posted 03-26-2010 07:50 AM ET (US)            

I don't think it's rocket science why sales are down.

posted 03-26-2010 10:31 AM ET (US)            

When it comes to an 18 and larger people begin to question if it is worth the effort and money right now to jump into a vessel that would likely require, in their mine, a full size tow vehicle. Also, I think the thought of rotted floors and below deck fuel tanks factor into the equation as well. With those that are new to Whalers, or larger Whalers that I am helping right now, these are always the top concerns for them. After that the larger the Whaler the more maintenance, hauling/storage, fuel and upkeep become factors. This is the reason you see 27' at what would have been considered firesale prices just sit on the market. You also see the vessels at the top of the price range with new power wallow on the market forever. Just like with real estate people know prices are low and they want to buy there.

posted 03-26-2010 12:17 PM ET (US)         

More and more, I like my smaller, lightweight, highly efficent 70's era Outrages, and like the 25 less and less. It's simply too big for me now, and costly to tow, operate and store, which is why you can find so cheap. As Jeff says, this will be the trend in the future, as many people who used to be able to afford bigger boats will find themselves unable to buy them, preferring smaller ones, and saddled with rapidly increasing Federal and State tax burdens in our basically bankrupt Nation and States as we turn into a Welfare State. then there are increasing fuel costs. Boating will be around $3.50 a gallon again this summer.

posted 03-26-2010 12:24 PM ET (US)            

Federal, state, county, city budgets are ugly.

Low interest rates helped cause the real estate bubble and low interest rates are causing a huge stock market bubble.

Sovereign debt, trade war with China, home foreclosures and unemployment haven't fully surfaced yet.

So when is the turn around? My guess is 20 years, only because we haven't seen the worst yet.

I agree that the smaller Boston Whalers are going to hold up in price better than expensive larger boats. But the best deals will be with larger boats than not many people want anymore.

posted 03-26-2010 12:29 PM ET (US)            

How much are you selling your 25' Outrage for?

posted 03-26-2010 12:37 PM ET (US)            

I guess I look at it this way:

- low income: won't buy a boat anyway
- middle income: will buy a boat if they feel well off financially
- high income: will buy a boat anyway

and you can replace "boat" with your favorite non-necessity. That's why policies that change the financial well being of the middle class have more effect on the economy than other policies.

posted 03-26-2010 01:04 PM ET (US)            

My guess, it will sell very quickly. Perhaps to Europe.

posted 03-26-2010 02:19 PM ET (US)         

The smaller models, like the Sport, Tender, and Montauk lines, appeal more broadly. They can be used as a tender to a larger boat or as a stand alone boat for people of more modest means. But they are still expensive compared to their competition.

Dauntless, Ventura, and the smaller Conquest and Outrage models might appeal to some in the upper middle class. But with starting prices of ~$45,000, they are very expensive. Concrete definitions of what the "middle class" is are hard to come by. One Wikipedia page has the lower middle class (which is 32% of the population) making $35,000-75,000 a year and the upper middle class (15% of the population) making "from the high 5-figure range to commonly above $100,000." The rich (1% of the population) are defined as making $500,000 or more.

Quite frankly, I don't see how many people from the lower middle class can afford a $45,000 boat, especially without the creative financing and home equity that were present in the past. The upper middle class may be able to, but even making $100,000 a year doesn't leave a lot of room for a big boat payment in addition to a house payment, car payments, college expenses, and health related expenses.

New boats, and especially Boston Whalers, are expensive. The people I know who make ~50k a year are more concerned about sending their kids to college and paying for the necessities. If they were into boating, they would probably (if they could sacrifice elsewhere) purchase a quality used boat.

For kicks I put in some numbers on Whaler's website. A 180 Dauntless has a base price of $45,601. Financed over 60 months with 10% down, the payment would be about $850 a month. Add in storage, maintenance, fuel, and insurance and you'd be pushing $1000 a month. If you are making $100,000 a year, this represents 12% of your earnings. And this is for the smallest and cheapest new Dauntless. It seems to me that these boats are awfully expensive and not too accessible to the majority of American's.

posted 03-26-2010 03:02 PM ET (US)            

BOAT stands for "Break Out Another Thousand"....hahahah, gotcha, good input.

