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Author Topic:   Flag Placement

sapple posted 01-18-2009 10:15 AM ET (US)
I want to install a flag on my Montauk. My initial thought was to mount it on the gunwale in the [stern]. Even with the Bimini top down there is still spot where I could install it. I would be interested in where other Boston Whalers put flags and advice about how to install them, hardware, and placements that may interfere with boating activities, etc.
jimh posted 01-18-2009 10:41 AM ET (US)
Placement of flags on vessels is governed by the long standing maritime traditions of flag etiquette. The location for a flag depends on the type of flag.
If you are asking about where to display the national ensign, on small power boats it is properly flown from a staff at the stern. There is a very good article on the subject of maritime flags at Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maritime_flag
The linked image below show how I display on my boat the national ensign and a foreign courtesy flag when navigating in Canada:
http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/images/GAM/ courtesyFlagStaff640x480.jpg
K Albus posted 01-18-2009 03:10 PM ET (US)
Here's another good resource, written in laymen's terms: http://www.usps.org/f_stuff/etiquett.html#updated-code
witsendfl posted 01-18-2009 04:01 PM ET (US)
Are you wanting to install an American Flag on a BW Flag?
Normally flags of boat type are called Burgees and are flown on the bow of the boat.
American Flags are flown at the highest point
witsendfl
Jim K
sapple posted 01-18-2009 04:02 PM ET (US)
jimh, thanks for the information. How did you mount the flag pole to your boat? Is it set up so that you can remove it easily if you want to?
jimh posted 01-18-2009 04:27 PM ET (US)
To mount my flag staff to my deck I used a flag staff socket for deck mounting. You can get them at any ship chandlery. A name brand is PERKO.
Because I have a four-foot teak flag staff and a correspondingly large flag, and because the boat winds when running at top speed into head winds can be quite strong, I used stainless steel fasteners to through-bolt the flag staff socket to the deck, and I reinforced the deck under the flag staff socket with a backing plate of aluminum. The backing plate is about 3-inch by 3-inch and is about 0.150-inch thick. I used elastic stop nuts or Ny-Lok fasteners so that they would not loosen with vibration.
The size of the flag to be flown should be determined by the size of the boat, but this is primarily important in selecting the minimum size of flag. It is not particular improper to show a flag that is larger than the minimum, although, as in any aesthetic consideration, there are limits.
The staff is wooden. It fits somewhat loosely in the socket. There are several techniques for obtaining a tighter fit. The simplest is to make a shim out of thin plastic. The polypropylene plastic used to make milk containers is a handy source of a thin plastic which can be easily cut with shears to fashion a shim.
In the archives you will find prior discussion of these topics and other solutions offered.
jimh posted 01-18-2009 04:31 PM ET (US)
By the way, vessels do not have flag poles. Vessels have masts or flag staffs.
Dave Sutton posted 01-18-2009 04:34 PM ET (US)
"American Flags are flown at the highest point"

Uh.... not on boats.
National Flag always at stern.
Even Wiki seems to agree...
"The usual rule that no flag should be flown higher than the national flag does not apply on board a ship: a flag flown at the stern is always in a superior position to a flag flown elsewhere on the ship, even if the latter is higher up."
Starboard Yardarm is a place of honor for flags such as the nation you are visiting, etc., or other flags such as the First Navy Jack (Don't Tread on Me), which was John Paul Jones personal flag. Second position is below that. Port yardarm reserved for signals.
Club Burgee (if used) or House/Owners Flag on the bow.

Smaller boats without all of the 'places and spaces' still should fly the national flag astern. I use a flag staff on the Montauk that fits into the running light stanchions.

Dave Sutton
(Aboard RV EXPLORER, (with National Ensign at the stern, First Navy Jack above the Rhode Island state flag at Starboard spreader, and my personal flag at the bow when I am aboard, so friends know to call aboard for drinks and good cheer).
.
.

highanddry posted 01-19-2009 01:18 PM ET (US)
Installing a stern flag staff is not an option on many Boston Whaler boats. There is no access to install plates and quality hardware through bolted. Many Whalers as well use those areas for re boarding from the swim step/platform/ladder and having a flag staff there would result in potential harm to the people and the boat.
I fly from the bow and sometimes from the console rail. The stern is a no go, between fishing, scuba diving, water sking, nope, not possible. Adoption of rules for ship to small craft is often not possible.
AtoZ posted 01-19-2009 04:53 PM ET (US)
I fly my ensign from the stern light pole on my Montauk.
Chuck Tribolet posted 01-19-2009 05:04 PM ET (US)
I fly my ensign from from the light staff. Stars and Stripes
on National Holidays, First Navy Jack other times.

Chuck
Dave Sutton posted 01-19-2009 09:16 PM ET (US)
Well Done Chuck T for flying the First Navy Jack!
In the Navy it used to be reserved for the oldest warship in commission, but as of 2002 it became a flag flown aboard all US Warships.
Here's where to get 'em:
http://www.gadsdenandculpeper.com/smdtflofboau.html
Fly with (rebellious) pride.

