posted 11-18-2007 12:37 PM ET (US)        

Some casual reading on-line gives me the impression there is a lot of finger pointing going on, particularly between the NTSB and the USCG. See:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-spill16nov16-ap,0,2939939. story?coll=la-home-center

for some details. That story contains a transcript of the radio traffic between the COSCO BUSAN and Vessel Traffic Control (VTS).

A collision occurs between two moving vessels; an allision occurs when a moving vessel strikes a stationary vessel or object. Compare at

http://www.m-i-link.com/dictionary/default.asp?term=allision

posted 11-18-2007 04:31 PM ET (US)            

Chuck

posted 11-18-2007 04:48 PM ET (US)            

http://www.cargolaw.com/2000nightmare_singles.only.html#Cosco.Busan

posted 11-19-2007 01:43 AM ET (US)            

I don't know if there will be television coverage, but it there is, it ought to be interesting. A few months ago I watched this same committee go over the Coast Guard's problems with their failed ship lengthening--that was some interesting C-SPAN television.

Here is more information and background from the House of Representatives:

posted 11-19-2007 01:07 PM ET (US)            

Sometimes it is hard to get your bearings in the fog while you are "rounding too"...even with GPS, Radar & Swing meters. "Round too" means turning around 180. A lot of times Tugs can push the bow around faster than the instruments can adjust. Radar screen is blur, GPS is constantly resetting, swing meter is pegged. But its not a big deal, once you get in the ballpark you slow down until you have accurate bearings and proceed.** see below

AIS: I read the disclaimer. Looks pretty accurate.
Watch the SH BRIGHT. This ship is inbound. Both ships look to have the same ETA to go under the Bridge. Im sure a "port to port" passing has been arranged. I would like to hear that conversation. Then the Cosco slows down...almost stops and then seems to set down on the bridge. Im guessing, deducting, the Cosco is waiting for the SH Bright to pass thru while he gets his bearings.

BUT the SH BRIGHT passes on the WEST side of the WEST PIER?
This doesnt make any sense to me but I am not familiar with the SF BAY Pilot Rules. Let me assume the Rules state and the USCG and the Costco assumed the SH BRIGHT would pass under the bridge using the WEST CHANNEL between the center and west piers. Im assuming passing the west side of the west pier is very very unusual for any ship unless it is going to berth in that area...but the SH BRIGHT does not berth, it continues far past. I wonder what the clearance is? Wonder if the SH Bright isnt missing a antenna or two?

Right after the SH Bright passes, the Costco makes a hard left and heads toward the center of the East channel. The Costco pilot might have figured the SH BRIGHT went thru the WEST CHANNEL and he thinks he needs to move further WEST to line up with the east channel. Fog horns are blarring. Instruments are blurred. Language issues. Incompetant lookout can not see buoys and/or relate the charactoristics. Id bet money the tide is running out. Didnt the Bay area have a fairly good rainstorm just before this? (this implies more current than usual)

The AIS seems to indicate as soon as the Costco Pilot realizes he is lining up with the West Channel instead of the EAST, he figures he still has room to maneauver back to the East side. Again, this hard starboard turn could blur instruments a little. Might be interesting to find out if the USCG ordered him to. Still no excuse. Obviously he tried to maneauver into the East Channel and didnt make it. The damage is fairly minimal, he almost made it. The sad part is a frigging Tug is right there with him and could have assisted in stopping or maneauvering until things settled down. Notice the Revolution stops buy to inspect the center pier on his way back. Notice his track line waivers a little as he gets close. This indicates pea soup fog or he spilled his coffee. I think the Revolution belongs to Am Nav and it is a BIG BOY. If so, I will find out exactly what happened. I better leave it at that.

** BRIDGES IN THE FOG.
In daylight, use the VRM to measure the distance from a distinct promenent object to where you want to be when you go under the bridge. Write it down in your log book or chart.
Mark a waypoint on your GPS.
Dont assume this info is always going to be correct. Reduce speed to the ability to stop within the distance you can see. (this is a USCG Rule)

posted 11-20-2007 12:57 AM ET (US)            

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/11/19/MNUHTFETQ. DTL

It sounds like a bizarre three hours. I wish someone would post the transcript.

A Cascading Cavalcade of Calamities

Rep. Tom Lantos, D-San Mateo, chewed out USCG Rear Admiral Craig Bone, the Coast Guard district commander, and using forms of speech not heard since Spiro Agnew was Vice-President, said rather alliteratively that the response was "a cascading cavalcade of calamities." If that does not get your sound bite on the local media, what will? He also forecast that "some heads are going to have to roll."

