posted 09-27-2010 02:22 PM ET (US)        

Is there any technical reason not to buy the Suzuki and this saving may just be a local incentive by Suzuki ?

posted 09-27-2010 06:50 PM ET (US)         

They are using a business practice called "Unsustainable Hyper-Competitive Pricing" to gain marketshare, but in their case, since they have been doing it ever since they switched to black paint, Suzuki Industries seems to have the pockets deep enough to keep it going a long time. Their marketshare increase must be huge. At the expense of whom?

They seem hellbent on destroying the US outboard manufacturing industry with this below makret pricing. Copycating is not an ethical issue for them.

posted 09-27-2010 07:44 PM ET (US)            

Suzuki is also a car manufacturer, and any engineer there is probably using parts across several lines to cut the costs. What do you suppose the odds are that some of their car engines share the same parts used in the outboards, which would dramatically scale down the costs of manufacture?

posted 09-27-2010 07:57 PM ET (US)            

Modern four-cycle motors: Suzuki was the first outboard manufacturer to move their product line to an all four-cycle motor line-up. Suzuki committed to four-cycle motors, dropping two-cycle motors. They were the first to have electronic fuel injection in all their motors. I believe they were first or among the first to have variable valve timing, long tuned intake runners, variable intake tuning, and other modern engine features.

Confidence in their product expressed as a long warranty: Before Suzuki an outboard motor manufacturer such as Mercury only stood behind their product for one year or perhaps two years. When Suzuki offered their outboard motors with a SIX YEAR FULL FACTORY WARRANTY, Suzuki turned the outboard engine manufacturing business upside down. No customer would tolerate a one-year warranty or a motor that began to fail after a couple of years, when they could get a six-year warranty from Suzuki. The fact that now it is common to see three-year warranties as standard and longer warranties often available as promotions is very likely only happening because of Suzuki.

The only drawback to ownership of a Suzuki motor that I can see is their limited representation in some areas of North America. Where Suzuki has good dealer representation, their motors have obtained good market share. For example, in North Carolina where I visited a few years ago, just about every black motor cowling I saw said SUZUKI. There were two big dealers in a small town, and all the local boats had Suzuki outboards. In other places, like southeast Michigan, you cannot find a Suzuki dealer and their motors have very limited market share.

Suzuki motors are also NMEA-2000 compatible, joining all the other outboard manufacturers except Mercury in adopting this growing standard of vessel electronic integration.

Also, I have never ever heard anyone say that you should buy a Suzuki motor because it uses simple, proven, 1970's technology and will be easy to repair when it breaks down or when its periodic maintenance is due. Suzuki does not try to promote its products as using 40-year-old technology that can be maintained by shade-tree mechanics as a selling point.

posted 09-27-2010 08:31 PM ET (US)         

When you can buy a complicated EFI 4-stroke for 25 to 35% less than a relatively simple and cheap to build E-TEC, somebody is either price dumping or price gouging at the same HP levels. But since Mercury, Yamaha and Honda are also high priced in that market, I'd say it's the former.
Is Japan based Suzuki a lower production cost outboard producer than Japan based Honda? Not likely.

posted 09-27-2010 08:32 PM ET (US)            

I can go to my local dealer and get any part I want for a two cylcle OMC or Mercury. Try to do that will the now discontinued Suzuki two strokes and what you will get is a laugh. The new four stoke Suzukis maybe a fine motor and the price is right but if you are in for the long haul..beware. I see more and more of the four strokes coming up for sale in need of repairs and the two strokes have little resale when compared to other brands. Suzuki is in my opinion a motor that you buy cheap and throw it away when it needs repair. How green is that?

posted 09-27-2010 10:05 PM ET (US)         

Your term sounds vaguely similar to "Supra-competitive pricing" which is the opposite, that is raising prices above production cost because of lack of competition.

Why exactly is Evinrude considered to be a US based manufacturer when own by a Canadian company? What distinguishes a company as US based if not for where it's owner is based? If it's because they have manufacturing plants here then both Toyota and Nissan could be considered US based.

Comparing Suzuki to Evinrude prices here:

http://edsmarinesuperstore.com/suzuki_yard_sale_prices.htm

http://edsmarinesuperstore.com/evinrude_yard_sale_prices.htm

does not show a 25-35% in price difference, and I would imagine Ed's price some closest to eliminating dealer markup for comparisons of manufacturer pricing.

I don't see the predatory pricing.

