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Author Topic:   Boat Show Anecdotes

jimh posted 03-14-2010 12:35 AM ET (US)
I finally made it to a boat show this winter. The show was a smaller show, focused on inland lake boating, with lots of pontoon boats and ski boats. Not too much emphasis on fishing boats. Here are a few anecdotes from conversations I had there.
The local Boston Whaler dealer was at the show with four boats, all 2009 model year leftovers: 130 SPORT, 150 MONTAUK, 170 MONTAUK, and 180 DAUNTLESS. The 130 SPORT was priced just over $10,000. They sold that boat today at the show. The salesman said he had four of these 130 SPORT boats in stock. Sold three at the previous boat show, and with the fourth one today he was now sold-out of his 2009 130 SPORTS. I thought the price was quite good. I remember many years ago seeing a classic 13-footer all decked out at a boat show and the price tag was almost $10,000. The current model had a lot of value for that price.
I don't recall the 150 MONTAUK price.
The 170 MONTAUK price was about $28,000, but the salesman said he just got a fax from Whaler offering factory incentives and he could come down $2,000.
The 180 DAUNTLESS was $48,000. My reaction: Wow--for a one-foot longer hull you really pay a $20,000 premium. The dealer said there was about $7,000 difference just in the motor: a 150-HP Verado compared to a 90-HP Veradito.
I climbed on board the 180 DAUNTLESS. The Mercury DTS throttle and shift were set up in such a way that when the shift lever was in the NEUTRAL position the handle blocked the view of the NEUTRAL lamp annunciator. I thought that was not very good. What is the point of having a lamp indicate you are in NEUTRAL if you cannot see the lamp? Both sitting at the RPS or standing, the handle blocked the lamp from view. This happens because the angle of the console on which the remote shift and throttle controls mount is wrong. The boat had a Clarion audio amplifier and speaker set up. There was an input jack for a 1/8-inch stereo plug--the iPod jack. Also interesting was another jack for plugging in a USB drive. I had never seen that before. The OEM electronics on the boat were Raymarine, rigged at the factory.
The Department of Homeland Security had an exhibit. There were some very interesting photographs of X-rays taken at the border showing people hidden in tank trucks and a bus filled with marijuana concealed in the roof. There was also a 25-foot S.A.F.E. boat run by the Border Patrol. The Border Patrol agent explained their mission. Customs and Immigration guard the points of entry, while Border Patrol guards the borders in between. Their 25-footer is on daily patrol from a station set up at the Elizabeth Park marine in the lower Detroit River.
I had seen this boat before and it was set up with Honda V6 four-cycle outboard, but now it had a pair of 225-HP Verado motors. I asked the agent about the change. He said the Honda four-cycle motors came off after 1,800-hours of running. They were running fine, no problems, but they were switched out and a pair of Verado engines put on the transom. The Verado engines lasted 500 hours then had problems with their superchargers. The boat was out of commission for the winter, and had been sent down south for overhaul. The old Verado engines were gone and a new pair were put on. They hadn't had it in the water yet.
The NOAA folks were there with an interesting booth. They had a computer generated model of the wave height on Lake Superior at the time of the sinking of the Edmund Fitzgerald. I am going to look for that graphic on-line. It was very informative. The computer model showed wave height of 9-meters in southeastern Lake Superior.
Talked with a semi-professional tournament fisherman about engines with digital controls. He told me a story about a friend with a Verado on his boat. While running in the St. Clair River at high speed his Verado cut out. He restarted and resumed his course. Later in the day when returning from his fishing grounds, the Verado cut out again. He noticed it was in the same location in the river. He made a loop around and passed through this same area a third time, and the Verado cut out and stopped again. Then he noticed that a high voltage transmission line was crossing the river at this point. Sounded like a good story.
The weather earlier in the week was sunny and 70-degrees. Today it was raining and barely got to 50-degrees. I decided to leave my boat in storage for at least another week.
20dauntless posted 03-14-2010 01:39 AM ET (US)
Glad to see the U.S. Government is switching to U.S. built outboards. Their reliability will obviously give us an advantage in fighting illegal immigration, catching drug runners, and rescuing boaters in trouble.
