posted 02-02-2006 01:08 AM ET (US)        

Attendees at the Miami Boat Show are going to see some, most, or all of the following:

MERCURY:

--the announcement of the end of the OptiMax! This tarnished brand has cost Mercury millions in warranty coverage. It is heading into the sunset. Eliminating two-stroke engines will clarify Mercury's message, too.

--the introduction of new four-stroke outboards in 75, 90, and 115-HP, which will not be called VERADO models, but WILL HAVE DIGITAL THROTTLE AND SHIFT CONTROLS! Mercury is going to move to DTS controls across their outboard line. The "game-changing"--George Buckley's favorite phrase--DTS technology they pioneered two years ago on the VERADO will be featured on these new four-stroke motors. This will be another good move because it will again cut out any third party suppliers. You will have to get OEM shift and throttle controls and cables for your Mercury, no choices allowed. Mercury gets more of the boat deal dollar. And, along with SmartCraft, DTS will give the new four-stroke motors a significant set of features which will differentiate them from the many competing four-strokes already on the market.

--these new motors will also introduce a new product brand name to replace the generic "Four-stroke" badge they are now using on their non-Verado four-stroke motors. The name will probably be about six letters long, it will not be a recognized word in English, Spanish, or other major languages, it will have some sort of appealing sense or sound to it, it will not be already associated with another product, and it will be eligible for registration as an internet domain name. An example is "verado" itself, which fit these requirements exactly. Thus, expect something like "serato." Look for the new brand name to be along those lines. Sorry, no leaks here. This new name will be hush-hush right until they pull the covers off the new motors.

--on the new motors with the new DTS and the new brand name, there will be new cowlings which will be re-styled from their current totally drab, all black, generic look-alike presentation into something much more stylish. The new brand name will be very prominent on the cowlings. You won't have to lean around the motor and peer carefully at the small print on the front to discover what model it is (like you currently have to do with Mercury motors to see if they are OptiMax or Four-Stroke). The cowlings will probably remain primarily black but have more metallic gray elements and fancier medallions, much like the Verado.

--a new television and multi-media advertising campaign based on the theme THE FUTURE OF BOATING, somewhat akin to the fantastically successful Evinrude Infomercial that has been showing non-stop for a year on broadcast and cable television. The campaign will stress the special integration of boat, engine, and accessories made possible by the vertical integration of Brunswick, and it will be chocked full of brand names--there is no shortage of those at Brunswick.

--the campaign will be targeted especially to non-boaters, particularly people in the JONESES GENERATION. The Joneses are adults between the Baby Boomers and the Gen-X'ers, or adults ages 38-49. There is a very significant number of people in this age group--about one-fourth of all adults in America--who have been growing up in the shadow of the baby boomers and are now poised to establish themselves. They have discretionary income and are ready now to spend it for their own pleasure and entertainment. Brunswick needs to get the JONESES into boating and to sell them a Brunswick Boat Group boat with a Mercury Marine motor with Mercury Marine Financing.

If Mercury does not do ALL of this, they will have missed the boat, or they need to hire better marketing consultants (I am available). However, I think you will see probably all of this just as I have described above.

--also, higher horsepower Verado motors--finally. This will be important for the bigger offshore market, where the cost (and weight) of triple engines was getting to be an obstacle. Boats with twin 300-HP Verado engines will be on display.

EVINRUDE:

--more E-TEC motors, this time in lower horsepower ranges, filling in their outboard motor line below 40-HP with new models of the E-TEC. These new E-TEC motors will bring the special attributes of the E-TEC to the smaller horsepower market. This will be a great match. The new motors will stress:

--lighter weight
--no need for battery to run or start
--self-winterization
--long periods of no required maintenance.

There will be several models, probably down to about 9.9-HP.

YAMAHA:

--will introduce products which emulate the features introduced by Mercury and Evinrude two or three years ago; check the Mercury 2003 catalogue for details.

SUZUKI:

--will introduce motors just like Yamaha's, except they will be less expensive, have longer warranty coverage, and have more exotic technology. They will be painted black, but they may start to change the cowling styling to emulate the curved line seen (first) on the E-TEC and now also on the Mercury cowlings.

HONDA:

--will introduce one new motor. As a company, Honda has been withdrawing from a number of markets where it has been making a complete product, and instead now prefers to just make an engine or powerhead. A good example of this is their willingness to sell engines to General Motors who put them into automobiles that compete with Honda automobiles. They have also dropped out of market segments like lawn mowers or generators, and instead would sell Honda engines to others who want to make and market lawn mowers and generators. They don't seem to be very aggressive in investing or supporting the marine engine market. They made fine products, but they always seem to be behind the curve when it comes to new features. They are also in a very uphill battle for market share, but premium pricing and very little off-price selling is important for their low volume dealers, so don't expect any price cuts or incentives.

Oh, almost forgot:

BOSTON WHALER:

--will show a very aggressively priced boat, motor, trailer, electronics package that can be sold for under $20,000 [$30,000] and bring new people to the Boston Whaler family. The boat will be designed specifically to complement the new 90-HP motor from Mercury as its base engine, with the 115-HP as the optional upgrade. It will be targeted at THE JONESES, families with children old enough to enjoy boating.

--will also be very delighted to show a couple current boats now available with a single Verado in the new 300-HP model. This will lower the price of the boat compared to powering it with twins, making the boat more affordable.

