posted 12-24-2003 01:17 PM ET (US)        

My dream Whaler, and probably the most desired classic, is the late 'eighties 18/19 Outrage. I'm looking for a nice one right now out here in Northern California, and would probably travel a substantial distance to tow the right one back if I can't find one locally and the opportunity presented itself elsewhere. Now my what-if...

What if Boston Whaler marketed that exact hull today, stripped down, no wood, no motor, no "improvements," nothing but a bare Outrage hull on a decent trailer. Would many of you jump at the chance to buy one, perhaps for seven or eight thousand bucks? I know I would.

Now to realities and Buckda's comments -- if BW/Brunswick felt a substantial demand from enthusiastic CW members, perhaps even including contractual purchase commitments from enough of us, do you think it would motivate them to produce such a boat. Do they still have the molds, which would make production an inexpensive breeze? Would they be willing to break with their insistence on selling a new craft only with a no-option motor? Most importantly, I guess, would their bottom line justify such an endeavor...would they make a decent profit producing a spare, relatively inexpensive, utilitarian boat without all the add-ons and googaws?

Please don't tell me that BW already produces a similar craft in its commercial division...that's not what I'm talking about at all. Those are too pricey for the mass market, too custom and too individualized. I'm dreaming of a brand new white-hulled eighteen foot minimalist Outrage sitting in my driveway, ready for me to customize exactly the way I wish.

Any of this make any sense, guys...anybody want to stir up a little internet chatter a la Buckda and see if the powers that be respond?

Tony

posted 12-24-2003 02:06 PM ET (US)            

Here is where 2 problem lay. To produce a LESS Expensive hull still would take a order of at least 75-100 hulls to make it profitable. Can you present that order to Whaler?
Probably not. There are people out there that will not comprimise for 2nd best. That is what Whaler wants and that is what they produce. MC and Whaler both have a reputation to uphold and not go backwards.

Just wanted to add my 3 cents to this one
Hope it helps Happy Holidays

witsendfl

posted 12-24-2003 02:11 PM ET (US)            

I think you could satisfy some of this demand with an order from the Brunswick Commercial and Government Products division, but without the wood trim most likely.

posted 12-24-2003 02:20 PM ET (US)            

For that, you got the hull, the "G4" fiberglass console, a heavy duty leaning post with handrail, and basic navigation lighting. All other items, batteries, trailer, powerplant, etc is spec'd. and priced individually. Figure 789 additional dollars for changing the gelcoat color to white (x2 - the charge is for each - inner and outer hull liners).

I love the idea of a company making extremely limited runs of specific models available for purchase by the public. I'm just not sure that they can make it work in terms of what the public is willing to spend; and they also run the risk of then actually selling these less expensive versions of the commercial product to commercial customers.

When I spec'd out my "custom 18 outrage" using a CGPD hull, the price came in somewhere around $55K with a single 150 HP Mercury. That did not include the Canvas System I'd like to purchase from Mills.

I am not sure I totally understand WHY the old hulls are so expensive (I mean, they've had the molds for 30 years - it's not like much has changed there) but they really are.

I'd be willing to pay in the high $20K's for a "new" Dougherty-designed Outrage 18 with no power - but with a standard set of options.

What would interest me, is if we could at least begin preliminary work with a factory rep to determine a quantity of interested parties, and agree on a specified list of options - with no other options available. We then could work with the company to determine a price point at which the majority of the group would be willing to sign a contractual purchase agreement; at which point the company could investigate if they could turn a wide enough profit margin to make it worth their while.

I would be interested in this process - we do much of the effort with a company liaison up front with no committment necessary on the part of BW until they have a chance to analyze if it would work...it would be a direct order from the factory, or could be brokered through a master dealer with all boats shipped to one destination (purchasers would be responsible for transport to final destination).

Interesting concept Tony. Do you think that this would represent a step forward for a company to consider this? (It certainly would represent ultra-responsive customer service.)