But seriously, did Border Patrol give any reason for the switch from Honda to Mercury? And besides the 500 hour replacement interval, did the people working the booth provide any insight into their preferences?
jimh posted 03-14-2010 09:46 AM ET (US)
One speculation: the change to the Mercury Verado engine was made to improve performance. The 25-foot S.A.F.E. boat is really quite a beast. Even with twin 225-HP engines, I don't think that boat is a rocket ship. I don't know the total weight, but the boat was on a triple-axle trailer, and it looked like you'd need a 3/4-ton truck to tow it. I was surprised the new Verado engines were only 225-HP models.
ASIDE: I was looking for the specifications for the 25-foot DEFENDER class full-cabin boat from the manufacturer, but I could not find any. I'd appreciate a link to the specifications for this boat.
mjwhaler posted 03-14-2010 11:34 AM ET (US)
Here is a link to the USCG website with specs to the 25' SAFE Boat. Hope this helps answer some questions.
http://www.uscg.mil/INTERNATIONAL/25ft.asp
mjwhaler posted 03-14-2010 11:46 AM ET (US)
I found this link which will probably give most of us more information about the 25' than we will ever want to know, but it looks like the specs start on page 17. Happy reading!
http://www.defenderclass.com/pages/nigerian%20navy/training/ DefenderClassOPS_small.pdf
Tom W Clark posted 03-14-2010 12:21 PM ET (US)
The now ubiquitous 25' S.A.F.E. Boats with a pair of Honda 225 HP outboards will top out at 45 MPH according to the crew of one such boat I talked to here in Seattle.
Yes, they are very heavily laden.
number9 posted 03-14-2010 12:32 PM ET (US)
Doesn't appear the SAFE boat lights meet the regs.
"The masthead or all around white light on power vessels less than 12 meters in length must be at least 1 meter above the red and green side lights."
jimh posted 03-14-2010 12:46 PM ET (US)
Using the specifications from the Coast Guard (as linked above), a 25-foot DEFENDER class full-cabin boat has a displacement of 8,500-lbs at full load. I assume that includes fuel and crew. The maximum speed is 45-nautical miles per hour, which would be about 51-MPH. With twin 225-HP engine, we have 450-HP total. Taking that data to Crouch's Calculator, we can compute a hull constant of
LBS = 8500
HP = 450
MPH = 51
Hull Constant = 222
A calculated hull constant of 222 is lower than I thought was going to be needed to go fit the data to the problem. Hmm--the S.A.F.E. boat hull must be rather efficient, and its aluminum construction not as heavy as I thought.
If we interpret the maximum speed as 45-MPH (that is, statute miles not nautical) we get a Hull Constant of 196. That is in the range of a Boston Whaler boat.
I guess those 25-foot S.A.F.E. boats are fairly zippy. They probably can run down my REVENGE--top speed more like 42 to 43-MPH.
jimh posted 03-14-2010 12:51 PM ET (US)
Re the height of the masthead light: it appears well above the sidelights in the photograph. I don't understand how the inference was made that the navigation lighting on a Coast Guard vessel was non-compliant with the COLREGS. Perhaps we could have an elaboration on that.
David Pendleton posted 03-14-2010 01:03 PM ET (US)
I met up with USCG Station Bayfield's S.A.F.E. boat a few years ago at the Sand Island dock.
We we just walking up the dock to the lighthouse when they arrived, and I turned to watch them come in and tie up. We proceeded up the dock, toured the lighthouse and the grounds and returned to Tampico about an hour later.
The S.A.F.E. boat was still tied up with it's twin Honda engines running.
While talking to the crew, I asked them if they had the engines running the whole time and she informed me that they never shut them off while the boat was on patrol.
I was a little astonished by that and asked, "does that pretty-much mean dawn to dusk?"
She replied, "yes, and then some."
I know very little about modern outboard technology, but I do know if I let my mercruiser idle for hours on end, it would run like crap.
