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Author Topic:   BEST RIDE, let's see who say's what?

slightly twisted posted 08-07-2003 09:33 PM ET (US)
Which whaler really has the best ride in heavy seas and I don't mean no lake chop either. were talkin north pacific
grinders. My bet goe's to the Revenge all though it does have bad visibility looking forward.What do you say?
lhg posted 08-07-2003 09:41 PM ET (US)
Of the trailerable Classics, I'd put my money on the 25 Ravenge Whaler Drive, with twin engines.
jimh posted 08-07-2003 09:49 PM ET (US)
In as much as this is your first article posted, I am surprised that you have split your area of concentration between two distinct elements in your question.
Are you more interested in learning about the relative ride characteristics among the many lengths and styles of Boston Whaler boats, or are your more interested in the people who offer these opinions?
In general, I am more interested in collecting and organizing articles of high information content, and I don't really care too much about the people who submit them. If a 15-year-old produces a well written article which contains useful information on our topic, I appreciate it as much as a similar one from a 70-year old.
Of course, "who says what" is always interesting in a chatty, clubby, gossipy sort of way (sometimes irresistible due to human nature) , and I have imputed many attributes to particular authors based on what they have written. In fact, from the style and tone of your first article, I have already imputed a few characteristics to you.
So, welcome mister slightly twisted, but please let us know if your true interest is the opinions you seek or in the people who might provide them.
There are many different camps on this forum and in general there is a civil exchange between them.
slightly twisted posted 08-07-2003 10:14 PM ET (US)
Sorry JIMH. Didin't mean to hit a sore spot. Just wanted to to see what other people thought. And by the the way peoples opinions do matter and one must understand they are subjective. And it's with this subjective opions that enable us to make decesions like which boat I might like to buy for an area that is more often rough than calm.
jimh posted 08-07-2003 10:27 PM ET (US)
No problem--I thought you might be a troller.
HAPPYJIM posted 08-07-2003 10:33 PM ET (US)
Bigger is almost always better.
I say Revenge!
It gives you more places to duck behind when the green water comes over the bow. You get to see plenty on the down side of the wave so reduced visibility is a moot point.
acseatsri posted 08-07-2003 10:35 PM ET (US)
Kind of a stupid exercise. Bigger is better, what more do you need to know? SHEESH!
tully_mars posted 08-07-2003 10:50 PM ET (US)
Having not ridden in any Whalers bigger than my 23' Conquest, I can only say that this boat is the best riding boat I have ridden unless you go to much bigger in another brand. I have been in some 6' seas with it and it tracks great, it was super solid. I really beat my expectations, no pun intended. I can only imagine what the bigger Conquests would be like.
Tully Mars
jimh posted 08-07-2003 11:13 PM ET (US)
From a naval architecture point of view, many characteristics of a hull vary with the waterline length, and the influence is not linear in most cases.
The displacement speed of a hull, for example, varies by the waterline length raised to the 0.5 power.
The stability of a hull, in comparison, varies by the waterline length raised to the third power.
Stability is probably the factor most associated with the unspecified "best ride" parameter.
When the sea state is such that there are significant wind driven waves (as the question implies) it is unlikely that any small boat will be operating in hydroplane mode. Thus, these displacement figures are quite applicable to the Boston Whaler boats being considered here.
The COST of a hull, by the way, probably varies with the 4th or 5th power of the waterline length.
slightly twisted posted 08-07-2003 11:27 PM ET (US)
Well JIMH I think you hit the nail on the head. I believe ' that in these types of sea states as mentioned in the question you are absolutly in a non hydroplane state. So unless some body can convince me differently bigger is not always better in these situations. So in the revenge model boats as compared to the Outrage style does the shedding of water compared to the added weight have a advantage or a disadvantage to the lighter Outrage and quicker lift?
Jay A posted 08-08-2003 12:04 AM ET (US)
In a nutshell: B/W boats are probably the worst riding boats in the industry! Having said that, their construction makes them one of the toughest boats anywhere. You may get battered and wet,but of all the different manufacturers out there, they are the best bet of getting you home.
As far as the Revenge and the Outrage are concerned,it's been a long time for me between being on one or the other. And diffent model years could make one better than the other. The best way to answer your question is to compare both same time, same conditions.
