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SAFE Boat: Dominating Commercial, Government, Military Sales
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ContinuousWave Whaler Moderated Discussion Areas
ContinuousWave: The Whaler GAM or General Area
SAFE Boat: Dominating Commercial, Government, Military Sales
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| Author | Topic: SAFE Boat: Dominating Commercial, Government, Military Sales |
| jimh |
posted 06-19-2008 10:26 PM ET (US)  
The preponderance of SAFE boats in use by the federal government was mentioned tangentially in another discussion. Have SAFE Boats taken over the market that was once the private playground of Boston Whaler's Commercial Product Division? Compare at: http://www.safeboats.com/default/home.html And then there is Aluminum Chambered Boats, also with a strong presence. Has aluminum supplanted the Unibond fiberglass hull? What say ye all? |
| jeffs22outrage |
posted 06-19-2008 10:56 PM ET (US)
Jim, I may be wrong however, since you boat where I do please tell me if you see it differently, the only Government agencies I see with new Whalers are local Police Departments (Detroit and Oakland county have newer hulls). The DNR I have seen are running mostly Tracker marine Products on the open waters of the Great Lakes. Except for the Southern Lake Michigan area of Michigan where they use Pursuits due to Tiara being in Holland. All of the Coast Guard vessels I have seen are all SAFE boats. The Army Corp of engineers are using Monark Boats. All of the US Border patrol boats I have seen on the Detroit River are Monarks or SAFE boats. Finally Customs is using Midnight Express for all of their vessels. Sad to now go to Boston Whaler's Commercial and Government Division site and no longer seeing the classic 15' hull, 17' hull, and 18' hull being available. |
| WT |
posted 06-19-2008 11:06 PM ET (US)
I haven't seen many Boston Whaler Commercial hulls around Northern California. But I see these all over the place... At least it has a Verado on the transom. Warren |
| WT |
posted 06-19-2008 11:13 PM ET (US)
The new Brunswick 15, 17 and 19 Guardians are actually Montauk hulls! The 15 and 17 Guardians have the same maximum horsepower rating as the 150 and 170 Montauks. I figured Brunswick would have bumped the horsepower rating up to 115 for the 17 Guardian. Warren |
| L H G |
posted 06-19-2008 11:57 PM ET (US)
Post 9/11, the needs of the military have changed. They need rugged, specifically designed, all weather boats, suitable for boarding other boats, and more protection (including armor) for the crews. They also need high power 4-stroke engines like the Verado, which seems to have the power market all to itself. They got a lot of grief for the foreign made (Honda) power on the first round of smaller Safeboat purchases, which was before the Verado's were available. Naturally aspirated 4-strokes don't have enough "zip" for their needs. The days of converting an open center console recreational design from the late seventies, like the 22 and 25 Outrages, for modern day military needs, and into the future, may be over. I don't think Whaler is even attempting to compete in this arena. Even a 25 Guardian can't handle a pair of L6 Verados. |
| Chuck Tribolet |
posted 06-20-2008 12:49 AM ET (US)
In Monterey, CA: The small CG boat (very occasionally "boats") is a SafeBoat. The DFG science folks have a nice BW Challenger. If I win Yes, BW needs to attack this problem. I don't see ANYTHING
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| deepwater |
posted 06-20-2008 05:32 AM ET (US)
They do look intimidating and that is what you need during first contact. they also have the look of ruggedness and crew protection. another plus in a visual intimidation scene. i think regardless of construction materials whaler missed out on visual appeal to agencies that needed to present a strong first impression |
| jimh |
posted 06-20-2008 08:51 AM ET (US)
The only newer Boston Whaler commercial boat I have seen is the Detroit Police Department's dive boat. On the SAFE Boats website they show their boats with all kinds of power: Honda, Johnson Ocean Pro, OptiMax. Most boats I have seen on the water are running Honda four-cycle motors. The Coast Guard seems to particularly like those engines. What is the price comparison like? Those SAFE Boats look very expensive. Is there price data available for them? |
| Casco Bay Outrage |
posted 06-20-2008 10:13 AM ET (US)
Without knowing much of the technical differences, I does not surprise me that DHS went with a new design. Why? Who really knows. If Brunswick wants to get future DHS contracts, it will need to come out with something NEW. Nothing wrong with their designs. Some people just think new/different is better. It is the nature of procurement. I do agree with Larry, the post 9/11 mission is very different. Has Brunswick adapted? |