They departed the dock just as we were and took off at what I presumed to be full throttle; and they were gone.
jimh posted 03-14-2010 02:52 PM ET (US)
With the engine running 12-hours a day, it only takes 150-days to accumulate 1,800 hours of Hobbs time. That's about the length of the boating season in the Great Lakes. It sounds like these boats will get new engines annually.
jimh posted 03-14-2010 04:06 PM ET (US)
I found the source of the computer wave height graphic I mentioned above in connection with NOAA and the sinking of the Edmund Fitzgerald. It appears in this technical (but readable) paper:
Reexamination of the 9–10 November 1975 “Edmund Fitzgerald” Storm Using Today’s Technology
BY THOMAS R. HULTQUIST, MICHAEL R. DUTTER, AND DAVID J. SCHWAB
http://www.glerl.noaa.gov/pubs/fulltext/2006/20060016.pdf
Here is the plot of wave height from the model:
mjwhaler posted 03-14-2010 09:42 PM ET (US)
RE: Why the switch to Mercury outboards?
I am purely speculating on why the switch to Mercury by government agencies but according to their website: "Verado comes with the industries [sic] only three year warranty to government agencies". http://www.mercurygovsales.com/technology/verado.php
It appears Honda only offers two years to these agencies. http://marine.honda.com/pdf/warranty/Distributor_Limited_Warranty.pdf
Again, just speculation but it might be enough to make the change. It would also be interesting to see the difference in price awarded to the government under the "GSA" purchasing programs from each outboard manufacturer. The GSA program I understand offers deep discounts to government agencies from what we would all pay at retail.
jimh posted 03-14-2010 11:24 PM ET (US)
A few years ago the State of Florida had on-line a listing of outboard prices to them from various manufacturers. Mercury gave the biggest discounts.
number9 posted 03-15-2010 04:30 AM ET (US)
The all around light didn't appear to be near 3' above the cabin top from the photos viewed. Sides lights are mounted just below. That is why the comment.
Tom W Clark posted 03-15-2010 09:45 AM ET (US)
The mastehead light certainly appears to me to be well over three feet above the sidelights.
pglein posted 03-15-2010 03:48 PM ET (US)
The masthead light is easily 3' above the side lights. Not sure why it matters, though. What are they going to do, ticket themselves?

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Author	Topic: Boat Show Anecdotes
jimh	posted 03-14-2010 12:35 AM ET (US) I finally made it to a boat show this winter. The show was a smaller show, focused on inland lake boating, with lots of pontoon boats and ski boats. Not too much emphasis on fishing boats. Here are a few anecdotes from conversations I had there. The local Boston Whaler dealer was at the show with four boats, all 2009 model year leftovers: 130 SPORT, 150 MONTAUK, 170 MONTAUK, and 180 DAUNTLESS. The 130 SPORT was priced just over $10,000. They sold that boat today at the show. The salesman said he had four of these 130 SPORT boats in stock. Sold three at the previous boat show, and with the fourth one today he was now sold-out of his 2009 130 SPORTS. I thought the price was quite good. I remember many years ago seeing a classic 13-footer all decked out at a boat show and the price tag was almost $10,000. The current model had a lot of value for that price. I don't recall the 150 MONTAUK price. The 170 MONTAUK price was about $28,000, but the salesman said he just got a fax from Whaler offering factory incentives and he could come down $2,000. The 180 DAUNTLESS was $48,000. My reaction: Wow--for a one-foot longer hull you really pay a $20,000 premium. The dealer said there was about $7,000 difference just in the motor: a 150-HP Verado compared to a 90-HP Veradito. I climbed on board the 180 DAUNTLESS. The Mercury DTS throttle and shift were set up in such a way that when the shift lever was in the NEUTRAL position the handle blocked the view of the NEUTRAL lamp annunciator. I thought that was not very good. What is the point of having a lamp indicate you are in NEUTRAL if you cannot see the lamp? Both sitting at the RPS or standing, the handle blocked the lamp from view. This happens because the angle of the console on which the remote shift and throttle controls mount is wrong. The boat had a Clarion audio amplifier and speaker set up. There was an input jack for a 1/8-inch stereo plug--the iPod jack. Also interesting was another jack for plugging in a USB drive. I had never