posted 11-29-2010 08:09 PM ET (US)        

I had been thinking about the purchase of a new boat recently and attended the Ft. Lauderdale show to preview my short list, that being, SeaVee, Intrepid and Jupiter. I stopped to look at the Whalers and of course having such intimate knowledge of these products my heart [and wife] told me to take another look at the 305 Conquest, which I did, I LIKED the boat but I had decided on some features that were a requirement with the purchase of a 30' ++ boat, one of which was a bow thruster.

Unfortunately, even with the offer to Whaler of a instanter purchase of a 305 Conquest, Whaler was a 'production' boat company and could not afford me this factory semi-customization. So Aufwiedersehn Boston Whaler, I purchased a 34 Sea Vee equipped with what else but 300 Verado's. When I asked the semi-custom vendors could you do this or could you do that, all had positive responses that would accomodate my needs, only a function of dollars. So Verado here I come!

p.s. the ride is incredible compared to my Conquest

posted 11-30-2010 07:41 AM ET (US)            

With economy being down globally, you would think that companies would do their upmost best to delight their customers. Specially in the price range that Trafficlawyer was looking to buy a boat.

posted 11-30-2010 08:41 AM ET (US)            

I don't really know enough about outboards to judge which are best. I believe all the new engines are reliable and manufactured to very high standards. The choice of engine is best determined by application and availability of service.

My 190 Montauk has a 135 Mercury Verado on the transom. I have very few hours on the engine but it has been flawless. The performance is excellent and the DTS is just fantastic compared to my previous boat.

posted 12-02-2010 07:42 AM ET (US)            

I know of no other brand of boat that has had so many models in its history. Simply amazing. Obviously the models that were discontinued were not selling/making a profit to the expectations of Boston Whaler.
If they were selling/making profit and meeting expectations and they stopped making them.....then they are really poor business people.
Are the larger models selling and making a profit?
I don't know....but they still continue to crank them out and making even bigger ones.
In this economy, if they are making expensive, over-priced, middle-tier products, with engines that no one wants......it will be bye-bye Boston Whaler.

posted 12-02-2010 08:52 AM ET (US)            

Many of us have 10-50 year old Whalers in everyday use.

Foam sandwich construction sets Whaler apart.
Lightweight, strong AND long lasting.
Many other boat brands have soft floors from rotted wood stringers in just a few years.
Even today, many of the so-called top line boats use way too much plywood in construction.

The average person on the street KNOWS what a Boston Whaler is.
Edgewater? Jupiter? They think thats a cheap motel and a planet.

posted 12-02-2010 06:56 PM ET (US)            

Safety.

Some of the other high end, high priced boats will not float level when swamped.
A Boston Whaler does, and that can save your life.

posted 12-02-2010 10:23 PM ET (US)            

This is **Absolute Nonsense**. Complete and utter nonsense. Not only nonsense in theory, but in observed practice. Take it from a guy who turtled a Whaler after being swamped. I can tell you as a fact that they float pretty darned well upside down, but once filled will go turtle in a split second if flooded in any sort of seaway. If you actually believe that they will "float level", you need to do some study of vessel stability. If you bought a Whaler thinking that this is true, you are boating with a false sense of security.

Here's a place to start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metacentric_height

See especially "Free Surface Effect"

Your water-filled Whaler will capsize just like all any other.

Whalers are a decent boat... one of dozens of decent boats. None of them are a magic carpet.

Dave

.

posted 12-03-2010 12:00 AM ET (US)            

Notice that most all Whaler brochures have a column for all models on the specs page for "swamped capacity".

It's not called the 'Unsinkable Legend' for nothing.
It can and does save lives.

Classic Whalers have about 2 1/2 times the flotation required to meet Coast Guard regulations.

That is why a swamped Whaler will float level. With the powerhead of the outboard (and the operator!)above water.

When swamped, most all other boats will sink stern 1st (weight of the motor) with the bow bobbing up and down. And the operator in the water watching it. I've seen an expensive Whaler competitor's boats do that several times.

A Whaler is 'overbuilt', but I'm glad it is.

Hate to admit it, but I've swamped several Whalers over the years (operator failure), but the engine powerhead was always above water. Got the motor going, it drained itself and off we went (to change clothes!).

Since our 1st Whaler (a 13 footer in 1972), the only Whaler I've ever seen turn turtle was a 9' Squall, and we did that just for fun.

posted 12-03-2010 09:19 AM ET (US)            

If this is what you have perceived by my purchase of a CV you are indeed misplaced. I expect 50 years from now the San Francisco demokRats will by way of regulation made recreational boating virtually impossible and therefore unless your bathtub can accomodate your 'Whaler' you won't be doing much boating, in a Whaler or anything else.

posted 12-03-2010 11:35 AM ET (US)            

I got to talking to one of the more "seasoned" BW guys, he says the reason the Etec is on display on the Brunswick RIB is because BRP has been a whole lot more cooperative on outfitting commercial product than their own Mercury brand(!).

I asked if you could order any of these commercial boats with Etecs, he replied "We do it all the time", and BRP has been a pleasure to work with, he reports. He also says that his division runs into red tape with Mercury, which shouldn't happen when your boat company owns there own motors, but it happens more than he'd like it to.

posted 12-03-2010 12:18 PM ET (US)            

What size Whaler did you swamp?