HAPPYJIM posted 08-08-2003 12:43 AM ET (US)
Sounds like a challenge to me.
Where would it be staged?
andygere posted 08-08-2003 01:49 AM ET (US)
I am a bit biased, but I say LHG missed it by just a hair. I'd go with the Outrage 25 Cuddy with Whalerdrive and twins, because the center console provides the helmsman with a piloting position farther aft, where the ride tends to be a bit smoother. Also, balance of the boat from a center console is a bit better, especially when going solo.
BMR posted 08-08-2003 06:28 AM ET (US)
I do not think any one model or hull can be classified as the best. May be the best ofr the intnded application or size, but not best overall. For example the hull I woudl want to go way off shore would be much different than that for fishing shallow areas. One best, I think I would need more than one boat for to answer this as well as to ride in every model!
jimh posted 08-08-2003 08:03 AM ET (US)
Below please find a hyperlink to an excellent discussion of hull stability:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/swos/dca/stg4-01.html
jstachowiak posted 08-08-2003 08:59 AM ET (US)
jimh,
I'm ready for the final exam. Do I get a degree for passing the exam in ship stability and bouyancy?
It is a good article/study. Yikes!
Barry posted 08-08-2003 09:19 AM ET (US)
What do you mean by "grinders"? I thought that grinders, as in "meat grinders", meant large breaking surf. The worst conditions that I have been out in were on Lake Erie. 4-6 footers that were very close together. Talk about bad lake chop.
What do you mean by best ride? Does best mean smoothest? If so then in really heavy seas I would be less concerned about the best ride and more concerned about safest ride.
Regarding the smoothest ride, that would obviously depend on conditions, speed, and the direction of travel.
Heading directly into a chop, I think the newer Accutrack hulls may be smoother at a faster speed due to their deeper V's. But that would depend on the size of the chop and the size of the boats.
On my classic 22' Outrage Whaler Drive, I'm probably not going to be going very fast, and still be comfortable, into or quartering into a large chop. I typically will be able to travel much faster and smoother going parallel to the waves or running with them.
Why does the Revenge have bad visibility looking forward? The 25' Revenge WT Whaler Drive rides very level so I would think visibility would be good. Plus, in rain or bad conditions, you have the option of looking through the glass windshield (maybe with a wiper) on the Revenge. On my classic Outrage my face is either in the rain or behind Eisenglas, neither of which provides good visibility.
SWarren posted 08-08-2003 10:16 AM ET (US)
The Defiance (sp)would be the best ride, it is also out of most people's price range. But that is like comparing a Bertram to a contender for ride quality. In real world classic whalers I would say the 27 offshore or 25 revenge. My 22 is stable and seaworthy but not that great of a ride. After fishing a 42 Bert, 35 Donzi and a 241 mako my boat by far is the worst ride. But we have caught the most yellowfin on my boat this year on a single trip, so it can get just as far out as the big boys.
tlynch posted 08-08-2003 11:59 AM ET (US)
Jimh,
I have always been told that price is a direct factor of weight for recreational boats. It works extremely well for larger (24+ foot) sailboats. Sometimes a unique construction technique, such as unibond, throws off the formula, but in general it is good.
Todd
lhg posted 08-08-2003 03:14 PM ET (US)
From my experience, the 25 Revenge WD, with it's 800lb weight difference forward, rides better than my bracketed Outrage 25 into a sharp headsea. But I prefer the stand up, center of the boat, center console handling of the Outrage in almost all boating conditions, especially when it's rough. I don't like the forward and off center helm position as well on the cabin Whalers. So I might revise my vote to the Outrage/Guardian 25 WD as the best of the trailerable Classics.
Capt_Tidy posted 08-08-2003 03:26 PM ET (US)
I loved/missed the 25 Outrage especially in haevy weather/seas... it had a wonderful combo feeling of heavy yet playful. But after selling the 25 and now playing with "light feeling" Glacier Bays, the 25 is still a wantabe on the list of "best" rides. I just don't think that the GBs will be around in 25 - 30 years... BW still king dog.
lae posted 08-08-2003 03:45 PM ET (US)
Ian,
All I know is that the 25 is the biggest little boat I have ever seen. We have been skiing,tubing,and wakeboarding behind it and it is as easy to play in as the Katama.