We may be pipe dreaming about this level of interaction/influence on a company's products. My post in META was a little more from an informational and company messages standpoint.

posted 12-24-2003 02:26 PM ET (US)            

I think we could fill an order for about 50 - 75 boats if we worked at it (think about that marketing concept - your customers out there FINDING more for you!) - but again it would take a bit of negotiation among the potential buyers to come up with a standard, simple boat that everyone agreed was "enough" - and then we'd have to work out pricing.

I wonder if we should work up a proposal and send it off to the good folks in Edgewater?

posted 12-24-2003 02:42 PM ET (US)            

Here's what you said above:

[i]Please don't tell me that BW already produces a similar craft in its commercial division...that's not what I'm talking about at all. Those are too pricey for the mass market, too custom and too individualized.[/i/]

Well, I'm going to tell you anyway. I completely understand your sentiments and we have had such discussions here on the CW Forum many, many times. There is no reason why you cannot order a 19 Guardian in Desert Tan. You are not obliged to buy their commercial console and leaning post. And you need not buy an outboard motor with it. You can equip it just as you please but there are going to be some hurdles, not the least of which is the price.

There is no way Boston Whaler (or Brunswick Commercial and Government Products, Inc.) can sell a "minimalist Outrage" for seven or eight thousand dollars. You can however, price out a 19 Guardian molded in Desert Tan (NOT white!) and equipped with a Montauk Console. You will be on your own to supply teak and hardware that matches the original, but we've covered those sources and work arounds several times here on the Forum.

In the end I suspect you are going to find that the real price of such a boat is going to be near what a new Nantucket sells for. And this is another problem:

I suspect Boston Whaler would not be too thrilled to produce a boat that competes with what they are trying to sell now. I'm sure they would rather just sell you a new Nantucket.

posted 12-24-2003 02:55 PM ET (US)            

JimH, count me in if a realistic group purchasing effort appears doable and financially feasible...I'd be glad to do some of the contract work-up and/or review for the group, if that's any help. Meanwhile I'm gonna keep looking for that perfect $8,000 shrink-wrapped 18/19 Outrage, always garaged, rarely used and then in fresh water only, low-hour motor packed in cosmoline, owned by a little old lady, etc, etc...good luck!

Great post over in Meta, Dave.

posted 12-24-2003 03:17 PM ET (US)            

I could care less about the color. In my fantasy BW would produce the bare hull in one color only (sorta like Mr. Ford and his Model T -- you can have it in any color you like, as long as it's black).

posted 12-24-2003 03:46 PM ET (US)            

It's a good thing you don't care about the color because a custom gel coat color has a 2003 retail price of $789 an that's for EACH mold, so if you want Desert Tan on both the interior and exterior skins, it adds $1,578 to the price.

Actually, I just perused the 2003 CGP price list and noted only one delete option for the 19' Guardian, the leaning post which, if deleted, would save you $1,675 or about enough to pay for the Desert Tan gel coat.

The base price for the 19' Guardian is $21,860. There is the additional problem of buying a hull that does not have a steering system installed on it. The maximum horsepower rating will be reduced by as much as half.

If you were to buy a CGP bare hull you would want to talk the factory out of equipping it with their rub rail, gunwale boards, cleats, rails, console or leaning post. It might be rather difficult to actually do this.

But look at the bright side, there are used Outrage 18s out there which in the end will be a MUCH better bargain. I bought mine used and I cannot hardly think of anything that was not perfect for me once I got through cleaning it up and modifying it to my needs. I spent nothing even close to what it would have cost new even back then (c. 1990).

posted 12-24-2003 03:59 PM ET (US)            

I fish on a particular lake a couple weeks out of the season. This lake has an abundant supply of Black Nats. These Nats seem to prefer the color WHITE... When I used to take my (White) 1997 Outrage 17 there, the boat would be covered with approximately 75% more Nats then my buddies Whaler which was Desert Tan. My boat looked almost Black.. Maybe Ford had a good idea about Black.

Anyway, I know everyone probably isn't bothered by these small bugs but they sure did bug me.. Luckily, they were the Non-Biting variety. One thing you don't want to do is open a console door and take a breathe, you will choke on those little critters.

Now that I am using my 1985 Outrage 18 there, I have a lot less bugs on the boat.