seen that before. The OEM electronics on the boat were Raymarine, rigged at the factory. The Department of Homeland Security had an exhibit. There were some very interesting photographs of X-rays taken at the border showing people hidden in tank trucks and a bus filled with marijuana concealed in the roof. There was also a 25-foot S.A.F.E. boat run by the Border Patrol. The Border Patrol agent explained their mission. Customs and Immigration guard the points of entry, while Border Patrol guards the borders in between. Their 25-footer is on daily patrol from a station set up at the Elizabeth Park marine in the lower Detroit River. I had seen this boat before and it was set up with Honda V6 four-cycle outboard, but now it had a pair of 225-HP Verado motors. I asked the agent about the change. He said the Honda four-cycle motors came off after 1,800-hours of running. They were running fine, no problems, but they were switched out and a pair of Verado engines put on the transom. The Verado engines lasted 500 hours then had problems with their superchargers. The boat was out of commission for the winter, and had been sent down south for overhaul. The old Verado engines were gone and a new pair were put on. They hadn't had it in the water yet. The NOAA folks were there with an interesting booth. They had a computer generated model of the wave height on Lake Superior at the time of the sinking of the Edmund Fitzgerald. I am going to look for that graphic on-line. It was very informative. The computer model showed wave height of 9-meters in southeastern Lake Superior. Talked with a semi-professional tournament fisherman about engines with digital controls. He told me a story about a friend with a Verado on his boat. While running in the St. Clair River at high speed his Verado cut out. He restarted and resumed his course. Later in the day when returning from his fishing grounds, the Verado cut out again. He noticed it was in the same location in the river. He made a loop around and passed through this same area a third time, and the Verado cut out and stopped again. Then he noticed that a high voltage transmission line was crossing the river at this point. Sounded like a good story. The weather earlier in the week was sunny and 70-degrees. Today it was raining and barely got to 50-degrees. I decided to leave my boat in storage for at least another week.
20dauntless	posted 03-14-2010 01:39 AM ET (US) Glad to see the U.S. Government is switching to U.S. built outboards. Their reliability will obviously give us an advantage in fighting illegal immigration, catching drug runners, and rescuing boaters in trouble. But seriously, did Border Patrol give any reason for the switch from Honda to Mercury? And besides the 500 hour replacement interval, did the people working the booth provide any insight into their preferences?
jimh	posted 03-14-2010 09:46 AM ET (US) One speculation: the change to the Mercury Verado engine was made to improve performance. The 25-foot S.A.F.E. boat is really quite a beast. Even with twin 225-HP engines, I don't think that boat is a rocket ship. I don't know the total weight, but the boat was on a triple-axle trailer, and it looked like you'd need a 3/4-ton truck to tow it. I was surprised the new Verado engines were only 225-HP models. ASIDE: I was looking for the specifications for the 25-foot DEFENDER class full-cabin boat from the manufacturer, but I could not find any. I'd appreciate a link to the specifications for this boat.
mjwhaler	posted 03-14-2010 11:34 AM ET (US) Here is a link to the USCG website with specs to the 25' SAFE Boat. Hope this helps answer some questions. http://www.uscg.mil/INTERNATIONAL/25ft.asp
mjwhaler	posted 03-14-2010 11:46 AM ET (US) I found this link which will probably give most of us more information about the 25' than we will ever want to know, but it looks like the specs start on page 17. Happy reading! http://www.defenderclass.com/pages/nigerian%20navy/training/ DefenderClassOPS_small.pdf
Tom W Clark	posted 03-14-2010 12:21 PM ET (US) The now ubiquitous 25' S.A.F.E. Boats with a pair of Honda 225 HP outboards will top out at 45 MPH according to the crew of one such boat I talked to here in Seattle. Yes, they are very heavily laden.
number9	posted 03-14-2010 12:32 PM ET (US) Doesn't appear the SAFE boat lights meet the regs. "The masthead or all around white light on power vessels less than 12 meters in length must be at least 1 meter above the red and green side lights."
