posted 03-10-2009 05:31 AM ET (US)        

"[The boaters] were [unknown acronym] fishing on a wreck known as the Mexican Pride which is about 50 miles from Clearwater Pass. They had already caught and stowed some [unknown acronym]. As the [weather] got worse they decided to pull anchor. The anchor fouled on the bottom in 115-feet of water. To horse the anchor free, they tied the line to the stern cleat and hit the gas. The anchor did not budge and the stretch and recoil of the anchor line cause stern to immediately go under and swamp the boat and turn turtle. this was all nearly instantaneous.

"The hull was subsequently righted by recovery crews. The hull had drifted in the high seas and high winds several miles to the south west into a 160 ft of water. The anchor had wedged into the bottom. The anchor line was wrapped and tangled all around the T-top. The fish they had caught were still with the vessel. All the other required CG safety gear trapped underwater floated out of the boat. Even if these guys had all the safety gear in the world, including an [emergency position indicating radio beacon], it would have been underwater and useless. If they had been wearing a [personal locator beacon] of some sort then there may have been some possibility of survival.

"The fact that the hull floated in this case did in fact allow a person to get out of the water and avoid death from hypothermia. Would I rely on or incorporate a turtled hull as part of my safety--probably not. Is a turtled hull more easily spotted by searchers--probably but don't count on it. PLB and EPIRB and a modicum of seamanship goes a long way. These guys had none of that."

posted 03-10-2009 08:13 AM ET (US)            

No, just incompetent.

Darwin Rules.

Dave

posted 03-10-2009 08:15 AM ET (US)            

I was at a boat supply store yesterday and I notice they have this ring/device that you can drop down to your anchor when it's stuck.

posted 03-10-2009 09:04 AM ET (US)            

Nylon stretches 10% to 15% at working load, and up to 50% at breaking strength.
That is a lot of recoil distance anytime up to the breaking point. Unless you have seen it or put a lot of thought into it, these events are difficult to imagine.

Sometimes we do not put the whole picture in focus. What is the cost of the anchor and line, vs the admission of losing them.

Good luck to us all.

posted 03-10-2009 09:26 AM ET (US)         

Furthermore, if you can't get your anchor up from the bow, DO NOT tie it to the stern. If you anchor in areas with strong currents, you can inadvertently end up with your anchor rode in your prop. With your stern to the current, the same thing can happen where the stern goes down and fills with water.

posted 03-10-2009 10:10 AM ET (US)            

http://cdn-2-service.phanfare.com/images/4892322_2160384_31032286_Web_3/ Image-4892322-31032286-2-Web_0_53be23da739a129f074fa5c62a1c9020_1

The stern on the Everglades 211c is not designed this way. As soon as the stern started to submerge the water broached the back of the boat.

posted 03-10-2009 10:49 AM ET (US)            

Moral of the story, Just cut the darn line ! Bring along a sharp knife.

In the case of the football players and the everglade boat. Detach the anchor from the boat and put a float on it. You can always come back next time to retrieve it.

posted 03-10-2009 11:53 AM ET (US)            

I wonder what the guy meant by saying this:

"If they had been wearing a PLB of some sort then there may have been some possibility of survival."

posted 03-10-2009 12:20 PM ET (US)            

If the wind was blowing 20 kts and the seas were picking up and I was 20-30 miles off shore....I would cut that line in a heartbeat. Never, ever tie it off to a stern cleat in those conditions.

posted 03-10-2009 01:37 PM ET (US)            

If you never go out in a boat, you eliminate 100% of the risk.

Maximum security. It only exists in prison, and even then, it is a myth.

No, you can indeed learn many small lessons from this tragedy, including what to do in the real world - when you find yourself in a predicament due to your own previous mistakes. You can learn how to save yourself from your own mistakes.

So they went out. The very act itself did not account for the tragedy - it contributed. Lots of people who boat frequently find themselves in situations which they did not intend or did not foresee. What you do in that situation is critical...and where many of these lessons can be taught.