Finally,

HELP WANTED--I would like to get some pictures of all of this when it happens, but I won't be able to attend the show this year. If anyone is planning on going and knows their way around a digital camera and a laptop computer with a wireless internet connection, I would love to get some pictures emailed on opening day. I will turn these around and post them ASAP for all to see. Contact me via email if you can help.

posted 02-02-2006 02:23 AM ET (US)         

I assume that Whaler boat you mention would be a new 190 Montauk.

I am unable to determine whether the end of the recreational OptiMax, if true, would be good or bad for Evinrude. I'll bet against you in that the "XS" and racing Opti's will survive. Yamaha seems to be dumping HPDI also.

DTS down to 75 HP would be fabulous. Once you experience it, everything else pales. I think the pricing has to come down, however.

So what are these new DTS Darth Vader styled Baby Verados going to weigh? A pair sure would be nice on the 18 or 21 Outrage!

posted 02-02-2006 08:06 AM ET (US)            

-OptiMax is going nowhere. It will continue with no plans to drop it. They're virtually bulletproof right now and the bass crowd is buying them up.

-You'll see a "limited number" of dirty engines (2 stroke)produced this spring by Mercury. All credits were NOT used up as reported. You may not hear this at Miami though.

posted 02-02-2006 08:37 AM ET (US)            

Although the Yamaha HPDI offerings on the saltwater side of the market are dwindling, I don't see any evidence that Yamaha is planning on droping the HPDI V-Max series of motors. It's large V6 four-strokes don't come in 20 inch shaft lengths so it too would have no product to serve the small go-fast/bass boat market if it were to drop the HPDI 2-strokes. So if Mercury were to drop the OptiMax, that would be good for both Evinrude and Yamaha.

posted 02-02-2006 09:18 AM ET (US)            

--will show a very aggressively priced boat, motor, trailer, electronics package that can be sold for under $20,000 and bring new people to the Boston Whaler family. The boat will be designed specifically to complement the new 90-HP motor from Mercury as its base engine, with the 115-HP as the optional upgrade. It will be targeted at THE JONESES, families with children old enough to enjoy boating.
[/quote]

Sounds like the 170 Sport that's been missing since the new 170 hull debuted in 2002. I guess it is possible that Whaler could market it just a bit higher than the 150 Montauk with 60HP EFI, so that after discount a base version could be sold for $20,000.

posted 02-02-2006 11:34 AM ET (US)            

Hey now, that is something I didnt know. Ive always felt that I didnt really fit into the baby boomer category. But the birthdate range given for baby boomers always seems to include my year (1962). Fascinating. I am a joneser!

http://www.medialifemagazine.com/news2001/mar01/mar12/4_thurs/ news3thursday.html

posted 02-02-2006 08:08 PM ET (US)            

THE FUTURE OF BOATING was the topic of conversation today. I got a few comments:

--"it's going to be a big surprise; people will be impressed by what [Mercury] has done."

--"the dealers don't know about this; they're in the dark, too."

posted 02-02-2006 08:09 PM ET (US)            

I had a chance to play around with the DTS controls at the show (unfortunately not with running engines), and they seem to be very smooth and nicely made. If they do become the standard across the larger horsepower line, folks like me that like to have a remote controlled kicker will be out of luck. Since the price premium for DTS is currently about $1,000 (as reported on this forum), I think Mercury would be worried about a pricing disadvantage if they made it the standard as opposed to an option.

posted 02-02-2006 10:38 PM ET (US)            

http://home.earthlink.net/~bluewaterpirate/sitebuildercontent/ sitebuilderpictures/navman8120.jpg

Navman 8120 System

Description: Navman 8120 is the low-profile, low power "datahelm" every angler, cruiser and sailor is calling for, integrating GPS, sonar, fuel management and video functionality into a daylight viewable high resolution screen. Navman 8120, It's the sleek 12-inch navigation console that's designed for the modern boating experience.

Navman 8120 Features

Chart-Navman's 32 MB chart gets you started for global navigation, or install C-Map's NT MAX technology for detailed chart data, value-added port infoand land detail.
Sonar-The Navman 8120 is equipped with a powerful 1 kW (RMS) sounder that automatically adjusts the output power (1 kW or 600W) to match the wattage of the transducer. No black box required,just plug the transducer of choice directly into the 8120 and you're up and running.
Fuel Management-With the 8120, you have on-demand access to your engine's performance data as well as SmartCraft management for Mercury engines.
Video-For the first time, Navman brings video to your helm. Hook a security camera up for live deck monitoring, engine room surveillance or underwater views. Or even run a DVD player or camcorder into the 8120 for entertainment.
8120 Features & Benefits

posted 02-03-2006 12:29 AM ET (US)            

A 300 HP Verado doesn't surprise me at all. That's been hiding in the wings for some time, evidently. I wonder if it will need 91 octane gas.

I was wondering the same thing. If the Verado 275hp drops back to 250hp on lower octane fuel what will happen if you do the same on a Verado 300hp unit? Will it drop all the way back to 250hp? Or 275hp? 275hp wouldn't make any sense because that engine already needs 91+ octane to make 275hp. Maybe the will go with an even larger engine work around this, a bored 3.0 liter perhaps? I doubt Mercury would do a high octane only" engine, at least around here not all marinas carry high octane fuel. Imagine those SKA owners with huge 32 to 40 foot center consoles with twin 300hp Verados, they'd be out a whopping 100hp if they could not find 91+ octane fuel.