Larry
dgp posted 08-08-2003 07:51 PM ET (US)
Before the jury decides, let's have some feedback here from the 27' Offshore owners.
whalernut posted 08-08-2003 08:24 PM ET (US)
Ya man, Lake Erie throws out tons more than Lake Chop, it gets down right nasty and the waves are so close together, you get no relief and have to ride them on an angle, straight on is suicide. Anyway, the best riding whaler I have ever been on is the 27` Whaler Cabin model with twin Yamaha 225 4-strokes, those motors work like a Swiss Clock, smooth and quiet. I really like the big 27`, but out of my price range :( I`ll tell you how quiet those 225`s were, they were more quiet together than 1 115 Johnson 2-stroke, that my freinds is quiet. The only thing I didn`t like about the Yamahas these days are the cowling, looks like an alien head, but they ran so darn well, you really stop noticing that about them. Sorry JimH about my side talk, but I still can`t get over what a great combo that 27` Whaler was with those engines. Those engines do weigh well over 600 pounds a peice-Whew!!! Jack.
where2 posted 08-08-2003 11:14 PM ET (US)
No plugs for the CPD/GPD hulls? The longer heavier hulls always seem to ride better than the smaller lighter brothers. So, with that in mind, how about a plug for the 25' Frontier/Challenger series with a WD... It weighs more than its brother Outrage, and if you're going to be out in a crummy sea, why not be in a cabin with plenty of windows.
If you wanted spray in the face, you didn't want to ask for a good, dry riding boat...
glassman posted 08-09-2003 02:41 PM ET (US)
I'll have to go with the new up comeing 2004 25' Whaler Powercat. With the new Evinrude E-TEC engines. Twins of course. Possibly 150's or 200's
Barry posted 08-09-2003 07:00 PM ET (US)
I wonder how the ride of the new 2004 305 Conquest compares to the 320 Outrage.
PMUCCIOLO posted 08-09-2003 07:14 PM ET (US)
Having ridden on both the 25' Outrage (1991) and a 24' Outrage (1994), I must give the 24' hull the nod. The ride is much smoother and the high freeboard gives a feeling of security that's hard to beat. I have not been on the 240 Outrage, but perhaps someone else who has ridden on all three models can comment.

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Author	Topic: BEST RIDE, let's see who say's what?
slightly twisted	posted 08-07-2003 09:33 PM ET (US) Which whaler really has the best ride in heavy seas and I don't mean no lake chop either. were talkin north pacific grinders. My bet goe's to the Revenge all though it does have bad visibility looking forward.What do you say?
lhg	posted 08-07-2003 09:41 PM ET (US) Of the trailerable Classics, I'd put my money on the 25 Ravenge Whaler Drive, with twin engines.
jimh	posted 08-07-2003 09:49 PM ET (US) In as much as this is your first article posted, I am surprised that you have split your area of concentration between two distinct elements in your question. Are you more interested in learning about the relative ride characteristics among the many lengths and styles of Boston Whaler boats, or are your more interested in the people who offer these opinions? In general, I am more interested in collecting and organizing articles of high information content, and I don't really care too much about the people who submit them. If a 15-year-old produces a well written article which contains useful information on our topic, I appreciate it as much as a similar one from a 70-year old. Of course, "who says what" is always interesting in a chatty, clubby, gossipy sort of way (sometimes irresistible due to human nature) , and I have imputed many attributes to particular authors based on what they have written. In fact, from the style and tone of your first article, I have already imputed a few characteristics to you. So, welcome mister slightly twisted, but please let us know if your true interest is the opinions you seek or in the people who might provide them. There are many different camps on this forum and in general there is a civil exchange between them.
slightly twisted	posted 08-07-2003 10:14 PM ET (US) Sorry JIMH. Didin't mean to hit a sore spot. Just wanted to to see what other people thought. And by the the way peoples opinions do matter and one must understand they are subjective. And it's with this subjective opions that enable us to make decesions like which boat I might like to buy for an area that is more often rough than calm.
jimh	posted 08-07-2003 10:27 PM ET (US) No problem--I thought you might be a troller.