You really think they have been running at a loss in the US for what, more than 5 years?

posted 09-27-2010 10:29 PM ET (US)            

The concept that the E-TEC has fewer components than a four-cycle cannot provide compelling evidence that BRP has been forced to sell them at a low profit margin price because of Suzuki's pricing. If BRP's cost to manufacture an E-TEC is lower than Suzuki's cost to make their engine, Suzuki cannot harm BRP with low prices. In the race to low prices, BRP can survive. The manufacturer who is being most affected is Mercury. The Mercury four-cycle engines contain extremely costly components such as precision designed superchargers with exotic compressors made to resist salty air, an engine block designed like a Formula-One Grand Prix racer, expensive intercoolers, exotic dry-sump lubrication systems with close tolerance wiper mechanisms--a very expensive group of components. Further, these components are all mainly custom designed and produced just for the Verado. They are not off the shelf parts or parts made by the million for automotive applications. Selling a VERADO head-to-head against a Suzuki must be stretching Mercury Marine's production profit margins thinner and thinner. BRP's lower cost of manufacturing let's them still make a profit in this intensely competitive price competition.

posted 09-27-2010 10:39 PM ET (US)            

E-TEC 225 = $14,725
Suzuki 225 = $13,475

Difference is $1,250, which is

1,250/14725 = 0.084 or about eight-percent underselling for Suzuki.

If BRP has a lower cost-of-goods-sold and sells for a higher price, I don't see how Suzuki is going to harm them.

posted 09-28-2010 07:08 AM ET (US)            

As far as having a 6 year warranty, Suzuki has a 3 year factory warranty, and (most of the time) offers an additional 3 years declining warranty through an aftermarket insurance company. Suzuki ranks dead last for customer service. They have been extremely resistance to approving warranty work and then providing parts.

For example we had a customer with a new generation (lean burn)Suzuki 90 that lost a cylinder at 4.5 hours. The computer printout from the ECM showed the suggested break-in procedures were being followed. Six weeks later we, not Suzuki, put a new engine on the boat and then we waited 9 months for Suzuki to get us a short block. At least the customer only had to wait 6 weeks. By the way the second engine burned up a cylinder at 14.5 hours!

When the Suzuki rep visited our dealership I asked him how Suzuki suggested dealing with the problems our customers were having with ethanol in the gas. His rather flippant response was that Suzuki had not done any testing and that we should go by Yamaha's recommendation as they had done extensive testing. So much for customer service.

posted 09-28-2010 08:56 AM ET (US)            

I decline to be an errand boy and cite a part number. You should know better. Last time you challenged me on something you promised to eat a loop charged engine if I proved you wrong. I am still waiting. The unaccountable BS was coming from yourself in that instance.

posted 09-28-2010 09:05 AM ET (US)            

It is always interesting to hear about the relationship between retailers of outboard motors and the manufacturers of outboard motors. Price and margin are important considerations for the retail buyer, but they are also important for the dealer, too. The dealer would like to make money selling outboard motors, and you have to think that a dealer would be influenced in his choice of what brand to sell by how much money he may be able to make selling them. That Suzuki would also have to approach a dealer with a low price for their motor is not surprising. Inducing an established dealer to take on a new line of outboard motors must be a difficult negotiation.

The sudden decline of OMC in c.2002 created opportunity for market share growth for everyone. I think it is safe to say that Yamaha was also a beneficiary of increased market share when sale of OMC motors declined. Suzuki may have taken a portion, too.

posted 09-28-2010 09:41 AM ET (US)            

If reduction of employment in Wisconsin in the outboard motor manufacturing business is a primary concern when shopping for a new outboard motor, we have a troublesome relationship with Mercury Marine. They have exported manufacturing of their outboard motors of under 75-HP to Japan and China, resulting in substantial reduction in their workforce in Wisconsin as well as in Stillwater, Oklahoma.

posted 09-28-2010 01:50 PM ET (US)            

Unlike the US we probably have only 10-15 dealers in the UAE with the main manufactures represented in both Abu Dhabi and Dubai and few others scattered in the other emirates plus a few greys that are brought in due to ties with hull manufacturers

Most mechanics, plumber, electrician etc etc is a little man with a hammer, 1 screwdriver and a plastic bag with various nuts, screws and sticky tape.

Its not a lot better at your BMW or Audi dealer except they have more tools and boat mechs are somewhere in-between. If your lucky some have had training in Europe.

The engines here only have 3 year warranties they all come complete with rigging, binnacle , prop and fitting

The Suzuki price was approximately 8500USD and the others were 11000 to 13000USD which is more inline with US prices. It's not customary to discount many things here just to sell them off often unused/new items many years old can be found for boats and cars alike.