EVINRUDE:

A V8 E-TEC, that's what I'd like to see. I bet they could use that V8 block from the 80's. I know they were VERY problematic, but from what I have read this was mainly caused by the difficult task of trying to synchronize the 8 carburetors. Something that could easily be managed by today's injection systems. An engine like that could probably produce more than 300hp and would make an interesting alternative to the 300hp Yamaha and Verado.

WHALER:

Ok, I know I'm dreaming, but I would love to see a back to basics, pure fishing machine from Whaler, maybe based on the 27 foot hull. No forward sitting, smaller console, and a lot more space. A deeper V and lower gunwales would be great too.

posted 02-03-2006 10:48 AM ET (US)            

I also believe to get the "Joneses" in the boating market, you will see more thruster and joystick-type helm control.

posted 02-03-2006 11:51 AM ET (US)            

Could we see an emergency system like OnStar on our boats now? That would be cool.

A satel1ite linked system that would connect directly to an operator. Position and diagnostic information available to the operator, and instant voice contact with an operator.

Rich

posted 02-04-2006 10:07 AM ET (US)            

My fuel numbers between my OptiMax and Verado are so close (I'm talking 0.2-MPG) that it's not even worth talking about. A lot of folks around here stay with the DFI technology when re-powering. I'm seeing more and more OptiMax motors on boats than ever before, especiallly the bigger blocks 200 to 250-HP. The OptiMax with Digital Throttle and Shift (DTS) is terrific. I fish with a friend that re-powered his Yellowfin with that package. He chose Mercury over Suzuki and Honda power because he liked the DTS so much.

posted 02-04-2006 10:28 AM ET (US)            

Fly-by-wire throttle and shift controls make so much sense, especially for the throttle. In most modern engines the throttle control is mechanically linked to the throttle position sensor (TPS), which is just an electrical potentiometer. Many newer engines only have a single throttle plate, as well. Gone are the days where you had six carburetors to link to your throttle cable. It should not take much force to control the small movement required to actuate a TPS and single throttle plate. However, there is also the shift mechanism, and this still requires an electro-mechanical actuator with enough power to operate the shift lever going down to the gear case.

Also, because of the extreme importance of these control, there has to be redundancy and fail-safe operation. That adds to the complexity and expense. Boat builders would love more Mercury motors to have DTS--it makes rigging much easier. But in the 75 to 115-HP range, price is a big factor in selling.

The 75, 90, and 115-HP outboard market is very crowded and very competitive, especially on price. The buyer of a 16-foot fishing boat may not have the resources to invest an extra $1,000 for DTS like someone who is getting a $200,000 offshore boat. Thus it may very well be that these new 75, 90, and 115-HP Mercury four-stroke motors will be introduced without DTS. If that is the situation, they will have to stand on their performance alone.

In that regard, I did have some correspondence this week with people who have driven the new Mercury four-stroke motors; they were very enthusiastic about how they run. The report I got is they won't need DTS to stand out from the crowd.

posted 02-04-2006 11:53 AM ET (US)            

1. Reliability
2. Fuel economy
3. Oil Consumption (DFI Market)
4. Weight
5. Expenses related to annual maintenace.

The biggest detractors between four-stroke and two-stroke in the eyes of the boaters around here are.

1. Gas use between them is the same for all practical purposes. And yes with oil injections systems there is the cost of oil.
2. Weight (especially in the re-power market) is a draw back.
3. The cost of the motors.

As for the 300-HP and above market (that is about to blossom) the one interesting thing will be lower unit design and reliability. That's the area that has been holding this technology off the market. The high torque generated by these motors will put a lot of stress on lower units. Only time will tell. Good discussion.

posted 02-04-2006 12:48 PM ET (US)            

Larry, you're living in the dreamland that I usually inhabit...maybe it's because we're both 'of a certain age' and can't really get our minds around what's happened to pricing over the past decade. A new 19 foot Boston Whaler with power, electronics, and a decent trailer for under twenty grand!? Oh sure, when Chinook salmon fly* ;-)

Well, as they say in the old country, from your mouth to Brunswick's ears. Much as I love my classic Outrage 18, she'll be on the auction block for sure if your dreams come true, and I'll be first in line for a Montauk 190.

I look forward to seeing how many of Jim's predictions come true. Sounds like the place to be this year is Miami, and I've only been to a couple of boat shows in my entire life...can't wait for the reports and photos.

Tony

* Actually, Chinook salmon will be flying come April...right into my fishbox if I can only make it through this miserable winter. Tight lines, Whalers.

posted 02-04-2006 02:16 PM ET (US)            

The reason is..."VERADO".

Tom

posted 02-04-2006 04:08 PM ET (US)            

I think Mercury's market posturing in regards to the Opti is what they intended in the big scheme of things. It just makes sense.

posted 02-05-2006 11:45 AM ET (US)            

I have always thought that "verado" had a Spanish ring to it. If the new four-stroke motors are going to be smaller versions of the Verado motors, how about using the Spanish morphology for expressions of diminutives:

VERADO + ITO = VERADITO

We can call these new little four-strokes the Veraditos!

posted 02-06-2006 10:00 PM ET (US)            

The current Mercury branded (Yamaha made power head) 75, 90, and 115-HP motors weigh about 386-pounds. These are some of the heaviest motors in that horsepower range. If Mercury really wanted to get some attention with the weight of their new VERADITOS, they ought to aim for 320-pounds, which is about the weight of a 90-HP E-TEC, NISSAN, or TOHATSU outboard.

