posted 05-23-2007 09:55 AM ET (US)        

On the particular day we came by the wreck there was another boat anchored near it, perhaps only 100 feet away from the stern of the wreck, and it appeared to be engaged in dive activities. I do not recall what visual display the other vessel was making, but I believe it was showing some flags. As we approached the wreck but were still about 1,000 feet away, the occupants of the other vessel sounded a horn and began to wave their arms over their head in a gesture to signal us to their presence. It was clear to me that the gesture was intended to warn us of their dive activity and to urge us to keep clear of the area.

We stopped our approach to the wreck and idled in the waves for a few minutes to observe from a distance. I did not see any mooring buoys near the wreck, so I assume the other vessel was at anchor. We did see some divers in the water around the other vessel, but we did not see that any of the divers were towing a dive flag to show their underwater location.

The sea state was near calm that day, and we had been hoping to be able to get closer to the wreck by boat to observe it. However, based on the many signals and gestures being made toward us by the other boat, it was clear that their intention was to warn us off, and that we should approach no closer.

According to the Inland Navigation Rules, RULE 27 (paragraph D), vessels engaged in underwater operations and restricted in their ability to maneuver must display certain day shapes or alternatively a rigid replica of the signal flag ALPHA. (See page 97 of rules). Let's assume for the sake of this discussion that the vessel near the wreck was in compliance with this rule.

According to RULE 18 (Responsibility between vessels in sight of one another) we were an "underway" vessel and should keep out of the way of "a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver."

Given the calm sea state, the fair weather, the unlimited visibility, and the slow speed of our operation, what distance should we maintain between our vessel and the diving vessel?

Is there a hierarchy of regulations that apply? For example, is it possible that there are special regulations of the state of Michigan which would supersede the Inland Navigation Rules? Could the National Park Service have special rules as well?

What is the generally accepted etiquette at a known dive site? Does the first vessel to arrive usually assert an exclusive claim to the site and later arrivals are to stay away? I would like to hear from experienced divers who are also boat operators on this topic.

posted 05-23-2007 10:41 AM ET (US)            

I had someone on a jet ski come driving right up to my buddy and me after a dive to tell us we shouldn't be diving in Cass Lake, that it was too dangerous with all the boat traffic (this was at 9:00 a.m. and we were on the surface after a dive). After telling him to get away form us, we got to see him spend some quality time with the Oakland County Sheriff Marine Division, who cited him for failure to obey the dive flag. It was somewhat satisfying.

posted 05-23-2007 12:49 PM ET (US)            

http://www.garlic.com/~triblet/ba_diving/diveflag.html

In being cautions, please remember that the divers are likely
to have descended the anchor line, so better to pass astern
than ahead of an anchored dive boat.

The red/white dive flag is recognized world wide. About ten
years ago I went through SkinDiver magazine counting dive
flags on non-US vessels. More were flying the red/white
than the alpha flag. Most that were flying the alpha flag
were ALSO flying the red/white. It's time for the ColRegs
to accept the red/white.

posted 05-23-2007 01:25 PM ET (US)         

Here is a picture of the float...
http://i13.tinypic.com/5xf7bbn.jpg

Problem is the boaters around here don't know what that is so they come near me to inspect the orange float and flag. I sure hope someone gives them a ticket someday. The good thing is sound travels much farther underwater and I can hear them coming a mile away.

posted 05-23-2007 01:58 PM ET (US)            

It appears to me they were acting correctly, had the correct flag displayed and were in no way harning you and therefore you should provide the courtesy of respect and give way to them.

Ignorance of the dive flag which has been in use for decades, commonly seen on all waterways and codified in law in most states is not an excuse to run people over or to encroach to closely.

Generally shore based divers will tow a flag, one per team on a surface float. When drift diving from a vessel each team will generally carry a flag and float as well. Some states have different rules as to required distance other boats must yield to the DIVERS DOWN flag. Furthermore, Florida for example requires a 24 inch flag rather than the more common 18 inch divers flag--when diving from a boat to be displayed visibly from that boat while diving operations are underway.

You can be fined by the authorities and even sued (as if there is not enough of that already) if you enter the protected area under power and kill or injure a diver.