| towboater |
posted 06-20-2008 10:52 AM ET (US)
Im not positive, for the sake of argument, turn these boats upside down, I estimate they will all have similar hull co-efficiency. 19-24 ft multi purpose boats: Again, I would like to see BW stretch the Classic 18 hull to 8.5 ft beam, and the appropriate length. Incorporate jackplate type of transom adjustability into a post classic style molded transom. This will allow the Skipper to adjust the height of a variety of engines/props in different conditions/purpose/fuel efficiency as well as the trim by pushbutton. Does this copy the Safeboat? Yes and no. Im outa time. Blue skies. mk |
| phatwhaler |
posted 06-20-2008 01:06 PM ET (US)
When I first joined the Coast Guard all of the "non-standard" boats were either Whalers, Zodiacs, Avons, and a few Makos. Now every station that I can think of has a couple of 25 Safeboats. Some of the south Florida units are getting the new 33 Safeboat. One of the reasons for a all safeboat Coast Guard is that the CG now considers a 25 Safeboat a "standard" boat. Which means the boats are identical down the equipment and training requirments. Another issue deals with the reserve force. The CG wants all of the reserves to be trained up and ready to deploy anywhere around the world. This fairly recent requirement made a standardized vessel for reserve use very important. Interestingly, the Whaler commercial website had been upgraded. Maybe they are starting to market more towards the government since recreational boaters aren't buying 27 Outrages like they used to. It's a shame because as I look around at the different Sheriff's departments and FWC they are starting to use Intrepids, Contenders, and other high end stuff. This last few years the state, county, and various municipalities were drunk with cash. Now the games over. I think Whaler should start to concentrate their marketing on the fuel efficiency of small boats less than 22 feet.
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| pglein |
posted 06-20-2008 01:28 PM ET (US)
Here in Tacoma, WA, the local USCG Port Security Unit (PSU #313) still uses their Guardians, and from discussions I've had with them, they love them. They are heavily combat oriented and have made several overseas deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan. They wear camoflauge and body armor rather than the normal blue uniforms, and their boats are armed with .50cal guns instead of the smaller guns found on the SafeBoats. However, the majority of the regular patrol boats (USCG and other) around here are SafeBoats. This, of course, is no surprise, as they're built not 20 minutes away up Highway 16. The primary difference between the SafeBoats and the Guardian hull is the existence of an enclosed helm that provides a crew of four with heat, air conditioning, and shelter from wind and waves. This greatly reduces crew fatigue and allows them to stay on patrol longer, reducing trips to and from station, reducing cost and increasing coverage. This is the primary selling point when you go to SafeBoat website, it is stated as an important intiative in numerous USCG publications, and it is confirmed by talking to USCG boat operators. The failure of Boston Whaler to recognize this critical flaw in their lineup of both commercial and government products as well as recreational products is what is really hurting them. It's been my ONLY complaint about Whaler's products for many years. Also, I would not be surprised if the SafeBoats are lighter, and thus, require less fuel for regular operations, which is likely a factor as well. |
| L H G |
posted 06-20-2008 02:21 PM ET (US)
Where they need the power, in Coastal areas, the Hondas have already been replaced on the USCG's first 25' Safeboat purchases with 250 Verados. http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v429/lgoltz/Verados/?action=view& current=Scan0012.jpg For more benign Inland areas like the Great Lakes, where recreational duty is the norm, the Hondas are still been run until they wear out. Ask any CG crewman, and he'll tell you he rather have Verado power on these rigs. |
| towboater |
posted 06-20-2008 02:26 PM ET (US)
quote from my previous reply; "Incorporate jackplate type of transom adjustability into a post classic style molded transom. This will allow the Skipper to adjust the height of a variety of engines/props in different conditions/purpose/fuel efficiency as well as the trim by pushbutton." I should add, I dont think you could build this style of transom (rounded efficient molded chines) out of aluminum. Point is, alum hull might be a little faster in a straight line, but, the transom and the smooth chines of a glass hull should lap a rigid hard chine alum hull in a tight figure 8 race. Quicker maneauvering in rough water is a attractive competitive edge I hope CPD will consider...enclosed cabins are easy, secondary options.