Merry Christmas,
Joe

posted 12-24-2003 04:12 PM ET (US)            

I suspect the CPD boats are priced a bit higher in order to provide room to offer quantity discounts and still make close to the same per boat profit.

posted 12-24-2003 08:38 PM ET (US)            

Thanks, as always, to all you guys for your thoughtful and informative comments. Merry Christmas.

posted 01-02-2004 07:13 PM ET (US)            

The way I see it though, is that there are some pretty powerful up-sides that may (or may not, depending on your love of the classic hullform and your willingness/budget for an 18 footer) offset the increased costs.

First, you have a NEW hull; with NEW everything and a NEW warranty (good for 10 years). While depriciation is a b***h, there really is something to be said about being the only owner. Unless you can find a hull where the previous owner was very fastidious and kept the boat in original condition with no/minimal modifications, there is no other way to experience this (or, as in the case of LHG, has made excellent rigging decisions and then maintained the boat with particular care and fervor..but even then, good luck convincing that person to SELL his baby!). Taking this into consideration really does narrow down the field a bit, eh? Now think about where the boat has been...saltwater or freshwater? Moored or trailered? Painted or not? Where have previous owners drilled holes, and did they patch them/seal them adequately? Granted, these things are often of minimal concern given these hulls. The initial price points on them lent them to owners who had the means and inclination to take good care of them.

Second, the CGPD hull will be a "beefier" hull than that used Outrage - newer foam, newer materials, no stress on the transom, no questions about how many "bad days at sea" the boat has been through. No questions, it will be brand new, and will be "built for the mission," as they say.

Are these things worth paying an extra $15K to $25K?

I don't know. I ask you. If they are, or if you have other reasons, list them here or make known your desire for a new CGPD Guardian 19' hull with desert tan gelcoat. As Jaccoserv suggests; we may get BW to play, or at least entertain the idea. I would think that with an order of 5 or more hulls, the folks at BW would be willing to negotiate (within reason) on pricing. (I can't imagine that a majority of the CGPD customers order more than 5 hulls at a time, save major Police entities and Coast Guard stations. I think Chicago has maybe 10 of them, and I doubt they are all the same model year.

Happy New Year.

Dave

posted 01-02-2004 07:15 PM ET (US)            

I can see a time in the future where the CGPD is using only the newer hullforms and the ONLY way to get an older design hull is to buy an older hull. Just my $.02.

posted 01-15-2004 06:51 PM ET (US)            

I think that's the biggest reason that there is not more of a push for consumers to buy the commercial hull.

The only "tangible" benefits of buying a commercial hull are the warranty and the "no sweat equity needed" aspect, plus it comes rigged with new power, also under warranty.

I think if you have the wherewithal, and have been around long enough to KNOW that you will keep that boat indefinitely, a commercial hull is the way to go because you benefit from the warranties, and being the only owner (you know EXACTLY what you have).

I agree that the cost efficient way to go is to purchase an older hull; especially since they are somewhat avaialable for now...but eventually, finding a good hull will become pretty tough..it is already difficult to find a good 18. Then you have to repair any damage/rigging mistakes when you re-rig it.

There is something to be said about getting a new boat exactly how you want it, isn't there?

Is it worth the pricing differentiation? Don't know...just bringing it up. I think it may be.

posted 01-15-2004 07:59 PM ET (US)         

Dave, word has it there are presently at least 50 25 Guardian/Raiders being built right now for the USCG, rigged with twin Merc 150 2-strokes. So there are some quantity buyers out there.

For a new 19 Guardian, I don't think 22K is a bad deal at all. It's a lot of first class boat. More people here should consider one while they are still available.

I think if someone here did a project 19 Guardian boat, just for the fun of it, and rigged it up as close to an 18 Outrage as possible, with a single 150 2-stroke, I think he'd have a terrible time just trying to sell it for what he put in it, which would be about 34K, same price as a Nantucket.

posted 01-16-2004 09:01 AM ET (US)            

I don't doubt for a minute that there are some quantity buyers out there - but I do doubt that they are paying list price.

