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Author Topic:   Oil Level - False Indication on Dip Stick

Waccamaw Whaler posted 05-20-2009 10:20 PM ET (US)
About 2 weeks go I changed the oil & filter on my new Yamaha F90. I drained all the oil leaving the engine sit with the plug out for over an hour while I did something else. I then replaced 4.55 qt. of oil per spec. topping it off as I checked the dip stick.
Today, before going out, I checked the oil to be certain it was OK. The dip stick indicated I had too much oil. The level was probably 3" above the top level on the knurled high level. I made certain the engine was in a complete vertical position and left it sit severl hours checking the level several times. The level stayed at about +3". The temperature was in the 70s.
Being concerned I drained the oil and measured it. I had roughly 5 1/2 quarts. The Oil was dirty but there was no evidence of any water etc.
I had the right amount of oil so why was it so high on the dip stick?

jimh posted 05-20-2009 10:28 PM ET (US)
Not too long ago someone posted a picture of the text that explains the oil fill procedure of a Yamaha motor. Since the text was posted as a picture of the text and not as text, you can't find it by searching. If anyone happens to recall where the picture of the text is located, perhaps they could append a link to the picture of the text that gives the explanation.
Jefecinco posted 05-21-2009 08:30 AM ET (US)
What follows is speculation.
Engines in general have areas where oil can be trapped while draining. A way to help ensure all oil is drained is to first drain the oil with the engine level. Next, remove and drain the oil filter. Then, cycle the engine trim from level to fully raised. Leave the engine fully raised for about five minutes. Then trim the engine to the fully lowered position for five minutes. Repeat the the raising and lowering process. Return the engine to the level position.
I forgot to mention, before removing the oil drain plug remove the oil fill cap. Leave the cap off during the aforementioned process.
Butch
Waccamaw Whaler posted 05-21-2009 11:21 AM ET (US)
Butch, I agree 100% with your speculation regarding draining the oil. However, my concern began before I drained the oil.
Are you also speculating that the engine may always have the potential to "trap" oil and therefore the dip stick reading may, on occassion, not be accurate?
It's one thing if I know I put the correct amount of oil in and the dip stick reads high but it's something entirely different if the oil level is actually low but the dip stick indicates a higher level.
Mumbo Jumbo posted 05-21-2009 11:45 AM ET (US)
The Unknown
As we know,
There are known knowns.
There are things we know we know.
We also know
There are known unknowns.
That is to say
We know there are some things
We do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns,
The ones we don't know
We don't know.
—Feb. 12, 2002, Field Marshall von Rumsfeld

glen e posted 05-21-2009 12:02 PM ET (US)
Sorry Jim, I only have it as a JPG embedded on my site:
http://www.veradoclub.com/smf/index.php?topic=95.0
Tohsgib posted 05-21-2009 12:08 PM ET (US)
You said you put in 4.55qts and removed 5.5qts...I would guess you found your problem and a quart did not drain. With any engine you go by the dipstick unless you are not certain that it was replaced. My Suzuki always reads a tad overfull when I follow the directions but I am not always certain I have it perfectly level. With it just a "tad" overfull I leave it alone. 3" is not a tad, that is major.
Stevebaz posted 05-21-2009 01:40 PM ET (US)
Did you run the motor and check the oil level again so that the oil filter get filled thus lowering the over fill condition.
Stevebaz posted 05-21-2009 01:40 PM ET (US)
Did you run the motor and check the oil level again so that the oil filter get filled thus lowering the over fill condition.
Waccamaw Whaler posted 05-21-2009 03:42 PM ET (US)
I was incorrect, I ment to say I removed about 4.5 qts. (not 5.5).
Yes, I did run the motor to check the level.
I stopped by the Yamaha dealer this morning. I was told not to initially put in the 4.5 quarts but rather just four. I was told that as long as the level was between the high & low marks I should take the boat out and run it awhile then check the level and top it off as necessary.
He said that the closer to the full mark he oil is the less oil, proportionitely, it will take to reach the top level. As an example, he said to think of it as an upside down funnel with the majority of the oil going into the large area.
