"It" or "She"? Subject pronouns for Boston Whalers

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Author Topic:   "It" or "She"? Subject pronouns for Boston Whalers

elaelap posted 05-18-2010 03:39 PM ET (US)
I find myself swinging back and forth between the subject pronouns "It" and "She" when writing (or talking) about my little Boston Whaler motorboats. While I'm pretty sure that either is correct, what's the consensus opinion of the members here? E.g., is my 16'7" Montauk skiff worthy of a full-fledged "She", or must she (whoops!) remain a mere "It" because of her (whoops!) modest size?
Tony
littleblue posted 05-18-2010 03:43 PM ET (US)
I find myself using "she" most of the time.
gnr posted 05-18-2010 03:46 PM ET (US)
Slow day at the office, eh?
To answer the question though. You have my permission to call your boat whatever you wish.
;-)
burning_hXc_soul posted 05-18-2010 03:58 PM ET (US)
Since you bring it up, why do men refer to their boats as "she"? I'm assuming it comes from some old British navy tradition or something along those lines. I refer to my boat as a "he" because its durable and rugged, not a quality I particularly look for in women haha.
Jeff posted 05-18-2010 04:04 PM ET (US)
Maybe it is a generational thing but, I do not refer to my boat as a she. In fact be it a boat, car or, like toy I rarely hear "she" used as a pronoun by myself or peers.
That said, I do vacillate between "vessel" and "boat" when speaking in general regards to a Boston Whaler.
elaelap posted 05-18-2010 05:02 PM ET (US)
Yeah, same sort of thing, Jeff. "Vessel" sounds a bit too substantial, doesn't it, when discussing a little skiff. Proper, of course, per the Nav Rules and CFRS, but still...
Burning soul -- I wonder as well. Interesting that the more stereotypically lusty, romantic, latinate, Mediterranean languages (French and Spanish anyway) use masculine nouns for our English word, "boat": le bateau, el barco. But just to complicate things even further, the Italian for "boat", la barca, is feminine.
10000 Lakes posted 05-18-2010 05:51 PM ET (US)
And us Navy guys call ships by the name "boat"
WT posted 05-18-2010 06:23 PM ET (US)
I'd never think of my 170 Montauk being a "he".
But a buddy has named my car "Roadhog" which I would never think of being a "she".
"It", "car" or "boat" is easier than he or she.
contender posted 05-18-2010 07:04 PM ET (US)
it's a boat period.
elaelap posted 05-18-2010 07:15 PM ET (US)
To ask the question another way, at what point does any sea-going craft become -- unequivocally -- a "She"? We all know that this happens when we're talking about larger vessels. Is it size? Is it power mode (sure seems to be linguistically more comfortable to use an English language feminine subject pronoun with a modest-sized sailboat rather than with a similar-displacement motor craft)? Are Jeff and Warren correct? Are our little classic Whalers sorta like cars and trucks, and therefore mere "Its"?
And for some of our overseas members: Do you discuss your boats' performance like this: "He did well today...no more problem with his tendency to pull to starboard."
Anyway, just to pass the time...
Tony
dgoodhue posted 05-18-2010 07:20 PM ET (US)
My automotive toys are 'female'. I haven't thought about how I will address my Boston Whaler yet, but she will probably be female as well.
Chris J posted 05-18-2010 07:24 PM ET (US)
We refer to boats as "she" because English, (and much of our maritime heritage) is largely derived from Romance languages (French, Spanish, etc.) in which nouns have gender.
Or maybe it is because they don't shave.
Portola posted 05-18-2010 07:44 PM ET (US)
I am comfortable calling any boat 'she', but it does seem more natural with older boats, larger boats, and especially sail boats. I think the language is gradually changing on this, for whatever reason. There have been lots of usage changes in recent decades stemming from people gun-shy about using any conceivable sex reference, and this change probably comes from the same root. Even the word 'sex' itself is now being replaced by 'gender' anywhere possible, which would have been thought incorrect usage fifty years ago.
I remember a news story a few years ago when the storied journal, Lloyd's List, decided to stop referring to ships as 'she' and switch to 'it'. I couldn't find an on-line reference to the news story, but it is mentioned in the wikipedia article on Lloyd's List.