jimh	posted 03-14-2010 12:46 PM ET (US) Using the specifications from the Coast Guard (as linked above), a 25-foot DEFENDER class full-cabin boat has a displacement of 8,500-lbs at full load. I assume that includes fuel and crew. The maximum speed is 45-nautical miles per hour, which would be about 51-MPH. With twin 225-HP engine, we have 450-HP total. Taking that data to Crouch's Calculator, we can compute a hull constant of LBS = 8500 HP = 450 MPH = 51 Hull Constant = 222 A calculated hull constant of 222 is lower than I thought was going to be needed to go fit the data to the problem. Hmm--the S.A.F.E. boat hull must be rather efficient, and its aluminum construction not as heavy as I thought. If we interpret the maximum speed as 45-MPH (that is, statute miles not nautical) we get a Hull Constant of 196. That is in the range of a Boston Whaler boat. I guess those 25-foot S.A.F.E. boats are fairly zippy. They probably can run down my REVENGE--top speed more like 42 to 43-MPH.
jimh	posted 03-14-2010 12:51 PM ET (US) Re the height of the masthead light: it appears well above the sidelights in the photograph. I don't understand how the inference was made that the navigation lighting on a Coast Guard vessel was non-compliant with the COLREGS. Perhaps we could have an elaboration on that.
David Pendleton	posted 03-14-2010 01:03 PM ET (US) I met up with USCG Station Bayfield's S.A.F.E. boat a few years ago at the Sand Island dock. We we just walking up the dock to the lighthouse when they arrived, and I turned to watch them come in and tie up. We proceeded up the dock, toured the lighthouse and the grounds and returned to Tampico about an hour later. The S.A.F.E. boat was still tied up with it's twin Honda engines running. While talking to the crew, I asked them if they had the engines running the whole time and she informed me that they never shut them off while the boat was on patrol. I was a little astonished by that and asked, "does that pretty-much mean dawn to dusk?" She replied, "yes, and then some." I know very little about modern outboard technology, but I do know if I let my mercruiser idle for hours on end, it would run like crap. They departed the dock just as we were and took off at what I presumed to be full throttle; and they were gone.
jimh	posted 03-14-2010 02:52 PM ET (US) With the engine running 12-hours a day, it only takes 150-days to accumulate 1,800 hours of Hobbs time. That's about the length of the boating season in the Great Lakes. It sounds like these boats will get new engines annually.
jimh	posted 03-14-2010 04:06 PM ET (US) I found the source of the computer wave height graphic I mentioned above in connection with NOAA and the sinking of the Edmund Fitzgerald. It appears in this technical (but readable) paper: Reexamination of the 9–10 November 1975 “Edmund Fitzgerald” Storm Using Today’s Technology BY THOMAS R. HULTQUIST, MICHAEL R. DUTTER, AND DAVID J. SCHWAB http://www.glerl.noaa.gov/pubs/fulltext/2006/20060016.pdf Here is the plot of wave height from the model:
mjwhaler	posted 03-14-2010 09:42 PM ET (US) RE: Why the switch to Mercury outboards? I am purely speculating on why the switch to Mercury by government agencies but according to their website: "Verado comes with the industries [sic] only three year warranty to government agencies". http://www.mercurygovsales.com/technology/verado.php It appears Honda only offers two years to these agencies. http://marine.honda.com/pdf/warranty/Distributor_Limited_Warranty.pdf Again, just speculation but it might be enough to make the change. It would also be interesting to see the difference in price awarded to the government under the "GSA" purchasing programs from each outboard manufacturer. The GSA program I understand offers deep discounts to government agencies from what we would all pay at retail.
jimh	posted 03-14-2010 11:24 PM ET (US) A few years ago the State of Florida had on-line a listing of outboard prices to them from various manufacturers. Mercury gave the biggest discounts.
number9	posted 03-15-2010 04:30 AM ET (US) The all around light didn't appear to be near 3' above the cabin top from the photos viewed. Sides lights are mounted just below. That is why the comment.
Tom W Clark	posted 03-15-2010 09:45 AM ET (US) The mastehead light certainly appears to me to be well over three feet above the sidelights.
pglein	posted 03-15-2010 03:48 PM ET (US) The masthead light is easily 3' above the side lights. Not sure why it matters, though. What are they going to do, ticket themselves?