I too think we are on a slippery slope, and have yet to bottom out. The market is jittery, never knowing what new budget surprise may pop up from the hands of the lawmaking elite.

posted 03-26-2010 06:06 PM ET (US)         

And don't forget all those nice foreign cars and outboards they've enjoyed also, putting millions here out of work.

posted 03-26-2010 06:09 PM ET (US)            

Downpayment $4,500

Loan $40,500, 10% interest, 20 year amortization gives monthly payment of $390.83.

$390.83 times 12 months times 20 years equals $93,799.

$4,500 downpayment plus $93,799 in payments equals $98,299.

The above example illustrates that a $45,000 purchase actually costs $98,299 due to financing costs.

But the borrower might be smarter than the average bear because he can walk away from the debt after using the boat until he couldn't afford it.

I paid cash for my new 170 Montauk. :-O

posted 03-26-2010 06:43 PM ET (US)            

However, boats priced right are moving. Priced right means well below what could have been expected even two years ago. Well below!!!

Then you have to consider that many, like me for instance, can't buy another boat before getting rid of the current boat.

It's as though a perfect storm mitigating against selling boats is swirling around us. I can't buy your top tier boat because I cant sell my top tier boat because no one, so far, is willing to give me what I feel I must have for my boat all because the entire boat market is depressed. To a degree, what I feel I must have for my boat is based upon the prices being sought for the boat I may want to buy.

Now, If we all were willing to accept about 25% to 30% less than what we want we could probably make some progress. It does not seem to matter if a boat is absolutely pristine and is a highly desirable boat. If a boat is pristine and highly desirable and priced right for the market it will probably sell faster than a less desirable boat that is in average or above average condition.

We see comments like "What a nice highly desirable boat. I can't believe it hasn't sold." Well, it hasn't sold because it is priced out of the market or it is not being marketed widely.

posted 03-27-2010 10:15 AM ET (US)            

It's truly amazing how painless it is to own and operate a boat when all the expenses are divided three ways. We keep our partnership boat in a slip nine or ten months per year, which would be a financial drain for one person, especially if he/she wasn't using the boat all that often, but split up in thirds, the marina costs are almost inconsequential. And by slipping our boat, we avoid towing costs and hassles, as well as having the boat almost instantly ready for sea. Plus, we've agreed that our partnership boat(s) must have a cuddy or cabin of some sort, so it(they) provide a 'floating Hilton' for partnership members who wish to stay aboard the night before a cruise.

Critical to a well-functioning partnership is a decent sense of humor on the part of all members, grown up respect for one another, plus a commitment to compromise. We run our little group on a consensus-based decision-making model, BTW, rather than taking more formal partnership 'votes.' This avoids ill-feelings on the part of one partner who might have been 'out-voted' by the other two.

Anyway, it's worked well for us. Just something to think about during these rough economic times.

Tony

posted 04-01-2010 09:48 PM ET (US)            

Re: Bennington Marine out of the fiberglass boats business

It is true, Benington was sold earlier this year but only a minority share was bought buy the equity firm out of California, the majority is owned by our Ceo,President and the decision was made to focus on what made us what we are and that is pontoons.

We were previously owned by an investment firm out of Boston btu even with the sales nothing at ground level has changed at all exept our focus is back on pontoons so watch for some interesting things there.

The Glass side was started at a very bad time early in the down turn so they never really got a chance to take off and the glass boat market is pretty saturated any ways.

posted 04-02-2010 12:09 PM ET (US)            

The same people that bought new homes in their new gated communities. The same people that bought new SUVs with built in DVD/Navigation systems. The same people that bought exotic vacations. The same people that bought $12 martinis. The same people that bought $50 steaks at Morton's and Ruth's Chris. The same people that bought real Cuban Cohiba cigars. The same people that bought 50 inch flat screen tvs. Don't you know that we are entitled to have it all?

We just completed the modern day "Roaring Twenties" and I hope history does not repeat itself.