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Author Topic:   Which Whaler is Best in Rough Water

Baess Boats posted 09-17-2003 03:06 PM ET (US)
Hi,
I would like to purchase a Whaler 17-20' in length. I would use the boat in an area that can quickly change from calm seas to gale force winds and heavy chop. The question is - which hull design or era of Whalers would best suit my needs? Any feedback is appreciated. Thanks.
unsinkable_2000 posted 09-17-2003 03:13 PM ET (US)
In that size range in my experience having had a mid 80's 18'6 Outrage was a great rough-water rider. The earlier 16'7 hulls will give you a fair beating, but the later Montauks are a bit of an improvement. I really like the 80's - 90's generation of Outrage/Guardian hulls like I have on my Frontier 25, they do a good job, very solid. I don't have much experience with the Outrage hulls of late but perhaps someone else may be able to help you there. I recently went on a friend's Montauk 170 in a good chop with the standard Brunswick/Merc 90 and that boat rode beautifully, and a pretty dry ride as well. Hope that helps
Jerry Townsend posted 09-17-2003 04:51 PM ET (US)
In the 17 - 20 foot range, you should really be looking at the Outrage 'series'. The Outrage will handle the bigger water better than the Montauk design.
In the Outrage designs - there is the so-called "classic" and the "post classic" designs and there are advantages and disadvantages to each. The so-called "classic" Outrage is relatively light. The "post-classic' is a bit heavier and therefore requires more power (horsepower and gallons of gas). Being heavier also means that the ride is relatively smoother for the same wave or water condition. The "post classic" boats are also wider, are a bit longer, have a deeper "V" - all of which, in addition to the added weight makes it more stable than the "classic" design. The "post-classic" designs also have more free-board.
The definition of the so-called "classic" is somewhat fickle and undefined - that is, some define it as being built before 1990 and then, some say that it is built before 1995 - yet, others suggest the newer Montauks as being "classic". I totally disregard that debate. Regardless - they are Whalers and in every case, a very fine boat that you can depend on - flat guaranteed! ---- Jerry/Idaho
Tom2697 posted 09-17-2003 04:51 PM ET (US)
I've ridden in most of the Classic hulls and a few of the Outrages in various sizes. What I've found is that "bigger is better" when is comes to riding through chop. Once the seas start growing, a small boat just doesn't have the waterline length to ride atop the crests. A larger boat can ride over 3 or 4 chop waves while a smaller boat will ride on maybe 2. The more waves the boat is riding on, the more level the boat stays and the less pounding you will experience. Obviously, the hull shape also makes a difference. The Outrage lines are more suited for the rough stuff than are the Classics. A 17 Outrage should handle chop better than a Montauk. But, consider other factors into your purchase. For example, what type of vehicle will you tow with? Do you want a fishing machine or a runabout style? Will you only be fishing deep water or will shallow water also be a key?
elaelap posted 09-17-2003 06:05 PM ET (US)
Baess Boats,
I fish a '71 smirkless 16'7" Katama (very light, cathedral hull similar to the first Montauks) in the relatively rough waters 45-80 miles north-west of San Francisco. Not unfrequently I fish between 6-14 miles offshore. While I get beat up at times, mostly from the small stuff, I've felt comfortable, dry and secure in seas which keep most non-Whaler boats less than 20' in length at the ramp.
This is my first Whaler, so I can't help you with comparisons. All I can say is, don't be afraid of the smaller BWs. At least one guy I know regularly fishes a 15 out of Bodega Bay without trouble, and there are literally dozens of Montauks bouncing around out here when the salmon are on the bite, sometimes in relatively challenging seas (8-12 ft swells, with windwaves on top).
Tony
JohnJ80 posted 09-17-2003 11:59 PM ET (US)
I have had my Dauntless 15 out in all conditions include 40kn+ blows with wind driven short period waves of 4' with no problems. Didn't even get wet.
I think any whaler in the 17-20' range will be just fine. You will feel very secure and you will stay pretty dry.
J
Clark Roberts posted 09-18-2003 06:36 AM ET (US)
Classic Outrage 18... 18'6'LOA
elaelap posted 09-18-2003 08:27 AM ET (US)
"...UNfrequently...[!?]"
