posted 07-22-2005 09:08 AM ET (US)        

When I got there it was very clear to see where the gasket had let go. Thanks to this the cylinder had overheated and the rings where reduced to shavings which in turn scuffed the piston pretty bad. Dave quoted me $2500 - $3500 for a complete rebuild of the powerhead, carbs, water pump, new coil packs, etc., etc. Well I do not have that kind of money just laying around so, my first though was, well I should be able to sell the boat as is for what I owe. But then I quickly realized what a waste that would be. So Dave and I talked and I came to the decision that I would that the boat home and put a plan together of what to do with the motor. Seeing the work I have ready done to the boat and through talking he felt I could rebuild on my own. He said so long as I bought OEM parts through him he would answer any questions and give any help he could. Which I feel is very fair.

So I took the boat home and parked it in the drive way. I spent the evening (which was my wife and I's 4 anniversary) thinking of how I was going to tackle this problem. The plan right now is to tear it all down myself and have Dave at Lockemans rebuild my motor to a complete short block while I do the rest. The bummer is the boat will be out of service till next year. Sure I could have it done sooner but I have my commitments to many major jobs on our house and I have to honor that.

I actually am looking forward to the rebuild just for my knowledge however I just wish it could have waited another couple years. I have only been able to use the boat 4 times since I finished the rebuild of the deck. Oh well, it is just the joy of owning an old boat.

posted 07-22-2005 09:46 AM ET (US)            

Great idea to document the entire project.

posted 07-22-2005 09:48 AM ET (US)            

The ring failure was precipitated by water getting into the cylinder and washing down the lubricating oil. The water intrusion was due to a failed head gasket. Dave speculated that the failed head gasket might have been caused by some previous over heating of the engine, sometime during its 20-years of otherwise reliable and uneventful use.

He mentioned that when an engine has been over heated, it is a good practice to follow up later with a check of all the head bolts for proper tightness and torque. After Dave mentioned this, I re-read my owners manual. In the section titled ENGINE OVERHEATING, it says:

"Have your DEALER torque the cylinder head screws after an engine overheat."

There was also some external visible evidence on the engine block of some water leaking from the point of failure of the head gasket. Speaking with the benefit of 20-20 hindsight, it might have been possible to see this problem during a close visual inspection of the power head. There is no guarantee that the head gasket would always leak externally as well as internally, so it could have been admitting water to the cylinder and not leaking at all to the outside.

You can compare this situation with that of LHG. He recently had the head gaskets replaced on his engines as a preventative measure. As it turned out, the originals were apparently in fine shape, but on advice of his mechanic (I believe) he spent about $200 per motor to get the heads pulled and re-gasketed. This also gives you a chance to look at the cylinder walls and pistons. In LHG's case the motors are about eight years old, but they do have significant saltwater use, and this was considered to be a potential problem with these particular head gaskets.

Other than the one scored cylinder, Jeff's 20-year-old two-stroke looked to be in good condition.

It is a shame that the beautifully restored hull will be out of commission for a while. By the way, Jeff, the boat looked great!

posted 07-22-2005 09:57 AM ET (US)            

Sorry to hear about the problems with the motor. Tough place to be when you've just spent all of that time working on the deck. I don't see where selling the boat would be an option either. You've got too much time and effort invested into some great work.

From what I've heard here Lockemans is a good reputable dealer and mechanic. Stick with them. The information and insight they can give while you do the rebuild is invaluable. Also, as an aside, the pricing they quoted for the rebuild is right in there with what I paid Nortwestern to do the rebuild on the 150.

I keep my 18 on it's trailer in town here so if you ever have the need to just get out on the water let me know.

Paul

posted 07-22-2005 10:08 AM ET (US)            

Just a thought.

posted 07-22-2005 11:14 AM ET (US)            

Wow...sorry to hear about that, but it does sound like a great project, and judging by how you did no the last one, I expect it to be done very well by you and your dad.

Peter -

I like how you think....

posted 07-22-2005 11:56 AM ET (US)            

Sorry to hear about the power plant breakdown. I own the same boat, 22 Outrage till 86.
When I was a kid I have rebuilt Triumph and BSA motorcycles engines.
Be meticulous, get at least a torque wrench and a service manual. I am confident you can fix it.

posted 07-22-2005 12:57 PM ET (US)            

Come on over and go to Charlevoix with all of us!!!

I am sure with having so many boats you will be able to get on one of them--

I know there will be a Newport!

Now you know why I could not entertain the Newtauk--damn houses--should sale them and live on boats -- no lawn-painting--property taxes --- OH ya -- I guess winters would tend to be a challenge.

posted 07-22-2005 04:06 PM ET (US)            

Paul - Thanks for the offer. I would love a ride on an 18 outrage. I have never riden on one.

Peter - I will let you know.

posted 07-22-2005 05:51 PM ET (US)         

I would just buy a good used engine for the boat for $2500 or so. There are plenty out there as many guys now want to get rid of their 2-strokes. Check out screamandfly.com. Although many of the engines advertized there are 20", some 25" engines do appear on a regular basis.

