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Author Topic:   Classic in '04 Suzuki brochure

frontier posted 08-23-2003 02:34 PM ET (US)
Classic Whaler picture with Suzuki 4-Stroke in the new 2004 Suzuki brochure. Congrats Bigshot - your favorite combo made it!
whalernut posted 08-24-2003 10:36 PM ET (US)
Cool!! Which Classic made it? Thanks-Jack.
frontier posted 08-24-2003 10:59 PM ET (US)
Looks like an old 16' 7" (small decal) with a custom console.
Bigshot posted 08-25-2003 02:41 PM ET (US)
If that is by the Golden gate bridge, it was in their last brochure as an "owner appreciation photo".
lhg posted 09-03-2003 07:28 PM ET (US)
Suzuki is really pushing Brunswick these days. First they copy their engine color, then they show one of their black motors on Brunswick's premier boat line.
Tom2697 posted 09-04-2003 11:20 AM ET (US)
Great merketing campaign!
One of the longest lasting boats using the motor with the longest warranty...
If I was making boat motors, I too would push the premier boat line from one of the largest companies in the industry.
JohnJ80 posted 09-04-2003 11:42 AM ET (US)
competition is a beautiful thing. if you want merc to be all that it can be (and there definitely is room for improvement like lower weight and better warranties), then kudos to Suzuki for taking it to them!
I think its great that someone is advancing the notion that you can have another motor besides a Merc on a whaler.
classic guerilla marketing - making them defend their home turf so you can take them on elsewhere. there are only so many resources to go around.
I love it!
j
lhg posted 09-04-2003 03:53 PM ET (US)
But in some circles, this would label Suzuki as a "wannabe".
They wish they owned Boston Whaler and wished their engines were as popular as the black ones. Imitation is the greatest form of flattery, it is said.
JohnJ80 posted 09-04-2003 04:14 PM ET (US)
Oh, come on LHG. What do you do, work for merc or something?
Imagine how much fun it would be if there was only one outboard company around? Quality would stink, prices would be stratospheric and innovation would be nonexistent. Competition is what makes good companies great and what gets rid of the poor ones.
Or maybe you want to pay more for a motor that has less quality, warranty and innovation? ;-)
I don't care whether you love them or hate them, competition is a very, very good thing. Ask the CEO of any great company.
Seems to me to be a little on the cheapshot side of things to start trying to marginalize Suzuki with name calling ('wannabe'?!). Geez, they are a good company, possibly even great one. They are definitely a comer and are doing a lot of things right lately.
How about addressing the issue on its merit and commenting on the issue here about how and why Suzuki is doing what they are doing? Does it lead to success? Does it increase their profits or market share?
j
Tom2697 posted 09-04-2003 04:47 PM ET (US)
People said the same thing about Toyota in the '80s. Now, all manufacturing companies emulate their techniques. I even read today that Toyota is outselling all of the Big Three automakers in U.S. car sales this year. Mercury might want to watch out! The "We are the biggest and the best" attitude is causing the U.S. automakers to lose market share quickly since their production techniques are antiquated and their level of quality is below the Japanese level.
JohnJ80 posted 09-04-2003 05:16 PM ET (US)
yeah, no kidding. the toyota story is a classic case of clever marketing of a good product against an overly arrogant and complacent market leader. Not unlike what we have seen from Merc lately - merc needs to spool up and drive the innovation in the industry they can't react to it if they intend to maintain market share and increase profit over the long haul.
The battlefield for marketing is a space about 6" on a side - the area between your prospective customer's ears. That is what is so very interesting about this particular tactic.
Certainly Suzuki would like to own whaler - who wouldn't?! This is probably one of the very strongest brand names in marine industry. It is probably in the top 50 brands of anything in marketing annals. Why do you think Merc swallowed them up?
If Suzuki can put forward the notion that you CAN use another motor on a whaler, they win if they introduce doubt. Merc can't win unless they squash the thought. It also will most likely require some sort of response from Merc that will just take away from what they really need to be doing. It is definitely a case of marketing terrorism. If they could get this to catch on, imagine the pain in the hinder this could cause for the dealers and whaler sales reps.