Ridge Runner posted 05-21-2009 08:04 PM ET (US)
When I change the oil and filter on my twin Yamaha F115's I only add 4 quarts. This will show a reading of about 3/4's on the low to high mark on the stick. Of course when I change the oil it's always at the high mark - because these engines "make" oil. It does make it easy that you only have to buy one gallon containers of oil.
jimh posted 05-21-2009 09:24 PM ET (US)
Glen--Thanks. That's what I was remembering.
GRAND NUSSIE posted 05-22-2009 10:25 AM ET (US)
Do I want to trade my simple, trouble free 2 stroke for a new 4 stroke?? HAHAHA :-)
Tohsgib posted 05-22-2009 10:29 AM ET (US)
You won't have to trade it because the ethanol will clog a jet in your carbs and you will stuff a piston due to a lean condition. Then you will have to buy a new engine.
GRAND NUSSIE posted 05-23-2009 09:16 AM ET (US)
Tohs----you have a point there---wait until I relay that info to my wife!
GRAND NUSSIE posted 05-23-2009 09:20 AM ET (US)
By the way---- I've busted two pistons and a con rod---different instances--and Larry, if you are looking on, all on Mercs :-)
deepwater posted 05-23-2009 09:44 AM ET (US)
I have heard from many ppl and read that some engines will hold lots of trapped oil,, But not to the extent that i have seen when taking one apart and rebuilding one,,at the most 1/2 a cup from all the small low areas up around the valves and push rods and clinging to the textured sides of a big V8,,Where are these deep pits that hold up to a 1/2 a QT located?
Jefecinco posted 05-23-2009 10:33 AM ET (US)
Deep,
I don't know about "Deep" pits but there are a lot of passageways for oil. As you know oil can be a little resistant to flow sometimes. Passageways can hold oil if not well vented and perfectly level both front to rear and side to side.
Before draining oil I operate an engine at idle until the thermostst operates. The hot oil then seems to drain more readily and fully than does cold oil.
After draing all the oil one can drain and refilling the crankcase the same passageways can sometimes fail to fill. If the maximum engine oil capacity is used as the quantity to use when refilling it is possible to slightly overfill the engine. The appearance of overfill can be somewhat exacerbated by any air in a passageway.
Engine manuals generally state that it is harmful to operate an engine with an over filled crankcase. Therefore most owners are more than a little cautious about an over fill condition.
After changing oil I usually start the engine and allow it to idle for long enough to operate the thermostat. I then check the dip stick to ensure the level is appropriate.
Call me "old school" but that's the way I was trained to change oil.
Butch
jimh posted 05-23-2009 11:01 AM ET (US)
For the proper procedure to make oil level measurements on Yamaha four-cycle engines, please see

Yamaha Four-Cycle Engine Oil Level Measurement
http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/016715.html
This may be the same material as provided as a picture of text in other resources.
deepwater posted 05-23-2009 11:10 AM ET (US)
Ok i just never saw as much as some ppl have reported,,My toyota and several small trks before it never leaked and never needed topping off 5 qts went in and all but 1/2 to 3/4 cup came out 4000 miles later no matter how the truck was sitting,,im going to try and google that up about holding oil in the block,, someone has to know if its a design flaw or what
deepwater posted 05-23-2009 02:42 PM ET (US)
After an hour googling,,over full indicators were,, too much oil was added in the first place ,,oil was checked too soon after filling and oil had not drained down to pan because oil was thick and galleries were small,,sludge build up plugged oil return gallery trapping oil in head area,,oil return holes in head improperly cleaned out at time of casting trapping oil in head,,,,nothing about it holding oil unless the motor was serviced poorly over a long time,, overheated causing oil to sludge up and plug a hole or a factory defect,,it must be a factory defect if its a new motor or you abused it and gummed it up ,,thats #1 & #2
Waccamaw Whaler posted 05-23-2009 08:01 PM ET (US)
I had the boat out about 4 hours today. When I got home I checked the oil and it was down about 1/2" below the max fill level. That's with only adding 4 qts of oil rather than the 4.5 specified. I didn't top it off but it appears that the 4.5 qts. is "somewhere" around the proper quantity.