Waccamaw Whaler posted 05-18-2010 07:59 PM ET (US)
As defined by the "Nautical Dictionary":
http://www.marisafe.com/resources/boatdictionary.asp?mode=browse&term=S&did=4719
SHE
a nautical pronoun used when referring to a boat
[NOTE: There is no defination for 'HE' included in this dictionary]
SHIP
a larger vessel usually thought of as being used for ocean travel; a vessel able to carry a boat on board
BOAT
a small, waterborne vessel smaller than a ship; a small craft propelled by sail, oars or power
hankdonovan posted 05-18-2010 09:10 PM ET (US)
(For what it's worth... this is quoted from wisegeek.com)

The exact reason why boats are called she in English is lost to history. While explanations abound, most appear to be of the folk variety, assumed or invented after the fact as a way to make sense of the phenomenon. Boats are a truly interesting case in English, as they are among the only inanimate objects that take a gendered pronoun, whereas most others are called it. Countries are also called she, as are cars sometimes, but the latter example is almost certainly an extension from boats.
One plausible theory is that boats are called she because they are traditionally given female names, typically the name of an important woman in the life of the boat's owner, such as his mother. It has also been surmised that all ships were once dedicated to goddesses, and later to important mortal women when belief in goddesses waned. Interestingly, although male captains and sailors historically attributed the spirit of a benevolent female figure to their ships, actual women were considered very bad luck at sea.
A second theory as to why boats are called she points to the existence of grammatical gender in most Indo-European languages besides English. While Modern English has hardly any grammatical gender, limited for the most part to cases of natural gender, such as the nouns "woman" and "man" being called she and he respectively, there is evidence that English once has a more extensive system of grammatical gender, similar to that in languages such as German and French. In most Indo-European languages with grammatical gender, the word for "ship" is feminine. In Old English texts, there is more evidence of grammatical gender, such as a shield being called she.
Because English is an Indo-European language, it is most likely that it once had grammatical gender and lost it, since it would be highly unlikely for all the other Indo-European languages with grammatical gender to have acquired the feature independently rather than inheriting it from a common background. Linguistic historians have postulated that proto-Indo-European, the hypothetical "mother language" to all modern Indo-European languages, originally had two genders: animate and inanimate. The inanimate category later split into feminine and neuter, giving three genders: masculine, feminine, and neuter. As each language evolved, so did its system of grammatical gender, so that it has become different in each modern-day Indo-European language.
Whether the fact that boats are called she is a throwback to an ancient system of grammatical gender that has disappeared from English in all but a few instances or an analogy to the reverence that sailors have for the women in their lives, the phenomenon is one of the most interesting anomalies in Modern English. Recently, advocates of gender-neutral or non-sexist language have proposed that ships no longer be called she, but rather it, like any other inanimate object.
hankdonovan posted 05-18-2010 09:24 PM ET (US)
An overkill posting? Perhaps, but my 1987 Outrage is named "Pamela Jean" after my ever-lovin' spouse. She was honored, and...
(draw your own conclusions.)
sapple posted 05-18-2010 09:28 PM ET (US)
My boat is a "she". Her name is "Matoaca" after the Indian Princess who, according to legend, saved John Smith from execution at the hands of Chief Powhatan. However, my cars (Jimmy and Wolf) and truck (Culpepper) are all males.
fluke posted 05-18-2010 09:42 PM ET (US)
The ocean is our mother,therfore it must be "she"
JMARTIN posted 05-19-2010 12:38 AM ET (US)
My Grandfather taught me about manners and boats. A women, "She", was to be treated with respect, regardless of the situation. A boat is a "She" also, you have to treat both of them with respect or you will regret it.
John
home Aside posted 05-19-2010 01:23 AM ET (US)
I agree with referring to boats, motorcycles, motor vehicles as "She". It doesn't surprise me that there may be some femenists out there that don't agree with it. Look at all the Brewhaha regarding Indian Names used for College Athletic Teams...
The thing I think is funny about all this is that I was never schooled, tutored, educated, to refer to my Whaler, Car, Truck, Motorcycles, Guns, etc, etc, as she, I have just done it.....maybe it's because if I started referring to them all as he, it might be construed as being/sounding a little.....lets not go there....
Pat
erik selis posted 05-19-2010 06:56 AM ET (US)
My boat is definitely female and my car male. Too bad they can't reproduce eh! :-)
Erik
cohasett73 posted 05-19-2010 07:50 AM ET (US)
I used to have a jeep named "Nelly Belle" and my Cohasset is named "Sweetie" with a heart to dot the i. It's amazing the crap you can get away with when you use the term of endearment you use for your wife to name your boat ;-)
Tom from Rubicon,WI
Plotman posted 05-19-2010 09:22 AM ET (US)
I was told boats are referred to as "she" because they cost so much to keep in paint and polish. Ducking now :)
However, many warships are referred to as "he", as in men-of-war. 10,000 lakes - in the US Navy - Submarines are referred to as boats, however, other vessels of the line are ships.