Just as fisherman follow certain practices to give way to a vessal already on station fishing or hooked up, the same should be given diving operations. The manners go both ways of course, it is always best to be nice, everyone has more fun that way.

I would think most boating books, mine certainly do, show the two divers flags, the red and white divers down flag and the international blue and white alpha flag. They are in most state and CG Auxilary publications and are in law in most states as well.

I would neve approach a dive operation or flag within several hundred feet or water skiers etc either because I don't want to haem anyone and wind up in jail and in a thread on the THT about the "Idiot than ran over a Diver, Child,skier, wife, boyfriend.

If you note a certain tension in my post it is because we have been run over by boats apparently deliberatly and with malice, jet skies and various other manner of powered craft, had the flag stolen, once was towed by a jetski who was "salvaging" my dive float etc. Attempting to "hook" a dive is attempted murder and could result in very bad things. Usually when I make it to the surface after such an incident, neither me nor my buddies are in a good mood, the VHF/cell gets used to call the CG or Sherrif Patrol. Last year, after such an incident, a boat load of drunks got hauled off. Afterwards we continued and the authorities hid around an island and waited and issued several more citations. Ignorance is not an excuse to endanger a human life and we don't need "boat rage" incidents either. People need to behave and learn to respect others pursuits as equally legitimate as their own.

posted 05-23-2007 02:07 PM ET (US)            

The boat did indeed have a "diver down" flag displayed, and another one - the "diver down" flag is what I recognized.

While I was certainly happy enough to be very cautious around this boat, I was also a bit disappointed in that we were unable to inspect the wreck much closer due to the frantic gestures of the occupants of the boat. (I believe this was a private vessel).

The 200 feet rule seems appropriate, however, it would only allow a maximum of 4 boats to be anchored off this shipwreck at any one time to explore.

What do you divers do when a dive site gets a little crowded?

posted 05-23-2007 02:26 PM ET (US)            

Dave, with regard to crowded dive sites, I generally wait at a safe distance until the divers surface and take down their flag. Sometimes you have to wait up to an hour, but if you really want make the dive, it's just what you have to do.

posted 05-23-2007 02:49 PM ET (US)            

Divers flags pertain to approaching dive vessals also, just because they are there to dive also gives them no special right over the vessal that was there first and displaying the flag. The second or third or fourth dive boat, fishing vessal, sightseeing vessal must HEED the flag and remain clear while under power--period. If that means only four boats or one boat can get on the reef/wreck/site, then they must await their turn. We always try to dive and get on with it so others can enjoy the place as well if it is a busy day.

Yep, you can be sightseeing and have a boat pull in, anchor, put up a flag and begin diving. If you were there first I would calmly mention that to the other skipper and ask him to let you know when you can safely leave the area (when and upon your choice to do so, after your done, since you were there first) but you must heed the flag once propellers are turning.

We do not wave frantically, the reason many do however even when the approaching vessal is still 1,000 feet away is because they have been run over before and figure you (the approaching vessal) has not a clue as to what they are doing and is about to run over them again. When you have children,a wife, friends in the water and a unknown vessal is motoring toward you despite the flag, I would not expect them to do anything other than wave frantically. I remian polite and courteous, I try and call them on the VHF and warn them away. How would the dive vessal know if the approaching vessal has a net, trolling lines etc that might endanger the divers? They don't, therefore the frantic waving. Once being run over several times this generally makes one gun shy.

posted 05-23-2007 03:32 PM ET (US)            

I'm scratching my head more about nighttime diving. The colregs give a set of red and white lights in a vertical line that is supposed to be shown by vessels with limited maneuverability such as dive boats. However, there seems to be a lot of confusion in the diver community here on whether this applies to them -- I've never seen these lights used by dive boats at night. (There is nothing in California law on this.) I've been meaning to ask the Coast Guard about it.