So, it will be interesting to see what happens.
j

lhg posted 09-05-2003 01:39 PM ET (US)
So what have we here.
Try Toyota - Naw, they never copied every German made auto that has ever come to market, Lexus included. Now the new Cadillac "Art & Science" look is being copied. I forgot. The SUV and Mini Van are Japanese ideas.
Try Suzuki - Naw, they never copied the Mercury 60-degree V-6 engine. Maybe if they hadn't painted it gold it would have sold 5% of what Mercury sold in V-6's. Glad they finally figured out that black colored engines sell. What I can't figure out why they didn't copy Yamaha's or Honda's colors. Guess you don't copy your own, only the Germans and Americans.
Mercury needs to spool up innovation? Wait 'til you see the the new Mercury 2.6 liter 250HP blow the doors off the new 3.6 liter Suzuki 250! Note displacement difference, or is bigger, fatter and heavier still better with gas at $2.00/gallon?
Import engine dumping? What's that? Just ask the steel industry.
Tom2697 posted 09-05-2003 05:03 PM ET (US)
For Merc's sake, I hope their new engine does destroy the Suzuki. They are losing market share to the other manufacturers and they need something to gain it back. Who knows, maybe I will even buy a Mercury if they have a 150 hp 4-stroke in 6 years when my Suzuki's warranty expires...
As for copying someone else's design, patents protect against that. If an idea is that revolutionary, the U.S. Government, in colaboration with most industrialized nations, will grant the patent holder a 17 year protection against copying. After this time period, they can apply for another patent if no one else decides to pursue the technology. Usually, with a good idea, others will have caught on. Look what happened with Boston Whaler once the hull patent expired on the original designs...How many companies started producing boats that are similar in design? I think most will agree that these boats do not compete with Whalers but a considerable segment of the market has bought these "knockoff" boats. And Whaler had lost market share due to it...They continued to lose market share until they came out with a new design that "saved Boston Whaler"...
jimh posted 09-05-2003 06:04 PM ET (US)
I don't think that Whaler had a patent on the shape of their boat's hull. They had a patent on the Unibond construction technique. Recall that only recently were laws introduced that prevented the direct copying of a hull shape ("splashing").
Mercury has been innovative with its SMART GUAGE and fly-by-wire controls. Look for more integration of engines and electronics in the future.
One's opinion of Japanese products is affected by when and where one grew up. In the 1950's anything labeled "Made in Japan" was considered inferior--a junk product, an imitation.
If you came of age in the late 1970's and early 1980's, you may have been influenced by Japanese cars and home electronics, and your opinion of "Made in Japan" articles is probably higher.
While on the highway recently I was passed by a bass boat with a full cover. Only the lower unit was sticking out. It was black. I thought to myself, "Is that a Merc, or a Suzuki, or an OMC?"
lhg posted 09-05-2003 06:19 PM ET (US)
Incorrect statements like "Mercury is losing market share to others" will not go unchallenged here. They are not, and they are still number one in sales & holding. Boston Whaler also appears to be gaining market share. Just look at all of the Mercurys going out on the brand new 170's! From everything I have read, both Yamaha and Mercury gained considerable market share over the last few years as the OMC situation deteriorated, and Bombardier has yet to recapture what was lost. Mercury and Yamaha, by a huge margin, dominate the world marine engine industry over the other players. Maybe working together pays off. By making a deal with Mercury to sell the 4000 black 225 4-strokes, Yamaha was able to clobber Honda in that sales category alone, helping to recover their R & D costs faster. Mercury's new 135-250Hp 4-strokes should be big sellers too. It will be interesting to see how the new 75-115 Optimax's do compared to the same range 4-strokes.
Tom2697 posted 09-05-2003 06:55 PM ET (US)
Until Honda came out with the 130 hp 4-stroke, they did not have a motor in this size range. Suzuki then introduced their 140 4-stroke. Their are quite a few boats out on the water with these motors on the back...where did these buyers come from? In order for one company to gain market share, another company has to lose it. Even if the market grows, if someone buys a new design, the old designs lose market share.