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| gss036 |
posted 06-20-2008 02:28 PM ET (US)
There was a mention of ACB's boats. ACB was able to make an entry into the goverment contract market because they competed and won a contract on the design and usage factor for their boat to be used by USMC for bridge contruction and moving heavy loads for other projects. Also the ability to take small arms fire w/o sinking. I think, (if I remember correctly) they are in the running currently for another very large goverment contract. If they get that, then, there are plans for enlargeing the mfg facilites with more capicity. There was also an emphasis on the recreation boating and wanting to enter that market stronger than they are currently. I have seem some of the newer U.S. Customs police boats and they are fiberglass CC design and range from 24-34 foot with up to four 250 HP Verados pushing the larger ones. They probably feel the need to be able to cope with the Canadian drug trade in the islands here. |
| skiff |
posted 06-20-2008 02:38 PM ET (US)
I have driven large RIBS and I have driven large Whalers, and make no mistake, there is a TON of difference between the way these two genres of hulls ride. In open water, round Britain type offshore races, the big turbo diesel RIBS humiliate the 'standard' offshore race boats. That tells me something. There are many experts who consider a RIB to the be most seaworthy hull design out there, and I'm not sure I've seen enough counter evidence to dispute that? I'm sure there are another 374 good, solid reasons why the CG moved from plastic to aluminum 'standard' boats, but I'm sure somewhere in there was the ride characteristic of the RIB-like Safeboat. There IS a difference, and no doubt it was a part of their decision making process. No one could get on the Safeboat website and not be impressed. These guys have thought it through to the nth degree, and it's beyond impressive. Between Protector, Naid, and some of the other big, well done RHIB companies, this type of boat seems to be gaining marketshare in all segments of the marien marketplace, and there's a lesson here for all boat companies to learn from. |
| skiff |
posted 06-20-2008 02:39 PM ET (US)
Uh, that would be 'marine' marketplace. |
| phatwhaler |
posted 06-20-2008 03:12 PM ET (US)
LHG, The standard issue Honda powered 25 foot Safe boats are all getting re-powered with Honda's on the west coast of Florida. The boat you linked to was a 27 footer acquired at the beginning of the Safe boat phase. Many of these boats had old two stroke EFI's on them. I will admit I would rather have Verado's on the 25s. The Honda controls shift poorly. Not only are they clunky, but they are too big and are installed too close to the steering wheel. The ride of the 25 Foot Safe boats is better than any Whaler I've been on. The spring loaded truck driver style seats help that immensely. In case someone is interested I have heard that these 25 foot Safe boats cost the taxpayers about 225,000 a piece. |
| JayR |
posted 06-20-2008 03:30 PM ET (US)
The ACB video is well worth the time to view. If only I had the funds to purchase one! |
| erik selis |
posted 06-20-2008 03:54 PM ET (US)
Check out the "Alert" option on the 15, 17 and 19-ft Guardian (New Montauk) models. They have a side console. Imagine the room that creates in these boats to use as a work boat. I wonder if yo can buy the hull of these Guardians without console o anything else. Then you could add a nice big console with maybe some teak. Maybe even a classic RPS. Adding some wood on the gunnels would finish it off. Well, I'm just fantasizing here but it would be interesting to see. Erik |
| jimh |
posted 06-20-2008 05:16 PM ET (US)
If the Coast Guard is waiting until Honda four-stroke motors wear out, they have to wait over 3,000-hours, or at least that is the impression I got from a few conversations with Coasties. |
| HAPPYJIM |
posted 06-20-2008 05:27 PM ET (US)
That won't take long with the way they run them. When I ran the small boat the engines knew two speeds, Idle and WOT. I would estimate 3000 hrs would take no more than 2 years to accumulate on a Coastie boat. |
