posted 02-08-2008 02:27 PM ET (US)        

http://www.bymnews.com/news/newsDetails.php?id=22253

Way cool!!!!

posted 02-10-2008 09:36 PM ET (US)            

What makes them extra quiet, and what makes the flat black paint "technical"?

I smell the marketing department spin meisters at work, trying to sell the unusual elements of a military spec outboard as special features.

Army Surplus Jeeps:
No doors- so you don't risk slamming your finger in the door.
No top- perfect for the nature lover
No trunk space- so you don't buy too many groceries, keeping you slim and trim.
Olive drab paint- no need to wash it, it looks dirty no matter what!

posted 02-11-2008 08:38 PM ET (US)            

Anyone have an idea of price?

Dave

posted 02-11-2008 11:08 PM ET (US)            

Diesel is not one of the fuel choises.

posted 02-12-2008 10:06 AM ET (US)            

Chuck"""""

posted 02-12-2008 01:28 PM ET (US)            

Nonsense, it'll be a perfect fuel for these. Do you *really* think that they would sell an engine that you cannot buy fuel for at the marina?

"Uh.... yeah.... we're gonna sell an engine that only runs on *aviation fuel*...."

Not.

Diesel is so close to Jet Fuel that they fully interchange (trust me on this: I earn my living as a test pilot and am not making this up, and have operated many jet engines over the years on Diesel, including PT-6's that are specified for agricultural diesel for use in crop dusting aircraft).

Diesel is as clean as you make it (I have a fuel polishing system on my Trawler that recirculates my fuel thru filters that are far smaller than anything that is needed, so clean is as clean does). Does anyone really think that Diesel is "dirty"? Seems like there would be a lot of clogged injectors in dumptrucks then.... ;-).

This will be a super nice engine for many places in the world where gas is rare and diesel/kero/heating oil/etc is common. Great news!

Dave

.

posted 02-12-2008 06:14 PM ET (US)            

You would not think so if you tried to run it in a spark ignited two stroke outboard. Just a little different than a jet engine.

Is diesel dirty compared to Jet A. YES, although the new low sulfer diesels are better. Not talking dirt that can be filtered, talking about combustion deposits and soot.

posted 02-12-2008 07:07 PM ET (US)            

Our opposed piston two cycle Fairbanks Morse diesel generators, OTOH, were not able to operate on the jet fuel.

In Haiti during our little incursion in 1994 we were able to operate our 6.2 litre Chevrolet turbo diesels on Jet A. We finally learned to add some crankcase oil to the tanks to provide a little extra lubricity for the injection pumps and injectors. Worked well but they really seemed to like diesel fuel much better.

posted 02-12-2008 08:09 PM ET (US)            

Uhhh.... I bet that running JP-5 (AVCAT for you Brits) in a spark ingnited 2 stroke engine isn't going to be too impressive either, unless it's a multi fuel engine, but naturally if it *is* a multifuel engine, it'll not know the difference between any of the fuel oils. At this level, Fuel is fuel... but what the heck do I know anyhow, having done propulsion engineering flight test for jet engines for a living for a while.

"Is diesel dirty compared to Jet A. YES, although the new low sulfer diesels are better. Not talking dirt that can be filtered, talking about combustion deposits and soot."

If you say so..... ;-).

But seems to me that MGO (Marine Gasoil), which is what we buy as "Diesel" for our boats is just #2 Distillate fuel oil, exactly the same as #2 fuel oil, and is virtually identical to JP-8. This is NOT found aboard USN ships so our friendly SEAL's are not gonna use it in their new Evinrudes.

The nice and light #2 that we lovingly call "Home Heating Oil", "Pump Diesel Oil, and "#2 Fuel Oil" is all the same-same. It's also NOT found aboard USN ships. Guess what" SEAL's aren't gonna be using it either.

Shipboard JP-5 is just #5 Distillate Fuel Oil, which is really *junk oil* (IE: is also known as "Residual Oil #5"). We use it on our carrier based jets because it's less flammable than JP-8, for shipboard fire prevention reasons. Trust me: If something will run on JP-5, it'll run on *anything*. And, not for nothing... My bet is that this is exactly what the SEAL's will be using in their boat engines, as it's the only light oil found aboard USN ships. The rest of the stuff is all heavy bunker oil.