Re crowding, much seems to be a judgment call. If we pull up on a site where another dive boat is anchored, we'll first hail them to ask if we can share the site. A few months ago we arrived at a site where there was a boat whose divers were in the water, so we chose another pinnacle as far away as possible on the same reef where we judged we couldn't swing into them if wind/swell/current changed. Whenever in the neighborhood of another dive boat we always approaching we reduce speed greatly. I've unfortunately had the fairly frequently experience when in my boat with divers in the water that another boat will come barreling straight toward us as if on automatic pilot. A couple of times this has called for sounding our horn.

posted 05-23-2007 07:11 PM ET (US)            

The red/white/red lights for night diving are problematic:
try buying or even building them for a small boat. The only
boat hereabouts (Monterey) that ever had them was the Pacific
Star (now in SoCal, and they were flipping huge (100' boat)).
I've spent a fair amount of time trying to figure out how to
fabricate a CG-approved set, or even a functional set, without
much luck.

Here, it's generally accepted to be OK to approach at idle speed
with a sharp lookout. The other boat will usually point out
their divers if they are anywhere near your path.

Sharing an occupied site is a judgment call. It requires
knowledge of the site (I usually have tons of that), and
a careful assessment of where the divers are. If both boats
have the same scope out, everything is cool no matter how
the wind and current swing, given that anchors don't drag,
which is likely given that diver checked the hook.

posted 05-23-2007 08:26 PM ET (US)            

I am not at all swayed by what things say on websites. I have found that even governmental agencies put things on websites which are not authoritative. It is much more authoritative to cite a regulation, a law, an ordinance, and so on.

In the case being discussed here, the location is quite a distance offshore. I do not understand which jurisdiction takes precedence. Perhaps a village on the shoreline has an ordinance about diving. Does its jurisdiction extend 15 miles offshore? The island is clearly in the State of Michigan, but the wreck area is clearly in the National Park. So whose regulations apply? A regulation carried out from the shore for 15 miles? A regulation from the state? A regulation from the federal government and Colregs?

So far I have seen a cite that the vessel with the proper flag can assert an area of 200-foot radius about, and all other vessels must keep at least this far away. This is Kalbus's cite of Michigan law Section 324.80155. I believe that this regulation would be clearly binding if the location were contained in the state of Michigan, however Lake Michigan is part of Michigan, Indiana, Illinois, and Wisconsin. This area is in the Michigan portion, but given its offshore distance and National Park location, how do I tell if Michigan has preeminent authority?

If this is the governing regulation, then we were about FIVE TIMES that distance, and the anchored boat seemed to be very concerned about our presence.

I read the web page from the park service, but I did not see any material which seemed to be try to inform me about how to navigate my vessel while on the waters of the Great Lakes and in the vicinity of the wreck. If I missed something, please inform me.

I am not trying to slice a fine point of law regarding the flag being displayed. The ALPHA signal or the DIVER DOWN flag--either one seems OK to me--but I am curious which is more proper in this situation.

Whether or not the international COLREGS ought to be changed can be left to a petition for the Coast Guard.

So far my conclusion is that in navigating my vessel in this situation I am bound by the COLREGS to keep clear of the vessel if displaying an ALPHA flag, and by the statues of the State of Michigan to keep 200-feet away from the DIVER DOWN flag. Therefore I could have properly approached the other end of the wreck as long as I was 200-feet from the flag on the other vessel.

posted 05-23-2007 08:37 PM ET (US)            

Divers tend to wander, and they usually pop up surprised to find themselves where they are, so whatever distance the law says you should be from a boat with a flag, it isn't enough.

Also, because sound travels well underwater human hearing can't discern direction, so it's hard to tell if a boat is coming or going when you're down there.

Lastly, and a little closer to home for me, is the increasing popularity of freediving, which leaves wetsut clad, semi submerged divers on the surface for long periods of time between dives. They're difficult to see under the best circumstances even though some trail a smallf loat and flag behind them. But what most freedivers don't stop to consider, is that if a diver submerges for one minute, a boat doing 20 knots will travel almost 600 yards. If he stays down 90 seconds that distance is half a mile. There's no way any skipper saw the diver make his initial descent, and he has no idea the diver is there.

posted 05-23-2007 09:17 PM ET (US)            

Legalities aside, it is very uncommon, especially in Michigan, for recreational dive boats to display the Alpha flag. The Alpha flag requirement is also rarely enforced. However, as a boater approaching a vessel engaged in diving operations, by complying with the rules applicable to the diver-down flag, you will also likely be in compliance with any rules applicable to the Alpha flag.