Yamaha's are probably the most popular here for 4 stokes and mercs for 2 stokes simply as most engines are abused here and servicing is not considered a priority till it goes wrong.

I was hoping that you had thoughts on V,s vs inline or block size. I always thought there was some preference to not having the max hp from a block that is used across a range

posted 09-28-2010 09:45 PM ET (US)            

continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/006497.html-Similar

I accepted one of the many guantlets he threw out and have yet to receive any knowledge of him making good on his promise. No apology, no retraction, nothing but the silence of dishonor.

For someone that spouts a rudimentary knowledge of the rules of evidence. I suggest he revist the law of contracts and read about such things as good faith bargaining, conditional promises and acceptance. Where I went to law school you needed to pass contracts before you got to evidence. I can assure you Toshib has a grasp of neither. No I won't be taking him up on any future bets. But if wants to make good on the one he lost with me I would like to put it on youtube.

As for Suzuki,the parts for the older motors are mostly supplied from the aftermarket, Siera and the like as the manufacturer is not interested. I could not even find a part number for the individual parts I needed in most instances as Suzuki chose to sell parts as assemblies, bundling several parts into a large group.

Brian

posted 09-28-2010 10:06 PM ET (US)         

Well there proof right there the ETEC is more reliable than Suzuki because of one post on another message board of a single failure.

Oh wait I found a post on another board of MULTIPLE ETEC failures, that must mean Suzuki is now more reliable:

[This link was to a rather old discussion on some obscure web forum. Its content was so banal that I really cannot in any way contribute to anything that might cause people to read it. Link has been removed--jimh]

Come on guys, no one has hard data backing up which is more reliable an neither manufacturer will divulge their failure rates, stop falling into the anecdote trap.

Yes the Suzuki has more moving parts than an ETEC, so what that proves nothing, that is one variable.

Consider that the fewer moving parts on a ETEC are put under higher stresses and heat because of no down time in the exhaust and intake strokes, why do you think they use a Nasa alloy for the pistons?

posted 09-29-2010 02:50 AM ET (US)         

To imply that four strokes aren't likely to be reliable because of a limited history of production is misleading. Every car on the market today, and probably for at least the last 30 years, uses a four stroke engine. That is A LOT of engine building experience, certainly a lot more than the DFI two stroke has.

posted 09-29-2010 05:03 AM ET (US)            

Also, in our market the boats that have Mercury power as a package default (locally made boats, not imports like Whalers) now seems to almost always have Optimax as part of the base package, were applicable. You want Four-stroke or Verado? Yessir, for a small fee...

posted 09-29-2010 10:04 AM ET (US)            

After all, I think my mother is the most beautiful woman in the world...but I doubt you guys would agree. I'm biased. I love her. She's my mom.

If I worked for Brunswick, my official position might be that a product made by my company is the best, safest, most efficient and highest quality item on the market. After all, it's my company. They pay my mortgage. I need them.

Until an independent third party validates something, claims coming from marketing departments can generally be discounted - or at best, treated with skepticism. As for so-called independent testing, well....follow the money.

Perhaps I'm jaded - I've worked in and around the pharma industry too long.

The point I made above about the [unnamed user] is that 'common thought' and experiences are just that - what is commonly thought. The emperors all wear the same clothes - it's just that their loyalists think one pair is somehow better than the other.

I don't think there are many technical reasons to buy one engine brand over another. I can think of a few: ability to start and operate without a battery (if that is a concern), charging ability of the alternator, etc. Usually these reasons are niche - meaning that they only REALLY matter to a few users.

The rest are feature-based (do you want a supercharger?, do you like the gee-whiz self winterization, etc.), brand loyalties, geopolitical perspectives, pricing and dealer/mechanical support in the area that you boat most often.

posted 09-29-2010 10:27 AM ET (US)            

Up here in the short season part of the country, parts availability and speed of support services are as critical if not more critical than burning 4.5 GPH versus 5.0 GPH at cruise or going 44 MPH versus 45 MPH at WOT, or that one motor is slightly quieter at idle than another. All motors need unscheduled service at some point in their lives and if I were buying a new motor, parts availability and speed and quality of service would be significant factors in my purchasing decision. The prospective buyer would do well to perform some due diligence in this area before buying.

posted 09-29-2010 03:02 PM ET (US)            

"Is there any technical reason not to buy the Suzuki and this saving may just be a local incentive by Suzuki ?"