I don't think it would be unreasonable to approach BW to see what could be done, if there was considerable interest. As they say "the worst answer you can get is 'no.'" What then? We're in no different position than we are right now.

I agree with you that several of the posts about desired price have been low...but you chided me for estimating too high, remember? :)

Any way you cut it, the 18 foot classic Whaler hull is likely to be available as a newly constructed hull for a few more years yet, but not indefinitely, and not avalable recently constructed hulls will not likely have the appealing white or desert tan gelcoat.
I agree with you that more people should consider them - I just think that if we worked together, we might get BW to shave a bit off the price tag for a group buy if we all agreed on the basic boat and ordered uniformly and as a group.

We have the talent and experience in the group: attorneys to organize and arrange official agreements between the individual parties; people with experience buying from the CGPD; individuals who are dealers or have been dealers, and can help us navigate any challenges we face on that front; individuals with relationships to suppliers; etc.

Think of it as a "CW Buyers club." Judging soley by the quality of the posts by many members, and the professions represented by this group, I would think that we would be a pretty valuable audience for any merchant.

posted 01-16-2004 04:06 PM ET (US)            

And you still aren't going to get an 18 Outrage.

If the weight spec is anywhere near accurate, the 19 Guardian is 500 lbs, or about three average sized men, heavier than the 18' Outrage classic proponents prize for its light weight. With two aboard, the 19 Guardian should handle more like the 18 Outrage with five aboard, right? Put wood on it and it's going to get worse.

With that much more weight on the same hull form, I'd question the CPD 10" draft spec being the same as the 18 Outrage, and sure wouldn't count on polling through Hooter's 11" flats like he says you can in an 18 Outrage. You MIGHT still have slightly shallower draft than the Nantucket spec, but in real world conditions, especially with dual motors, the difference may be even less... or none. Will the top of the 19 Guardian transom be as close to the water with a motor as the 18 Outrage with duals? See what a difference the CPD hull weight makes on a 15:

http://home.hiwaay.net/~sickler/enter/bostonwhalers/glsl&glsII/2%20stern%20view%20lrez.jpg

Are you gonna WANT dual outboards on it, not only because of the lower freeboard, but especially if you have to take a Mercury offering, which means you're limited to two 50 or 60 HP carbed two-smokes to stay under the 470 pound max motor weight? That heavier boat sure isn't going to perform with those motors like a lighter 18 Outrage with dual 70HP Yamaha carbed two-smokes.

With a lotta work and wood, you might make it LOOK like a classic 18, but it ain't gonna perform like one... and maybe even not as well as a 190 Nantucket with a 115 HP four-stroke.

posted 01-16-2004 04:45 PM ET (US)            

First though, I want to correct the remark
about the pair of 15s shown in the image.

I don't know what draft difference
you will see between the two hulls UNRIGGED,
but I can assure you, the CPD hull with a
60 HP Yamaha 4 stroke on it is not a valid comparison
to the classic with a 50 HP 2 stroke.

Back to the 18 footers, I tend to agree with Moe
in that I'm not particularly interested in getting
the heavier Guardian with the same HP rating.
For this very reason, I am not even looking at post '92 19' Outrage IIs.

Not only do I not care for the additional tonnage,
I don't care for many of the built-ins,
i.e. seat base, stern quarter seats, molded in console.
The inability to install twins on the Outrage II
comes in at a distant 2nd or 3rd in reasons for my
lack of interest.

Any comments on how to maintain the agility and nimble power
of the classic Outrage on a new Guardian platform?

posted 01-16-2004 05:22 PM ET (US)            

I respect your opinions and am totally on board with several of your comments. There would definitely be some tradeoffs made to have the hull.

But I think there are some additional points to touch on:

There is not even the option of putting twins on a Nantucket.

The existence of exterior wood is not the only characteristic of classic Whalers...the Hullform is really what I am after, not necessarily the wood.

My father owns a 22' Guardian with a 250 HP Yamaha. The performance of this boat is more than adequate. I suspect it would be the same for an 18 foot version.