All Whalers can fly a flag from the aft nav light mast.... and if you have one of those funny ones sticking up outta the console, adding a socket to the top of the outboard cowling is easy to do.

Dave
.
highanddry posted 01-19-2009 09:43 PM ET (US)
The light mast on most center consoles is on the console, not on the stern. Thought you guys knew that.
Nantucket Sleighride posted 01-19-2009 11:21 PM ET (US)
A flag measuring 18" in length would be perfectly suited for Your Montauk. "Chapman's Piloting Guide" indicates that the flag at the stern of your boat should be one inch on the fly for each foot of overall length.
My hats off to "Old Glory" and your patriotism.
jimh posted 01-19-2009 11:45 PM ET (US)
It seems a JACK is supposed to be flown from the bow. It's flown in addition to the ENSIGN at the stern, not in place of it. Or have traditions changed?
jimh posted 01-19-2009 11:54 PM ET (US)
As for proper size, I say go a little bigger if you can. The best yacht flag display I've ever seen occurred a few years ago on the Detroit River. A sailboat about 65-feet long was cruising past the Detroit shoreline a few hours before the Freedom Festival Fireworks. There were several hundred thousand people lining the shore. The sailor broke out this huge blue flag with three yellow Fleur-de-lis. The flag was set from the backstay of the main mast and was flying about three-quarters of the way to the masthead. It was enormous, maybe 8-feet by 12-feet. Flying that flag gave that boat more attention than anything else afloat in the river that evening.
Chuck Tribolet posted 01-20-2009 12:34 AM ET (US)
Dave, that's exactly why I fly the First Navy Jack. I'm a
Navy brat.
My light staff is aft.

Chuck
jimp posted 01-20-2009 01:58 PM ET (US)
Depending on boat/ship size American flags (national ensign) are not always flown from the highest point.
The place of honor is the gaff, if so equipped. USCG and USN vessels display their national ensigns from the gaff. Vessels equipped with a gaff on the mast should display their national ensign from the gaff.
If no gaff, then the national ensign is flown from the flag staff (aft).
Jack staff is at the bow.
Bottom line, setting all the "rules" aside, if you want to display the flag and can only fly it from one point, do it. Nothing wrong with having pride in your country. But if possible, follow the rules of "flag etiquette). Chapman's is a great source and should be in all mariners/boaters libraries.
JimP