The weight of the big VERADO motors has been such a concern that some boat builders have been reported to have made changes to their hull molds to add more buoyancy to the stern of their boats in order to provide enough flotation for the VERADO motor. It has also been reported that Mercury is re-engineering the VERADO and is trying to reduce its weight. The target for weight loss is 100-pounds. If they achieve that, it will be quite significant.

posted 02-06-2006 10:08 PM ET (US)            

One of the reasons that the E-TEC motors are heavier is because of the "wiggle room" that the heavy 4-strokes gave them. This allowed the engineers at BRP to over-engineer certain components.

I'm not saying that a lightweight Verado would be less quality than they currently are, but I'd want some hard answers to very pointed questions about where the weight savings came from - and I'm not sure that is information that Brunswick would be willing to provide.

posted 02-07-2006 09:38 AM ET (US)            

Here is my guess on the secret total integration "game changing" offering from Mercury/Brunswick this year. Remember, its just a guess.

All future Brunswick outboard boats packaged with the Verado will be equipped with a DTS integrated Position Controlled Mobile Ballast Unit (PCMBU). Here's how it works: There is a lead ballast of appropriate size mounted on a position adjustable motorized cart which is on a rail system in the bottom of the boat. The rail extends from the bow to the stern. The DTS control system is connected to the motor of the cart and sends signals to the motor to optimally position the ballast for a given throttle movement/position by the operator to compensate for the extra weight of the Verado hanging on the transom. There will be user selectable settings much like there is on the automobiles with adjustable shock absorbers where the user can select soft, normal or firm settings although in this case it will be high bow, somewhat high bow and almost normal. When the DTS system is in neutral or low speed forward, this system will default to its self-leveling mode where the ballast position is heavily biased towards the bow section of the boat to correct stern heavy static trim problems, particularly useful when passengers want to occupy the stern quarter seats or the fold out Euro-transom bench seat intruding on the cramped deck space immediately behind the leaning post/bait station.

Also integrated into the Smartcraft-DTS-radar-GPS-fish finder- satelite weather-XM/Sirius satelite radio all for one and one for all system (all at the mercy of a single fuse) will be the mandatory (absolutely no choice allowed) Navman Scary Motion Damping System (SMDS in Brunswick parlance) which will include another position adjustable mobile ballast system traversing the beam of the boat. Between the longitudinal and traverse DTS and gyroscopic input computer controlled ballast systems and user selectable settings that will be provided on the 10 inch Navman multi-function color display, all rolling and pitching motion caused by the seas on the boat can be damped out. Folks will instantly recognize one of these completely integrated Brunswick boats on the water by the large outboard hanging on the transom and its complete almost gravity defying in some respects, lack of rolling or pitching motion in any seas. Brunswick will have a patent on this system enabling them to have the very, very high hanging fruit, namely all those who wanted to go boating but couldn't or wouldn't because they get sea sick or were just scared of falling in, all to itself locking out the competition for years to come. The "future of boating" for them will be almost the same experience they have driving in the car straight, the long way across the entire Great Plains and isn't that just what we all want? ;)

posted 02-07-2006 07:50 PM ET (US)            

One new engine shown at the DETROIT AUTO SHOW was a GM design where the engine was coupled to a transmission which also included an electric motor. A larger than normal starter motor was also a combination alternator. The gasoline engine could be switched off when not needed, such as during braking or at a stop light, then restarted by the starter/generator. The starter/alternator was belt driven.

The under-flywheel alternator approach will probably become incorporated into automobile engines when they design a real hybrid motor, instead of bolting on an alternator. The mechanical losses in the belt and its idler pulleys are probably significant horsepower losses. These days the automobile industry is looking for as much fuel economy as it can find.

posted 02-08-2006 01:50 AM ET (US)            

http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/sustainability/reports/05/ 400_products/3_thirty/432.html

posted 02-08-2006 02:49 PM ET (US)         

First they tested the 3 cylinder Evinrudes agaist the 3 cylinder Optimaxs, in the 90 HP models. Decible sounds were the same. In that test, the Honda 90 was the quietest running engine at speed.

Then they tested the 3.3 liter Evinrudes against the 3.3 liter Vmax's and 3.0 liter Optimax in 2 different shootouts. Here again, they said the running sound in decibles of the Evinrude and Optimax were the same. The V-max was a little louder.

So the Evinrude folks can't have it both ways. If the E-tec's are advertized to be a quiet running engine at speed, then so is the Optimax. Or, conversely, if the Optimax is considered to be one LOUD running engine, then so is the Evinrude. Take your pick. And for a shocker, my pick is that I happen to think the Optimax/E-tec ARE LOUD running engines, at least compared to my 200 EFI's and Verados I have experienced.

Now, B&WB magazine, which many consider to have pro-Evinrude writers like John Tiger, also said THEY (the writer) liked the sound quality of the Evinrude better than Mercury. That kind of a SUBJECTIVE opinion is fine by me, and many might agree with him, since I happen to like the sound of the Merc 225 EFI's a lot better than the sound of the carbed Evinrude 3.0 liter 225's, and none might agree with me. That means nothing to most readers.

So, if B&WB's decible testing is not rigged, we know that the Evinrude 75 & 90's, and the 200-250's, the only engines they have out on the market in any quantity, have the same NOISE level as the same HP Optimax's. We don't yet know about the 130, 150 and 175 Evinrudes against the 135, 150 and 175 Opitmax's, since there are still none out on the market for the public to buy and listen to, or mag's to test them.