I have read in many places that dealers and buyers are upset with Whaler because of the "Mercury only" deal. Are you saying that someone who buys a Grady with a Yamaha instead of a Whaler because of the Mercury hanging on the back is not taking away market share from Brunswick? Come on! This is denial!
I love Whalers! My family has owned one since 1981! I've owned 2. My brother sold his Grady to buy a Whaler. My father has owned 3 and is looking for another to replace one of his that was stolen. I will only buy Whalers in the future. But, I wasn't impressed with the Mercury at the price they were asking. I was impressed with the Suzuki. Unknowingly, I bought my Suzuki from the same dealer that had originally sold my Whaler. Albeit, this dealer had not carried the Whaler brand since 1991! Did it matter that the motor was "Mercury black" as you call it? No! Did it matter that the motor could be from 126 hp up to 154 hp? No! What did matter was that I found a 4-stroke motor that was quiet, fuel efficient, performed well on my boat, and that had a great warranty at a price that would not send me to the poor house. This is where Mercury needs to realize that not everyone is brand specific when looking for a motor. Some are and it works to both their advantage and to their disadvantage at the same time. Brunswick's Mercury only deal is designed to lock people into buying the Mercury motor if they want a new Boston Whaler. This is a pure attempt to increase market share for the Mercury engines through product leverage. Why would they do this? Either they just want more market share for the Mercury line by using a complimentary product. Or, they want to prevent losing market share by coupling a phenominal product that people want with another product that is struggling. One could say that Brunswick is using the Mercury name to sell the Boston Whaler line but I seriously doubt that!
On the opinion of Japanese products, I own a GM product and a Ford Motor Co. product. I also work in the automotive industry and read a lot of reports on product quality. Almost all of the surveys rate the Japanese cars as having fewer warranty returns thant the American made products. Does this define quality? In my eyes, it does. Will it cause me to only buy a Japanese product? No, it will not.
lhg posted 09-05-2003 09:12 PM ET (US)
Tom - I'm sure nobody here minds or cares that you like a Suzuki engine on your Whaler. That is your choice and it's fine by me. What is bothersome is the comments by you and John that Mercurys, and other overtones to other American made products, are inferior and lack innovation when compared to products from Japan. Nothing could be further from the truth. Mercury has basically led innovation in the outboard and marine engine market for the last 35 years, and still does. And it has gained them the number one sales position besides.
The re-hashing about Whalers coming with Mercurys is getting old and no longer worthy of serious discussion. I thought we put it to rest a while ago. Until they sell the company, it isn't going to change.
Perry posted 09-05-2003 10:37 PM ET (US)
Larry, where do you get sales #'s for outboard motors? I thought they were kept from the public. It would be interesting to compare the numbers.
Tom2697 posted 09-08-2003 11:52 AM ET (US)
I never said I would not buy a Mercury...I am not a brand loyalist. If I find a better product, I will buy that product if the price is right. Actually, I am very close to buying a Mercury 4-stroke as a kicker motor.
I also never said that Japanese products are better than their American counterparts. I stated that industry reports state fewer waranty returns are associated with Japanese cars than with American cars. I look at more quantitative and qualitative information when I make large purchases. If one vehicle brand has 3 returns per 1000 vehicles and another has 4 returns per thousand vehicles, is the 3/1000 vehicle better? We are talking about a 0.1% difference! However, the vastly undereducated public hears these reports and immediately believes that one IS better than the other. (This is (I believe) why the report that I read on Friday stated the Toyota has surpassed the Chrysler Group in car sales for the year and is stealing market share from both Ford and General Motors.) What I found interesting about these reports is the athor's subjectivity included in them. More specifically, the Audi A6 received a much worse incidence report than did the Volkswagen Passat. BUT, these two vehicles are IDENTICAL. They are made in the same plant, by the same people, and using the same parts. Kind of sounds like the Yamaha and Mercury lower hp engines, doesn't it? Some prefer one brand over the other when they are the same.