I think fixing up that old Evinrude is wasting good money.
When it's fixed, you'll still have an engine that looks old, and that's worth nothing on a trade in, with the old VRO system. Unlike old Merc in-line 6's, there is not much interest in an old 235.

There is a lesson here in buying used Boston Whalers that need a lot of restoration. The engine probably wasn't taken care of either. I've seen a lot of these. Some Boston Whaler owners just drive them 'til they drop. When one buys a boat like this, you must also have the funds to cover the cost of engine replacement, sooner rather than later. Otherwise you can't really afford that particular purchase, or, if nothing else, it is not such a great deal as it first appeared.

Head gaskets? Mine were absolutely perfect when replaced, but at $300/engine, this is the best insurance you can buy according to my saltwater Merc mechanics. If your any brand V-6 is 10 years old, and used in salt water, JUST DO IT and you won't have problems like Jeff has encountered. It's a simple job.

As Jim has said, a simple inspection of the gaskets from the outside can be revealing. If there is any sign of leakage and salt/water deposit buildup externally, REPLACE THEM.

posted 07-23-2005 09:55 AM ET (US)            

Sorry to hear about the problems with your motor, especially after your impressive restoration job on the deck.

I have to agree with Larry about dumping money into this old motor. I think you have to thoroughly research your options of buying a used motor or rebuilding.

Good luck in your decision.

posted 07-23-2005 11:20 AM ET (US)            

Got it home and started filling holes/cracks in the hull, made plugs to fill openings in console - refinished the console mounted new electronics, painting the inside, outside, refinishing the wood.

Put the boat in water and the engine would stall when put in gear. The basic problem of the motor is the same as you listed. I Looked at same types of options. Decided on cutting losses and not having a real old motor - but buying a 70 hp Yamaha (slightly used - checked out by a Yamaha dealer).

I plant to get back to working on that boat this weekend. Just remember eventhough you replace/rebuild the head - everything else on it is still old and getting back to shore is the most important part to the wife and family.

Keep us posted.

posted 07-23-2005 01:15 PM ET (US)            

So I sucked it up and got a loan at my credit union and plunked down a then astronomical $4300 for a new 90 hp Yamaha installed. I'd never even owned a car that cost that much and this was just an outboard. It was the best move I could have made, all things considered.

I think you get about 95% of your reliability with the power system. With a little care and scheduled maintenance it is still in operation and dependable, though we don't stray as far from port was we used to.

posted 07-25-2005 08:59 AM ET (US)            

I, like you, thought I would rebuild my engine myself. I tore it down and bagged and tagged everything, then I started pricing out all the new parts and came to realize a couple of things.

1. The job was beyond me as my abilities as a mechanic really aren't that great.
2. The cost of all the new parts and machining got almost as high as a new/used outboard.

I ended up buying the same model, year, horsepower engine as the one that I had.
It's worked out great as I have all the spare parts I need and the engine has ran so far.

Good luck with whatever you choose to do.

posted 07-25-2005 06:07 PM ET (US)            

Gep,
Long time no hear....take care of that Outrage 18....you know I have eyes for her..hahahahaha....are we going to see you at any of the events this summer ? Hope all is well

posted 08-02-2005 06:40 PM ET (US)            

I know some look at this as good money wasted but, it is my money to waste. I would hate buy a used outboard and be back to square 1 in a couple years.

Larry I appreciate your comments however I must say a couple things.

LGH:

"I think fixing up that old Evinrude is wasting good money.
When it's fixed, you'll still have an engine that looks old, and that's worth nothing on a trade in, with the old VRO system. Unlike old Merc in-line 6's, there is not much interest in an old 235."

Say you lost the tranny in one of your old Cadillacs. Are you telling me because if its late 70's early 80's vintage (not the most desired years), its looks, outdate technology, and low trade in value, the car is not worth spending the money to fix it? I would think you would put your money into not only rebuilding that transmission but making it better than new. Which I have a lot of respect for. It is not that I am in love with the motor but, I do like the look of the vintage motor on the transom.

LGH:
"There is a lesson here in buying used Boston Whalers that need a lot of restoration. The engine probably wasn't taken care of either. I've seen a lot of these. Some Boston Whaler owners just drive them 'til they drop. When one buys a boat like this, you must also have the funds to cover the cost of engine replacement, sooner rather than later. Otherwise you can't really afford that particular purchase, or, if nothing else, it is not such a great deal as it first appeared."