And I am not talking idle sound here, since we all know the 4-strokes excel in that area.

Fourdfish says the problem with Mercury is ORBITAL.
ACTUALLY, FROM WHAT I'VE BEEN READING, I THINK HE'S GOT THAT BACKWARDS. Maybe the problem with Evinrude is E-TEC? Orbital/Optimax beats E-tec in everything, including fuel mileage, top end power and speed, acceleration, gearcase design, now proven reliability (are you in the test pilot business?), Smartcraft availability for years to 75HP, DTS for 3 years, and price (from what I can see here about outrageous E-tec pricing). It also beats it in weight except in 75 and 90 horspower sizes. Now, if you like white or blue paint, or are OMC brand loyal, E-tec is for you, and that is also fine. I'm sure it's a great product, like all outboards on the market today, inlcuding the Optimax.

And from what I am reading, the Tohatsu Orbital DFI engines are also excellent, and get better fuel economy than E-tec. Light weight, too, at 90 HP.

So I just don't understand what's bad about Orbital air injection technology. Seems like THE winner to me.

Wasn't this thread supposed to be about what's new in Miami?

Why the Optimax bashing from this tiny minority, in the wrong thread? Why not give Boston Whaler, on this Whaler oriented site, a chance to sell Whalers that MIGHT be powered by Optimax engines?

posted 02-08-2006 04:10 PM ET (US)            

My impression is that these enthusiasts expect Mercury to step up to the plate and upgrade the Optimax abating noise, reducing oil consumption and creating a fuel injection system that can run independent of battery condition, among other things. Whether Mercury chooses to do so or hide behind the protection of locked transoms of its sister boat companies remains to be seen. I think they will hide but I do hope they prove me wrong, maybe as soon as this year's Miami show, as the later will be better for all of us consumers, whatever the brand preferences happen to be.

posted 02-08-2006 06:04 PM ET (US)         

Mercury and Tohatsu don't need "2nd generation" DFI technology, because they first didn't have Ficht. If only E-tec had a ten year history behind it like Optimax, where problems could be found and fixed, then reliability would be known, instead of the current "lick and a promise" one gets. As I have said, it seems that Evinrude may now need "E-TEC II" 3rd generation technology to run with an Optimax in power and fuel economy. I just saw that an Optimax required group 24 1000 CCA battery costs about $15 more than a regular battery. Big deal, the Optimax fuel savings over an E-tec will pay for that cost in one tank full. And from there on out, the fuel savings with Optimax begin to add up.

posted 02-08-2006 07:42 PM ET (US)            

Heck...if I thought I could get away with it, I would have put 115's on my 18 too! :)

One of the reasons I abandoned the idea of a $500/engine savings buying from Florida was that I wanted a dealer I could trust, and get to on a weekend to have it serviced. I still ended up at a dealer 240 miles from my house and 184 miles from my boat; but somehow I get the impression that this individual dealer will take a stand on my behalf if I have problems.

posted 02-08-2006 08:07 PM ET (US)            

The price I paid was about $500 per motor more than I would have paid if I had been willing to drive to SE Florida to have them installed (they would not ship). I figure shipping would have been about $300/engine, so I was not really missing out, though I had to pay sales tax.

This convinces me that "shopping around" on a big ticket item is pretty important with one caveat - either have a third-party dealer/mechanic whom you can rely on; or choose with an appropriate mixture of price and that "bond" with the dealer.

A boat show is a good place to establish those relationships; however I think you have to be careful there because the sales guys are after the quick sale at the meeting.

On another note: I'm really glad to see that someone else whom I respect here (andygere) has "latched" onto the same feature about E-TEC that I did; and the primary thing that led me to E-TEC vs. Optimax (besides a little weight): the battery use/requirements and simplicity of design. I said it before in one of my repower threads; I think this is a key advantage for E-TEC in the 2-stroke DFI comparison (I know, I know, we're comparing E-TEC with 4-strokes, as we should...).

I agree with LHG that it is a little bit of a gamble; however no moreso than buying the first outboard engine with a supercharger. Verados could be an anchor just as easily as E-TEC. In fact, the likelihood that Verado becomes a collossal failure would be far greater than the risk for E-TEC, all things being equal. Owners of both have reported problems with each here on this site.

RE: Verado sightings.
It stands to reason that there are more Verados to see in SE Florida than E-TECs for a very simple reason. People in SE Florida want NEW things. Who owns the transoms to more NEW boats than anyone else? Brunswick. What is Brunswick putting on the transoms of their most expensive new things? Verado. If there's one thing that SE Florida residents like more than NEW, it would have to be EXPENSIVE AND NEW.

Tell me I'm wrong on that one (so I can laugh).

Dave

posted 02-09-2006 12:53 PM ET (US)         

I'm just the reporter here, and don't make the FL market. But in the areas I do my winter boating, Verados are seen everywhere, and 75/90 HP and 3.3 liter Evinrudes nowhere, except for a few on the Broward County Sheriff boats, replacing previous RamFichts, and which are "promotional arrangements" tied in with Intrepid boats.

posted 02-09-2006 10:35 PM ET (US)         

I think the best information we have on 4-stroke longevity is how well (or not well) the older Honda 4-strokes are doing. They have been out for the longest time. Most seem to rave about them.