Dave

.

posted 02-12-2008 09:08 PM ET (US)            

Dave: I'll bet that while JP-8, diesel, and home fuel oil
share a common basic stock, they differ in the additives.

posted 02-12-2008 10:28 PM ET (US)            

"Dave: I'll bet that while JP-8, diesel, and home fuel oil
share a common basic stock, they differ in the additives."

Very slightly even there though. Some of the background of this needs explaination: As you know (and others will know now), I own and operate a fleet of 6 (at present) surplus military jet aircraft that I lease to the DOD (think MiG's at Top Gun and you'll have the basic idea). As "Experimental Aircraft" we do not need to legally use certified aviation fuels, and there are potential cost saving of up to $2.00/gallon if we could use other fuels (not insubstantial, as I *personally* buy over 50,000 gallons of fuel a year for the jets). I hired a few folks who deal with fuels, and we asked what the technical issues would be to run red (dyed) Diesel in the jets, and to run "road" (undyed low sulpher) Diesel in the jets, and to run K1 kerosine in the jets, etc. This lead to an entire long and drawn out engineering study on the topic, as it was of interest to a lot of other people flying experimental jets (there are more of them than you might think). THe results were presented by a major fuel company to the 2003 Classic Jet Aircraft Association Convention, and the bottom line is that *for all practical purposes* the fuels are all so similar as to be *functionally* identical. Yes, some have more sulpher, some more phosphorus, some a little more lubricant oil added, etc., but in the end.... it's all just fuel oil.

MiG's now run on red dyed diesel.... and I'll buy one of these engines and will not think twice about using it with the fuel on my Trawler. I hate having gasoline aboard. Bottom line? I want one for the exact same reason the Navy wants them: No gasoline aboard ship.

Best,

Dave

.

posted 02-12-2008 11:54 PM ET (US)            

So for the military, diesel for emegency, and for the consumer motor, diesel not even listed.

Could that possibly mean that BRP thinks that a spark ignited two stroke outboard does not like to run on diesel.

posted 02-13-2008 09:11 AM ET (US)            

A cautionary note on the use of diesel in your MIGs.

While operating our J-79s on diesel in Latin America our host nation decided to provide us with Venezulan diesel without testing and without informing us. The reason was that the fuel was much cheaper than diesel from any where else.

As it turned out the diesel contained high levels of vanadium. The vanadium subsquently began plating out on our combustors, nozzles, and power turbine buckets. This reduced our TBOH on those components by about 40% and greatly increased our operating costs.

Watch out for that cheap Venezulan fuel. It can cost more than the price indicates.

posted 02-13-2008 09:52 AM ET (US)            

I think that when you buy Diesel, you need to know EXACTLY what you are buying. It's a generic term. There are three different types available at the commercial fishing dock where I buy my fuel, and one more type available by tank-truck delivered to my Trawler with a hose. Each is slightly different. One is essentially JP-5, and another is essentially JP-8. One is essentially #2 fuel oil with red dye. "Diesel" is really a pretty generic term. I know *exactly* what I buy (for both the airplanes and my boat), as at a $250K budget a year for fuel (and for human life in the jets), we're not guessing what we're burning, we are sending out lot samples for analysis. EACH refined lot is different. We're also adding some additives and do tear down and borescope inspections of the burner can areas of the engines, and they are as clean as a whistle, with grey ash and no coking or metallic deposits on the blades. If it's good to go there, it's good to go anywhere.

Methinks that some folks would rather argue than learn. Frankly... the term "Diesel" is irrelevent and is non-definitive. Maybe I should have said "I'll buy one so I can share the COMMON FUEL used on my Trawler with the outboard". If I said I ran my Trawler on JP-5 would you be happy? Because that's exactly what I do: It's just not called that at the fishing dock...... ;-)

Best,

Dave Sutton

posted 02-13-2008 09:58 AM ET (US)            

Quite so. The ITT of the jets in the combustion cans is close enough to the melting point of metals as to make this a potential problem as you state. This is why we send out lot samples and track the lots. The fuel is intermixed at the point of storage locally, but after each load is dropped, we take a sample and send it out before clearing the new "mix" for use.

Not an issue in piston engines, as the temperatures are low enough, and there are some additives (Alcor TCP) that completely eradicate the metals issue for spark ignition engines anyhow. The additives keep the stuff soft so it clears outta the engine, as opposed to making a hard deposit that ends up either fouling plugs or sticking valves.