One last thing, this posted started out dealing with Suzuki motors on Boston Whalers. It had nothing to do with Mercurys...
tarbaby posted 09-08-2003 01:24 PM ET (US)
Mercury "number one and holding"...... I think not. I think if you include Mercruiser outdrives then yes, they do have the market share. Just look around and you will see more Yamahas than anything else on new boats and they are gaining loyalty for the repower crowd. You can't argue with taste. No I don't have a Yamaha. Yes, I have a Mercury and a Johnson. And a British Seagull (junk!).

tarbaby posted 09-08-2003 01:29 PM ET (US)
Oh yeah, Crocker Marine in Wilmington NC. and Morehead Marine in Morehead City NC. just dropped Whaler and picked up Parker. So they now sell Grady and Parker...... both with Yamahas.
Sorry to be off topic.
lhg posted 09-08-2003 02:26 PM ET (US)
Tarbay - I think so, and don't for get the bass boat and go fast outboard markets besides. They buy a lot of motors. Maybe in your area there a lot of Yamahas but in most other areas of the US and Canada, all you see are Mercs, including the V-6 outboard capital of the world, Southeast FL. And being Number #1 is sales does not include Mercruiser inboards and I/O's. But when you add those in, it's major domination of the small/mid sized boat power picture.
The recent Door County WI Rendezvous featured 10 Whalers, including four with twin V-6 Mercs, a total 9 boats with Mercury power and one with a single Yamaha.
From the selling days of the Classic Whalers, 1958-1995, Mercury did not do so well with Whalers, as almost all dealers were either OMC and Yamaha, or both. So Mercury is not too well represented on these pages in the Clasic sections. Guess that's why they bought the Company! Engine marketshare on Whalers was certainly part of the motivation for the purchase.
Now, if Suzuki buys out BW from Brunswick (I can see it already, Boston Whaler Wet Bikes), I'm going to be really upset and will have to find some other brand of boat to buy so I can get the Mercury engine of my choice, if there are any of those non-affiliated boat companies still left.
Aside from all of this , I can say that every Suzuki outboard I have seen on the water seems to be a fine running product. The 70 seems to have found a particularly attractive weight/HP/price niche, especially when combined with EFI. The other manufacturers 75's, none of which include EFI, seem to be a large jump in size and weight.
JohnJ80 posted 09-09-2003 11:59 PM ET (US)
Hey there LHG, time to call you out.
I never said that Merc was an inferior product or not innovating. I did say that not having competition is bad for any company and that whatever motor you like, you ought to be glad that there is competition. Having one motor company would be bad - that is when innovation dies. That is a proven fact in industry after industry. Only a moron would want to have a single completely dominant player in any market.
They do need to spool up the innovation if they want to stop the nipping at their heels. That, however, doesn't say that they are not innovating, just not innovating enough to put the competition away. They are not pulling away (or there wouldn't be this fierce competition - it would be a slam dunk, and its not). Microsoft did the slam dunk, not Mercury.
I also said that what Suzuki was doing was an interesting marketing tactic, and it is. Why is that a negative on Merc? It IS an interesting tactic and it WILL be interesting to see what happens. It is clever, can't you at least give them that?
Geez, come on, where do you get this stuff?
j.
Ed Z posted 09-10-2003 01:26 AM ET (US)

After reading all these differing points of veiw about motors and inovation, kinda makes me wish Dick Fisher had stayed with the business and producing Bearcat engines... Mine is 34 years old and still running great... I compare this engine to the 4 strokes on the market today and have yet to see a superior design... Every one of them is at least 100 lbs heavier, none will idle at 600 RPM, or get 40 minutes on a quart of fuel (trolling)... Tell me, why is it there is nothing out there in the 85 hp range that compairs in weight, fuel economy, or durability to what Dick made 34 years ago.???
nevada posted 09-10-2003 10:31 AM ET (US)
Ed here is a sight that may interest you,
<http://www.adventurebearcatmarine.com/>
Joe

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Author	Topic: Classic in '04 Suzuki brochure
frontier	posted 08-23-2003 02:34 PM ET (US) Classic Whaler picture with Suzuki 4-Stroke in the new 2004 Suzuki brochure. Congrats Bigshot - your favorite combo made it!
whalernut	posted 08-24-2003 10:36 PM ET (US) Cool!! Which Classic made it? Thanks-Jack.
frontier	posted 08-24-2003 10:59 PM ET (US) Looks like an old 16' 7" (small decal) with a custom console.