My information on long life of a 4-stroke came from a Mercury mechanic, who said that the factory is now indicating much longer life for 4-stroke engines in their endurance testing, as much as twice as long. I don't know what Honda is claiming.

posted 02-10-2006 12:05 AM ET (US)            

I alwatys thought there was something about the 2 stroke getting used up faster as every stroke was a power stroke but that may be urban legend, I don't know....

posted 02-10-2006 01:27 AM ET (US)            

Regarding the 4-stroke Hondas, I wonder if they require a timing belt change like their automotive counterparts? Assuming it hasn't failed before the recommended replacement interval, that would be an expensive bit of preventative maintenance, requiring substantial disassembly of the engine. It was about a $1,000 job on the last (and I do mean last) Accord I owned, and that was at least 5 years ago. Looking at the exploded view of a V6 Yamaha 4-stoke, there does appear to be a timing belt used to synchronize its 24 valves. According to the catalog, this means that "Fewer moving parts means more reliability, less maintenance". I'm not buying it. Literally and figuratively.

I'm not saying that these big 4-strokes are dogs, far from it. What I am saying is that I'm not convinced that they are the perfect solution to all that's ever been wrong with outboard motors, and that they may in fact have their own unique maintenance and reliability issues in the long run.

posted 02-10-2006 08:40 AM ET (US)            

Contrast this to the Yamaha F150 on a small boat. 2 GPH is achieved at under 2000 RPM and it doesn't even get the boat on plane. In most cases it has to run at 3500 to 4000 RPM to maintain a decent, fuel efficient plane of 25 to 30 MPH and at that point its burning something between 4 and 6.5 GPH, fuel consumption rates similar to what my car trip computer shows when the car is going up a fairly steep hill at 60 MPH. Yes, that's right, a motor powering a boat on plane is analogous to a motor propelling a car at good speed up a hill ALL THE TIME. So I have strong doubts that a 4-stroke outboard will be able to last the same length of TIME a 4-stroke automobile engine lasts in a car. That doesn't even factor in the significant difference in the environment in which these two engines operate.

"I always thought there was something about the 2 stroke getting used up faster as every stroke was a power stroke but that may be urban legend, I don't know...." Urban legand for sure. Each powerstroke on a 2-stroke is typically not more than HALF as forceful as a powerstroke on a 4-stroke. In other words, for every two flywheel turns, each piston in a 2 or 4-stroke have essentially done the same amount of work BUT the 2-stroke piston did not have to convert ALL of the fuel into that same amount of work in ONE shot (this simplified view ignores the extra work that the 4-stroke must do to overcome the valve train friction).

I look at it this way, but for the EPA and CARB regulations, there would be no large 4-stroke outboards to talk about. The large 4-strokes owe their existence in Miami to the emissions regulations and to the increasing average weight of modern boats. If the 4-strokes were inherently better for use as outboards, it seems to me they would have been the preferred format right from the start and we would have seen a large 4-stroke invasion from the Japanese conglomerate outboard companies right from their start in our market.

From a practical perspective, I'm always thankful everytime I lift my 3.5 HP 2-stroke from the Whaler onto the inflatable transom that it doesn't weigh 50 lbs or complain by going into hydrolock that it was laid down on its side the wrong way. Perhaps we will see a 3.5 HP E-TEC at Miami?

posted 02-10-2006 12:55 PM ET (US)            

The point is that while they put high hours on the engines, the vast majority are at idle speeds. This is where the benefits of 4-stroke technology are greatest - in fuel efficiency, smokeless operation, quietness and the ability to idle all day without loading the spark plugs. Sure they're run hard from time to time, but 98 percent of the hours on these motors is going to be at or about idle speed.

For hardcore fishermen; the situation is going to be the same - 90 percent of the time will be at idle or trolling speeds.

For other recreational boaters; however; we're talking about 3,500 RPM cruising a good portion of time.

Is there a difference to engine longevity? I don't know yet.

Re: failed powerheads.
I don't know, but I sense that there are still a lot more 2-stroke outboards out there than 4-strokes. And the "average age" of the 2-stroke motors is much higher than the 4-stroke motors that are out there. It is reasonable to expect there to be more problems and failures with the older equipment than the younger fleet of 4-strokes.

As others have stated, time will tell what the specific problems will be on the 4-strokes; and we'll likely hear much about them when they start to show themselves. The questions are: Will those problems be more troublesome or expensive than the problems we already know about with the 2-strokes? And: Do the "benefits" of the 4-strokes outweigh the costs associated with an aged 4-stroke motor in a marine environment?

Again; I don't know or pretend to know what the future holds for either technology. I chose to go with a known platform that has mods to help it meet and exceed the current emissions requirements. I'm pretty sure that in 15 years, I'll start to replace small electrical parts on my motor...just as my 20-year old Mercury needed new electrical parts for the last two years (since I owned it) and there was evidence (receipts, bookmarked pages in the service manual) of previous electrical component failure.

posted 02-10-2006 01:59 PM ET (US)         

Which brings up an interesting idea. Why don't 4-stroke engine designers eliminate the crankcase in favor of one of these oil spraying devices. Other than not wanting to put Jiffy Lube out of business, there must be some other reason.