Dyne down south? Flying a J-79 now, actually. Look up the Kfir and you'll see what in. Love the engine.

Dave

.

posted 02-13-2008 11:35 AM ET (US)            

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_oil

posted 02-13-2008 11:38 AM ET (US)            

Here's some good info on petroleum products:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_oil

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/classification-gas-oil-d_165.html

posted 02-13-2008 07:28 PM ET (US)            

J-79 = reliable, responsive, repairable in the field. Very nice engines and very tough, too.

posted 02-13-2008 08:17 PM ET (US)            

But it beats the heck out of wondering whether your whaler
has a bilge full of ice.

posted 02-14-2008 08:29 AM ET (US)            

If the E-tec MFE motor could burn diesel, BRP marketing would have that choise on top in bold letters for the consumer version. (and maybe thats where the disagreement has come in.) In the industry of military and consumer MFE's, the generic term "diesel" is #2 road diesel. The kind that Joe Whaler would fill up his Classic Whaler on a trailer at the gas station on the way to the boat ramp.

So getting back on topic, I will state that since BRP does not list "diesel" as a fuel, it will NOT burn #2 road diesel.

posted 02-14-2008 08:31 AM ET (US)            

Probably not, but I do likely know more about fuel than you do, and (more importantly) I have a positive attitude towards the new engine in that I've already contacted my local dealer to order one.. ;-).

Two sets of folks in the world. Thems that say "Wilbur, that'll never fly" and thems that say "Here, let me roll up my sleeves and help you with that". On internet forums, there's thems that offer value, and thems that don't. Pick which of those folks you're gonna be. I did, and my motto is "Add Value or Silence'.

Educating folks about the differences between what fuels are what adds value, and using examples to make the comparison is the way that education is done. You can either read and learn, or not. Your choice. Me? Id' rather learn.

Adapt, Move, or Die, so said Darwin.

Smile,

Dave

posted 02-14-2008 08:34 AM ET (US)            

Nonsense.

If it'll burn JP-5, it'll burn truck-stop Diesel.

posted 02-14-2008 08:38 AM ET (US)            

http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2007/09/28/polaris-delivers-atv-with-multi-fuel-patriot-engine/

posted 02-14-2008 08:40 AM ET (US)            

Probably not, but I do likely know more about fuel than you do, and (more importantly) I have a positive attitude towards the new engine in that I've already contacted my local dealer to order one.. ;-).

Two sets of folks in the world. Thems that say "Wilbur, that'll never fly" and thems that say "Here, let me roll up my sleeves and help you with that". On internet forums, there's thems that offer value, and thems that don't. Pick which of those folks you're gonna be. I did, and my motto is "Add Value or Silence'.

Smile,

Dave

posted 02-14-2008 09:59 AM ET (US)            

If it'll burn JP-5, it'll burn truck-stop Diesel.

Dave""""

And that is where I disagree.

If you had ever developed and calibrated a DI, spark ignited MFE, you would not make that statement.

You had posted that you wanted to buy one and run it on "diesel". I was only trying to point out what BRP themselves quote on their engine. (I did not roll up my sleeve, but was trying to help you out)

If you can get one of the LISTED fuels for the motor, you'll be fine.
If you try to run #2 road diesel, you will most likely be disappointed.

Wilber, I'm sure it will fly fine, just not on #2.

Just trying to help.

Big smile...

posted 02-14-2008 10:03 AM ET (US)            

My guess is that the switch is two position, one way for gasoline, and one for "other"

All the aviation fuels run vary much the same in an MFE. Its the non AV fuels that are the problem.

posted 02-14-2008 10:49 AM ET (US)            

"""If they are otto and "road diesel" is a more efficient fuel than gasoline,""""

Not sure exatly what you mean here.

The diesel CYCLE is in genera more efficient than the otto cycle. Not nessesarly the fuel.

"Diesel" fuels have a higher energy density than gasoline.

The big problem with "diesel" v/s AV fuels is the impurities in the fuel (sulfer being a big one)

posted 02-14-2008 08:37 PM ET (US)            

Uhh.... Yup. And guess what they run them on down at the NAS? You would think that with all that jet fuel there they would use it, but since they don't pump jet fuel at the air sea rescue boat facility, they run, well you know what they run.... ;-). BTW, they run the same stuff in their MFE diving compressor sets too.

But WTFDIK?

posted 02-14-2008 10:42 PM ET (US)            

(who woulda thunk it?)