HAPPYJIM	posted 08-07-2003 10:33 PM ET (US) Bigger is almost always better. I say Revenge! It gives you more places to duck behind when the green water comes over the bow. You get to see plenty on the down side of the wave so reduced visibility is a moot point.
acseatsri	posted 08-07-2003 10:35 PM ET (US) Kind of a stupid exercise. Bigger is better, what more do you need to know? SHEESH!
tully_mars	posted 08-07-2003 10:50 PM ET (US) Having not ridden in any Whalers bigger than my 23' Conquest, I can only say that this boat is the best riding boat I have ridden unless you go to much bigger in another brand. I have been in some 6' seas with it and it tracks great, it was super solid. I really beat my expectations, no pun intended. I can only imagine what the bigger Conquests would be like. Tully Mars
jimh	posted 08-07-2003 11:13 PM ET (US) From a naval architecture point of view, many characteristics of a hull vary with the waterline length, and the influence is not linear in most cases. The displacement speed of a hull, for example, varies by the waterline length raised to the 0.5 power. The stability of a hull, in comparison, varies by the waterline length raised to the third power. Stability is probably the factor most associated with the unspecified "best ride" parameter. When the sea state is such that there are significant wind driven waves (as the question implies) it is unlikely that any small boat will be operating in hydroplane mode. Thus, these displacement figures are quite applicable to the Boston Whaler boats being considered here. The COST of a hull, by the way, probably varies with the 4th or 5th power of the waterline length.
slightly twisted	posted 08-07-2003 11:27 PM ET (US) Well JIMH I think you hit the nail on the head. I believe ' that in these types of sea states as mentioned in the question you are absolutly in a non hydroplane state. So unless some body can convince me differently bigger is not always better in these situations. So in the revenge model boats as compared to the Outrage style does the shedding of water compared to the added weight have a advantage or a disadvantage to the lighter Outrage and quicker lift?
Jay A	posted 08-08-2003 12:04 AM ET (US) In a nutshell: B/W boats are probably the worst riding boats in the industry! Having said that, their construction makes them one of the toughest boats anywhere. You may get battered and wet,but of all the different manufacturers out there, they are the best bet of getting you home. As far as the Revenge and the Outrage are concerned,it's been a long time for me between being on one or the other. And diffent model years could make one better than the other. The best way to answer your question is to compare both same time, same conditions.
HAPPYJIM	posted 08-08-2003 12:43 AM ET (US) Sounds like a challenge to me. Where would it be staged?
andygere	posted 08-08-2003 01:49 AM ET (US) I am a bit biased, but I say LHG missed it by just a hair. I'd go with the Outrage 25 Cuddy with Whalerdrive and twins, because the center console provides the helmsman with a piloting position farther aft, where the ride tends to be a bit smoother. Also, balance of the boat from a center console is a bit better, especially when going solo.
BMR	posted 08-08-2003 06:28 AM ET (US) I do not think any one model or hull can be classified as the best. May be the best ofr the intnded application or size, but not best overall. For example the hull I woudl want to go way off shore would be much different than that for fishing shallow areas. One best, I think I would need more than one boat for to answer this as well as to ride in every model!
jimh	posted 08-08-2003 08:03 AM ET (US) Below please find a hyperlink to an excellent discussion of hull stability: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/swos/dca/stg4-01.html
jstachowiak	posted 08-08-2003 08:59 AM ET (US) jimh, I'm ready for the final exam. Do I get a degree for passing the exam in ship stability and bouyancy? It is a good article/study. Yikes!
Barry	posted 08-08-2003 09:19 AM ET (US) What do you mean by "grinders"? I thought that grinders, as in "meat grinders", meant large breaking surf. The worst conditions that I have been out in were on Lake Erie. 4-6 footers that were very close together. Talk about bad lake chop. What do you mean by best ride? Does best mean smoothest? If so then in really heavy seas I would be less concerned about the best ride and more concerned about safest ride. Regarding the smoothest ride, that would obviously depend on conditions, speed, and the direction of travel. Heading directly into a chop, I think the newer Accutrack hulls may be smoother at a faster speed due to their deeper V's. But that would depend on the size of the chop and the size of the boats. On my classic 22' Outrage Whaler Drive, I'm probably not going to be going very fast, and still be comfortable, into or quartering into a large chop. I typically will be able to travel much faster and smoother going parallel to the waves or running with them. Why does the Revenge have bad visibility looking forward? The 25' Revenge WT Whaler Drive rides very level so I would think visibility would be good. Plus, in rain or bad conditions, you have the option of looking through the glass windshield (maybe with a wiper) on the Revenge. On my classic Outrage my face is either in the rain or behind Eisenglas, neither of which provides good visibility.