With 4-stroke engine sales pushing 80% of market, or even higher, I think this is where the action is going to be, whether we like it or not. Putting Evinrude and Mercury aside, the Japanese have shown us they don't often miss a market, and 4-stroke is where they solidly are. And Mercury's Verado 4-strokes, and even big cube Suzuki's, are showing us that they are not performance dogs.

posted 02-10-2006 08:57 PM ET (US)            

As for MERCURY and their FUTURE OF BOATING, I hope this turns out to be something significant. If it is just some ho-hum feature add on, I think people will be disappointed, as will stock holders. People are getting worn out with too many features. Give me solid, reliable, affordable, dependable anytime.

I am interested to see these new VERADITO (sub-Verado) motors from MERCURY. The 75, 90, and 115-HP models are the heart of the outboard motor market. Collectively they probably outsell all the other horsepower models. Let's cross our fingers and hope we see some innovative, strong, lightweight outboard motors--the kind of motor we might want to put on the transom of a classic Boston Whaler boat.

If you are at the show, please look closely at the new EVINRUDE E-TEC motors below 40-HP. I am very curious to see if they use the same fuel injector that the other, larger horsepower E-TEC motors so far have all shared. My feeling is there may be a new, smaller injector used for the first time in this family of lower horsepower engines from Bombardier. Take a picture and email it to me!

posted 02-10-2006 09:24 PM ET (US)         

But I think the name Veradito is a bummer. It makes these Wisconsin built engines sound like they are coming from some taco shop in Mexico! It is a name Taco Bell could use, however. Their Chalupa seems to be getting old. I have heard, however, that Evinrude is considering calling their new small engines E-tecidos!

posted 02-11-2006 01:13 PM ET (US)            

This is not really a problem for Evinrude, not at all like the problem Mercury has with their new motors. There is a very significant difference in these situations.

For Evinrude, the name E-TEC is completely applicable to all of their E-TEC motors because the motors all use the same technology across all horsepower ranges. The 40-HP E-TEC uses the same technology as the 250-HP E-TEC. There is no difference. The motors use the same fundamental design, fuel injection, and computer control systems. Bombardier and Evinrude can use the E-TEC brand name with all of these motors and have a totally consistent product group. When they describe a motor as an E-TEC, the consumer will know precisely what set of features to expect in the motor, as all E-TEC motors share those features.

With Mercury, there is a problem with the Verado name badge. So far, the Verado name has only been applied to the four-stroke motors which have supercharging, digital throttle and shift, and electric-hydraulic steering. Now Mercury is on the verge of introducing a new motor which will share almost none of the features included on the Verado. They are in a bind. If they call it a Verado, they confuse customers about the significance of the Verado name. Remember, Verado is not an outboard motor, it is a totally new propulsion system. Mercury cannot debase their Verado name badge by applying it to a motor which apparently will have none of the features of the other Verado engines. This is why I am quite certain they will not call the new motors "Verado" motors. They need a new name.

Since the motors are sub-Verado in their feature set, they need a new name for them, but one which reflects the heritage of the Verado, if indeed there is going to be any Verado heritage in these motors--we'll have to wait and see if that is the case or not. But, if these new motors do have some portion of their design traceable to the Verado, I have suggested they call them

VERADITOS

from the Spanish morphology for forming diminutives.

Your suggestion that Bombardier call their E-TEC motors in the smaller horsepower E-tecidos does not seem to be compelling at all, First, there really is no need to call them anything but E-TEC. Second, the E-TEC name does not have a Latin or Spanish ring to it, so using a Spanish morphology to form a diminutive name really does not make any sense.

I have always liked the name E-TEC because I viewed it to be consistent with the product. I interpret "E" as indicative of electronics, primarily, and of emissions secondarily. The "TEC" indicates to me the word "technology." Thus when I read or hear the word "E-TEC" I think of electronic technology or emission technology. Because the engine itself is very highly evolved electronically and is ultra-low in emission, the name "E-TEC" is a very natural fit with the product.

On the other hand, the name VERADO does not carry much intrinsic meaning for me in terms of the engine's actual design. Because of my fluency in Spanish and familiarity with Latin, when I first heard the name "Verado" it sounded like the Spanish word "verdad" or "truth." But my initial reaction to it was not particularly positive. It just made no sense to me. After hearing it and using it for two years, I am comfortable with it as a brand name, but it still does not convey much information about the product.

posted 02-12-2006 11:39 AM ET (US)            

"Gort--Klaatu Barada Nikto"

Klaatu is the name of Gort's companion, the alien visitor, Michael Rennie. I always wondered how the rest of that command translated. Now, 55 years later, I finally understand.

"Barada" loosely translates to Verado. (If the speaker had been a male they would have said, "Barado." The transcription of this spoken command into English did not take into account the hard "b" pronunciation given to Latin words.)

"Nickto" translates as "boat show."

Here was a foreshadow of things to come in the outboard motor business! In fact, I think you can see a little of the cowling styling previewed in the face visor worn by Gort!

ASIDE: If my recollection is correct, THE DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL was the first movie shown on the new NBC program, Saturday Night at the Movies, which introduced recent Hollywood motion pictures to prime-time television broadcasts.

posted 02-12-2006 12:01 PM ET (US)            

I want you to back away from the keyboard...this usually happens to every moderator that does not take in enuf outside air and steps too close to cyberspace...I wnat you find your wife...you know...the other person that cannot figure out how you spend so much time at the keyboard....and go to dinner...do not take your blackberry, laptop or any other wi-fi hotspot enabled gadget...especailly stay out of starbucks...

posted 02-13-2006 09:34 AM ET (US)            

Northstar will be showing their new SmartCraft integration which will allow their large display chart plotters to also show engine data. This will bring the high-end Northstar electronics into the same integration with SmartCraft that has been available on the lower-end Navman devices. However, there is an interesting twist to this. A screen shot of the device shows an interesting menu option on the display called DOCKING. What could that be? Any speculation?