With regard to diving etiquette, the usual and polite practice is for the vessel on the dive site to complete its dives and move away from the dive site as quickly as possible if other boats are waiting to dive the site. Although some dive boats will occasionally approach a dive site where another dive boat is moored for diving purposes, technically they should not do so. If it is done, however, the second boat should approach very slowly, looking for bubbles from the divers below. In the event that you are within the 200 foot limit and you strike a diver, you will likely be found liable in a civil suit since you violated the statute. You will also likely face criminal penalties.

posted 05-23-2007 11:37 PM ET (US)            

At all times, do what makes sense: low, even idle, speed
with 100 yards of a dive flag (red/white/red or alpha) or
their anchor. Keep a sharp lookout for bubbles or divers on
the surface.

All things being equal, pass astern rather than forward.

Don't be influenced by what you see other boats do. You may
be approaching my boat, and see another boat approach
quickly. You may have missed me giving a good buddy a quick
signal that Linda's 20' in front of the boat at 2' taking
jellyfish pictures.

Actually the scariest thing is sailboats. They don't make
any noise. There was one time the local yacht club laid
out their afternoon race course right through where we
were anchored. We were there before they laid out their
course (saw them towing their marker buoys out before we
rolled int).

posted 05-24-2007 09:50 AM ET (US)            

In the case we are discussing here, no one was "running in on a vessal [sic] with divers in the water." The exact opposite happened: we got no closer than about 1,000-feet and we were at idle speed. Under either the COLREGS or the statutes of the State of Michigan, we properly navigated our vessel.

As for there being some absolute clarity about whose jurisdiction we were in, I am sorry to inform readers that there is nothing clear about it. Even though we were in the waters of the State of Michigan, which is part of the United States of America, it turns out that with regard to some boating activities such as fishing, we were also under the jurisdiction of a band of Indian tribes. Fifteen miles offshore is not the same as being on an inland lake.

As for web sites as a source of authority, I again express my wariness. The National Park Service is a fine organization, but they can't seem to spell the name of this wrecked vessel with consistency. Things like this cause some doubt to creep into my trust of their web site as authoritative on rules for vessel navigation.

In researching this topic I found an interesting discussion on another website, one focused on diving in Wisconsin. It asserts:

"On the Great Lakes and other federal waters, your dive boat while engaged in diving is required by federal Inland Navigation Rule 27 to identify itself and its activity. At night, this is done by displaying three, 360* lights in a vertical line where they can best be seen. These lights are red, white and red. For daylight operations a rigid color code flag "A" is flown.

"The alpha flag is a navigational signal indicating the vessel's restricted maneuverability and does not pertain to the diver. The flag is a white and blue, swallow-tail flag at least one meter high and visible from any angle."

Cf.: http://www.hooferscuba.org/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=8

So there is a diver's organization which seems to recognize that there are multiple requirements for display of proper signals when diving.

posted 05-24-2007 10:01 AM ET (US)            

I do not know exactly what the rules are in Washington State but I have always observed a 100 yard clearance around any boat or float displaying a diver down flag.

posted 05-24-2007 10:13 AM ET (US)            

With regard to the Alpha flag, the applicable statute clearly requires it to be displayed by a vessel engaged in diving operations. However, as many people have posted above, this requirement is rarely complied with and rarely enforced. For practical purposes, if you see a dive flag, it really shouldn't matter whether the vessel used by the divers is displaying an Alpha flag or not. In either case, you should stay at least 200 feet away from the dive flag.

As far as whose jurisdiction you were in, the answer is clear. You were in Michigan waters. The Michigan statute concerning dive flags was applicable. The federal statute concerning the Alpha flag was also applicable. It is very unlikely that any tribal law provision conflicting with those statutes would be enforceable.

posted 05-24-2007 03:41 PM ET (US)            

You can further expect the majority of both private and commercial vessals engaged in diving acitivities to become quickly wary of approaching vessals and if that vessal becomes to close you can expected a reaction from the skipper of that vessal which in my case is a call on the cell phone or VHF to which ever authority is in control of the area.

You were in the State of Michigan waters, geeez. No soup for you.

