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Author Topic:   LOWRANCE Offers NMEA-2000 Instrumentation
jimh posted 03-28-2005 09:25 AM ET (US)   Profile for jimh   Send Email to jimh  
LOWRANCE appears to have joined the move to NMEA-2000 digital networked instrumentation with their 2005 line of products.

New products include a series of NMEA-2000 network Electronic Probes:

EP10- for fuel flow information
EP-15 for fuel level information
EP-20 for interface to engine functions
EP-25 for temperature and speed data
EP-30 for trim tab level information

These sensors will read digital or analog data and make it available on the NMEA-2000 boat network for display on a new range of multi-function gauges (LMF) or on the screen of NMEA-2000 capable displays.

At the moment, I could not find any mention of these products actually for sale or what their price might be, so they may not be immediately available.

Electronic Probes

http://www.lowrance.com.au/docs/Lowrance%20Soundings%2021-2-05.pdf

General Information on NMEA-2000 Lowrance Products
http://www.lowrance.com/Manuals/Files/NMEA2000_General_%20Information-0154-171-031804.pdf

jimh posted 03-28-2005 09:35 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
This NMEA-2000 networking concept is not just for big-ticket items. Here is a LOWRANCE SONAR with NMEA-2000 compatibility for under $150:

http://www.tigergps.com/lox52sofiwit.html

WT posted 03-28-2005 12:59 PM ET (US)     Profile for WT  Send Email to WT     
I may have the opportunity to upgrade my Lowrance LCX19C to a newer model which uses NMEA 2000. Is there a great benefit of having the NMEA 2000 capabilities for a Montauk 170 with a 90-HP four-stroke?

I guess it would be nice to have fuel flow and fuel level information on my GPS/Sonar unit.

Thanks,
Warren

jimh posted 03-28-2005 04:59 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
The Mercury outboard motor (that I assume is on your transom) is not, as far as I know, certified as NMEA-2000 compliant.But you could get the fuel flow sensor and tank level sensor, again just making an assumption. I think the actual implementation of this by LOWRANCE may be a few months away. I could not find any data on the Electronic Probe devices on their U.S. website.
bigjohn1 posted 03-29-2005 07:25 AM ET (US)     Profile for bigjohn1  Send Email to bigjohn1     
WT, I have been wondering the same thing on the fuel flow measurement with the 170. Since I installed a NAVMAN 6600 on my boat, all I have to do is add the fuel flow sensor. I am still sitting on the fence with regard to that decision though. For right now, I just reset my trip meter on the unit before each outing and I know about when its time to change tanks (by mileage). This is without having to rely on that in-tank fuel gauge that is prone to reading anywhere from empty to full when it gets low and you are pitching and rolling in big water. The two main stumbling blocks I am up against are:

1. How to run the fuel flow sensor cable from the gas tank under the rps to the dash-mounted plotter unit - no rigging tunnel there. So, I'd have a cable running right across the floor behind the helm and running into the front lower hole in the console (where the cup holder drain tubes exit the console).

2. This is arguably overkill on a 170 with its small portable tanks - and I still believe it is even if you upgrade to 13 gallon Tempo's.

The guys who went the extra mile and installed the 24 or 27 gallon Pate on their 170's would probably benifit most with that large single tank though.

jimh posted 03-29-2005 07:39 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
The NAVMAN instruments are not NMEA-2000 compliant.

The NMEA-2000 standard does not specify how to run cables on a Boston Whaler Montauk 170, although it does specify some of the physical characteristics of the cable.

It is unlikely a fuel level indicator could be adapted to a small 6-gallon plastic tank. Generally the fuel level in a small 6-gallon plastic tank is fairly easy to gauge by eye. There is more applicability for fuel level sensors with larger tanks which are internal to the boat's hull.

daverdla posted 03-29-2005 08:22 AM ET (US)     Profile for daverdla  Send Email to daverdla     
I interconnected my garmin GPSMAP 176C (NMEA 0183) with my Standard DSC equipped VHF on my montauk. If I ever activate the distress signal it will transmit my position. Since we've been searching for a larger boat to use as a weekender, I've started to look into networked systems and NMEA standards. With the NMEA standards being adapted by the electonics manufacturers in mind, I've been hoping to find a boat with outdated electronics. We think we've found our girl and have made an offer. As far as the electronics go, it's ideal. Most of the radios and the radar are 1970's vintage - worthless. Much better to get a boat with electronics that the owner ackknowledges are junk than one with very expensive 10 year old stuff that I really don't want but for which the owner paid a king's ransome. Although I plan to put in a networked system, I may still install discreet components as backups. It's amazing how inexpensive radios, GPS, radar, sounders, etc. have become.