My whaler is an it. Our family's 38 foot ketch was an it, even though her name was Artemis (in addition to being the goddess of the hunt, she was the patron of mariners).
tombro posted 05-19-2010 03:17 PM ET (US)
I have always referred to all boats as "she".
Early on I was told it was due to the beauty of their lines and the grace with which they move.
elaelap posted 05-19-2010 03:31 PM ET (US)
Hmmm, tombro, maybe that's why every time I see a Bayliner I'm reminded of my first wife ;-)
Tony
mgeiger posted 05-19-2010 04:01 PM ET (US)
elaelap - good one. My ex is more of a Carver nowadays.
I've always referred to boats as "she". To me it is a combination of respect, grace and caregiver qualities. Mine being named "Yonah" ("Bear" in Cherokee) confuses the theme a bit, but my wife can certainly be a yonah for a few days each month.
elaelap posted 05-19-2010 04:09 PM ET (US)
Actually, when I see a Bayliner I don't have to worry about which subject pronoun to use; I just combine them:
She-it!
Tony
jimbp posted 05-21-2010 05:17 PM ET (US)
She-It! Good Tony, very good. Is Bayliner in the tank? Can understand why, seen too many of them fall apart. Been driving by the plant in Roseburg OR for the last 6 years, now empty, just read that in 08 they closed 4 plants and mothballed another.
On the subject, My Dad, 30 yr Navy man, always said the rule of thumb was:"You can put a boat on a ship but you can't put a ship on a boat." And, they were always "she's."
rtk posted 05-23-2010 03:28 PM ET (US)
She is what I use.
I do think historically, going way way back, when bold men set sail for years, they named the boat for their love. It was a tradition of a captain and or owner setting out to sea naming the boat after a lady they hold close to the heart.
A boat is not much different from a woman. If you spend the time to maintain her right and sail her right (the woman & the boat) she will always be there for you.
Boston Whaler boats are like a good woman- they will never let you down.
So She it is for me. Some other boats can be a real pain in the ass so maybe that is relevant to some but not for me in many ways :)
Rich


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Author	Topic: "It" or "She"? Subject pronouns for Boston Whalers
elaelap	posted 05-18-2010 03:39 PM ET (US) I find myself swinging back and forth between the subject pronouns "It" and "She" when writing (or talking) about my little Boston Whaler motorboats. While I'm pretty sure that either is correct, what's the consensus opinion of the members here? E.g., is my 16'7" Montauk skiff worthy of a full-fledged "She", or must she (whoops!) remain a mere "It" because of her (whoops!) modest size? Tony
littleblue	posted 05-18-2010 03:43 PM ET (US) I find myself using "she" most of the time.
gnr	posted 05-18-2010 03:46 PM ET (US) Slow day at the office, eh? To answer the question though. You have my permission to call your boat whatever you wish. ;-)
burning_hXc_soul	posted 05-18-2010 03:58 PM ET (US) Since you bring it up, why do men refer to their boats as "she"? I'm assuming it comes from some old British navy tradition or something along those lines. I refer to my boat as a "he" because its durable and rugged, not a quality I particularly look for in women haha.
Jeff	posted 05-18-2010 04:04 PM ET (US) Maybe it is a generational thing but, I do not refer to my boat as a she. In fact be it a boat, car or, like toy I rarely hear "she" used as a pronoun by myself or peers. That said, I do vacillate between "vessel" and "boat" when speaking in general regards to a Boston Whaler.
elaelap	posted 05-18-2010 05:02 PM ET (US) Yeah, same sort of thing, Jeff. "Vessel" sounds a bit too substantial, doesn't it, when discussing a little skiff. Proper, of course, per the Nav Rules and CFRS, but still... Burning soul -- I wonder as well. Interesting that the more stereotypically lusty, romantic, latinate, Mediterranean languages (French and Spanish anyway) use masculine nouns for our English word, "boat": le bateau, el barco. But just to complicate things even further, the Italian for "boat", la barca, is feminine.