| Dr T |
posted 06-20-2008 05:57 PM ET (US)
Very interesting technology. There may be three additional reasons for the current popularity of the SAFE boat in military and para-military roles. The first is the natural armour effect of the thick foam collar: "The Standard SAFE Boats Collar system has been proven to stop small arms fire from penetrating the side plate of the hull. With the addition of ballistic material either behind the collar or laminated in the collar it can stop up to 7.62 mm."--SAFE Boats website. The second reason may the modular construction: Since we currently have a need to deploy these boats world wide, wouldn't the modular construction allow the SAFE boats to be shipped to the deployment site and reassembled more easily than shippping a similar number of Guardian hulls? The third reason is repairablilty: The SAFE boat site claims that a damaged collar can be repaired in hours (rather than days) by an unskilled laborer. (I spent a lot more time on that on my 13 with NO hull work). As I recall from my defense contractor days, logistics and spares is always 90% of life cycle cost. Thanks for the links, Jim. |
| ConB |
posted 06-20-2008 06:38 PM ET (US)
The Brunswick Commercial Division might be loosing boat business but they have cool apparel! ;-) http://www.brunswickcgstore.com/ProductDetails.aspx?CategoryID=1134& productID=4067 Con |
| jimh |
posted 06-20-2008 08:31 PM ET (US)
I just bought a Tee and a Coozie. Show your support! Order now....from Brunswick Commercial and Government Products, just to be clear. |
| Perry |
posted 06-24-2008 03:12 AM ET (US)
I recently saw 6 brand new 25 foot Safeboats at the local Coast Guard station with Honda Power on them. The Coasties here that I have spoken to seem satisfied with them. |
| boatdryver |
posted 06-24-2008 09:53 AM ET (US)
With all those Honda 225's on the USCG Safeboats we quickly had field evidence of those engines' excellent longevity in a harsh use cycle. Now, with the USCG equipping so many Safeboats with Verados, the thousands of us who were "forced" to acquire Verados (a relatively new product line) along with the purchase of a new Whaler won't have to wait too long to learn about the longevity of the Verado power train and the durability of the DTS electronics in a harsh use environment. There must be a lot of L6 Verado owners who will breathe a little easier if the Verado's service life turns out to be anything at all like the Honda's . JimL |
| jimh |
posted 06-24-2008 10:16 AM ET (US)
There was a very strong presence of military and government craft last night in the Detroit River when it was closed down for several hours for a fireworks presentation. I did observe one relatively large SAFE Boat--probably bigger than 25-feet in length--and it was powered with triple Verado engines. I believe that this boat was being operated by the Coast Guard. Unfortunately, I did not see a single Boston Whaler boat in use by these many agencies. Most were SAFE Boats, and an odd aluminum boat, probably a MONARK, |
| David Pendleton |
posted 06-24-2008 11:30 AM ET (US)
I was talking to a few of the CG folks at station Bayfield last year about their SafeBoat (equipped with Hondas). I was told the engines are running pretty much 24 hours a day, even at the dock. Apparently, they don't shut them off so they don't have to contend with them not starting when they need them. |
| kwik_wurk |
posted 06-24-2008 03:03 PM ET (US)
I think what everyone is talking about is the Response Boat Small (RB-S). The USCG has three standard vessels designed for inland/coastal ops. RB-S, RB-M, RB-L. The bidding for the RB-S went out years ago, and was won by SafeBoats. All invited manufactures had the option of building a prototype per USCG specs; and compete for the contract. (I can't remember all the companies that participated, but there was a lot.) As others have mentioned this is the standard boat for years to come. (I think the original contract was for 700 at 2 per week, ~7 years.) (That's a lot of Honda outboards.) This order is actually going to be extended. But don't quote me on that. Oddly enough I have been involved with the RB-M. (Yes, it is aluminum, and no it does not have Verados (twin diesel jets). Here is the USCG page web for the RB-M project: |