Docking is probably the most difficult part of vessel operation, so perhaps Brunswick New Technologies will have something to help in this regard. One fanciful idea might be integration of a joy stick controller with some sort of radar guidance. Or maybe something as simple as having video cameras displayed on the helm station display. I saw this on a friend's large motor yacht; he had a closed circuit TV system aboard and used an aft-facing camera to help him during maneuvering around the dock.

posted 02-13-2006 01:35 PM ET (US)            

I really hope THE FUTURE OF BOATING does NOT turn into:

THE FEATURES OF BOATING

posted 02-14-2006 02:51 PM ET (US)            

quote:

---

LAKE FOREST, Ill., Feb. 14 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Brunswick Corporation (NYSE: BC) announced today that it has acquired a marina on Florida's West Coast. This marina is adjoined by a large boat and yacht service facility that was simultaneously purchased by MarineMax, Inc. (NYSE: HZO). Terms of the transaction were not disclosed.

The marina and service facility, known as Great American Marine, is conveniently located just off the Intracoastal Waterway on Boca Ciega Bay near St. Petersburg, Fla. Brunswick will own the 95-slip marina, while MarineMax will own and operate the service portion of the property.

"This is the first of what Brunswick hopes will be further initiatives to partner with our entire network of dealers to provide our customers with access to water, and to provide an exceptional boating experience," explained Dustan E. McCoy, chairman and chief executive officer of Brunswick Corporation. "This partnership with MarineMax, with their customer-centric strategies, is a great place to start. Going forward, we will continue to explore means to advance the interests of boating and of all of our dealer partners."

William H. McGill, Jr., chairman, chief executive officer, and president of MarineMax, stated, "We are very excited to acquire a service facility of this scale on the West Coast of Florida. This new facility complements our already strong presence in the area and further enhances our strategy of improving our customers' experience. We are glad to be in partnership with Brunswick Corporation, which purchased the adjoining marina. We feel the service facility and the marina will bring added synergies to both companies and demonstrates the strength of our relationship."

Brunswick said it plans to evaluate opportunities to update the marina facilities in the near future.

---

Hmmm. Will non-Brunswick branded boats and motors be allowed at this facility in the future?

posted 02-14-2006 07:51 PM ET (US)            

The show kicks off on Thursday, but in the next day or two there should be a flurry of announcements and releases, such as the one quoted above.

posted 02-15-2006 09:17 AM ET (US)            

quote:

---

Four Stars – Super Ultra Low Emission

The four-star label identifies engines that meet the Air Resources Board’s Sterndrive and Inboard marine engine 2009 exhaust emission standards. Personal Watercraft and Outboard marine engines may also comply with these standards. Engines meeting these standards have 90% lower emissions than One Star – Low Emission engines.

---

posted 02-15-2006 09:48 AM ET (US)            

The high-end Garmin units have had video and SVGA inputs.
I'd thought of it in terms of watching videos and using
a computer, but they could easily have a docking camera
plugged in. When I buy Le Grand Bleu ... ;-)

posted 02-15-2006 03:25 PM ET (US)         

Unless a bunch of in-succession hurricanes radically alter the South Florida real estate market, waterfront marinas/dealerships of all types are really under stress that the property they are sitting on is more valuable than the business itself. The temptation to cash out for millions and retire is huge. Why run a boat yard and it's assorted problems when you can cash out for 10 mil or more?

Waterfront boating, service, storage and docking facilities are rapidly being torn down for high end residential real estate development, as the rich pour in from all over the WORLD, not just the US. All of this not only threatens the boating public, but the manufacturers as well. People won't buy Whalers, Evinrudes, Yamahas, Hatteras etc if there is no place to store, dock and use them, or if those costs are prohibitive. Already, people are buying low end waterfront homes for 500K, many in bad shape, just for the boat dock that comes with it. At the Condominium next door to me, slips for a 45' boat sold for $80,000 each, and are then attached to your condo deed. The 18 they offered, were pre-sold before the building began construction.

I think Brunswick's move is really smart, protecting your sales and client base, while at the same time buying gold-mine real estate that will increase in value. It's a no brainer.

posted 02-15-2006 06:02 PM ET (US)            

The stronger boat dealers moved into the marina business themselves, and at the moment there are several very large marinas which are owned by or very stronly affiliated with certain boat dealers. As a result, you will see a very homogenous boat population in those marinas, that is to say they are almost all Sea-Ray boats.

In one case, a marina operator literally threw out all the sail boats in the marina in order to free up dock space for power boaters who would spend more money at the marina's gas dock in a day than the sail boaters would in a season.

posted 02-15-2006 10:23 PM ET (US)            

They will both be showing impressive new marine electronic products, with the Northstar 8000i leading the charge. The 15-inch display retails for $11,000, so it is probably a bit pricey for the 150 SPORT owner.

Navman will show the 8120 (see fine list of features above from bluewaterpriate Tom) at a mere $2,500, sonar transducer additional. This might be more at home on a center console.

The BNTME network interface bridge will also soon support connections to NMEA-2000 networks, so these new products will have the potential to work with other manufacturer's engine systems besides their corporate brother Mercury's SmartCraft devices.