FLUKEDUKE posted 09-18-2003 08:35 AM ET (US)
In the north easts typical wave spacing the boat length threshold for "riding on top" is probably around 30', the only other boats that seem to handle it quite well are the semi-displacement, "down east" style hulls, Fortier, General marine, Sisu, etc. in the 26' range, if you exclude this catagory the classic 18 Outrage would definitely be the no. 1 choice.
Royce posted 09-19-2003 12:23 AM ET (US)
Baess Boats- Where will you be running this new boat? I have an 1988 Outrage 18 parked next to a 1996 Outrage 20 with the Accutrac hull. I could E-mail you a photo. There is quite a difference in weight and over all size. The 20 is 1000 lbs. heavier and about a foot wider. It has higher gunnels, two large fish boxes, an anchor locker and bow pulpit. The 18 is powered by a 150hp. whereas the 20 has a 200hp. The 18 is a wonderful boat for the bays and ocean on a fairly nice day--the 20 is a much safer boat when things get rougher or you want to venture farther offshore. I am selling my OR 20 because I have just finished my OR 25-- I also like the lines of the 1980's hulls better. From a safety and performance point of view the 1996 Outrage 20 is a better for the ocean and bay than the OR 18. Let me know if you want to see the photo.
Royce
timbaho posted 09-19-2003 04:32 PM ET (US)
Baess boats,
Your question is probably answered best by looking to the people that make their living in those kind of seas not a bunch of novist fair weather boaters like us. It's obvious the Coasties like the 80's-90's era outrage hull design and if your talking 17-20' I would definitely go with the 20' Guardian with the bulkhead option in front of the splashwell. That is the most seaworthy boat for it's size on the ocean in my opinion. I just so happen to own one and looked for a long time to find it. An "old salt" fisherman came up to me on 9/13/03 just as I was about to launch out of Steinhatchee, Fla for a 35 mile offshore trip and quietly started looking my boat over and then looked dead straight at me and said,"I owe my life to one of these 20' Whalers. Some very brave men and this type boat brought me in out of an offshore storm in Alaska in the 1980's after his own 35' vessel capsized taking the lives of one of my crew" It was very comforting to here such a testimony about a piece of equipment that I was about to align my life with. I hope this is the kind of educated advice you were hunting. Kevin

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Author	Topic: Which Whaler is Best in Rough Water
Baess Boats	posted 09-17-2003 03:06 PM ET (US) Hi, I would like to purchase a Whaler 17-20' in length. I would use the boat in an area that can quickly change from calm seas to gale force winds and heavy chop. The question is - which hull design or era of Whalers would best suit my needs? Any feedback is appreciated. Thanks.
unsinkable_2000	posted 09-17-2003 03:13 PM ET (US) In that size range in my experience having had a mid 80's 18'6 Outrage was a great rough-water rider. The earlier 16'7 hulls will give you a fair beating, but the later Montauks are a bit of an improvement. I really like the 80's - 90's generation of Outrage/Guardian hulls like I have on my Frontier 25, they do a good job, very solid. I don't have much experience with the Outrage hulls of late but perhaps someone else may be able to help you there. I recently went on a friend's Montauk 170 in a good chop with the standard Brunswick/Merc 90 and that boat rode beautifully, and a pretty dry ride as well. Hope that helps
Jerry Townsend	posted 09-17-2003 04:51 PM ET (US) In the 17 - 20 foot range, you should really be looking at the Outrage 'series'. The Outrage will handle the bigger water better than the Montauk design. In the Outrage designs - there is the so-called "classic" and the "post classic" designs and there are advantages and disadvantages to each. The so-called "classic" Outrage is relatively light. The "post-classic' is a bit heavier and therefore requires more power (horsepower and gallons of gas). Being heavier also means that the ride is relatively smoother for the same wave or water condition. The "post classic" boats are also wider, are a bit longer, have a deeper "V" - all of which, in addition to the added weight makes it more stable than the "classic" design. The "post-classic" designs also have more free-board. The definition of the so-called "classic" is somewhat fickle and undefined - that is, some define it as being built before 1990 and then, some say that it is built before 1995 - yet, others suggest the newer Montauks as being "classic". I totally disregard that debate. Regardless - they are Whalers and in every case, a very fine boat that you can depend on - flat guaranteed! ---- Jerry/Idaho
Tom2697	posted 09-17-2003 04:51 PM ET (US) I've ridden in most of the Classic hulls and a few of the Outrages in various sizes. What I've found is that "bigger is better" when is comes to riding through chop. Once the seas start growing, a small boat just doesn't have the waterline length to ride atop the crests. A larger boat can ride over 3 or 4 chop waves while a smaller boat will ride on maybe 2. The more waves the boat is riding on, the more level the boat stays and the less pounding you will experience. Obviously, the hull shape also makes a difference. The Outrage lines are more suited for the rough stuff than are the Classics. A 17 Outrage should handle chop better than a Montauk. But, consider other factors into your purchase. For example, what type of vehicle will you tow with? Do you want a fishing machine or a runabout style? Will you only be fishing deep water or will shallow water also be a key?