deepwater posted 05-24-2009 08:00 AM ET (US)
As long as it shows in the hash mark area that should be good,,I guess the smaller the oil pan the greater the impression is that its way over full on the dip stick and i would assume they start at the full level and run the hash marks down and have to put enough of them on the stick so you can see them as well as indicate the low or below oil level,,The importiant thing is to check your oil often and change it often as well
BlueMax posted 05-24-2009 12:03 PM ET (US)
One thing I did not see here was the thought to run the engine for a few minutes prior to draining the oil, thus making it more "fluid" and enabling it to more easily flow (out) during the "draining-period" - then refill; check; run and check again. This may eliminate some of the "extra" (i.e. "left-over") oil remaining inside the engine crevices due to the fact that it was not in that aforementioned "more fluid state" to begin with and so does not completely drain, or drain as fast, when the plug is initially pulled.
Max
BlueMax posted 05-25-2009 02:26 PM ET (US)
Look at the Big Brain on Max.....
Gee, looks like I posted some psuedo-intellectual gibberish simply to say, "Did you try warming up the oil before draining it?"
Ayiyi.
jimh posted 05-25-2009 03:12 PM ET (US)
I cannot believe we are now 24 articles deep on how to measure the oil level in the oil sump of a four-cycle outboard motor.
This is why most people prefer a two-cycle motor.
deepwater posted 05-25-2009 07:29 PM ET (US)
Hey Max ^@^,,what else do ya warm up before ya drain it
Marsh posted 05-27-2009 09:25 PM ET (US)
I have the exact same problem on my Mercury 115 hp 4-stroke. My solution is simple: I stop filling with new oil when the dipstick reads "full".
Before, if I simply, blindly, refilled with the quantity of oil called for in the manual, the dip stick revealed a severe over-filled condition. Thus my problem was whether to believe the dip stick, or the manual. I posted a thread on here somewhere about it some time back.
Solution: I use 3.5 quarts instead of 4.5 quarts. Saves money, too!
Marsh


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Author	Topic: Oil Level - False Indication on Dip Stick
Waccamaw Whaler	posted 05-20-2009 10:20 PM ET (US) About 2 weeks go I changed the oil & filter on my new Yamaha F90. I drained all the oil leaving the engine sit with the plug out for over an hour while I did something else. I then replaced 4.55 qt. of oil per spec. topping it off as I checked the dip stick. Today, before going out, I checked the oil to be certain it was OK. The dip stick indicated I had too much oil. The level was probably 3" above the top level on the knurled high level. I made certain the engine was in a complete vertical position and left it sit severl hours checking the level several times. The level stayed at about +3". The temperature was in the 70s. Being concerned I drained the oil and measured it. I had roughly 5 1/2 quarts. The Oil was dirty but there was no evidence of any water etc. I had the right amount of oil so why was it so high on the dip stick?
jimh	posted 05-20-2009 10:28 PM ET (US) Not too long ago someone posted a picture of the text that explains the oil fill procedure of a Yamaha motor. Since the text was posted as a picture of the text and not as text, you can't find it by searching. If anyone happens to recall where the picture of the text is located, perhaps they could append a link to the picture of the text that gives the explanation.
Jefecinco	posted 05-21-2009 08:30 AM ET (US) What follows is speculation. Engines in general have areas where oil can be trapped while draining. A way to help ensure all oil is drained is to first drain the oil with the engine level. Next, remove and drain the oil filter. Then, cycle the engine trim from level to fully raised. Leave the engine fully raised for about five minutes. Then trim the engine to the fully lowered position for five minutes. Repeat the the raising and lowering process. Return the engine to the level position. I forgot to mention, before removing the oil drain plug remove the oil fill cap. Leave the cap off during the aforementioned process. Butch
Waccamaw Whaler	posted 05-21-2009 11:21 AM ET (US) Butch, I agree 100% with your speculation regarding draining the oil. However, my concern began before I drained the oil. Are you also speculating that the engine may always have the potential to "trap" oil and therefore the dip stick reading may, on occassion, not be accurate? It's one thing if I know I put the correct amount of oil in and the dip stick reads high but it's something entirely different if the oil level is actually low but the dip stick indicates a higher level.