Bizzaro-World

In totally opposite fashion, Admiral Bone described the actual oil spill response and clean-up as having "exceeded expectations" and used words like "fabulous" to describe the results. The amount of oil actually recovered was much higher than in most oil spills.

No one actually on board the COSCO BUSAN at the time of the accident was present or was interviewed by the congressional panel.

The high-profile politicos have announced they are turning the matter over to the inspector general for the Department of Homeland Security for further investigation. See you in a year.

posted 11-20-2007 02:54 AM ET (US)            

The SH Bright passed between the A and B pillars.
Interestingly, though its destination is Sacramento, to the
north, it anchors south of the Bay Bridge, possibly to clear
customs. It's probably not missing any antennas, it's not all
that big, and the traffic deck of the Bay Bridge doesn't
arch that much.

My charts show buoys about 300' out from either side of the D
pier. Based on the AIS data, the Cosco Busan had to have darn
near run over the south side buoy.

posted 11-20-2007 11:31 AM ET (US)            

Nav Rules for this area are Published in US Coast Pilot 7, Chapter 2. No time to look it up yet.

John Cota (the Pilot) used poor judgement.
For the 3rd time, the minute his radar went out he should have dogged that ship down til things were straightened out or the fog lifted. Several rules cover this.
End of story. It is going to take over a year to prove it.

I dont usually like to get into politcal debates, but
Rep. Tom Lantos, D-San Mateo, offends me. He is a fool to assume the spill response is set up like a Ambulance or Fire Dept.
If he wants to fund skimmers and response teams to stand by ready to go 24/7, the cost will rival the Iraq war.
This assumes if you are going to do this in SF, the Gov will want to do it in ALL PORTS. And the thing is, the concept is illogical when the solution is to adapt REGS that require back up Radara and competant English speaking crews in Foggy situations or...again, shut the ship down. Ban it from coming or going unless it complies.

A rock and a hard spot:
In Cota's defense, I dont think you will read about this in media... I mentioned earlier, he is under a lot of pressure to stay on schedule to avoid $$ losses, fog is not supposed to be an issue. It is possible, IF he had shut the Cosco Busan down under any Rule he would be chastized from the Costco Busan agents for delaying this ships schedule. He might have been deemed incompetant to use FOG as a excuse to delay it. Put it this way, Cota knows, (and the SF Political Contengent should also know) in the shippers mind, if FOG is a constant issue that delays ships in SF BAY, Shipping Agents may consider routing the ship or their products to Long Beach or Portland instead. Some of the schedules (ETA's) for container ships are laid out within a day or even the hour a year in advance. On one hand, each container is packed full of imported junk we could probably live without...on the other, they are packed with $20 bills. We all know, it rarely gets foggy in SF Bay.

posted 11-20-2007 01:47 PM ET (US)            

Anyway, it was good to see that a bunch of folks rushed to help on an individual level...just too bad their assistance was delayed.

posted 11-20-2007 02:29 PM ET (US)            

http://gcaptain.com/maritime/blog/ san-francisco-oil-spill-hearings-a-response-to-admiral-bone-uscg/ #comment-4006

posted 11-20-2007 02:44 PM ET (US)            

I wonder if the Cosco Busan's GPS was set to Datum NAD27 rather than Datum NAD83/WGS84? Nope, that would have had
them off the other way. And it's unlikely he had NAD27
charts/numbers (though those would pretty much run them into
the D pillar.

And there's also an F pillar that I missed on the shore of
Yerba Buena Island.

posted 11-20-2007 05:09 PM ET (US)            

Thank you for that pointer to the maritime blog. Since the day of the allision (another new word for the toolbox!), I've been wondering how this happened. The cynical side of me wonders if the real story will ever be told.

A factoid from one of the other threads on the blog caught my attention-

"The Cosco Busan is capable of carrying 5,500 20-foot containers, about half the capacity of the world’s largest container ships, which carry the equivalent of trains 70 miles long across oceans at 25 knots, or about 30 miles per hour."