| hauptjm |
posted 06-24-2008 05:49 PM ET (US)
The RB-M has an interesting hull form. See: http://www.uscg.mil/acquisition/rbm/images/RB-M_Day_One_hrsm.jpg Seems very familiar! |
| pglein |
posted 06-24-2008 06:10 PM ET (US)
The RB-M is also being built here in the Seattle area by Kvickak Marine. I'm very happy to see so many of our local boat builders getting these contracts. |
| gss036 |
posted 06-24-2008 07:12 PM ET (US)
In my conversations with the Coast Guards guys and gals, they like the Verado motors but are having a hard time keeping lower units operating. They say there is just too much torque and it tears them up quite fast. I've seen these boats take on it a hurry with triple 250 Verados and they do have an impressive hole shot for the size. |
| skiff |
posted 06-24-2008 08:29 PM ET (US)
Here's a few shots of SAFE Boats from Northern California. The fleet at the dock at CG Station Yerba Buena: http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg57/skiff_bucket/safeboat1-1.jpg Elsewhere in the Bay, the SAFEboats from SFPD's Marine Unit: http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg57/skiff_bucket/safeboat2.jpg http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg57/skiff_bucket/safeboat3.jpg http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg57/skiff_bucket/safeboat4.jpg As you can see, they really are a completely different genre of commercial workboat. Comparing these boats to any version of a commercial Whaler is really an apple and orange type of thing. Another factor to consider is that a lot of agencies (certainly not the CG, but more over on the law enforcement side of the fence) get the funding for their boats from the State, which years ago mandated they would give money for aluminum boats ONLY. That policy change in and of itself doomed Boston Whaler as an agency boat supplier, at least in California. |
| HAPPYJIM |
posted 06-26-2008 09:28 AM ET (US)
Here's a short video that shows Whalers are still used in certain missions. RIBS are cool but Whalers RULE. |
| Skipjack 17 |
posted 06-26-2008 02:18 PM ET (US)
Yes Washington builds boat the USCG seem to love. I think there cloning them in the harbor. I think we have 5-6 Safe Boats some with three outboards one 41' patrol boat and two 80+ cutters in Bellingham. The ABC Boats are built just 2 miles away from our home and I could tell you some stories about that company. I do not like Aluminum boats because most ( the ones you can afford sound like a tin while under way. But in the northwest we beach our boats allot on rocks and barnacles and BW are really a dock boat or on soft sand. I really believe if I had my way, the best NW recreational boat for the people would have an Aluminum bottom with a FRP cabin area. The two halves could be held together with bushings to help absorb the shock and hold the two dissimulor materials together. Just my thoughts...........Bob |
| TexasWhaler |
posted 07-02-2008 04:58 PM ET (US)
Please keep in mind, that altough the more luxurious SAFE boats are definitely becoming more, and more common, this only appears to be case for boats patrolling domestic waters - when referring to Coast Guard operations. However, as Pglein had referred in his eariler post, the Coast Guard PSUs (Port Security Units), and MSSTs (Maritime Safety and Security Teams), both continue to use Whaler Guardian 25s, for patrolling waters in other parts of the world - especially during times of war. The Coastie's Guardians (officially known as TPSBs - or Transportable Port Security Boats), are loaded into military transport aircraft (C-17s and/or C-5s), and rushed into some of the hottest zones in the world. It seems that the Coast Guard still feels that the Whaler Guardians are the best suited port security boats, for the hostile and unforgiving conditions, that no doubt are part of wartime deployements, and operations.