elaelap	posted 09-17-2003 06:05 PM ET (US) Baess Boats, I fish a '71 smirkless 16'7" Katama (very light, cathedral hull similar to the first Montauks) in the relatively rough waters 45-80 miles north-west of San Francisco. Not unfrequently I fish between 6-14 miles offshore. While I get beat up at times, mostly from the small stuff, I've felt comfortable, dry and secure in seas which keep most non-Whaler boats less than 20' in length at the ramp. This is my first Whaler, so I can't help you with comparisons. All I can say is, don't be afraid of the smaller BWs. At least one guy I know regularly fishes a 15 out of Bodega Bay without trouble, and there are literally dozens of Montauks bouncing around out here when the salmon are on the bite, sometimes in relatively challenging seas (8-12 ft swells, with windwaves on top). Tony
JohnJ80	posted 09-17-2003 11:59 PM ET (US) I have had my Dauntless 15 out in all conditions include 40kn+ blows with wind driven short period waves of 4' with no problems. Didn't even get wet. I think any whaler in the 17-20' range will be just fine. You will feel very secure and you will stay pretty dry. J
Clark Roberts	posted 09-18-2003 06:36 AM ET (US) Classic Outrage 18... 18'6'LOA
elaelap	posted 09-18-2003 08:27 AM ET (US) "...UNfrequently...[!?]"
FLUKEDUKE	posted 09-18-2003 08:35 AM ET (US) In the north easts typical wave spacing the boat length threshold for "riding on top" is probably around 30', the only other boats that seem to handle it quite well are the semi-displacement, "down east" style hulls, Fortier, General marine, Sisu, etc. in the 26' range, if you exclude this catagory the classic 18 Outrage would definitely be the no. 1 choice.
Royce	posted 09-19-2003 12:23 AM ET (US) Baess Boats- Where will you be running this new boat? I have an 1988 Outrage 18 parked next to a 1996 Outrage 20 with the Accutrac hull. I could E-mail you a photo. There is quite a difference in weight and over all size. The 20 is 1000 lbs. heavier and about a foot wider. It has higher gunnels, two large fish boxes, an anchor locker and bow pulpit. The 18 is powered by a 150hp. whereas the 20 has a 200hp. The 18 is a wonderful boat for the bays and ocean on a fairly nice day--the 20 is a much safer boat when things get rougher or you want to venture farther offshore. I am selling my OR 20 because I have just finished my OR 25-- I also like the lines of the 1980's hulls better. From a safety and performance point of view the 1996 Outrage 20 is a better for the ocean and bay than the OR 18. Let me know if you want to see the photo. Royce
timbaho	posted 09-19-2003 04:32 PM ET (US) Baess boats, Your question is probably answered best by looking to the people that make their living in those kind of seas not a bunch of novist fair weather boaters like us. It's obvious the Coasties like the 80's-90's era outrage hull design and if your talking 17-20' I would definitely go with the 20' Guardian with the bulkhead option in front of the splashwell. That is the most seaworthy boat for it's size on the ocean in my opinion. I just so happen to own one and looked for a long time to find it. An "old salt" fisherman came up to me on 9/13/03 just as I was about to launch out of Steinhatchee, Fla for a 35 mile offshore trip and quietly started looking my boat over and then looked dead straight at me and said,"I owe my life to one of these 20' Whalers. Some very brave men and this type boat brought me in out of an offshore storm in Alaska in the 1980's after his own 35' vessel capsized taking the lives of one of my crew" It was very comforting to here such a testimony about a piece of equipment that I was about to align my life with. I hope this is the kind of educated advice you were hunting. Kevin