Bigshot	posted 08-25-2003 02:41 PM ET (US) If that is by the Golden gate bridge, it was in their last brochure as an "owner appreciation photo".
lhg	posted 09-03-2003 07:28 PM ET (US) Suzuki is really pushing Brunswick these days. First they copy their engine color, then they show one of their black motors on Brunswick's premier boat line.
Tom2697	posted 09-04-2003 11:20 AM ET (US) Great merketing campaign! One of the longest lasting boats using the motor with the longest warranty... If I was making boat motors, I too would push the premier boat line from one of the largest companies in the industry.
JohnJ80	posted 09-04-2003 11:42 AM ET (US) competition is a beautiful thing. if you want merc to be all that it can be (and there definitely is room for improvement like lower weight and better warranties), then kudos to Suzuki for taking it to them! I think its great that someone is advancing the notion that you can have another motor besides a Merc on a whaler. classic guerilla marketing - making them defend their home turf so you can take them on elsewhere. there are only so many resources to go around. I love it! j
lhg	posted 09-04-2003 03:53 PM ET (US) But in some circles, this would label Suzuki as a "wannabe". They wish they owned Boston Whaler and wished their engines were as popular as the black ones. Imitation is the greatest form of flattery, it is said.
JohnJ80	posted 09-04-2003 04:14 PM ET (US) Oh, come on LHG. What do you do, work for merc or something? Imagine how much fun it would be if there was only one outboard company around? Quality would stink, prices would be stratospheric and innovation would be nonexistent. Competition is what makes good companies great and what gets rid of the poor ones. Or maybe you want to pay more for a motor that has less quality, warranty and innovation? ;-) I don't care whether you love them or hate them, competition is a very, very good thing. Ask the CEO of any great company. Seems to me to be a little on the cheapshot side of things to start trying to marginalize Suzuki with name calling ('wannabe'?!). Geez, they are a good company, possibly even great one. They are definitely a comer and are doing a lot of things right lately. How about addressing the issue on its merit and commenting on the issue here about how and why Suzuki is doing what they are doing? Does it lead to success? Does it increase their profits or market share? j
Tom2697	posted 09-04-2003 04:47 PM ET (US) People said the same thing about Toyota in the '80s. Now, all manufacturing companies emulate their techniques. I even read today that Toyota is outselling all of the Big Three automakers in U.S. car sales this year. Mercury might want to watch out! The "We are the biggest and the best" attitude is causing the U.S. automakers to lose market share quickly since their production techniques are antiquated and their level of quality is below the Japanese level.