In areas we have been where the water way is restricted such as small clear rivers in Florida, the common practice is to continue navigation but to remain clear of the divers and use due caution. Such streams are often hardly 200 feet wide, both boating and diving routinely take place. Many such areas have manatee warnings as well. You are expected to proceed at idle or lowest speed that allows you to make way.

Diver flag on my kayak: [dead link removed]
Diver flag on cover of 1957 Skin Diver magazine:[dead link removed]

The flag your going to see in the United States of America 97.89% of the time when diving is being undertaken is the red and white, long recognized and accepted, Divers Down Flag. If you also see the Stars and Bars battle flag on the bow that means they are rednecks as well and are not likely to engage in a gentile argument concerning the finer points of obscure and mostly ignored international regulations. This is Amuricah.

posted 05-24-2007 03:51 PM ET (US)         

A question for you.

If I am trolling along bouncing bottom with my downriggers for lake trout and I "catch" and injure or worse a diver who has strayed 600' from his clearly marked dive boat what would and should happen to me?

Let's assume that before I caught the diver I had altered my course to give a wide (600') cushion to the clearly marked dive boat.

posted 05-24-2007 04:00 PM ET (US)            

If the boat was not a commercial dive boat, then it was a private boat that liked to go diving with a lot of people aboard. I cannot tell you much more about it because we never got very close to it. I do have excellent visual acuity.

It is clear to me from the COLREGS and the Michigan statutes that the divers were entitled by law to a certain safe distance, and that is what they got from me with very ample extra margin.

posted 05-24-2007 04:32 PM ET (US)            

On larger wrecks, there is often more than one mooring buoy, in which case, they are usually spread apart by some distance. In those cases, the second boat to the site is free to moor if a buoy is open.

On shallower wrecks and shallow reefs, I would generally drag the dive flag with me during the dive. On those occasions, I would expect any arriving boats to respect the 200 foot minimum distance from the dive flag.

posted 05-24-2007 06:31 PM ET (US)            

I believe in being nice, it is more fun when everybody is happy and shiny. It is easier to share than to be selfish.

posted 05-24-2007 06:43 PM ET (US)            

H&D -

I think diving is gaining popularity in the Great Lakes....but by and large, I think in the past it has been relatively rare as compared to fishing and recreation (and commercial) activities on the lakes. In the Southern portion of Lake Michigan, Lake Erie and Lake Ontario - the water is certainly warm enough to generate some enthusiasm for going under and staying there.

Northern Lake Michigan, Lake Huron and Lake Superior enjoy incredible water clarity, but it is also very cold water. I believe that thins the herd, so to speak.

I agree that it is pretty presumptious to assume that JimH and I, and Backlash (Who were all there at the time) were operating or navigating the boat in an illegal or inappropriate manner without having been there.

The occupants of the boat were quite animated. You could have made out their gestures from 1,500 feet away, I'm sure.

Maybe they were having seizures.

posted 05-25-2007 12:35 AM ET (US)            

1. You are unlikely to be able to buy or rent SCUBA gear without
a certification.

2. Not having the skills you learn in the basic "open water
I" SCUBA class is very likely to make you dead or a vegetable.

Diving is becoming more popular in the Great Lakes because
the Zebra Mussels are making the water clearer. In some cases,
a LOT clearer.

Dive flag laws DO vary a great deal from state to state.
And so does the enforcement. About four years ago, a diver
got run over by a boat right next to a boat flying a dive
flag and killed. The captain of the dive boat was on the
load hailer warning them off when the accident occured.
The authorities did not prosecute on manslaughter, though
IIRC they did on BUI (for the SoCal folks, this was at
Catalina).

So net: please stand well clear of a dive flag, whatever
color it is. If you do need to approach, do so at idle
speed with sharp and multiple sharp lookouts.

posted 05-25-2007 11:04 AM ET (US)            

quote:

---

Diver Down Flag

This flag may be flown from a vessel or a float and
signifies that divers are below and caution is
required. Vessels must not exceed 5 mph or create
a wake within 200' of a Diver Down flag. Establish
and maintain communications with dive boats displaying
a flag before approaching. Flag colors are
red and white.