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| Kingsteven18 |
posted 07-02-2008 05:56 PM ET (US)
I've been in many ports over the last few years on cruise ships and all that I've seen have been SafeBoats. |
| glen e |
posted 07-02-2008 06:58 PM ET (US)
This boat came out of nowhere as we were coming in at about 45 mph from the Bahamas....followed us all the way in the inlet to the ICW - gave us a complete safety check - 6 or so guys,very nice about it..they overtook me like I was standing still - they raved about the verados - 450 hours in a very short time with no problems whatsoever. I think this is a 36, had trip 275 Gen II V's: http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/gersly123/cg1.jpg |
| home Aside |
posted 07-02-2008 07:19 PM ET (US)
Buckda & I were by the Detroit Police Harbormaster Unit on the Detroit River (U.S./Canada Border) a few weeks ago, they had a new Whaler 27 (not sure what model), they also have a Montauk in the boat house. I know the 27 footer was purchased through a Homeland Security Grant, the USCG Detroit & Belle Isle Stations have Safeboats and we also saw Border Patrol Units in Safeboats on our little jaunt that day
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| Vek |
posted 07-02-2008 07:26 PM ET (US)
I've been stopped a few times by a 25+ foot coast guard safeboat in the San Juans - twin honda 225s. I've been stopped by US customs returning to Birch Bay from the San Juans in Georgia Strait - 34-ish foot CC something with four 225 optis. That thing got up on me in a big hurry. I've been checked by AK fish and game out in the middle of the Gulf of Alaska by a 25+foot safeboat wearing twin honda 225s. I guess that water can't compare with offshore Florida, though. Either that or those guys weren't safe without Merc power 30+ miles one way from Resurrection Bay on one side or Prince William Sound on the other. Those hondas were liable to self destruct at any moment, given their distance from port. They didn't seem to care. |
| TexasWhaler |
posted 07-02-2008 08:15 PM ET (US)
quote: I'm sure there are many SAFE boats used worldwide. However, the United States Coast Guard only uses them to patrol domestic waters. Anytime they need port security boats airlifted (abruptly loaded into military transport aircraft) to another part of the world, they rely on their Guardians. This does not mean that SAFE boats are not tough rigs. It does show, however, that the simplicity, and shear strength of the Guardians, make them the first choice of the Coast Guard, for overseas, port security missions - peacetime, and during war. |
| Kingsteven18 |
posted 07-05-2008 01:25 AM ET (US)
http://wcbstv.com/local/tracs.boat.nypd.2.763644.html |
| jimh |
posted 07-07-2008 05:07 PM ET (US)
We spent the holiday weekend living aboard our boat in a marina slip. When at the dock we saw quite a bit of government and military activity. The local sheriff had a 22-foot Boston Whaler with an enclosed helm station--I don't recall the precise model designator--with a pair of Evinrude FICHT V6 motors on a Whaler Drive. The boat appeared to be quite stern heavy, as the Whaler Drive only had a few inches of freeboard. I chatted with the Sheriff's Deputy, and he told me the boat had been around for a long time. It had been repaired several times, once after "almost breaking in half," the deputy said. I suspected it had some water in the hull. They spent a lot of time idling in the harbor, and they blue-lighted almost every boat that came in. We timed our departures so they coincided with the Sheriff already involved with another boat. Our arrivals were pure luck. The Sheriff was no where around, although late Sunday as we approached the dock for the last time we did motor right buy the Sheriff without even a glance. I considered it professional courtesy out of respect for our 22-foot Boston Whale hull with Whaler drive. The U.S.C.G trailered in a 25-foot SAFE boat on Friday evening to supervise the harbor during the fireworks display. It was powered by a pair of HONDA four-cycle motors. The coxswain said they only had 325-hours on them. I think this was a recently delivered boat. Apparently the twin HONDA motors are still the engine of choice for the Coast Guard on the 25-foot SAFE boat. Every one I have ever seen has had HONDA power. While at the fuel dock in Caseville, we bumped into a retired U.S. Parks Service rescue boat, another 22-foot Boston Whaler. The captain explained that it had been in service in Lake Superior, and was recently put out to bid. The bidding deadline coincided with the opening of deer hunting season, and the fellow's father had made the winning (and only) bid: $3,500. He got a boat in decent shape, with a super heavy duty trailer, and twin OMC V4 motors. It looks like the Boston Whaler boat as the government or military boat of choice is still around, but they tend to be older boats. Lots of Evinrude FICHT power, too. The other sheriff's boat we saw (not a Whaler) had a FICHT on the transom. |
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