Dave

jimh posted 03-29-2005 01:40 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
The NMEA-0183 standard is for serial data connections, while the NMEA-2000 standard is for a digital data network. For simiple interconnections between two devices, the NMEA-0183 standard has been very useful, but, as the electronics and instrumentation on vessels becomes more complex, a network or bus type connection makes more sense.

NMEA-0183 interconnections can become quite complicated when you attempt to interconnect several devices, and often one has to resort to using buffer amplifiers or other external devices to get all the units connected and communicating.

Even in a simple open power boat like a Boston Whaler, the electronic interconnection can be difficult for the average boater to implement successfully. For example consider this set up:

GPS Receiver ------position data------> DSC Radio

GPS Receiver ------speed data------> Fuel Economy Computer

DSC Radio ------received position data-----> Chart Plotter

To make all of these interconnections using the current technology and NMEA-0183 serial data requires the boat owner to wire all of these devices together. The all use different connections, with different pin assignments. In some cases the devices have to be specially configured to adjust to the proper serial data speed, and to transmit the proper information on the output. While this is not impossible to accomplish if you are knowledgeable about electronic hardware, serial data communication protocols, and are able to solder your connectors and fashion your own interconnection point, I think it is fair to say that the task is beyond most boat owners.

With the NMEA-2000 standard, all devices are connected to a single data bus using a standardized connector and wiring arrangement.

Imagine where the home computer would be if everyone had to configure and wire up their own display, keyboard, and mouse connections to input output connections that changed with each brand and manufacturer.

daverdla posted 03-29-2005 10:18 PM ET (US)     Profile for daverdla  Send Email to daverdla     
One huge advantage is I can have a single radar, GPS, etc. serving two monitors, one at each helm station. I would still go for independant GPS and sounder at the lower station.

The bad news is I don't think Garmin is using the standard for their new products. Hard to believe but they claim to be using an ethernet based proprietary network. That's a big disappointment.

Dave

happypappy posted 03-29-2005 10:58 PM ET (US)     Profile for happypappy  Send Email to happypappy     
Just an FYI.
Raymarine already has produced NMEA 2000 comaptible units in both the 70 and 80 series units with more on the way.
Volvo Penta has been using both the 0183 and 1937 technology for quite some time in their diesels and now gasoline products. During the middle part of this year they will be going full NMEA 2000 on their EVC-EC controlled diesel product.
jimh posted 03-31-2005 02:01 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
I like the idea of industry standards, but I do wonder why the NMEA likes to keep the cost of obtaining them so darn high. If you were curious about the standard and wanted to learn more, you have to spend a bundle--$3,000 or so--to get an actual copy of it.

I wonder if the high price is to keep people out of the marine electronics business? Once an industry organization has decided on a standard, it seems a little much to charge thousands of dollars for a CD-ROM copy of it.

Other marine industry organizations charge for copies of their standards, but I don't think the price is anywhere near that demanded by the NMEA. ABYC and NMMA sell their stuff at more reasonable prices, I believe.

LHG posted 03-31-2005 07:00 PM ET (US)     Profile for LHG    
What about Mercury's integrated engine management system, called "Smartcraft", and Smartcraft DTS? Is it NMEA 2000 or proprietary? It has been around for about 4 years now, and is in all Mercury EFI 4-strokes (except those with Yamaha powerheads), Optimax, Verado and traditional EFI engines. Currently, nobody else has anything that even comes close, although the rush is on to catch up.
jimh posted 03-31-2005 08:39 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
I guess Mercury couldn't wait for the standard to be finalized. They are on the market with their proprietary system, although I think the underlying layer of their SmartCraft instrumentation is the same as NMEA-2000. They both use CANbus technology. There is so much hardware available for CANbus they'd be crazy not to use it.

It's just that the NMEA-2000 protocol is a standard and everybody's equipment can plug into the bus and interoperate. The Mercury SmartCraft is not an open standard, although they have shared it with people like Faria and Navman so they can make products for it.