10000 Lakes	posted 05-18-2010 05:51 PM ET (US) And us Navy guys call ships by the name "boat"
WT	posted 05-18-2010 06:23 PM ET (US) I'd never think of my 170 Montauk being a "he". But a buddy has named my car "Roadhog" which I would never think of being a "she". "It", "car" or "boat" is easier than he or she.
contender	posted 05-18-2010 07:04 PM ET (US) it's a boat period.
elaelap	posted 05-18-2010 07:15 PM ET (US) To ask the question another way, at what point does any sea-going craft become -- unequivocally -- a "She"? We all know that this happens when we're talking about larger vessels. Is it size? Is it power mode (sure seems to be linguistically more comfortable to use an English language feminine subject pronoun with a modest-sized sailboat rather than with a similar-displacement motor craft)? Are Jeff and Warren correct? Are our little classic Whalers sorta like cars and trucks, and therefore mere "Its"? And for some of our overseas members: Do you discuss your boats' performance like this: "He did well today...no more problem with his tendency to pull to starboard." Anyway, just to pass the time... Tony
dgoodhue	posted 05-18-2010 07:20 PM ET (US) My automotive toys are 'female'. I haven't thought about how I will address my Boston Whaler yet, but she will probably be female as well.
Chris J	posted 05-18-2010 07:24 PM ET (US) We refer to boats as "she" because English, (and much of our maritime heritage) is largely derived from Romance languages (French, Spanish, etc.) in which nouns have gender. Or maybe it is because they don't shave.
Portola	posted 05-18-2010 07:44 PM ET (US) I am comfortable calling any boat 'she', but it does seem more natural with older boats, larger boats, and especially sail boats. I think the language is gradually changing on this, for whatever reason. There have been lots of usage changes in recent decades stemming from people gun-shy about using any conceivable sex reference, and this change probably comes from the same root. Even the word 'sex' itself is now being replaced by 'gender' anywhere possible, which would have been thought incorrect usage fifty years ago. I remember a news story a few years ago when the storied journal, Lloyd's List, decided to stop referring to ships as 'she' and switch to 'it'. I couldn't find an on-line reference to the news story, but it is mentioned in the wikipedia article on Lloyd's List.
Waccamaw Whaler	posted 05-18-2010 07:59 PM ET (US) As defined by the "Nautical Dictionary": http://www.marisafe.com/resources/boatdictionary.asp?mode=browse&term=S&did=4719 SHE a nautical pronoun used when referring to a boat [NOTE: There is no defination for 'HE' included in this dictionary] SHIP a larger vessel usually thought of as being used for ocean travel; a vessel able to carry a boat on board BOAT a small, waterborne vessel smaller than a ship; a small craft propelled by sail, oars or power
hankdonovan	posted 05-18-2010 09:10 PM ET (US) (For what it's worth... this is quoted from wisegeek.com) The exact reason why boats are called she in English is lost to history. While explanations abound, most appear to be of the folk variety, assumed or invented after the fact as a way to make sense of the phenomenon. Boats are a truly interesting case in English, as they are among the only inanimate objects that take a gendered pronoun, whereas most others are called it. Countries are also called she, as are cars sometimes, but the latter example is almost certainly an extension from boats. One plausible theory is that boats are called she because they are traditionally given female names, typically the name of an important woman in the life of the boat's owner, such as his mother. It has also been surmised that all ships were once dedicated to goddesses, and later to important mortal women when belief in goddesses waned. Interestingly, although male captains and sailors historically attributed the spirit of a benevolent female figure to their ships, actual women were considered very bad luck at sea. A second theory as to why boats are called she points to the existence of grammatical gender in most Indo-European languages besides English. While Modern English has hardly any grammatical gender, limited for the most part to cases of natural gender, such as the nouns "woman" and "man" being called she and he respectively, there is evidence that English once has a more extensive system of grammatical gender, similar to that in languages such as German and French. In most Indo-European languages with grammatical gender, the word for "ship" is feminine. In Old English texts, there is more evidence of grammatical gender, such as a shield being called she. Because English is an Indo-European language, it is most likely that it once had grammatical gender and lost it, since it would be highly unlikely for all the other Indo-European languages with grammatical gender to have acquired the feature independently rather than inheriting it from a common background. Linguistic historians have postulated that proto-Indo-European, the hypothetical "mother language" to all modern Indo-European languages, originally had two genders: animate and inanimate. The inanimate category later split into feminine and neuter, giving three genders: masculine, feminine, and neuter. As each language evolved, so did its system of grammatical gender, so that it has become different in each modern-day Indo-European language. Whether the fact that boats are called she is a throwback to an ancient system of grammatical gender that has disappeared from English in all but a few instances or an analogy to the reverence that sailors have for the women in their lives, the phenomenon is one of the most interesting anomalies in Modern English. Recently, advocates of gender-neutral or non-sexist language have proposed that ships no longer be called she, but rather it, like any other inanimate object.