That's a lot of stuff!

posted 11-20-2007 07:24 PM ET (US)            

'Time is Money'.Right!

posted 11-21-2007 09:13 AM ET (US)            

Yo Steve
You know, responding in fog is a great point. I can certainly understand how hard it would be to estimate the amount of spill with 300 ft visibility. But, what about darkness? Apparently the Tug Revolution followed the trail and made the initial estimate. Damage to the side of the ship clipped off fuel tank sounding tubes so it took some time to transfer fuel from those tanks into others and assess the exact total loss.

Tho the City of SF was left out of the initial report and response loop and making a big stink outa this, I am pretty impressed with what Ive read and seen from the Private responders and USCG cleanup operation down there. Dont underestimate the training and dedication of first tier responders.

How can oil spills be prevented?
Heavy oil tankers and barges have been required to have double skins for many years now, why arent fuel tanks in Cargo Ships?
I guess there are different levels of "catastrophies".
It is possible to route piping from ruptured fuel tanks directly into a hold, ballast tank or void that is not ruptured to reduce spill. Foriegn Engineers should be certified with spill training.

Nothing Ive read so far exonerates Capt Cota. I wish there was something relevant I could defend him with.
IMO, at this point, his action is the problem and prevention is the solution.

A couple of replies here & other forums seem sympathetic to Cota's economical and social delemma (between a rock and a hard place) and suggest Pilots need USCG Rules with "more teeth" to eliminate the conflict.
I believe the existing rules are sufficient in this situation. What they are saying sounds like the Immigration problem. We dont need more or different laws, we just need to enforce the laws we have now.

In Cota's defense, the collision and the spill was immediatly reported even tho he knew the consequence.

mk

posted 11-21-2007 12:52 PM ET (US)            

Here's a link to Admiral Bone's written testimony to the Subcommittee:

http://transportation.house.gov/Media/File/Coast%20Guard/20071119/ RADM%20Bone%20testimony.pdf

This contains some interesting facts, such as the size of the spill being initially reported as approximately 10 barrels.

Here's a link to the Subcommittee page for the hearing, where you can find links to the written testimony provided by other witnesses.

http://transportation.house.gov/hearings/hearingdetail.aspx?NewsID=397

posted 11-21-2007 06:40 PM ET (US)            

I'm not sure how the delay in reporting the size of the spill affected the recovery response. There is a fleet of recovery equipment 45 minutes away that is on call 24/7. By the look of the gash, most of the oil that spilled probably entered the water immediately.

Towboater,
All tankers built now are required to have double hulls. Though there are still ships grandfathered into not requiring them. The twin sister of the Exxon Valdez still operates in Alaskan and California waters.

posted 11-21-2007 09:55 PM ET (US)            

It would be interesting to know how much the San Francisco Bar Pilots Association charged the COSCO BUSAN for the services of its pilot, Capt. Cota. I would expect that the fee was probably in the neighborhood of $5,000 or more. Any additional data on this will be appreciated.

A pilot has a stressful job and works in dangerous conditions, but they are well compensated. I read in a professional maritime publication a few years ago that the average income of a pilot at a busy southern east coast U.S. port was $245,000 per year.

Given those sorts of fees and compensation, and given the compact reality of modern electronics, it ought to be entirely reasonable that a pilot could carry on board with him a lap top computer with electronic copies of all charts needed, as well as a GPS receiver which would display the real time vessel position on the lap top computer's display, overlaid on the charts. Such an arrangement is feasible on a 22-foot Boston Whaler, and it certainly ought to be workable on the bridge of a large ship. Having your own GPS and charts would eliminate any reliance on the vessel and its equipment.

posted 11-22-2007 01:10 AM ET (US)            

Under US and International regulations, a ship that size is required to have two working radars,one being an ARPA, AIS and GPS.

A ship getting underway can (very common) have black or brown outs due to large machinery being started, pumps,winches, etc. Radars are required to be on emergency power (generator) but not battery power. So the radar may lose power and restart with a standby timer of several minutes.

It is also common for Ship Owners to try to get every last minute of service from thier radar, and will try to hide a faulty radar until the ship gets to a "low cost" port to have it repaired or replaced.

Big ship radars are actually very difficult to support. The radar has a lot of IMO tests to pass to get certified, then out to a competitive market with low numbers of total sales. Now sail that radar to the ends of the earth and call the repair guy out at 2 AM on Christmas. Oh, since the owners tried to sneak into port with a bad radar, your call out is the same time the ship is in. They want to leave in 12 hours and you need parts. Good Luck. If you do fix it the owners will refuse the bill because it is too high. If you don't fix it the owners wil refuse the bill because YOU delayed the ship. If it is warranty, and you do get paid ( hello Brand R), It will useally be at an unrealistic rate and they will raplace your part ( no margin to cover the cost of keeping it in inventory).