Personally, if I were to go with twins, I would go over the HP rating (i.e. I'd go with twin 90's). I don't believe this would make performance or lack therof an issue.
I don't think there would be a noticable, or more importantly, performance or safety limiting, problem with a Guardian hull, even if rigged with resonable twins...there is PLENTY of reserve bouyancy in these hulls.

I believe I did acknowledge the point about resale...this would have to be a decision you were willing to live with in exchange for the "new construction" classic hull.

Also, something I didn't really consider being from the Midwest, where 4 strokes are not yet being phased in by regulation; since I still have the choice, and because of weight issues, the 2-stroke was the only engine package I was thinking about. (it will be interesting to see if they change the specs to accomodate the larger 4-stroke engines as they continue to gain popularity and market share. I suspect that they will make the rating meet the specs of Mercury's new 4 strokes, but not high enough to accomodate competitor 4-strokes...it's what I would do..)

...and that last point really illustrates the reason that both boats are available: the majority of people want the newer hull design, and are looking for the newest things. Moe, by your purchase of a new 150 sport (a fine little craft by all accounts) and your love of the 4-stroke engines, I am sure you would not be a person who was motivated to make a purchase of a Guardian hull...if you were to "go big" - you'd probably buy either the Nantucket or the new 210 Outrage.

I, and I'm sure at least a few people here, would rather have a classic design...and speaking just for me, if I could manage it, I would prefer to have a "new construction" hull, if I could make it work.

But the original intent of this post goes far beyond what Moe wants, or what I want..it is about the possibility of getting a group of buyers together to explore pricing and availability of a classic hull to motivated and specific customers.

posted 01-16-2004 05:35 PM ET (US)         

A pair of Mercury 90's should PERFORM the same as a single EFI 150, so nobody is putting life and limb at risk with twin 90's on a Guardian.

posted 01-16-2004 05:37 PM ET (US)            

I wonder if we should work up a proposal and send it off to the good folks in Edgewater?

Dave

END POST ---

The power of PR that something like this could generate for Whaler could make this idea even more attractive to Whaler.

I can definitely see a story in boating magazines about how a company managed to motivate it's customers to go out and evangelize the brand. That is truly legendary in marketing...

posted 01-16-2004 07:31 PM ET (US)         

I wonder why this is so, but tends to indicate that BW would have a hard time selling these again as recreational boats.
Demand, relative to the cost, seems to be nil in the face of competition from all the used models out there.

posted 01-16-2004 08:09 PM ET (US)            

Most people on this site already have a BW, and in addition, are:
a) still paying for it, or
b) happy with their boat, or
c) looking for a used boat because of:
1)lack of awareness about the commercial hull option
2)lack of knowledge to appropriately spec a CGPD hull
3)financial limitations

I would suspect that if the original 18' Outrage became widely available to consumers, BW would sell a fair share of them - even if they made it a limited edition, for instance, a 25th or 30th Anniversary Edition (hint, hint, BW lurkers).

Retro is still selling:
Coleman has a retro, Stainless steel cooler that weighs in at almost twice the price of a comparative capacity cooler, but they nearly sold out of them almost everywhere I looked this Christmas.
Retro-Styled automobiles are selling well.
Retro boats are selling well too. Chris-Craft has introduced classic, if somewhat overpriced, vessels that strongly evoke the lines of their mahogany predecessors.

I think a retro hull with a modern powerplant would probably garner quite a bit of interest.

My problem with buying old is this: The people I would trust to buy their 25 year old boat are the ones who love them enough to take exceptional care of them...those same people are not likely to want to part with them...aside from hanging around at estate sales.

For the amount of time/effort and even expense you can put into finding a good, used BW 18' Outrage, you essentially have spent the extra money that spec'ing a commercial boat will cost you to buy with relatively no hassle...I guess it really depends on the value you place on your most precious asset of all, your time.

posted 01-16-2004 09:48 PM ET (US)            

However, I wasn't sure others here understood the 19 Guardian isn't the 18 Outrage, and won't have Hooter's "Corvette" handling or likely slip through his 11" flats.