---

URL: http://www.nps.gov/isro/planyourvisit/upload/Boating%20Guide.pdf

Would seem to say that you are not excluded from the area, but that you must use common sense precautions when approaching.

posted 05-25-2007 11:53 AM ET (US)         

It was a sincere question. You seem to be educated on the subject and seem to have an impassioned opinion so I asked you.

I often fish in the area of a couple of popular dive locations on Lake Champlain and have been in this situation before.

posted 05-25-2007 12:44 PM ET (US)            

COLREGS: To keep out of the way of the other vessel displaying an ALPHA signal flag replica or proper daymarks. (Cf RULE 18, 27)

STATE OF MICHIGAN: To not operate my vessel within 200-feet of the boat or buoy displaying a red flag with a diagonal white stripe. (Cf.: Section 324.80155)

NATIONAL PARKS: To not create a wake or exceed 5-MPH within 200-feet of the Diver Down flag; to establish communication with a vessel displaying the Diver Down flag before approaching. (Cf: a web site)

This last one is the most interesting. It does not say to stay out or stay away, it just says to go slow, make no wake, and contact the other vessel before approaching.

This discussion is not about splitting hairs, making arguments on fine points, or rationalizing. (By the way, "rationalize" means to prove true something you know is false.) The discussion is about what the actual rules are, not what people think the rules are. Many people offer their opinions on what the actual regulations which govern boating are believed to say, but, in general, I have found that the actual regulations are generally clearly written and make their intentions clear.

posted 05-26-2007 11:28 AM ET (US)            

As for the concept of four boats having already converged on a 350ft wreck and you being the fifth boat to arrive, nothing limits you from setting anchor outside the 100ft radius, and towing your own dive flag in, or picking up your anchor and towing your own boat in using your fins. You are simply limited to not motoring within 100ft of any "diver down" flag being flown.

As for diving increasing in popularity in the Great Lakes, I find it humorous. My father and his brother grew up in Illinois and learned to scuba dive in the great lakes 50 years ago. This was before the days of "certification" and classes on scuba diving, when 2 hose regulators and steel tanks were the all there were (no bouyancy compensators even).

As the number of boating fatalities increases in Florida each year, I have come to the realization that no matter whether I have posted a "Diver Down" flag or an "Alpha" flag on the boat, I will tow my own floating dive flag with me while I am snorkeling. I have had more close calls with idiots and folks who rented personal watercraft for the day, than I care to discuss. If I am injured or killed by an idiot, I want my family to be able to utilize the full extent of the law to prosecute the idiot. I want there to be no reasonable doubt that I was within 100ft of my dive flag, which has a 50ft rope on it. Towing a flag with me is only required in Florida if I have no boat to fly the flag from (typically, when diving off the beach). However, there is no limitation on the number of flags I can fly if I wish to fly one off the boat and one on a float I tow with me.

I can see in California kelp would be a problem in towing a flag with me... I'd never considered that Chuck.

posted 05-26-2007 11:40 AM ET (US)            

Is it possible the other boats was signalling for your assistance? Perhaps they had a dead battery and needed a jump start.

posted 05-26-2007 12:21 PM ET (US)            

From a Coast Guard web site:
------
Visual Distress Signals
All vessels used on coastal waters, the Great Lakes, territorial seas, and those waters connected directly to them, up to a point where a body of water is less than two miles wide, must be equipped with U.S.C.G. Approved visual distress signals. Vessels owned in the United States operating on the high seas must be equiped with U.S.C.G. Approved visual distress signals.
------

If they were in distress I am certain they would have displayed the proper visual distress signal, perhaps a flare or a smoke signal or

Orange distress flag

Day signal only.
--Must be at least 3 x 3 feet with a black square and ball on an orange background.
--Must be marked with an indication that it meets Coast Guard requirements in 46 CFR 160.072.
--Most distinctive when attached and waved on a paddle, boathook, or flown from a mast.
--May also be incorporated as part of devices designed to attract attention in an emergency, such as balloons, kites, or floating streamers.

I have all this stuff on my boat, and if I were in distress and saw three other boats approaching, I would show them the visual distress signals.