JohnJ80	posted 09-04-2003 05:16 PM ET (US) yeah, no kidding. the toyota story is a classic case of clever marketing of a good product against an overly arrogant and complacent market leader. Not unlike what we have seen from Merc lately - merc needs to spool up and drive the innovation in the industry they can't react to it if they intend to maintain market share and increase profit over the long haul. The battlefield for marketing is a space about 6" on a side - the area between your prospective customer's ears. That is what is so very interesting about this particular tactic. Certainly Suzuki would like to own whaler - who wouldn't?! This is probably one of the very strongest brand names in marine industry. It is probably in the top 50 brands of anything in marketing annals. Why do you think Merc swallowed them up? If Suzuki can put forward the notion that you CAN use another motor on a whaler, they win if they introduce doubt. Merc can't win unless they squash the thought. It also will most likely require some sort of response from Merc that will just take away from what they really need to be doing. It is definitely a case of marketing terrorism. If they could get this to catch on, imagine the pain in the hinder this could cause for the dealers and whaler sales reps. So, it will be interesting to see what happens. j
lhg	posted 09-05-2003 01:39 PM ET (US) So what have we here. Try Toyota - Naw, they never copied every German made auto that has ever come to market, Lexus included. Now the new Cadillac "Art & Science" look is being copied. I forgot. The SUV and Mini Van are Japanese ideas. Try Suzuki - Naw, they never copied the Mercury 60-degree V-6 engine. Maybe if they hadn't painted it gold it would have sold 5% of what Mercury sold in V-6's. Glad they finally figured out that black colored engines sell. What I can't figure out why they didn't copy Yamaha's or Honda's colors. Guess you don't copy your own, only the Germans and Americans. Mercury needs to spool up innovation? Wait 'til you see the the new Mercury 2.6 liter 250HP blow the doors off the new 3.6 liter Suzuki 250! Note displacement difference, or is bigger, fatter and heavier still better with gas at $2.00/gallon? Import engine dumping? What's that? Just ask the steel industry.
Tom2697	posted 09-05-2003 05:03 PM ET (US) For Merc's sake, I hope their new engine does destroy the Suzuki. They are losing market share to the other manufacturers and they need something to gain it back. Who knows, maybe I will even buy a Mercury if they have a 150 hp 4-stroke in 6 years when my Suzuki's warranty expires... As for copying someone else's design, patents protect against that. If an idea is that revolutionary, the U.S. Government, in colaboration with most industrialized nations, will grant the patent holder a 17 year protection against copying. After this time period, they can apply for another patent if no one else decides to pursue the technology. Usually, with a good idea, others will have caught on. Look what happened with Boston Whaler once the hull patent expired on the original designs...How many companies started producing boats that are similar in design? I think most will agree that these boats do not compete with Whalers but a considerable segment of the market has bought these "knockoff" boats. And Whaler had lost market share due to it...They continued to lose market share until they came out with a new design that "saved Boston Whaler"...
jimh	posted 09-05-2003 06:04 PM ET (US) I don't think that Whaler had a patent on the shape of their boat's hull. They had a patent on the Unibond construction technique. Recall that only recently were laws introduced that prevented the direct copying of a hull shape ("splashing"). Mercury has been innovative with its SMART GUAGE and fly-by-wire controls. Look for more integration of engines and electronics in the future. One's opinion of Japanese products is affected by when and where one grew up. In the 1950's anything labeled "Made in Japan" was considered inferior--a junk product, an imitation. If you came of age in the late 1970's and early 1980's, you may have been influenced by Japanese cars and home electronics, and your opinion of "Made in Japan" articles is probably higher. While on the highway recently I was passed by a bass boat with a full cover. Only the lower unit was sticking out. It was black. I thought to myself, "Is that a Merc, or a Suzuki, or an OMC?"
lhg	posted 09-05-2003 06:19 PM ET (US) Incorrect statements like "Mercury is losing market share to others" will not go unchallenged here. They are not, and they are still number one in sales & holding. Boston Whaler also appears to be gaining market share. Just look at all of the Mercurys going out on the brand new 170's! From everything I have read, both Yamaha and Mercury gained considerable market share over the last few years as the OMC situation deteriorated, and Bombardier has yet to recapture what was lost. Mercury and Yamaha, by a huge margin, dominate the world marine engine industry over the other players. Maybe working together pays off. By making a deal with Mercury to sell the 4000 black 225 4-strokes, Yamaha was able to clobber Honda in that sales category alone, helping to recover their R & D costs faster. Mercury's new 135-250Hp 4-strokes should be big sellers too. It will be interesting to see how the new 75-115 Optimax's do compared to the same range 4-strokes.