We all start and progress to different points on the "seamanship" timeline. We can all learn certain things from this event that may help us at each of those stages in the progression of becoming a good captain.

What is a learning for one is old news to another. What is profound to another may be missed by someone with less experience who doesn't understand the depths of the lesson...yet.

I know one thing: I've learned that sacrificing a fender to mark my anchor is a good idea if I can't get it to release from the sea floor - I can come back in better conditions to try for a better result.

posted 03-10-2009 01:43 PM ET (US)            

Having said all of the above, I was not there and they may have tried the very method I described with no success and until I see an interview with the survivor I will withhold judgement. I've been in to many tight spots when things happened way to fast to be judgemental at this point.

posted 03-10-2009 02:09 PM ET (US)         

Slowly backing your vessel in the opposite direction in which the anchor was set will often dislodge it with minimal effort and risk. If it still wont budge, then by all means, cut her loose. If a 90 second exercise like that is too much to undertake as a captain, perhaps boating in general is asking too much.

posted 03-10-2009 02:20 PM ET (US)            

"Protect yourself from yourself, you are your own worst enemy"

posted 03-10-2009 02:33 PM ET (US)            

Incidentally re: freeing a stuck anchor:

I have a Bruce anchor and have attached the chain to the front of the anchor, and zip-tied three medium sized zip ties along the shank so the chain is "free" at the aft part. This set-up allows me to yank on that puppy and break those zip ties free, which immediately allows me to free the anchor as it is pulled "backwards" out of the hole it has dug, instead of "through" the mud it is buried in.

Something to think about....and it is theory. I've never had to try to implement this strategy to remove that anchor.

posted 03-10-2009 02:43 PM ET (US)         

I have always used the method you've described for freeing an anchor with success. I'd also recommend the Chapman's guide for any boater, it is the definitive source for information on just about anything related to the operation of a boat.

Buckda,

posted 03-10-2009 03:59 PM ET (US)            

Jeff

posted 03-10-2009 07:32 PM ET (US)            

Great advise previously.
Seems like everyone is convinced to carry a knife now.

Maybe I missed it, I might add,
Sometimes you dont need to cut the rope, just connect a small buoy or fender to the bitter end of the anchor rope and let it go.
Mark the way point, go home, party down Garth.
Now youve got a good reason to come back later when the weather is nice to get it.

Beware, pulling against a stuck anchor or crab pot using the bow cleat in fwd gear can flip a boat just as easy as using the stern cleat. Ive never flipped but come as close as I ever want to and now use the following method.

Disclaimer: Practice backing against a current or wind til you have the feel down pat. The anchor buoy will always be downstream or downwind of the anchor.
OK.
If you have a little current, good help (again, fair weather retrieval) and a good pike pole, upstream of the buoy, sneak up on the buoy so the crew can grab the rope from the bow long before it is a factor to get to the prop. Dont secure the anchor line to the bow yet. Start backing upstream while crew takes up slack. Once you start paying out slack, take a couple wraps on the line and continue to back easy. Get a feel. Things ok? back a little harder. You should expect the current to set you sideways, this is good to pull different directions trying to break suction on the anchor. Dont back hard at any point yet. Dont pull past 90 degrees or you will set the anchor harder. Basically these are trial runs to make sure you, your crew, your boat, the current and wind are all on the same page.
If any factor is a problem, dont hesitate to bag it.

OK, everything is cool. Now you can start using surge power as you back. Come fwd a little, then back til the line comes tight. This surge power will pull your bow around or down a little but it wont flip your boat. Instead of the transom digging in, the surge will raise the transom and try to cavitate the engine. Be ready for this, the weight/momentum of the boat surge is going to free the anchor, not horsepower.

Ive even used the momentum of a log connected to another that is buried in the sand to free it.