SWarren	posted 08-08-2003 10:16 AM ET (US) The Defiance (sp)would be the best ride, it is also out of most people's price range. But that is like comparing a Bertram to a contender for ride quality. In real world classic whalers I would say the 27 offshore or 25 revenge. My 22 is stable and seaworthy but not that great of a ride. After fishing a 42 Bert, 35 Donzi and a 241 mako my boat by far is the worst ride. But we have caught the most yellowfin on my boat this year on a single trip, so it can get just as far out as the big boys.
tlynch	posted 08-08-2003 11:59 AM ET (US) Jimh, I have always been told that price is a direct factor of weight for recreational boats. It works extremely well for larger (24+ foot) sailboats. Sometimes a unique construction technique, such as unibond, throws off the formula, but in general it is good. Todd
lhg	posted 08-08-2003 03:14 PM ET (US) From my experience, the 25 Revenge WD, with it's 800lb weight difference forward, rides better than my bracketed Outrage 25 into a sharp headsea. But I prefer the stand up, center of the boat, center console handling of the Outrage in almost all boating conditions, especially when it's rough. I don't like the forward and off center helm position as well on the cabin Whalers. So I might revise my vote to the Outrage/Guardian 25 WD as the best of the trailerable Classics.
Capt_Tidy	posted 08-08-2003 03:26 PM ET (US) I loved/missed the 25 Outrage especially in haevy weather/seas... it had a wonderful combo feeling of heavy yet playful. But after selling the 25 and now playing with "light feeling" Glacier Bays, the 25 is still a wantabe on the list of "best" rides. I just don't think that the GBs will be around in 25 - 30 years... BW still king dog.
lae	posted 08-08-2003 03:45 PM ET (US) Ian, All I know is that the 25 is the biggest little boat I have ever seen. We have been skiing,tubing,and wakeboarding behind it and it is as easy to play in as the Katama. Larry
dgp	posted 08-08-2003 07:51 PM ET (US) Before the jury decides, let's have some feedback here from the 27' Offshore owners.
whalernut	posted 08-08-2003 08:24 PM ET (US) Ya man, Lake Erie throws out tons more than Lake Chop, it gets down right nasty and the waves are so close together, you get no relief and have to ride them on an angle, straight on is suicide. Anyway, the best riding whaler I have ever been on is the 27` Whaler Cabin model with twin Yamaha 225 4-strokes, those motors work like a Swiss Clock, smooth and quiet. I really like the big 27`, but out of my price range :( I`ll tell you how quiet those 225`s were, they were more quiet together than 1 115 Johnson 2-stroke, that my freinds is quiet. The only thing I didn`t like about the Yamahas these days are the cowling, looks like an alien head, but they ran so darn well, you really stop noticing that about them. Sorry JimH about my side talk, but I still can`t get over what a great combo that 27` Whaler was with those engines. Those engines do weigh well over 600 pounds a peice-Whew!!! Jack.
where2	posted 08-08-2003 11:14 PM ET (US) No plugs for the CPD/GPD hulls? The longer heavier hulls always seem to ride better than the smaller lighter brothers. So, with that in mind, how about a plug for the 25' Frontier/Challenger series with a WD... It weighs more than its brother Outrage, and if you're going to be out in a crummy sea, why not be in a cabin with plenty of windows. If you wanted spray in the face, you didn't want to ask for a good, dry riding boat...
glassman	posted 08-09-2003 02:41 PM ET (US) I'll have to go with the new up comeing 2004 25' Whaler Powercat. With the new Evinrude E-TEC engines. Twins of course. Possibly 150's or 200's
Barry	posted 08-09-2003 07:00 PM ET (US) I wonder how the ride of the new 2004 305 Conquest compares to the 320 Outrage.
PMUCCIOLO	posted 08-09-2003 07:14 PM ET (US) Having ridden on both the 25' Outrage (1991) and a 24' Outrage (1994), I must give the 24' hull the nod. The ride is much smoother and the high freeboard gives a feeling of security that's hard to beat. I have not been on the 240 Outrage, but perhaps someone else who has ridden on all three models can comment.