Tom2697	posted 09-05-2003 06:55 PM ET (US) Until Honda came out with the 130 hp 4-stroke, they did not have a motor in this size range. Suzuki then introduced their 140 4-stroke. Their are quite a few boats out on the water with these motors on the back...where did these buyers come from? In order for one company to gain market share, another company has to lose it. Even if the market grows, if someone buys a new design, the old designs lose market share. I have read in many places that dealers and buyers are upset with Whaler because of the "Mercury only" deal. Are you saying that someone who buys a Grady with a Yamaha instead of a Whaler because of the Mercury hanging on the back is not taking away market share from Brunswick? Come on! This is denial! I love Whalers! My family has owned one since 1981! I've owned 2. My brother sold his Grady to buy a Whaler. My father has owned 3 and is looking for another to replace one of his that was stolen. I will only buy Whalers in the future. But, I wasn't impressed with the Mercury at the price they were asking. I was impressed with the Suzuki. Unknowingly, I bought my Suzuki from the same dealer that had originally sold my Whaler. Albeit, this dealer had not carried the Whaler brand since 1991! Did it matter that the motor was "Mercury black" as you call it? No! Did it matter that the motor could be from 126 hp up to 154 hp? No! What did matter was that I found a 4-stroke motor that was quiet, fuel efficient, performed well on my boat, and that had a great warranty at a price that would not send me to the poor house. This is where Mercury needs to realize that not everyone is brand specific when looking for a motor. Some are and it works to both their advantage and to their disadvantage at the same time. Brunswick's Mercury only deal is designed to lock people into buying the Mercury motor if they want a new Boston Whaler. This is a pure attempt to increase market share for the Mercury engines through product leverage. Why would they do this? Either they just want more market share for the Mercury line by using a complimentary product. Or, they want to prevent losing market share by coupling a phenominal product that people want with another product that is struggling. One could say that Brunswick is using the Mercury name to sell the Boston Whaler line but I seriously doubt that! On the opinion of Japanese products, I own a GM product and a Ford Motor Co. product. I also work in the automotive industry and read a lot of reports on product quality. Almost all of the surveys rate the Japanese cars as having fewer warranty returns thant the American made products. Does this define quality? In my eyes, it does. Will it cause me to only buy a Japanese product? No, it will not.
lhg	posted 09-05-2003 09:12 PM ET (US) Tom - I'm sure nobody here minds or cares that you like a Suzuki engine on your Whaler. That is your choice and it's fine by me. What is bothersome is the comments by you and John that Mercurys, and other overtones to other American made products, are inferior and lack innovation when compared to products from Japan. Nothing could be further from the truth. Mercury has basically led innovation in the outboard and marine engine market for the last 35 years, and still does. And it has gained them the number one sales position besides. The re-hashing about Whalers coming with Mercurys is getting old and no longer worthy of serious discussion. I thought we put it to rest a while ago. Until they sell the company, it isn't going to change.
Perry	posted 09-05-2003 10:37 PM ET (US) Larry, where do you get sales #'s for outboard motors? I thought they were kept from the public. It would be interesting to compare the numbers.
Tom2697	posted 09-08-2003 11:52 AM ET (US) I never said I would not buy a Mercury...I am not a brand loyalist. If I find a better product, I will buy that product if the price is right. Actually, I am very close to buying a Mercury 4-stroke as a kicker motor. I also never said that Japanese products are better than their American counterparts. I stated that industry reports state fewer waranty returns are associated with Japanese cars than with American cars. I look at more quantitative and qualitative information when I make large purchases. If one vehicle brand has 3 returns per 1000 vehicles and another has 4 returns per thousand vehicles, is the 3/1000 vehicle better? We are talking about a 0.1% difference! However, the vastly undereducated public hears these reports and immediately believes that one IS better than the other. (This is (I believe) why the report that I read on Friday stated the Toyota has surpassed the Chrysler Group in car sales for the year and is stealing market share from both Ford and General Motors.) What I found interesting about these reports is the athor's subjectivity included in them. More specifically, the Audi A6 received a much worse incidence report than did the Volkswagen Passat. BUT, these two vehicles are IDENTICAL. They are made in the same plant, by the same people, and using the same parts. Kind of sounds like the Yamaha and Mercury lower hp engines, doesn't it? Some prefer one brand over the other when they are the same. One last thing, this posted started out dealing with Suzuki motors on Boston Whalers. It had nothing to do with Mercurys...