Work off the bow. Practice backing against the current or making downstream landings with a single engine all the time. It isnt easy, always keep your escape route in mind. You will soon find out if your linkage needs fine tuned. Use the least amount of HP you can. If you are gaining on your destination, be patient, dont mess with it. One day you wont even mess with scrambling out to the bow to get a line, you will always land stern first under control and slowly rise out of your seat and grab a stern line, bump it into gear and the bow will come around as you meander fwd like a stroll in the park.

posted 03-10-2009 08:27 PM ET (US)            

http://www.thehulltruth.com/dockside-chat/212922-unsinkable-saved-his-life-4.html

posted 03-10-2009 08:40 PM ET (US)            

"Would I rely on or incorporate a turtled hull as part of my safety plan?.........probably not. Is a turtled hull more easily spotted by searchers?.........probably but don't count on it."

With many hours spent looking out of a C-130 doing 200 MPH at 100 feet looking for lost souls I can say that the ONLY situation that I would leave a boat, turtled or not, would be if it was on fire.

If a person is floating in the sea, the only thing that is above water and visible is your head and the top of your shoulders. Much easier to spot a needle in a haystack, believe me.

Even if the boat does burn, it will only go down to the waterline or to a point where the water will put it out. Stick with whatever is left. If it is just a cooler lid, keep it with you. The bigger that you make yourself the better chances of the Coasties finding you.

posted 03-11-2009 10:19 AM ET (US)            

So here's what I'm going to do - Towboater used the work "practice". When the ice is gone and I get the Outrage over here and I get a new anchor, I'm going to go out and practice setting and retrieving my anchor in various conditions. I will also find a new spot for my yellow knife where I know it will always be.

posted 03-11-2009 02:08 PM ET (US)            

If you buy it separately, the buoy ball needs to be big enough to hold the weight of your anchor and chain by itself.

Avid small boat fishermen around here that need to move around a lot often prefer sacrificing the deck space in return for easy anchor retrieval.

Simply put the boat in gear and idle ahead angling off enough to make way without risking the anchor line foul in the prop.
The combination of a slight pull and lift as the buoy slides down the anchor rope will pull anchor right up to the ball and the check valve gizmo holds it when it bottoms out. Take it out of gear and retrieve.

A lot of guys with Cabin boats also have a long strap and D ring clipped into the bight of the anchor rope on the boat side of the buoy then secure it to the midships cleat. When the anchor comes up via buoy, they untie the strap and pull the bight of the anchor rope up on the aft deck then retrieve the anchor from the stern. This reduces prop issues and eliminates keeping the line tight and swinging a pike pole around trying to grab the bight from the stern when you have a lot of passengers on deck.
I feed the anchor rope into a 5 gal bucket and drop it from the stern also and seldom use the bow except to adjust the length one way or the other.

Other times (various cabin boats) I have run the anchor rope thru the pulpit and then burn it around the outside of the railings and secure it midships. If we get a fish-on, it is faster to untie and flip the rope out of the pulpit than scurry up to the bow to do the same. And usually it is MY monster fish that requires chasing it down and I need to handle both jobs. smiley face here.

Well, Nav locks are down for repairs, been fun, now its time to get back to work.

posted 03-11-2009 02:15 PM ET (US)            

I doubt this system is intended to "break out" a deeply set anchor, but rather to raise one already broken out up to the surface in deep water.

posted 03-11-2009 05:22 PM ET (US)            

With the amount of news coverage on this whole thing if this is what happened it would be all over the news outlets.

Nothing personal, just would like to see an offical report on the whole accident before I accept it as the gospel.

posted 03-11-2009 07:13 PM ET (US)            

Also there is no need to remind me that I should believe everything I gain from the internet. After 40+ posts I figured someone would call me out over this post and that is why I was careful to not make myself the "source" and did my best up front to point that out.

posted 03-11-2009 08:01 PM ET (US)         

If you fish wrecks or artificial reefs,the "Mighty Mite", is the way to go.

http://www.boatersworld.com/product/159190040.htm

Here is a nice video of the use of a ball to retrieve a Mighty Mite taken on the Atlantic off SC coast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwiNDQW_r08

posted 03-12-2009 12:15 AM ET (US)            