You and Larry might, but I'm not sure how many others would be willing to dip into the reserve bouyancy, overload the transom limit by 130 pounds with two 300 pound 90HP motors (and hence void the 10 year warranty you covet), be willing to violate a state law against overpowering by 30 horsepower, or deal with the difficulty of finding insurance for an overpowered boat... all just to try to make the heavier Guardian have near the same weight/horsepower and what some term "responsiveness," as the 18 Outrage with two 230 pound 70s. Nor would some want a boat that sits in the water (looking to me) like the stern is overloaded, like this: http://continuouswave.com/whaler/rendezvous/NC2000/images/outrage18-512x346.jpeg Sure, some of the hot-rodders might think that's fine. As with most 18 Outrage owners, most considering the 19 Guardian will want a single engine.

All that money and hassle just gets you a heavy, faux classic with a 10 year warranty. Danged expensive warranty considering what you can get a more light and nimble, real classic for (with wood already in place). But like I said, it's your money.

LOL, I don't think you'll find 5-7 buyers, much less 50-75, who could even agree upon a standard configuration not considering the motor, but especially if it was for a single 90 as Larry suggests. If you all agreed on single 135 or 150 Optis, you might get a handful to agree on all the other options. Then, Dave, if YOU had TRAFFICLAWYERS money and bartering skills, you could do as he did and trade the delivered engine for what you want (including extra riggins and gauges in your case). Others may benefit, but I doubt you'd come out any further ahead than paying list for a CPD boat up front.

And Larry, most of the original owners of all these classics traded them for newer, more comfortable Whalers... the classics taken to the next level. ;-)

posted 01-16-2004 10:22 PM ET (US)            

Dave, if we go "big," it would probably be the 220 Dauntless as soon as she saw that roomy head in the console and the big sofa across the stern. :-) Maybe even a 210 Ventura if the head isn't too tight. We both also really like the Grady 208, so I think Whaler's missing out without the 21 WA.

You're right about nostalgia. We've dropped some big bucks in the past few years on two new Harleys, and a new 34' Airstream trailer (as well as the requisite new Ford Superduty to pull it with), and we've got a lot of company in both camps, particularly with the Harleys. Many of us are buying today's "Legend" or euro-transomed Whalers out of nostalgia as much as the legendary unsinkability and stability. It may be hard for classic-lovers to understand, but it's true. And Whaler's playing to it big-time in their marketing.

Comfort and practicality is often more important than having a higher technology exact copy when it comes to buying nostalgia these days. Heck, our memories aren't that clear anyway, LOL! The Airstreams aren't quite as rounded as they used to be, but there's a heck of a lot more room in the overhead cabinets! And the wood is even more beautiful than before. PT Cruisers aren't exact duplicates of anything and they're hot.

Anyway, that's one perspective from someone who's investing heavily in nostalgia.

posted 01-18-2004 01:57 PM ET (US)            

You're right about the warranty thing; it is a significant roadblock in my path right now, and believe me, the wheels have been turning on that one (perhaps LHG can comment here - I believe he ordered an empty transom and rigged it himself; but perhaps can comment on the warranty question); and the point made about a de-rated hull if ordered with an empty transom is a good one.

I don't believe it will be excessively hard to find an insurance carrier for a somewhat over the hp rated boat. Plenty of guys here and elsewhere have managed.

I also totally agree with the point about it being a very expensive route "just to get a warranty" - especially if you voided the warranty through a preferred power option.

I guess my concern is that there are not a lot of really clean 18' Outrage hulls available anymore; and they will only continue to become less and less common as time goes on. That is not to say that my search will not continue - as a matter of fact, I'm really not in a huge hurry right now - I would not even classify myself as "actively in the market"...but I will be soon (and with the 8 month lead time on a Commercial hull, and the time needed to spec it ahead of that, the delivery through that route would probably come at exactly the right time (Truck paid for, school loans done (finally!), etc...).

I do, however believe that for a minimum option, base power (135 or 150HP)and basically outfitted hull, there might be interest among the membership for a group buy, which could save us all 10 - 15%, and as LHG notes, we could find additional suppliers to provide the other options.