Dave

posted 02-15-2008 09:59 AM ET (US)            

Yup. Tomorrow afternoon I'll walk down the ASR Boat dock down on base and ask the guys how it's going... ;-)

There's a difference between "hardware in front of you" and "a computer in front of you". They have a half dozen of these things running daily here, so methinks I'll kisy ask for a ride tomorrow AM and see for myself and talk to the 'Bosn there to see how many hours they have run and generally "howgoesit". I never bothered to take one for a ride before because I never thought they would be sold to the public. I *know* that they are running on Diesel and have been since they arrived on station, thus my great amusement each time you have stated that they "won't" run on it. When I was going thru aeronautics, one professor did a power to weight ratio analysis of a bumblebee and proved with calculus that they cannot fly. But... remember that theory is only valid insofar as it reflects reality. Ya'lls theory is refuted when I look outta the window and see 'em crusing up and down the river. I suspect they are looking for fish, but they claim to be looking for terrorists.

What do I know anyhow though... I'm just a dumb test pilot. But, BTW, I have 'a little' insight on how military testing is done, and trust this: By the time it gets to "Test", we already KNOW it works fine. It's just then a matter of verifying the numbers and fine tuning things. Manufacturers don't submit items for "Test" that they have not already validated. When the Navy "Tests" at this level, we are just verifying the fact that the manufacturers have sent us something that already works. This is not "experimental or developmental testing". It's COTS ("Commercial Off The Shelf") acceptance test of an already fully developed item.

posted 02-15-2008 12:47 PM ET (US)            

I sure looks to me like Dave S. has done quite a bit of research on what burns in his jets, but arguing what works in a direct injected 2-stroke with the guy who helped engineer this:

http://www.mercurygovsales.com/technology/optimaxjp.php

is really great :)

Keep it up guys, contine telling the Merc engineer he doesn't know what he is talking about :) :)

posted 02-15-2008 03:47 PM ET (US)            

Too funny:

A Merc engineer? Pardon me for saying so, but he doesn't work for the company (Evirude) who (A) actually builds the engine that *does* run on Diesel, and (B) actually *got the contract* to sell them to the Navy.... ;-).

That contract is worth millions.... millions that's not going to Mercury. There's no consolation money for second place here.

Dave

.

posted 02-15-2008 05:16 PM ET (US)            

quote:

---

The PCM 03 processor provides the ability to optimize fuel, spark timing, and knock control for each cylinder, enhancing engine running quality and performance. The PCM 03 processor also operates an electronic multipoint lubrication system. This reliable system delivers precise amounts of oil where and when it is needed. It also recognizes and allows the use of JP5, JP8, and Jet A fuel. In extreme emergencies, the OptiMax JP will run on gasoline or even diesel fuel for a short time period

---

posted 02-15-2008 05:29 PM ET (US)            

http://i29.tinypic.com/vpkaao.jpg

posted 02-22-2008 05:00 PM ET (US)            

To be fair, it barely ran, had virtually no power, and sputtered black smoke the whole way. He had to replace the fuel filter and all the injectors after the fact, as well as piece back together his ego.

posted 02-22-2008 07:20 PM ET (US)            

This generator was very difficult to start but after a snort of ether it fired up but it was a mess belching excessive gray smoke and running so roughly that it lierally walked around the shop floor before being shut down.

WE spent the next two days trying to determine what was wrong with this engine. After all the logical things we began to try the illogical ones. It was anightmare!

Long story short, my newest diesel mechanic trainee while wiping up some spilled fuel from injector testing commented that the fuel sure smelled funny. That engine fuel tank had somehow been filled with solvent at the overhaul depot. Of course, once filled with diesel and having the lines and injectors purged it ran perfectly and pulled 50 Kw.

So, a diesel will fun on solvent.

posted 02-22-2008 11:35 PM ET (US)            

E-tec and Opti are both a Direct injection 2 stroke technology. The only real difference in the motors (in general and in the scope of burning diesel fuel in a spark ignited engine) are the style of injector used.

I know what is needed for a DI two stroke to run well on diesel. I know from the SAE papers submitted by BRP engineers what the e-tech injector can and cannot do with regard to the atomization of diesel fuel.

I don't doubt Dave may know more about fuels, but I do doubt he has designed and calibrated very many DI two strokes to run on diesel.

And none of our speculation in this thread on wether a E-tec can burn diesel really matters.