Honestly Larry my boat did not need any restoration right away. My boat was cared for and not driven till it dropped. I bought it from an elderly man who was its original owner and never taken the boat out of the Great Lakes. He did not seem the type to neglect things. His other boat was a beautiful 41 Tiara. He was a lawyer however (just kidding Tony). Ask John Flook, Peter Dunster, Don McIntyer, Dave Buckalew, and even Jimh. The boat they saw in person was visibly unchanged from when I bought the boat. except for the teak being oiled and some polishing. All of the work done to the boat you can not see unless you start pulling things apart. My floor felt no where near as bad as Dave's floor in his 18. And not all but many others who have emailed me about pulling their floor have stated finding rot as well. Other than having the bottom paint the hull is in great condition. No nicks, scrapes, scratches that have been filled. There is a spot in the rear starboard corner that a stay bolt on the dock caught. This was filled and resprayed by the dealer. I have all for the OEM lights and they are in great condition. The teak in the boat was in very good condition I just sanded and reoiled. All the bright work is shinny, intact, and not pitted. The OEM rub rail is still on the boat and in good condition. The boat had no electronics on board when I bought it. So there was no crappy installs done turning the console into swiss cheese. I have 99% of the original parts and pieces to the boat that are in good condition. etc. etc. I fell it was a boat many people would love to find. I did the restoration to the boat because I have high standards and I wanted my boat to met those standards. It would have be more than acceptable to many others. I put this effort into my boat because I plan on keeping it for a long time and I care about my boat.

The motor was my fault not the previous owners. Dave at Lockemans even stated it was a great strong motor and would still have many years of service if I had taken care of this earlier. Which I should have taken care of this before the burn ring cracked and the gasket burned out. I feel like hell for this. Oh Well I was going to rebuild the motor anyway in a couple years. No time like the present now.

Do not get me wrong though I have not seen you boats in person I think are the highest standard to shoot for. Absolutely Perfect in ever respect. I truly admire the time and effort you have put into maintaining and rebuilding these boats into true CLASSICS. I hope I will get a chance in the future to see them in person and spend some time talking about them with you.

I am not trying to offend you or start something Larry. I just feel I had to voice my opinions as well. In the end neither of us is right or wrong. We are just people who do things differently but share and interest in old whalers.

Anywho Here are picture for you guys to see. The bad cylinder is #3 (starboard middle)
http://photobucket.com/albums/v427/jeff_rohlfing/Motor/

posted 08-02-2005 08:38 PM ET (US)            

I think people approach problems and solutions to those problems based on their own skill set. Some people have never held wrench in their hands, and perhaps re-building a motor is sounds like trying to do brain surgery. On the other hand, spending the winter re-building a motor might be another person's idea of a great project for the off season.

Motors in situations like yours get re-built all the time. Some boat racers rebuild motors more or less perpetually, until they run out of cylinder wall to overbore.

posted 08-03-2005 12:15 AM ET (US)            

Glad you are going with the rebuild. I like the idea of keeping the boat original for a little while longer. We keep getting fewer boats in their original set up and personally I like seeing them.

Like Jim's analogy I guess I'd compare it to going to the Dream Cruise here in Detroit. I like the old cars in their original condition and much of the work that's done to restore them. Some people like the new cars, muscle cars, trucks or whatever.

I think It's very rare to find a boat in great condition in all aspects. Even the ones that are maintained. Accidents, water intrusions that no one suspects, hidden engine wear, etc. With the older boats I think its pretty hard to anticipate or address every problem while in the middle of some of the other projects. Gets to be a real juggling act. I can appreciate how you feel about letting things go and having it end up as an additional expense. I felt pretty stupid when I found out that my motor needed replacing, rebuilding or running the risk of a major failure. All of a sudden the boat wasn't quite the deal I thought it was, my vision of how things were supposed to go got a little tarnished and what I should have done bothered me for weeks, Turned out to be a little bit of a setback in what I wanted to accomplish with the boat but it's back on track and I'm enjoying figuring out the hows and whys of going about the work on the boat.

I think with your standards that the rebuild will be well done and actually be a source of pleasure and pride. Something that can certainly serve as an example to some of what can be done to retain their motors if so inclined. Good luck with the rebuild and keep us posted.

Paul

posted 08-03-2005 01:32 AM ET (US)            

Best of luck on the engine rebuild. Given the trend in this thread, I have decide to never declare the restoration of Evenstar done. I can't afford a new or used outboard at this point.

posted 08-04-2005 12:58 PM ET (US)            

If you can get off/out, Gail and I are heading up to the Hessel area from this Sunday to Thursday. Interested?

posted 08-04-2005 01:17 PM ET (US)            

I have things going on during every whaler event this summer. I am really hoping to make the inland water way cruise this fall. If not I was going to see if anyone else was interested in headed to Grand Haven this Labor Day. Buckda (Dave), Newport_Whaler (Tom), and I met up and had a great time on this past Memorial Day.

Cheers,
Jeff

posted 05-18-2006 08:09 PM ET (US)            

Well today I dropped the old boat off to get the powerhead reinstalled. I really wanted to do the reinstall but, with work taking up 80+ hours a week it was just not realistic. My father and I stripped it down back in Sept. and over the winter Ben at Lockemans rebuilt it. I did get off lucky. The damage was no were near first thought after breaking it open. So with the honing of the cylinders, all new pistons, bearings, seals, thermos, rebuilt carbs, and water pump the motor will be back in full service come Saturday.

So after 18 months of working and only 4 boat rides in that time it will be nice to have the boat back in like new condition. Well, the bottom pain(t) is the only thing left to take care of.