We keep going back to the wood. My classic 15' Sport has no wood. The wood or lack therof on a commercial hull is not a dealbreaker for me...but perhaps it is with others.

posted 01-18-2004 07:41 PM ET (US)         

Actually on my 25 Outrage, the original raw water washdown pump failed in the first year, and BW replaced it under the warranty, in full view of the twin 200's.

If you take my particular situations, you can see why I wasn't worried about hull damage from my engine choices.

1971 Nauset, rated for 100HP. In those days Mercury made three in-line six engines, 90 (legal on the boat), 115, & 135/150HP. They all weighed & looked the same, and carb jetting and timing made the HP differences. How could this be a problem for boat hull failure? It wasn't.

1986 18 Outrage, rated for 150HP. Mercury's 75HP 2-strokes have weighed 303 lbs since 1989. Two of them would be within the boat's rating. My Merc 115's also weigh 305# each. Where is the hull failure risk here from HP? There is none. Boat is now 18 years old and still perfect.

1989 25 Outrage, full transom blank, rated for 300HP. First of all the Whaler drive model is rated for 450HP. Secondly, Mercury's V-6 150 and V-6 200 are the same engine again, same weight. No big deal on this one either. The hull easily handles the HP. Boat is now 15 years old and still perfect.

posted 01-21-2004 10:59 AM ET (US)            

That being said, I strongly relate to Dave's comments about the pleasure of owning a new boat (which I've never enjoyed, even though my immediate family and I have owned seven boats, not counting dingys and daysailers, over the past fifty years...always "pre-owned"). The thought of beginning with an absolutely bare, classic, brand new Outrage hull and slowly, as my energy, time and finances allowed, designing and constructing it to my exact specifications is extremely attractive; not only because I would forever know about its use, construction and condition, but also because of the creative challenge it would pose -- building (cobbling together) the perfect (for me) fishing/cruising craft for my uses. It would also be fun, interesting and informative to see how others designed and constructed their boats from the ground up, as opposed to pouring over glossy catalogs which tout the perfection of boats designed by a distant, not-always-responsive-to-consumers, corporate design team.

Oh well, when I was very young (20), very broke, and just beginning a life-long passion for photography (which eventually led to my first career as a journalist), I answered an ad in a throw-away supermarket "newspaper" posted by a woman whose husband, a photography hobbiest, had just died, and I picked up my first Leica rangefinder camera (an M3 body with a 35 mm Summicron lens, for you photo buffs who will really understand) in a leather case and in perfect condition, for a hundred bucks. Maybe that woman's daughter's husband, a westcoast Whaler enthusiast, has just passed away and the sweet old widow wants to unload his cream puff Outrage, cheap, cheap, cheap, to me. See, I'm still living in dreamland...

posted 01-21-2004 11:40 AM ET (US)            

I have owned five different Whalers. Two of those boats (my Stiper 15 and first Montauk) were bought new by me. In fact they were special ordered so they would be equipped exactly as I wanted them.

In both cases I thought they would be the last Whaler I would ever want. Boy, was I wrong. The fact is I owned both of those boat relatively short lengths of time.

posted 01-21-2004 12:11 PM ET (US)            

I don't mean to suggest that I am the typical Whaler owner (whatever that is and however you would define one), or even the typical boater, but I derive huge enjoyment from working on my Whalers, adding things, changing things, customizing them to my desires at that particular time, and spending huge time doing it. I have more than matched the purchase price of my Outrage 22 (both new price in 1992 and price to me in 1999, either one) with the additions I have brought to it, and would do it again in a heartbeat.

posted 01-21-2004 12:17 PM ET (US)            

I ain't complaining! My little Whaler and this wonderful site have opened up a new world for me--small craft motorboating--which frankly I scorned when I was exclusively into sailing. If there's a used Outrage in my future at the right time, right place, and right price, so be it. If not, well, the storms have finally abated somewhat here in northern California; I've gotten out twice in the past two weeks; my sweet old girl has forgiven me my roving eyes; Spring's on the way; and there are many more wonderful days on the water awaiting all of us.