But I am not bitter. Sorry got of on a bit of a rant.

It is common for radars to fail after shipyard periods due to power hits in the yard,dirt,damage or just being shut down for a long period. Warm radars are happy radars.

The IMO requires the radar ARPA to get its speed input from the speed log (speed though the water). Often the speed log is not working. The ARPA uses the Gyro for heading information. Without proper inputs, the radar's targets will have incorrect speeds and/or headings. If the radar hiccups often it needs to have its gyro reset to match the actual gyro heading. The Pilot would have difficulty predicting the ships movements if relying soley on the radar.

The AIS uses GPS speed (SOG) with the speed log as an optional input depending on feasiblity during installation.
The AIS and GPS locations are referenced to known points on the ship. A misalignment is not uncommon.

A chart plotter is subject to the same ills as both the AIS and the Radar.

If this ship has been recently in the shipard, then it would have been required to have been fitted with a Voyage Data Recorder (VDR). The VDR is the seagoing version of the "Black Box" and if fitted properly and working, will give a good picture of what really happend.

You can see that anyone on the bridge of a strange ship in the fog, could get confused using systems with potentially very different frames of referance. Then toss in a flaky radar and half a dozen sceaming chinese......

posted 11-22-2007 07:38 AM ET (US)            

Capt Coto is blaming electrical issues.
thx roloaddict for confirming that it is likely.

One of the Forum members (above link) commented that the entire Cosco Bridge crew "changed out" just prior to sailing and this is very unusual for ALL of the crew to do this. He implies that no-one on the Bridge was familiar with the electronics and condition of them. Capt Coto is using this and language barriers as his primary excuse.
I argue the minute Coto was aware of all this he should have dropped anchor under several existing rules.

Pilots Assn...
I understand the SF Pilots Assn is set up very similar to the Col Riv Pilots. I once studied to become a Pilot. My Mentor was the President of the CR Pilots and prodding me like crazy. He died of Cancer at 55 (over 20 years ago). I was tired of working weeks at a time on the boats and coming home a stranger. I lost my inspiration, not my confidence as to whether or not I could handle a ship.
This job came up (home every night) and I ended up buying the Tug. Now there are several guys Ive broke in that are Pilots. If Buck (my mentor) was alive today, I would know the inside story but Im sure he would hold me to secrecy. Pilots are a very tight knit group. 90% of them are former Tug Skippers. It isnt easy for me to point fingers at Coto so soon. Ive done lots and lots of reading and I cant find any reason not to.

There is a lot I dont know about todays Pilots setup, here is a sketch. Please dont quote me as a reference.
Back in Bucks days, you passed the exam, got in line and the ASSN would vote whether or not you became a Pilot. Today, all of your qualifications (not experiance) are given points for this n that. Applicant with the highest point total is next in line. There has been a LOT OF COMPLAINING about excluding experiance from the formula. I may know every inch of the River and handle huge barge tows or Berthing for many years without incident but it doesnt mean shit to the Board. (compared to prior) Today you get extra points for passing basic basket weaving in Community College. I think redeeming coupons on the back of Cheerios box gives you a few points. I will vouch the guys I know that have gone in recently are all good men who will be fine Pilots. I know a couple of Skippers who are just as competant that didnt make it because they missed the 0700 Volleyball Practices.

They start out a lower wage for one year. 6 months as a observer and 6 months of being observed. Basically, the Rookie sits in the passenger seat and watches the Capt for 6 mo. Then the Capt sits in the passenger seat and watches him for 6 mo. Then he earns unlimited tonnage. Tanker endorsement takes 5 years without incident.

Right now the Pilots on the Col River are earning over $300k gross and work on call for 2 week shifts. Each Pilot is like a Private Contractor for the Assn. The way I understand it, they insure themselves but also have some kind of "marriage" with each ships underwriter (Lloyds).
Length, draft (tonnage), cargo and mileage are all factors as to how much the Steamship Agents pay them. When Buck was Pres, this income went into a pot and Pilots were salaried from that. The ASSN has many investments all over the State. I think every Pilot has a car with hidden keys parked at almost every terminal.