The funny thing is that sometimes the protocol that gets out there first becomes the standard. This actually is the case with the whole internet. The TCP/IP protocol was developed and put in use. Later, there was a more complicated and formal "standard" proposed, the ISO-Seven-Layer model. The TCP/IP protocol did not conform, but it was so entrenched that it became the standard. (I think the NMEA-2000 protocol follows the seven-layer model.)

However, I don't think that is going to happen with SmartCraft. Mercury is guaranteed to have devices to connect to it because they bought companies like Navman and Northstar. So they don't need to worry. But I don't think anyone else will change to SmartCraft because of competitive reasons. Everyone else will go with the NMEA-2000 standard.

The converse is more interesting: will Navman and Northstar make instruments and electronics that are NMEA-2000 compatible?

And then the obverse: will Mercury switch to NMEA-2000 at some point?

jimh posted 03-31-2005 08:54 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Mercury was first with the digital instrumentation network, but Evinrude is in the hunt now with their I-Command Digital Gauges, and they are NMEA-2000 compliant.

See: http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/009536.html

People keep talking about Honda, but they haven't shown us any yet. Yamaha? Not even rumors about them.

rtk posted 03-31-2005 10:07 PM ET (US)     Profile for rtk  Send Email to rtk     
This is from my NAVMAN Trackfish 6600, regarding the various "connections" to other units.

NMEA 0183 ver 2 4800 baud, with other input/output information via NMEA

Then there is a NavBus, which is desribed as "Connection to other Navman instruments". There are two wires in the main Power/data cable, which are labled NavBus+ and NavBus-

To display Smartcraft data, the NAVMAN Smartcraft Gateway is needed. The Gateway is basically a wiring harness with an electronics box in the middle that will connect the Smartcraft harness from the engine and the connector on the unit in place of the fuel sensor. The "box" must convert the engine codes to something the unit can read and display.

There is also a four plug junction box and a connector needed (Mercury parts) to feed both the Smartcraft SC1000 multi gauge and the NAVMAN unit, at least with my application and equipment.

Best to talk to a Mercury dealer and NAVMAN about your setup. Especially if you are rigging it for twins, a different Gateway is needed. The fact that a certain harness has "x" kind of resistors was apparently important too.

I had to touch base with NAVMAN and my Mercury dealer to put the parts list together. The Gateway was tough to find, two electronics dealers had no idea what I was talking about, they did not even have the info in their computer.

Funny, the both the Smartcraft harness and the NAVMAN Gateway have identical female ends that need to connect. In order to plug the Gateway into the harness, a harness with two male ends needs to be purchased (Mercury part)to connect the two female ends together. That had me scratching my head a bit, good thing for wiring diagrams and instruction manuals.

Rich


LHG posted 04-01-2005 01:20 PM ET (US)     Profile for LHG    
Thanks Jim for the Smartcraft detail. Since I am a Lowrance person, I was wondering if I can plug Smartcraft information from a 175 Verado into a new Lowrance unit. My guess is that Lowrance wouldn't exclude such a large possible segment of their market (remembering that Smartcraft is also integrated into their dominant Mercury I/O and inboard line) by not being compatible with Smartcraft one way or another. Nor would Lowrance want to concede that large market to Navman.
rtk posted 04-01-2005 09:05 PM ET (US)     Profile for rtk  Send Email to rtk     
It would be nice if all of the engine data from any manufacturer could be displayed on any unit of your choosing.

I really do not understand the technology, but isn't the data, any data really, just stored or generated as a bunch of zeros and ones?

I would think the electronics manufacturers would embrace a situation where the engine data from all manufacturers was available in a standard code format. A standard harness that plugs into the motor and plugs into the unit. The connector is the same for all units, engine and electronics.

I think the restrictions of available engine data formats are imposed by the engine manufacturers, not the electronics producers.

The Lowrance could read the Smartcraft data if the unit was designed with port that can plug into a Smartcraft Gateway. The Smartcraft Gateway would be a Lowrance Gateway, a different model than the NAVMAN gateway. Would Brunswick offer that option? Or do they want to make the NAVMAN electronics units the only ones that can display the data? It can happen if Mercury and Lowrance sit down and make it happen.

It's only data transfer. The data has to be supplied in a format the unit can read and display. Everybody just needs to agree on a format, or allow a conversion of data.