Mumbo Jumbo	posted 05-21-2009 11:45 AM ET (US) The Unknown As we know, There are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know There are known unknowns. That is to say We know there are some things We do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, The ones we don't know We don't know. —Feb. 12, 2002, Field Marshall von Rumsfeld
glen e	posted 05-21-2009 12:02 PM ET (US) Sorry Jim, I only have it as a JPG embedded on my site: http://www.veradoclub.com/smf/index.php?topic=95.0
Tohsgib	posted 05-21-2009 12:08 PM ET (US) You said you put in 4.55qts and removed 5.5qts...I would guess you found your problem and a quart did not drain. With any engine you go by the dipstick unless you are not certain that it was replaced. My Suzuki always reads a tad overfull when I follow the directions but I am not always certain I have it perfectly level. With it just a "tad" overfull I leave it alone. 3" is not a tad, that is major.
Stevebaz	posted 05-21-2009 01:40 PM ET (US) Did you run the motor and check the oil level again so that the oil filter get filled thus lowering the over fill condition.
Stevebaz	posted 05-21-2009 01:40 PM ET (US) Did you run the motor and check the oil level again so that the oil filter get filled thus lowering the over fill condition.
Waccamaw Whaler	posted 05-21-2009 03:42 PM ET (US) I was incorrect, I ment to say I removed about 4.5 qts. (not 5.5). Yes, I did run the motor to check the level. I stopped by the Yamaha dealer this morning. I was told not to initially put in the 4.5 quarts but rather just four. I was told that as long as the level was between the high & low marks I should take the boat out and run it awhile then check the level and top it off as necessary. He said that the closer to the full mark he oil is the less oil, proportionitely, it will take to reach the top level. As an example, he said to think of it as an upside down funnel with the majority of the oil going into the large area.
Ridge Runner	posted 05-21-2009 08:04 PM ET (US) When I change the oil and filter on my twin Yamaha F115's I only add 4 quarts. This will show a reading of about 3/4's on the low to high mark on the stick. Of course when I change the oil it's always at the high mark - because these engines "make" oil. It does make it easy that you only have to buy one gallon containers of oil.
jimh	posted 05-21-2009 09:24 PM ET (US) Glen--Thanks. That's what I was remembering.
GRAND NUSSIE	posted 05-22-2009 10:25 AM ET (US) Do I want to trade my simple, trouble free 2 stroke for a new 4 stroke?? HAHAHA :-)
Tohsgib	posted 05-22-2009 10:29 AM ET (US) You won't have to trade it because the ethanol will clog a jet in your carbs and you will stuff a piston due to a lean condition. Then you will have to buy a new engine.
GRAND NUSSIE	posted 05-23-2009 09:16 AM ET (US) Tohs----you have a point there---wait until I relay that info to my wife!
GRAND NUSSIE	posted 05-23-2009 09:20 AM ET (US) By the way---- I've busted two pistons and a con rod---different instances--and Larry, if you are looking on, all on Mercs :-)
deepwater	posted 05-23-2009 09:44 AM ET (US) I have heard from many ppl and read that some engines will hold lots of trapped oil,, But not to the extent that i have seen when taking one apart and rebuilding one,,at the most 1/2 a cup from all the small low areas up around the valves and push rods and clinging to the textured sides of a big V8,,Where are these deep pits that hold up to a 1/2 a QT located?