Id guess a Pilot averages 1 ship per 2 days depending on volume. Not much more or they have too many Pilots. So, .5 of 132 days = 66/300k = right around $5k net for the Pilot, Id guess at least 15% above that for the Assn. Jim is pretty close. Im pretty sure the State sets the rates. I dont think Ive said anything here that isnt common knowledge in fact, again, could be wrong today. Im just giving you a little lay of the land here, not written in stone.

But Im getting the feeling that this incident is deemed so horrible the Public and Berkley Politicians are lining up to make substantial changes... Again, I warn SF Bay, if you make too much of a stink the Agents will simply route the Costco to another Port. And if any one of you fear that, then you are feeling exactly what Capt Coto felt when he cast off with a crew of monkeys on the bridge.

I think the problem has already been recognized AND SOLVED. This is a expensive HEADS UP for all Capts, Pilots, Agents, Response teams... the risks of this happening again are BIG TIME compared to continuing to consider economic issues in the exact same context.
...hey, I said it before, I say again, if a vessel needs assistance, do what you can but DONT FOR ANY REASON FEEL THAT YOU MUST RENDER ASSISTANCE due to any law or peer pressure or thoughts of becoming a HERO (finally, I said it).

Again, I respect a decision not to render assistance just as I would have respected Capt Coto's decision to drop anchor. He tried to be a HERO for economic reasons and now he and the environment are paying a HUGE price. Settle down Berkley, the existing laws are fine, the responders did a great job, we need to change the mind set that allows Foriegn Shipping Agents profit margins dominate environmental common sense. Remove Capitolist Greed (Coto's mind set) from the formula that protects our environment. Im pretty confident every licenced Skipper recognizes this a lot more today than prior.

How do you make common sense a law?
Going back to the current Pilots qualification of a point based system vrs experiance, now Im not so sure which is better. A snot nosed brat out of Annapollis might have more dicipline to recognize that A, B and C arent "textbook" & ORDER the Capt to drop anchor...rather than a old salt saying, hell with C, no problem, I can handle it.

I mentioned my Mentor earlier. One of the biggest things he taught me was, tho the job of running a Tug seems routine, each day, each landing is different depending on the weather. And we approached each job like that, with a open mind knowing me will probably need to make adjustments according to the conditions. Before working with Buck (4 years) I had worked with plenty of Skippers who had what I call "pre concieved notions" of how the job was going to go...and when it didnt go the way he figured it would, things just got worse. Sounds like Coto was a little bit like this. Buck was way ahead of the game, he was easy and fun to work for, I dont think we cracked a pile the whole time...I miss him.

mk

posted 11-22-2007 11:51 AM ET (US)            

They give the rest of us a view of the "real world" faced by these pilots, the operators of container ports, and ship owners, all of whom keep the flow of goods open to the rest of us around the world.

And it is the rest of us who buy all this stuff that fuels the world economy, which, in turn keeps us employed and able to enjoy recreational pursuits like boating.

Its a complicated world we live in, isn't it?

posted 12-07-2007 03:55 PM ET (US)            

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/12/07/MN97TPRGE. DTL&tsp=1

posted 12-11-2007 08:54 PM ET (US)            

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b309/elaelap/Oilcleanup41.jpg

And here are some folks who take a proactive approach to environmental destruction. This shot, taken the same day up at the UC Berkeley campus a couple of miles from the marina, shows some of the Oak Grove tree sitters and one of their arboreal dwellings. They've been up there for exactly one year trying to prevent the loss of a grove of ancient oaks which the university wants to cut down to expand the football training facility:

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b309/elaelap/OakGrove89.jpg

Happy Green Holidaze, Whalers...there's gotta be a better way!

Tony

posted 12-12-2007 10:51 AM ET (US)            

Not to diminish what the volunteers are doing, but personal protection-wise all they really need is a pair of nitrile gloves. Seriously, PFDs to walk on the shore at the Berkeley marina?

posted 12-13-2007 10:08 AM ET (US)            

The Berkeley experience somehow engenders--in some folks anyway--the desire to put ones body on the line in furtherance of ones beliefs. Rather than just talking the environmental talk, dozens of students and non-students have successfully blocked destruction of a grove of ancient oak trees...big deal, eh? Better that they should be studying for their MBAs, so they can join the multi-national corporate rape of our planet.