tarbaby	posted 09-08-2003 01:24 PM ET (US) Mercury "number one and holding"...... I think not. I think if you include Mercruiser outdrives then yes, they do have the market share. Just look around and you will see more Yamahas than anything else on new boats and they are gaining loyalty for the repower crowd. You can't argue with taste. No I don't have a Yamaha. Yes, I have a Mercury and a Johnson. And a British Seagull (junk!).
tarbaby	posted 09-08-2003 01:29 PM ET (US) Oh yeah, Crocker Marine in Wilmington NC. and Morehead Marine in Morehead City NC. just dropped Whaler and picked up Parker. So they now sell Grady and Parker...... both with Yamahas. Sorry to be off topic.
lhg	posted 09-08-2003 02:26 PM ET (US) Tarbay - I think so, and don't for get the bass boat and go fast outboard markets besides. They buy a lot of motors. Maybe in your area there a lot of Yamahas but in most other areas of the US and Canada, all you see are Mercs, including the V-6 outboard capital of the world, Southeast FL. And being Number #1 is sales does not include Mercruiser inboards and I/O's. But when you add those in, it's major domination of the small/mid sized boat power picture. The recent Door County WI Rendezvous featured 10 Whalers, including four with twin V-6 Mercs, a total 9 boats with Mercury power and one with a single Yamaha. From the selling days of the Classic Whalers, 1958-1995, Mercury did not do so well with Whalers, as almost all dealers were either OMC and Yamaha, or both. So Mercury is not too well represented on these pages in the Clasic sections. Guess that's why they bought the Company! Engine marketshare on Whalers was certainly part of the motivation for the purchase. Now, if Suzuki buys out BW from Brunswick (I can see it already, Boston Whaler Wet Bikes), I'm going to be really upset and will have to find some other brand of boat to buy so I can get the Mercury engine of my choice, if there are any of those non-affiliated boat companies still left. Aside from all of this , I can say that every Suzuki outboard I have seen on the water seems to be a fine running product. The 70 seems to have found a particularly attractive weight/HP/price niche, especially when combined with EFI. The other manufacturers 75's, none of which include EFI, seem to be a large jump in size and weight.
JohnJ80	posted 09-09-2003 11:59 PM ET (US) Hey there LHG, time to call you out. I never said that Merc was an inferior product or not innovating. I did say that not having competition is bad for any company and that whatever motor you like, you ought to be glad that there is competition. Having one motor company would be bad - that is when innovation dies. That is a proven fact in industry after industry. Only a moron would want to have a single completely dominant player in any market. They do need to spool up the innovation if they want to stop the nipping at their heels. That, however, doesn't say that they are not innovating, just not innovating enough to put the competition away. They are not pulling away (or there wouldn't be this fierce competition - it would be a slam dunk, and its not). Microsoft did the slam dunk, not Mercury. I also said that what Suzuki was doing was an interesting marketing tactic, and it is. Why is that a negative on Merc? It IS an interesting tactic and it WILL be interesting to see what happens. It is clever, can't you at least give them that? Geez, come on, where do you get this stuff? j.
Ed Z	posted 09-10-2003 01:26 AM ET (US) After reading all these differing points of veiw about motors and inovation, kinda makes me wish Dick Fisher had stayed with the business and producing Bearcat engines... Mine is 34 years old and still running great... I compare this engine to the 4 strokes on the market today and have yet to see a superior design... Every one of them is at least 100 lbs heavier, none will idle at 600 RPM, or get 40 minutes on a quart of fuel (trolling)... Tell me, why is it there is nothing out there in the 85 hp range that compairs in weight, fuel economy, or durability to what Dick made 34 years ago.???
nevada	posted 09-10-2003 10:31 AM ET (US) Ed here is a sight that may interest you, <http://www.adventurebearcatmarine.com/> Joe