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T8GdSvvL84&feature=related

Thanks - I might get me one for the Outrage 17.

posted 03-12-2009 09:18 AM ET (US)            

http://www.cabelas.com/prod-1/0037213018123a.shtml

posted 03-12-2009 09:24 AM ET (US)            

http://www.cabelas.com/prod-1/0037213018123a.shtml

posted 03-13-2009 07:35 PM ET (US)            

I learned the hard way through practical experience about forty years ago while in high school. Had built a eight foot pram in junior high shop class a few years earlier for my 3 1/2 Montgomery Ward's motor. Headed down the Potomac close to the C&O tow path, had the bright idea of stopping to drop a line to fish, held one of my oars up against a downstream tree branch, boat stopped but the strong spring current against the flat stern caused one corner to dip instantly capsizing the little boat. Never saw it again and hugged a tree limb over the river until rescued. I was know by some as Captain Glub Glub for the rest of my sophomore year.

Sad to say but the average boat owner(present company excluded) today probably doesn't even know how to tie to a cleat.

posted 03-13-2009 08:41 PM ET (US)            

I've seen all kinds of wierd ways to cleat off a boat. Most like to use all of the remaining line and keep wraping around the cleat until all line is gone or run out of cleat space.

Here's the best and safest way to do it. How many can honestly say they do it this way?

posted 03-14-2009 05:11 AM ET (US)            

That is indeed a great site and chock full of interesting information. Great learning tool for beginners and refreshers.

Thanks for putting that back up -

posted 03-14-2009 12:57 PM ET (US)            

Its amazing how much you can learn about a Mariners boating experience by just watching them secure a line to a cleat.
Is it possible to spend months and months of time and many dollars restoring a boat and then look like a fool the minute you tie a rope to the cleat? hehe.

For those of you who watched Haps demo, here are a few more tidbits.

DEMO is correct = under, under, figure 8 at least 3 times THEN HITCH if you are going to carry a load.
The other demo only takes 1 or two figure 8s, if that line comes under a heavy load, it will cinch like a clove hitch.
ALWAYS TAKE AT LEAST 3 FIGURE 8's before you hitch.

For small light boats with small cleats, big ropes or if you are short lined, go under, under, THEN DOUBLE HITCH...no figure 8s. The second hitch is just insurance. Actually I used this knot a LOT on all my boats, but always in a situation I know I will be able to get slack to untie it. I know it is pointless to go to that line to try to untie it if it is not slack.
So, I bump the boat in gear to get slack, then untie it.

I teach my crew clove hitching a cleat is a MARINERS MORTAL SIN. Hitching right off the bat is not a clove hitch, you will recognize a clove hitch, once it cinches, you cant untie it with slack from either side!

Another thing I see a lot...getting petty here...
Many boats have cleats with eyes or holes in the middle you can run a rope thru. We call this DIPPING or dip the line thru the cleat. Then, either figure 8 or hitch right off the bat if you are short lined. The only time you need to dip is when the rope is leading DOWN from above. Dipping eliminates the risk slack might untie itself or become a tangled up mess if you need to reverse the lead. If the hole is big enough, you can dip the bight or the end thru depending on how long the rope is. I get a kick outa dipped lines that lead up to the cleat, ahh, its ok, just overkill.

posted 03-14-2009 02:19 PM ET (US)            

I think that most of us that have restored, and/or built a few boats know our way around boating and boats,hoho. Now fishing may be another matter. as its hard to work on boats, and be out on the water every day, as that`s the only way to learn where the fish are.

One thing I noticed in Coast Guard boot camp,and was surprised at the non boaters that joined up. Most of them never coiled a line before, and the way they did it was to fold their arm upright, and coil the line around their elbow and wrist. They were imedietly labeled as"Clothline"
sailors and it always was good for 40 pushups. They learned fast.

rich(Binkie)