Some humans would call what they're doing "just plain guts."

posted 12-13-2007 11:04 AM ET (US)            

You know, these young people give me hope, and I feel sorry for those who smugly mock their efforts. What a dull, listless, existence it must be without a dash of crazy idealism (especially for a young guy like you, Mobjack). Oh well.

posted 12-13-2007 12:33 PM ET (US)            

You may or may not know that a similar group of mostly young folks, rationally and idealistically (one can intellectually, spiritually & emotionally multi-task in this life of ours, you know) committed to struggling against apartheid, protested in various ways for over one year against the University of California's stock holdings in South Africa, finally forced divestisure; and their protest spread nationwide, contributing greatly to the fall of that country's apartheit government. Earlier, Berkeley students led the nationwide 'free speech movement' struggle, demanding the right to organize on-campus support for the civil rights movement.

These aren't your stereotype 'hippies', Mobjack, kickin' back in their pads smoking ganja and listening to Indie CDs. These are gutty, thoughtful, incredibly well-informed individuals living life to the fullest, hoping to change the world for the better, and I for one respect them greatly.

posted 12-13-2007 01:14 PM ET (US)            

There are buildings here in La Jolla, Native american heritage and burial sites, associated with the Chancellor's residence. The city of San Diego has deemed them protected and yet the University continues with plans to build a new structure there.

The planet is in crisis, and the "deniers" may tell you otherwise, but it is every man for himself and the trees, when it comes to protecting the planet.

posted 12-13-2007 01:28 PM ET (US)            

However, it is precisely the efforts of those on the fringe, which I believe, keep the momentum and attention on the issue so the "middle of the roaders" and mainstream opposers can do the fancy footwork to effect a change.

posted 12-13-2007 02:24 PM ET (US)         

in 257 years a group of activists from UC Berkley have set up camp at the 50 yard line of the ancient UC Berkley football field in an effort to stop the destruction of the historical and archaeologically significant site.

UC Berkley plans on destroying the ancient football field in order to build a snow removal equipment maintenance and storage facility to house the equipment necessary to fight the worsening snowfalls which are a result of the impending global cooling crisis.

posted 12-13-2007 03:07 PM ET (US)            

These trees, as far as trees are concerned are nowhere near ancient. They were planted on UC Berkeley property, by UC Berkeley in 1923...84 years ago. That's about three hundred years short of ancient status.

Some believe them to be a war memorial for some reason...neither site I read was clear on the history behind this.

They do not want to remove them to build a football field, they want to remove them to build a $100 million dollar athletic training facility for all of the 15 teams that use the stadium.

From what I can see, it looks like there are about forty or fifty trees in question here, not exactly a forest. The University has apparently agreed to plant THREE trees on campus for every ONE tree they remove to build the training center. (sounds like a pretty green mitigation solution to me)

Tony, this is the type of ignorance that I was talking about earlier. How many times a day do you think the people behind that little insurrection use the word "ancient" as a glorifying adjective to decribe those trees? How many of those kids in the trees do you think actually believe that they are rising to defend some hallowed landmark of antiquity? I don't know what the viable lifespan of a live oak is, but I can tell you that some of the trees in New Orleans that went down during Katrina were well over four hundred, and I have personally been to one in Texas that is said to be well over six hundred years old. An 84 year old live oak is nothing special, come to the south and you will find them by the hundreds of thousands. Furthermore, UC Berkeley happens to own that property, and has the right to do whatever they want with those trees. You as an attorney, should have a very clear grasp of that.
I mean, looking at the pictures, the oak grove is very pretty, but these people seem to think that it was created that way in the dawn of time. That grove was created by MAN not all that long ago, and now MAN is going to remove it to create something else, which I am sure will be very nice as well, plus they are willing to make it a triple gain for trees on campus as part of the deal. What is wrong with that? They are not talking about clearcutting a redwood forest here.

posted 12-13-2007 05:14 PM ET (US)            

The environmental impact of cutting 38 trees as far as air quality is probably so small as to be unmeasurable. To use the logic they espouse on their website about the Grove being an ecosystem, I could say that my yard is an ecosystem and every time I cut my grass I am destroying it.
Of course you are right that the saplings will be making less oxygen than the mature trees, but it will only take about fifty years to rectify that(a drop in the bucket in tree time), and even then the measurable increase/benefit will be microscopic.