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Author	Topic: Flag Placement
sapple	posted 01-18-2009 10:15 AM ET (US) I want to install a flag on my Montauk. My initial thought was to mount it on the gunwale in the [stern]. Even with the Bimini top down there is still spot where I could install it. I would be interested in where other Boston Whalers put flags and advice about how to install them, hardware, and placements that may interfere with boating activities, etc.
jimh	posted 01-18-2009 10:41 AM ET (US) Placement of flags on vessels is governed by the long standing maritime traditions of flag etiquette. The location for a flag depends on the type of flag. If you are asking about where to display the national ensign, on small power boats it is properly flown from a staff at the stern. There is a very good article on the subject of maritime flags at Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maritime_flag The linked image below show how I display on my boat the national ensign and a foreign courtesy flag when navigating in Canada: http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/images/GAM/ courtesyFlagStaff640x480.jpg
K Albus	posted 01-18-2009 03:10 PM ET (US) Here's another good resource, written in laymen's terms: http://www.usps.org/f_stuff/etiquett.html#updated-code
witsendfl	posted 01-18-2009 04:01 PM ET (US) Are you wanting to install an American Flag on a BW Flag? Normally flags of boat type are called Burgees and are flown on the bow of the boat. American Flags are flown at the highest point witsendfl Jim K
sapple	posted 01-18-2009 04:02 PM ET (US) jimh, thanks for the information. How did you mount the flag pole to your boat? Is it set up so that you can remove it easily if you want to?
jimh	posted 01-18-2009 04:27 PM ET (US) To mount my flag staff to my deck I used a flag staff socket for deck mounting. You can get them at any ship chandlery. A name brand is PERKO. Because I have a four-foot teak flag staff and a correspondingly large flag, and because the boat winds when running at top speed into head winds can be quite strong, I used stainless steel fasteners to through-bolt the flag staff socket to the deck, and I reinforced the deck under the flag staff socket with a backing plate of aluminum. The backing plate is about 3-inch by 3-inch and is about 0.150-inch thick. I used elastic stop nuts or Ny-Lok fasteners so that they would not loosen with vibration. The size of the flag to be flown should be determined by the size of the boat, but this is primarily important in selecting the minimum size of flag. It is not particular improper to show a flag that is larger than the minimum, although, as in any aesthetic consideration, there are limits. The staff is wooden. It fits somewhat loosely in the socket. There are several techniques for obtaining a tighter fit. The simplest is to make a shim out of thin plastic. The polypropylene plastic used to make milk containers is a handy source of a thin plastic which can be easily cut with shears to fashion a shim. In the archives you will find prior discussion of these topics and other solutions offered.
jimh	posted 01-18-2009 04:31 PM ET (US) By the way, vessels do not have flag poles. Vessels have masts or flag staffs.
Dave Sutton	posted 01-18-2009 04:34 PM ET (US) "American Flags are flown at the highest point" Uh.... not on boats. National Flag always at stern. Even Wiki seems to agree... "The usual rule that no flag should be flown higher than the national flag does not apply on board a ship: a flag flown at the stern is always in a superior position to a flag flown elsewhere on the ship, even if the latter is higher up." Starboard Yardarm is a place of honor for flags such as the nation you are visiting, etc., or other flags such as the First Navy Jack (Don't Tread on Me), which was John Paul Jones personal flag. Second position is below that. Port yardarm reserved for signals. Club Burgee (if used) or House/Owners Flag on the bow. Smaller boats without all of the 'places and spaces' still should fly the national flag astern. I use a flag staff on the Montauk that fits into the running light stanchions. Dave Sutton (Aboard RV EXPLORER, (with National Ensign at the stern, First Navy Jack above the Rhode Island state flag at Starboard spreader, and my personal flag at the bow when I am aboard, so friends know to call aboard for drinks and good cheer). . .
highanddry	posted 01-19-2009 01:18 PM ET (US) Installing a stern flag staff is not an option on many Boston Whaler boats. There is no access to install plates and quality hardware through bolted. Many Whalers as well use those areas for re boarding from the swim step/platform/ladder and having a flag staff there would result in potential harm to the people and the boat. I fly from the bow and sometimes from the console rail. The stern is a no go, between fishing, scuba diving, water sking, nope, not possible. Adoption of rules for ship to small craft is often not possible.
AtoZ	posted 01-19-2009 04:53 PM ET (US) I fly my ensign from the stern light pole on my Montauk.
Chuck Tribolet	posted 01-19-2009 05:04 PM ET (US) I fly my ensign from from the light staff. Stars and Stripes on National Holidays, First Navy Jack other times. Chuck
Dave Sutton	posted 01-19-2009 09:16 PM ET (US) Well Done Chuck T for flying the First Navy Jack! In the Navy it used to be reserved for the oldest warship in commission, but as of 2002 it became a flag flown aboard all US Warships. Here's where to get 'em: http://www.gadsdenandculpeper.com/smdtflofboau.html Fly with (rebellious) pride. All Whalers can fly a flag from the aft nav light mast.... and if you have one of those funny ones sticking up outta the console, adding a socket to the top of the outboard cowling is easy to do. Dave .
highanddry	posted 01-19-2009 09:43 PM ET (US) The light mast on most center consoles is on the console, not on the stern. Thought you guys knew that.
Nantucket Sleighride	posted 01-19-2009 11:21 PM ET (US) A flag measuring 18" in length would be perfectly suited for Your Montauk. "Chapman's Piloting Guide" indicates that the flag at the stern of your boat should be one inch on the fly for each foot of overall length. My hats off to "Old Glory" and your patriotism.
jimh	posted 01-19-2009 11:45 PM ET (US) It seems a JACK is supposed to be flown from the bow. It's flown in addition to the ENSIGN at the stern, not in place of it. Or have traditions changed?
jimh	posted 01-19-2009 11:54 PM ET (US) As for proper size, I say go a little bigger if you can. The best yacht flag display I've ever seen occurred a few years ago on the Detroit River. A sailboat about 65-feet long was cruising past the Detroit shoreline a few hours before the Freedom Festival Fireworks. There were several hundred thousand people lining the shore. The sailor broke out this huge blue flag with three yellow Fleur-de-lis. The flag was set from the backstay of the main mast and was flying about three-quarters of the way to the masthead. It was enormous, maybe 8-feet by 12-feet. Flying that flag gave that boat more attention than anything else afloat in the river that evening.
Chuck Tribolet	posted 01-20-2009 12:34 AM ET (US) Dave, that's exactly why I fly the First Navy Jack. I'm a Navy brat. My light staff is aft. Chuck
jimp	posted 01-20-2009 01:58 PM ET (US) Depending on boat/ship size American flags (national ensign) are not always flown from the highest point. The place of honor is the gaff, if so equipped. USCG and USN vessels display their national ensigns from the gaff. Vessels equipped with a gaff on the mast should display their national ensign from the gaff. If no gaff, then the national ensign is flown from the flag staff (aft). Jack staff is at the bow. Bottom line, setting all the "rules" aside, if you want to display the flag and can only fly it from one point, do it. Nothing wrong with having pride in your country. But if possible, follow the rules of "flag etiquette). Chapman's is a great source and should be in all mariners/boaters libraries. JimP