hankdonovan	posted 05-18-2010 09:24 PM ET (US) An overkill posting? Perhaps, but my 1987 Outrage is named "Pamela Jean" after my ever-lovin' spouse. She was honored, and... (draw your own conclusions.)
sapple	posted 05-18-2010 09:28 PM ET (US) My boat is a "she". Her name is "Matoaca" after the Indian Princess who, according to legend, saved John Smith from execution at the hands of Chief Powhatan. However, my cars (Jimmy and Wolf) and truck (Culpepper) are all males.
fluke	posted 05-18-2010 09:42 PM ET (US) The ocean is our mother,therfore it must be "she"
JMARTIN	posted 05-19-2010 12:38 AM ET (US) My Grandfather taught me about manners and boats. A women, "She", was to be treated with respect, regardless of the situation. A boat is a "She" also, you have to treat both of them with respect or you will regret it. John
home Aside	posted 05-19-2010 01:23 AM ET (US) I agree with referring to boats, motorcycles, motor vehicles as "She". It doesn't surprise me that there may be some femenists out there that don't agree with it. Look at all the Brewhaha regarding Indian Names used for College Athletic Teams... The thing I think is funny about all this is that I was never schooled, tutored, educated, to refer to my Whaler, Car, Truck, Motorcycles, Guns, etc, etc, as she, I have just done it.....maybe it's because if I started referring to them all as he, it might be construed as being/sounding a little.....lets not go there.... Pat
erik selis	posted 05-19-2010 06:56 AM ET (US) My boat is definitely female and my car male. Too bad they can't reproduce eh! :-) Erik
cohasett73	posted 05-19-2010 07:50 AM ET (US) I used to have a jeep named "Nelly Belle" and my Cohasset is named "Sweetie" with a heart to dot the i. It's amazing the crap you can get away with when you use the term of endearment you use for your wife to name your boat ;-) Tom from Rubicon,WI
Plotman	posted 05-19-2010 09:22 AM ET (US) I was told boats are referred to as "she" because they cost so much to keep in paint and polish. Ducking now :) However, many warships are referred to as "he", as in men-of-war. 10,000 lakes - in the US Navy - Submarines are referred to as boats, however, other vessels of the line are ships. My whaler is an it. Our family's 38 foot ketch was an it, even though her name was Artemis (in addition to being the goddess of the hunt, she was the patron of mariners).
tombro	posted 05-19-2010 03:17 PM ET (US) I have always referred to all boats as "she". Early on I was told it was due to the beauty of their lines and the grace with which they move.
elaelap	posted 05-19-2010 03:31 PM ET (US) Hmmm, tombro, maybe that's why every time I see a Bayliner I'm reminded of my first wife ;-) Tony
mgeiger	posted 05-19-2010 04:01 PM ET (US) elaelap - good one. My ex is more of a Carver nowadays. I've always referred to boats as "she". To me it is a combination of respect, grace and caregiver qualities. Mine being named "Yonah" ("Bear" in Cherokee) confuses the theme a bit, but my wife can certainly be a yonah for a few days each month.
elaelap	posted 05-19-2010 04:09 PM ET (US) Actually, when I see a Bayliner I don't have to worry about which subject pronoun to use; I just combine them: She-it! Tony
jimbp	posted 05-21-2010 05:17 PM ET (US) She-It! Good Tony, very good. Is Bayliner in the tank? Can understand why, seen too many of them fall apart. Been driving by the plant in Roseburg OR for the last 6 years, now empty, just read that in 08 they closed 4 plants and mothballed another. On the subject, My Dad, 30 yr Navy man, always said the rule of thumb was:"You can put a boat on a ship but you can't put a ship on a boat." And, they were always "she's."
rtk	posted 05-23-2010 03:28 PM ET (US) She is what I use. I do think historically, going way way back, when bold men set sail for years, they named the boat for their love. It was a tradition of a captain and or owner setting out to sea naming the boat after a lady they hold close to the heart. A boat is not much different from a woman. If you spend the time to maintain her right and sail her right (the woman & the boat) she will always be there for you. Boston Whaler boats are like a good woman- they will never let you down. So She it is for me. Some other boats can be a real pain in the ass so maybe that is relevant to some but not for me in many ways :) Rich