Don't get me wrong, I think they are pretty too. I have trees on my property and on my parents farm that I would say I think of as old friends; they have been there for two and three centuries and have always been part of my life.

posted 12-13-2007 05:41 PM ET (US)            

As far as whether UC should build the facility, I will leave that up to them and Californians in general. My tax dollars are not at stake.
As far as fair and balanced, I googled the treesitters, read a site that seemed to be basic news reporting on the subject, then I read the "savetheoaks" site, gleaned what I could in the time allotted. I am not trying to come off biased about it, I am taking the facts I found on both those sites and applying my own knowledge of forestry and environmental BMPs to the equation. I don't think any news organization is fair and balanced ,they all have an agenda.
I also saw the clip interviewing the one tree sitter who fell out of the tree, and is trying to blame UC for it, because it is unsafe. Never even considered that it might be his own damn fault for being up a tree in the first place. Classic "victim" logic.

posted 12-13-2007 06:39 PM ET (US)            

Here in San Diego, our explosive and poorly managed growth and outreach into rural areas has caused many problems. Reduction of endemic and indigenous animal habitats. This leads to more human and wildlife encounters, which sometimes have deadly outcomes. We have encroached severely.

I came up with this whacky idea. What if we required developers to rehabilitate abandoned properties, all over town, reducing spread? What if, for the 30,000 square feet of commercial space that they would like to create, in an undeveloped area, they have to commit to the restoration of an empty, long neglected building? I suspect we'd see a real reduction in new development and a gentrification of these long forgotten buildings.

There was an large, old, battered industrial building called the M.I.F.-Malleable Iron Fittings Co. in my hometown of Branford, CT, on the Branford River. (Andy Gere's wife hails from there as well). They went in there, sold the old bricks as "vintage" and there was a huge demand for old brick. They built residential, commercial and restaurant space there. It beautified the area, led to other improvements in the area and required no encroachment of undeveloped land.

posted 12-13-2007 09:04 PM ET (US)            

Either you adapt to the changing enviornment or you perish.

posted 12-13-2007 10:23 PM ET (US)            

you are quite correct, the environment has been changing for millions of years. What sets the current trend apart from environmental evolutions of the past, is the very FAST rate at which changes are occurring and the even faster rate, at which species are disappearing.

Disappearing=perish.

Don't we want things to survive for our future? You have a 16 y/o son, do you not want him to experience and see the opportunities and wildlife that you saw?

posted 12-13-2007 10:36 PM ET (US)            

Would you want to have dinosaurs walking around today? For me text book pictures of dinosaurs is good enough for me.

Speaking of dinosaurs, they leaked all over the San Francisco Bay.

Warren

posted 12-14-2007 11:57 AM ET (US)            

It may be so, but we don't hear a lot about new species development. You rarely hear about the identification of some previously unseen life from the Amazon.

Conversely, you do hear a lot about mutations attributed to contaminants that have permeated our waterways. Two-headed frogs are big in the Great Lakes states.

I think that the strain on the planet is reducing species in large, unprecedented numbers, but again what is concerning, is the very fast rate at which they are disappearing.

posted 12-14-2007 02:03 PM ET (US)            

I am a Contractor for Weyerhauser and Longview Fibre Company. Two of the largest private landowners in the NW.

As Mobjack mentions, TODAYS logging techniques and environmental issues are far better than previous decades.

In the middle 80's, there was a big huff about spotted owls and old growth habitat disappearing. As it turns out, the spotted owl also lives in "reprod" (tree plantations) and it is a very reclusive bird wherever it lives.

One of the biggest mistakes the tree industry made occured after WW 1 and WW2. Due to the industrial revolution going on, trees were harvested and nobody went back to replant. Similar circumstances as the RR's wiping out Buffalo to insure the rail lines would be clear at night tho they tell you they used the meat to feed the crews.
We make mistakes, we learn, life goes on.

Ok, after the Korean War and to this day the Industry puts as much emphasis on replanting as they do harvest quota's. In the 80s there was a shortage of 2nd growth (50 year ol trees) and it is true that old growth stands were threatened. It was a tough time for the Industry, many small mills bit the dust. Survivors were able to get by by THINNING and selective logging.

The trees that were replanted in the 40s/50s are now going on 60 years old. This is a average 18-24" dia tree around 120 ft tall that is perfect for shovels to load. The lumber grade is sized and either sent to a mill or shipped overseas. The residual is chipped to make paper...there is very little waste. What is left on the ground decomposes and provides nutrients to the eco system. Photosynthisis (sunlight) grows the fresh green grass Deer and Elk thrive on.

