacture recommends not using an additional filter they probably have a reason. Oh, by the way, my family ran a marina w/a gas dock for 10+ years. So if people can do it on, with, in or around boats I've probably seen it. BW23, Yes, it is an opti w/5 year warranty and considering the track record of the engines I follow the mfg. recommendations. The timing of this is very interesting because I'm going to be using the boat next week for the first time this year and was planning on asking the question again.
Sal DiMercurio	posted 05-28-2003 11:32 PM ET (US) Aubv,I also have a canister filter under my hood, but I would never think of owning a boat without a big Racor in front of the engine to clean the fuel before it gets to the filter in the engine. My Evinrude has no problem pulling it's fuel through the racor which is the same resistance as no filter. Just for the books, I commercial fished the Bering sea for 30+ years, captained for 26 years, 30 years Salmon 6 years King crab in the dead of winter & believe me, I know the importance of clean fuel being the difference between me being here today & being dead. In 79 I [ we ] were caught 26 miles out in my older boat , thank God for Racor filters on each fuel line from each tank, 4 of em, including the one on the engine, the wind S.E. came up & went like this, 30 kts sustained, gusting to 45, 20 minutes later, sustained at 70 knts, gusting to 90, 30 minutes later sustained 110 knts, gusting to 130 knts, peaked at sustained 120 knts gusting to 140. The boat was wood plank 2 inches thick, ribs every 10 inches, 32' long, 12' wide 18 years old with aluminum tanks which had shale on the bottom inside & had no indication until we took on that storm for 9 solid hours as the fuel pump sucked all that crud into the racors instead of the one single filter on the engine. Had I not had them, you guys wouldn't see my name here today. By the way, Pt Bonita is where the devil himself lives & if your engine or engine die antwhere within a mile of the point, theres no way an anchor will hold you, it would snap 3/4" nylon rope & the current runs at 6 kts with 12 footers every 20 ft & by the time the CG got there, you would be on the rocks under the cliff. I was also told by an omc rep that the fuel pump might not be able to pull enough fuel through the Racor, that was 2 engines ago & 11 years ago. Don't think for a minute that the engine can't pull fuel through that filter, it's very close to a filter not being there at 60 gal per hour. I understand your feelings on the warranty but I doubt the engione would have any trouble at all pulling the fuel. Trust me, you may only need that Racor 1 or 2 times in your life in a dangeous situation, & you will say the best money ever spent. Good luck without it. Sal
jimh	posted 05-29-2003 10:20 AM ET (US) Anectodal data point: We had twin Racor filters on our sailboat with a manifold to switch either of them into the diesel fuel line to our engine. When caught in a rather nasty storm on Lake Huron the fuel was sloshing around in the tank and stired up some debris from the bottom. When we heard the diesel engine skipping a beat, we switched to the other filter. I don't we ever needed that second filter again, but it was comforting to have it. By the way, downstream of the dual racors were two more filters. A low pressure filter just following the fuel pump and a high pressure filter following the injector pump. However, it was a pain in the neck to keep air out that system, especially the home made portion with the dual racors. I think air in the fuel might have been the original problem with the engine running rough in the storm, too. Sometimes less can be more.
BW23	posted 05-29-2003 10:36 AM ET (US) Aubv, This is a thread from a guy on the BoatUs message board. He also has a 23 Conquest with a Opti. Hope you find it informative. Have a safe season. Dave Chimoii Member posted 04-22-2003 09:03 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've been running a 1998 225 Optimax (one of the first) for 5 seasons. There was an initial problem of fuel starvation at idle. This was not an engine problem but a boat problem. The builder (and apparently more than one) put an in line spin on filter between tank and motor. This is often needed with previous motors. The Optimax has its own filter and the combined resistance of the two filters caused the starvation. Solution: remove the inline filter - no more problems. I had a fuel rail replaced in the first months. It was fixed very fast and efficiently by the dealer. My search of the boards at that time didn't show this to be a common problem. The throttle position indicators are not adjustable. After 3 years I began to get intermittent alarms. The TPIs were replaced under warranty. I think there is a solution to this on later models. There were some problems on 2000 and 2001 models that I didn't suffer from. Do a search on Optimax and you should find them on this board. I understand that these were fixed for 2002. The motor has been very reliable except for the above. Fuel economy is really excellent, especially compared to the EFI models. For oil it's a different story. Expect to use as much oil/mile as the older types. Apparently the oil usage drops off if you operate around 3200 rpm but who does that! I surely would like one of the 4 strokes, either Mercury or Yamaha. There is a real price difference that would take years to recapture in fuel savings (like diesel vs. gas on an inboard). The 4 stroke is quieter. How much 'free cash' you want to spend on that is your decision. Better resale value - forget it. It sounds as though you are repowering rather than buying a new boat. In summary, if you are going to repower and can get a good deal - do it. The difference is significant over the EFI. Mercury stands behind the motor. Don't forget your dealer. That's your most important link to good after sales service. Where are you boating?
Tom2697	posted 05-29-2003 12:58 PM ET (US) There is a HUGE difference between a fuel filter and a fuel/water separator. Some people just don't realize this. It seems like most of you do....For those that don't: If you install two fuel filters inline, you can get a starvation condition very easily. If you install a fuel/water separator inline with a filter, you should not. There is another type of product that some people are referring to...these are the combination units that are filters AND separators. On a boat with an in-deck tank, you should always have at least one filter and one water separator. The Racor product is one of these and that is why they are pricey.
John O	posted 05-29-2003 11:38 PM ET (US) I had a water/fuel seperator put on the new 2001 75hp Merc that I just bought. This is a new motor and I do not see the down side to having the Merc OEM seperator put on. Was this over needed? Ps. Put in today...finally !!!!!
John F	posted 05-30-2003 08:17 AM ET (US) Interesting thread. I boat in the Chesapeake Bay, which never gets as bad as some of the descritpions I've read. I'm a firm believer in water/fuel separators based on past experience. You can get 90 gph Racors (had one on my last boat (twin 175 hp mercs). I also get the metal bowl/inboard ones. Its easy to drain them off, and I'm willing to sacrifice being able to see in the bowl for the security that I'll never break the bowl and have gas leak out. Just my thoughts.