All of this thread has pretty much not answered his question. Being I have owned Suzukis I think I gave an honest answer and my technical experience with them. Hearsay is just that and should be omitted from this unless you have "technical" proof or bulletins to show us. However as Larry pointed out this is not a local incentive. It happens to be a major conspiracy to put all American companies out of business and us into a utter depression with no light at the end of the tunnel. However he failed to include that fact that some Mercury engines are made in China and other major components made in Japan but that is OK as long as they continue to charge more to their fellow Americans for an inferior product.

posted 09-29-2010 07:00 PM ET (US)            

A gallon has gone up a bit in recent times to about 1.5USD

All major parts here have to come from Europe, US or Asia (eg my Audi fuel pump just came yesterday and took 3 weeks from Germany)

The biggest problem here will be competency of the mechanics who are usually Indian or Pilipino and are more use to playing with older 2 strokes by trial and error learning. I not sure how they manage with the Verados and other complex engines. My boat gets dirtier in the workshop than outside in a sand storm :)

I also forgot to mention the Suzuki also comes with a free Garmin GPS probaly to compete with ETECs and Yamahas that come with free digital gauges

It seems we can really pin point any real technical reason not to go for any of the newer modern engines and certainly here there is a good argument for old carb 2 strokes that are possibly more resilient to abuse inflicted on them, which I'm told is why the coast guard prefers them.

The only good news is I could have my engine stripped down and rebuilt cheaper than an annual service in the US, but I'd rather not put it to the test.

posted 09-29-2010 11:41 PM ET (US)            

--multi-point electronic fuel injection
--tuned intake manifolds with variable tuning elements which adjust for different engine speed ranges
--variable valve timing which adjusts for different engine speed ranges
--computer control of engine operation
--NMEA-2000 interface

In the larger horsepower ranges, SUZUKI has moved to use of larger diameter propellers. As a corollary, SUZUKI has used higher (numerical) gear reduction.

SUZUKI has also been working on reducing the weight of their engines. I believe that their engine weight is currently quite good compared to competitor four-cycle motors.

I have never seen any reliable data about rate of repair for outboard motors on the basis of manufacturer, two-cycle or four-cycle, or any other basis. There just is no information. Many times you can find rather celebrated accounts from very upset owners of spectacular failures of outboard motors of various brands and models. However, I have no idea how one could form a reasonable opinion about what engine fails more than others from these accounts. Certainly the total number of engines of a particular type and brand that are in use will be a very strong factor in determining how many accounts of failures are posted to websites. It is also very difficult to get any sort of reliable data about how many engines of a particular type or brand are in service. No one has this data. So while we have proclamation of "market leader" from some manufacturers, we really have no idea what that means.

posted 09-30-2010 07:50 PM ET (US)            

Honda: 225-hp/ 610 lb.(Large model)

Verado: 225-hp/ 635 lb. (lightest model available) may need a rigging harness adding additional weight.

Suzuki : 225-hp/ 580 lb.

For a classic haul design someone looking for a four stroke, the Suzuki would be within range for some Boston Whaler boats that are sensitive to large weight.

posted 10-01-2010 10:21 AM ET (US)            

But Steve, forget about that overpowered DF150, turn your Whaler into a displacement-hull-speed trawler, and power her with one of these (for sale, as you can see, right up the hot dusty road from you in the UAE at -- no kidding -- the Abdul Ahad General Trading Company:
http://www.alibaba.com/product-free/111546807/ D27_Outboard_Diesel_Engine_New.html

That's a Yanmar D27 diesel outboard, weighing in at only ~200 lbs with its aluminum block. Yanmar used to make a 36 hp version but it's been, unfortunately, discontinued. These motors can run on 'normal' diesel, kerosene+oil blend, and vegetable oil, and are considered bombproof.

Not to change the thrust of this discussion (heh, heh), but when oh when, my Lord, will some smart manufacturer see the writing on the wall and develop a nice 90 hp diesel outboard motor?

posted 10-01-2010 11:44 AM ET (US)            

Thanks for the tip :)

Yeah I can imagine just popping down to my local curry shop and recycling the oil through my yanmar lol

I have enough problems tryIng to explain why a BW costs 2-3 times more than a local built hull and why I only have 200hp on the back

For all the wealth here many locals buy cheap local boats that are relatively simple long white things then slap +400hp on them

Gulf craft although building 100ft plus hulls are probably the biggest builder and do a range for local market, but there are plenty of others

http://gulfcraftinc.com/pdf/silvercraft/Sport_Fishing_Series.pdf

I know you will want to import one tomorrow :)

Regards
Steve