WE DONT EVEN WANT OLD GROWTH TREES ANYMORE. NOBODY has the capacity to handle them. There is very little feed for habitat to survive under the old growth canopies. I salvaged a straight grained 150 ft x 48" dia rooted Doug Fir out of the River Channel the other day that seeded before Columbus dicovered the West. It is almost useless junk because nobody has the facilities to cut it into lumber. I do have a hydraulic log splitter.

I was asked to submit a bid to thin out the OLD GROWTH in a National Refuge (Long Island) because the old growth trees are so thick they are blocking out the sun and literally choking themselves to death and ruining wildlife habitat. No different than weeding your garden. My equipment would be able to deliver environmentally sensitive logging tools to/from the island but the job is temporary and I am going to stay where I am in favor of the longevity. Again, the 2nd growth timber has more value than this old growth and thus, this makes the job VERY expensive for the FWS & Taxpayers. I think they tabled it.

As for Berkley, I dont fear their debate near as much as I fear the power of todays MEDIA and the Greedy people who use it to control and manipulate us. Sometimes I wonder if live sound bites arent more destructive to the Social Environment than our forefathers 10 cent newpapers.

mk

posted 12-14-2007 03:01 PM ET (US)            

Species becoming extinct now faster than any previous time? I think not....

"Unprecedented" numbers? Not at all....

posted 03-28-2008 03:58 PM ET (US)            

Looks like the other big ship stayed tied up in the thick fog.
Cosco Busan went out. CRUNCH!

posted 03-30-2008 07:42 PM ET (US)            

quote:

---

[Rear Adm. Craig Bone, the Coast Guard commander for California,] said investigators are "particularly alert to the speed this vessel proceeded on" which officials have said was possibly too fast. The ship was going 11 knots before slowing as it approached the bridge.

---

Here is a excerpt from the navigation rules:
-------
RULE 6
SAFE SPEED
Every vessel shall at all times proceed at a safe speed so that she can take proper and effective action to avoid collision and be stopped within a distance appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions.

In determining a safe speed the following factors shall be among those taken into account:

(a) By all vessels:

--The state of visibility

------

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/rules/Rule06.htm

posted 03-30-2008 09:34 PM ET (US)            

Probably shouldn't be found in violation of Rule 6 as it is not applicable. The ColRegs were written to prevent collisions at sea between vessels. Not to prevent idiots from getting underway in zero vis and ramming bridges (allisions).

Was the guy traveling too fast for the conditions - very likely. Did they make a mistake getting underway in zero vis? Hindsight says yes. Wonder how many time mariners do dumb things and get away with it.

posted 04-09-2008 12:32 AM ET (US)            

Executive summary: Abbott and Costello go to sea.

posted 04-09-2008 11:19 PM ET (US)            

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24032179/

posted 04-22-2008 09:36 PM ET (US)            

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24263452/

posted 04-24-2008 01:10 PM ET (US)            

Capt Cota was offered 6 years in jail.
He refused.

RUMOR
Tho he is expected to be convicted of something, if he is given jail time, it is rumored the SF Pilots Assn and USCG Licenced Tug Skippers are going to shut down the SF Bay shipping industry. Might include the Columbia River and Puget Sound (this includes Ferry boat Capts).

I agree.

What are they going to do, fire us all? If so, who do they plan on replacing us with? I hope the threat wakes some people up. Dont underestimate it. He isnt the only one who made a mistake here. Punish him, PLEASE dont put him in jail.
Revoke or restrict his licence, let the Underwriters take care of the liabilities, give him a felony offense with appropriate probation and move on Frisko.

mk

posted 04-25-2008 01:52 PM ET (US)            

Again, the entire Busan Bridge Crew changed out just before sailing. Cota did not recognize (he should have) that there were instrument/commo problems until too late.

The ship/crew/cargo is inspected on arrival (US Customs). I think the helm and Bridge Crew should be Documented within a USCG Data base, inspected and deemed competant (As a USCG Pilot Rule) to sail PRIOR to leaving as well.

posted 12-03-2013 07:13 AM ET (US)            

quote:

---

Shortly after the accident, California's Board of Pilot Commissioners began steps to revoke Cota's pilot's license. Instead, he voluntarily retired as a pilot in 2008, and now draws a pension of $228,864 a year, funded through fees on the shipping industry.

---

posted 12-06-2013 06:56 PM ET (US)            

It's different now, but it's still an insiders guild apprenticeship position.

Remember that the Pilot only offers advice. The Captain has the final word and holds the ultimate responsibility for the safety of his vessel.

Dave