Jefecinco	posted 05-23-2009 10:33 AM ET (US) Deep, I don't know about "Deep" pits but there are a lot of passageways for oil. As you know oil can be a little resistant to flow sometimes. Passageways can hold oil if not well vented and perfectly level both front to rear and side to side. Before draining oil I operate an engine at idle until the thermostst operates. The hot oil then seems to drain more readily and fully than does cold oil. After draing all the oil one can drain and refilling the crankcase the same passageways can sometimes fail to fill. If the maximum engine oil capacity is used as the quantity to use when refilling it is possible to slightly overfill the engine. The appearance of overfill can be somewhat exacerbated by any air in a passageway. Engine manuals generally state that it is harmful to operate an engine with an over filled crankcase. Therefore most owners are more than a little cautious about an over fill condition. After changing oil I usually start the engine and allow it to idle for long enough to operate the thermostat. I then check the dip stick to ensure the level is appropriate. Call me "old school" but that's the way I was trained to change oil. Butch
jimh	posted 05-23-2009 11:01 AM ET (US) For the proper procedure to make oil level measurements on Yamaha four-cycle engines, please see Yamaha Four-Cycle Engine Oil Level Measurement http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/016715.html This may be the same material as provided as a picture of text in other resources.
deepwater	posted 05-23-2009 11:10 AM ET (US) Ok i just never saw as much as some ppl have reported,,My toyota and several small trks before it never leaked and never needed topping off 5 qts went in and all but 1/2 to 3/4 cup came out 4000 miles later no matter how the truck was sitting,,im going to try and google that up about holding oil in the block,, someone has to know if its a design flaw or what
deepwater	posted 05-23-2009 02:42 PM ET (US) After an hour googling,,over full indicators were,, too much oil was added in the first place ,,oil was checked too soon after filling and oil had not drained down to pan because oil was thick and galleries were small,,sludge build up plugged oil return gallery trapping oil in head area,,oil return holes in head improperly cleaned out at time of casting trapping oil in head,,,,nothing about it holding oil unless the motor was serviced poorly over a long time,, overheated causing oil to sludge up and plug a hole or a factory defect,,it must be a factory defect if its a new motor or you abused it and gummed it up ,,thats #1 & #2
Waccamaw Whaler	posted 05-23-2009 08:01 PM ET (US) I had the boat out about 4 hours today. When I got home I checked the oil and it was down about 1/2" below the max fill level. That's with only adding 4 qts of oil rather than the 4.5 specified. I didn't top it off but it appears that the 4.5 qts. is "somewhere" around the proper quantity.
deepwater	posted 05-24-2009 08:00 AM ET (US) As long as it shows in the hash mark area that should be good,,I guess the smaller the oil pan the greater the impression is that its way over full on the dip stick and i would assume they start at the full level and run the hash marks down and have to put enough of them on the stick so you can see them as well as indicate the low or below oil level,,The importiant thing is to check your oil often and change it often as well
BlueMax	posted 05-24-2009 12:03 PM ET (US) One thing I did not see here was the thought to run the engine for a few minutes prior to draining the oil, thus making it more "fluid" and enabling it to more easily flow (out) during the "draining-period" - then refill; check; run and check again. This may eliminate some of the "extra" (i.e. "left-over") oil remaining inside the engine crevices due to the fact that it was not in that aforementioned "more fluid state" to begin with and so does not completely drain, or drain as fast, when the plug is initially pulled. Max
BlueMax	posted 05-25-2009 02:26 PM ET (US) Look at the Big Brain on Max..... Gee, looks like I posted some psuedo-intellectual gibberish simply to say, "Did you try warming up the oil before draining it?" Ayiyi.
jimh	posted 05-25-2009 03:12 PM ET (US) I cannot believe we are now 24 articles deep on how to measure the oil level in the oil sump of a four-cycle outboard motor. This is why most people prefer a two-cycle motor.
deepwater	posted 05-25-2009 07:29 PM ET (US) Hey Max ^@^,,what else do ya warm up before ya drain it
Marsh	posted 05-27-2009 09:25 PM ET (US) I have the exact same problem on my Mercury 115 hp 4-stroke. My solution is simple: I stop filling with new oil when the dipstick reads "full". Before, if I simply, blindly, refilled with the quantity of oil called for in the manual, the dip stick revealed a severe over-filled condition. Thus my problem was whether to believe the dip stick, or the manual. I posted a thread on here somewhere about it some time back. Solution: I use 3.5 quarts instead of 4.5 quarts. Saves money, too! Marsh