I do not quite understand why there is an ongoing need to conjecture about the other vessel. As I initially stated, for the purpose of this discussion we can assume they were showing all the proper signals, flags, day shapes, maintaining radio watch, and so on. You can also assume they are not armed with Glock pistols and spear guns, nor engaged in something illegal. I am more interested in the actual regulations that affect me--a non-diving boat approaching a wreck site--and in the usual customs and etiquette among divers. These things are written down or handed down from experience. Wild speculation about the other boat is not a particularly profitable way to proceed in the discussion. We could speculate they were recovering a lost alien space craft, but, again, that is somewhat speculative.

posted 05-26-2007 01:21 PM ET (US)         

Also there is no flag, shape or light to show if your doing something illegal, like stealing artifacts off the ship.

posted 05-31-2007 10:14 AM ET (US)            

Anyone that dives knows that there are many divers that always get "lost" when they go down. They can end up hundreds of feet away from their boat and not even realize it. In New England we are thrilled to have 10' of visibility, some days we would just like to be able to see our hands. Just imagine going down 50', closing your eyes and swimming around for an hour. Now find the anchor line so you can ascend. It is almost impossible for good divers....for average divers it IS impossible.

Good Seamanship dictates that you stay WELL away from the dive flag, especially if you are unfamiliar with how divers may actually be using the particular dive site and where they are likely to have wandered off.

Personally I think 500' minimum at idle speed is reasonably safe. If you don't need to be in the location or are traveling faster then 1000' is better.

BTW, we always fly the Alpha flag and the diver down flag. The Alpha flag to be legal and the dive down flag because nobody knows what the Alpha flag means <g>.

The other boat probably over reacted but if you had ever been run over you'd understand their anxiety. Were there three boats approaching or just one? If three were approaching then no wonder they were freaking out.

posted 05-31-2007 01:05 PM ET (US)            

There was no wind and slick seas, as we got closer to the boat we could see a dive flag, we also noted that the four guys on the 20ft boat were bottom fishing and doing quite well.

As we drifted closer with the motor running but in neutral they began to yell and scream about the danger we were causing the divers. We were still about 150 to 200ft from their boat so I killed the engine and continued my drift. Once we were about 500ft past I restarted the engine , made a big circle and started another drift about 500ft above them.

This pass took us a little closer , they were still yelling and fishing and we were still drifting. I did get close enough this pass to ask if their fishing put the divers ( that I had started to doubt were in the water)in danger . They said no just my boat was the problem.

As I started my third pass we had been in the area for almost an hour, seen no divers , no bubbles and given the water was 75 ft deep were sure they were not diving, but instead using the dive flag to keep others away from their fishing spot.

So every pass we made after this one we would drop down a couple of lines , catch a couple of nice red snapper and then go around again .We did this for about another hour , never saw any divers , caught alot of nice fish and made the guys in the anchored boat made enough to pop.

posted 05-31-2007 10:06 PM ET (US)            

As for nobody diving in 75' of water, I'm with Chuck, 75' is just getting started, and if there is any subsurface current, your bubbles may not be surfacing directly above you. That's why commercial boats around here don't follow the bubbles to keep track of a dive party on the bottom. You follow the "dive ball" (orange bumper/fender).

As for you folks who think 10' is good visibility, come to my house, I'll let you free dive for my wrenches in the canal behind the house with zero visibilty. I'm spoiled, I learned to snorkel in water where 30' visibility was a lousy day.

posted 05-31-2007 11:53 PM ET (US)            

http://www.inkbox.net/images/whale-rock-kick.jpg

Due to red tide, visibility was only 6 to 8 feet, so while I didn't hit my head on the boat, we had to be careful not to run into some of the rock pinnacles we were diving around at Pt. Vicente.

At one point we noticed another dive boat on a local wreck, and after they failed to answer two hails on channel 16 I approached very slowly to just within yelling distance to ask them about the visibility they were seeing. All of them appeared to be onboard, and no divers were hurt in this maneuver.

At the second dive site, I forgot to hoist the dive flags (given that we have to take them down when we're running). So even though the chance of getting a ticket in California is slim, I swam back over at one point to take care of that.

posted 06-01-2007 07:59 AM ET (US)            

I do agree that the fellows 2manyboats saw were
using a dive flag to keep other fishers away and I hope he
got the numbers on their secret fishing spot.