Like the Microsoft and Linux(?) operating system debate. Linux is open code and Microsoft won't share? (something like that I remember reading, by all means correct me)

Rich

jimh posted 04-02-2005 11:33 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Rich--you have asked a good question, or implied it, at least

Will instruments which adhere to the NMEA-2000 standard be able to inter-operate with other brands of senders?

For example, if I have a NMEA-2000 tachometer made by Honda, will it properly read the engine speed of a Yamaha motor which is advertised as being NMEA-2000 compliant?

According to an overview of the NMEA-2000 specification published on their website, the Application Layer of the protocol "includes provisions for manufacturer's proprietary messages."

The listing of APPLICATION PARAMETER GROUP messages includes:

Engine Parameters, Dynamic
Engine Parameters, Rapid Update
Engine Parameters, Static

If NMEA-2000 is going to be a hit, there should be inter-operability in the specification. If you have to buy brand specific devices, e.g., Honda gauges for Honda motors and Evinrude gauges for Evinrude motors, then there does not seem to be any special appeal to the standard, other than a vast improvement in vessel wiring requirements.

daverdla posted 04-02-2005 10:00 PM ET (US)     Profile for daverdla  Send Email to daverdla     
Check out the manufacturer's codes from the NMEA website for the 2000 standard. Maybe the listing is out of date but some big players like Honda and Garmin are not listed.
http://www.nmea.org/pub/2000/NMEA2000MFGCodes.pdf
Dave
phatwhaler posted 07-03-2005 12:16 AM ET (US)     Profile for phatwhaler  Send Email to phatwhaler     
Here's a page I stubled across that shows some nice integration of E-tec and Lowrance.

[urlhttp://www.teamgotsalt.com/TheBoat.htm[/url]

I want a 2.6L 200 E-tec real bad.

phatwhaler out.

phatwhaler posted 07-03-2005 12:17 AM ET (US)     Profile for phatwhaler  Send Email to phatwhaler     
whoops

http://www.teamgotsalt.com/TheBoat.htm

jmorgan40 posted 07-03-2005 08:25 AM ET (US)     Profile for jmorgan40  Send Email to jmorgan40     
Jim,
You mentioned price. Boaters World has a special 2005 Lowrance products catalog available in their store. It has the prices of all the new NMEA-2000 Lowrance products although I doubt they are all available yet. I just bought their new LCX-26C HD for my new OR 20. I needed to find somehing that would fit in the electronics box of the new T-Top you won't let me talk about. The 26 C has all charts for the entire country and every lake already loaded and available with no unlock codes/.

The prices look very good. The 2 KW 16 mile radar unit is $999 and the 24NM radar is $100 more, although they are not available yet. The multifunction LMF-400 guage is $199. It fits a standard 3-3/8 opening. The smaller 2-1/8 LMF-200 guage is $149.

The sensors for Fuel Level, Fuel Flow, Speed, Temp, are $49 each.

Hope this helps and I can not wait to post pics of the new T-Top. Those guys at National Towers do exceptional work. It looks great. I got the top on yesterday and now I am working on rigging everything.

By the way, I got $10,100 for the Montauk. Not bad since I bought it for $5,500, Put about $3,500 in it. Ised it for 3 years and made $1,600 profit.
Take Care
Joe

BarryGreen posted 07-05-2005 08:12 AM ET (US)     Profile for BarryGreen  Send Email to BarryGreen     
One of the most annoying things about my 235 Conquest is that Lenco tim tabs are standard (great idea) but BW doesn't supply the "indicator version". As a result you never know where your tabs are set unless you run them all the way up, and then time your switch activations down. I understand the concept of just trimming for desired boat behavior, but I still think it's a weak approach and can leave you at the end of tab travel at times.

Long story short, my choices right now are to wait for the trim tab sensor to be available from Lowrance and display tab position on my LXC-110 GPS/DS (not a logical place for that parameter, IMHO), or pay another $300 and replace the plain-jane Lenco controls BW supplied for the indicator version. The logical place for tab position indication would seem to be on the SmartCraft display.

Is anyone aware of a way to tie the Lenco tab position feedback into the SmartCraft system?

Barry

jmorgan40 posted 07-05-2005 09:16 AM ET (US)     Profile for jmorgan40  Send Email to jmorgan40     
Barry,
Eastern Marine sells the indicator model for $189.00. It just plugs into the same harness. I have bought from them several times they are great. Here is a link to one they are selling on eBay or you can just call them.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4559268504&category=31283

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