It seems to me that would be a factor. I can't feature flipping a 13 footer without trying to do it.

Wiki does not address some issues.

What about buoyancy?

What about hull design? What about a catamaran? Or a tri-hull?

How do the passengers position and weight affect things?

What about a slow fill in calm seas which would have little water movement?

Where the Whaler size and design plays into all of this I don't know.

posted 12-05-2010 01:46 AM ET (US)            

I've swamped Whalers more times than I have fingers and toes. I've capsized one once. It was a 1987 17 Montauk. We were recovering a spearfisherman who had shot a large striped bass, had him holding on the gunwale from the water, just supporting himself, and had two guys on the same side boating a 40 pound bass. Obviously the engine was out of gear, and was loaded with two guys plus one on the water on one side portside, to be exact). As we boated the fish the boat had drifted broadside to the seas, which were 3-4 footers. Just as we leaned over th boat the fish, one wave boarded the boat, which filled about 2/3 full and *immediately* capsized, dumping two of us in the water and almost killing the diver as it went hard onto his head. We lost all of our gear that was in the boat including several thosand dollars of diving gear. The Whaler floated turtled and we held on until we were assisted by another boat. We towed it to Plum Island, beached it, righted it, sprayed the crap out of the engine and electrics with WD-40 (we happened to have two cans aboard), started it (!!) and ran home to Montauk. Boat ended up being rewired, etc.

Bottom line: Thinking that your Whaler is "invincible" rather than one that will float 'somehow' after being flooded is just pure nonsense. Maybe on a millpond... not in the real world.

BTW, we pretty routinely take green water over the transom of the Montauk while spearfishing in "The Race", between Montauk NY and Fishers Island. I have a 3600 GPH bilge pump on the deck, aft starboard quarter, and the routine after being flooded is to run forward to splash as much over the transom as possible, let the HUGE bilge pump do most of the rest, and then let the "baby bilge pump" in the pump-well dry the balance out. The key is to remain VERY centered in the hull... and not to ever run broadside to the waves after being flooded. Lay broadside, or step to the gunwale and they will roll over. Trust me on this. I am sure I have about as much real-world experience doing this as anyone, and I can say without any doubt that once a Montauk is filled to the brim that is had damned little stability.

Thinking that these boats are all going to be "floating upright" after being flooded is just pure poppycock written by people who read and believe) too many advertisements and who never have actually been in harms way in these boats.

Don't get me wrong, they are good boats, and are our first choice for the specialized diving that we do, but they are hardly idiot-proof.

Dave

.

posted 12-05-2010 11:16 PM ET (US)            

One adjustment... only two guys were *in* the boat. One was swimming beside it...... ;-)

The point is that no boat is a magic carpet. To have faith and confidence in your boat is one thing. To think that "unsinkable" means "invincible" is just plain stupid.

We use Whalers because of their mix of capabilities. Every one of the divers that I know who regularly spearfishes The Race uses a 17 Montauk... 100% of them. That's a total of three people... with three Whalers. This is the big leagues, as anyone who fishes these waters well knows.

"Why would anyone take a boat out in conditions that allows their boat to swamp in the first place?"

Because you are doing something that has personal value? We need a boat that can be boarded by a diver wearing his fins, without using a ladder, so he can make multiple drift-dives over the rips. We are in and out of the boat an average of 50 times a day each. Low gunwales with rails removed make that possible. We pick up the divers in standing waves downstream of one of the worlds most dynamic reef structures, a pinnicle that is 20 feet deep at the top with nearly 300 feet deep water 200 yards on either side if it, with a 2-3 knot current at full tide. You can imagine the standing waves that stack up over the reef. We need to do so with the engine in idle, so as to not chop up the diver with the prop. When you do that, you drift abeam to the seas. The Montauk is the only boat we have ever used that fits that mission with relative safety. Note that I say "relative". Yes, it has inherant danger. Yes, you can get killed if you make a mistake. No, it's not for the inexperienced. And yes, you need a good boat and the ability to run it "like your life depends on it", because it does.

We use Whalers. We don't base our boat choice on advertising that says "It's unsinkable", nor on a false sense of security that it will "float level when filled". They don't.

There's a difference between "thinking" and "knowing". We *know* what the boats will do... and we exploit their strengths to spearfish in one of the most challenging areas known. If you want to run with the big dogs, you need to get off of the porch sometimes. We are probably the "One-Percenters of Whalering", and that's what we enjoy.

"Toll the bell, call up the ghosts, summon out the lifesavers and the pirates. The shoals are there still, the winds howl loud, the rain beats down, the waves burst strong. Some night, in the chill darkness, someone will make a mistake: The sea will show him no mercy".

Use good gear. Use it well. And know it's limitations. "Floating Level" after being broached by a wave? Maybe in a millpond, as I said before. To trust that false hope in time of need might cost you your life.

Dave

.

posted 12-06-2010 02:12 AM ET (US)            

My meager contribution to this thread is to offer that since BW makes or has made, so very many models over the past 50 years, it would seem preposterous, at least at first blush, that every single one of them has the legendary seaworthiness of the best Boston Whalers, merely because it is made by Boston Whaler.

posted 12-06-2010 09:42 AM ET (US)            

Yes, we used an 18 Outrage for one season. It was more comfortable but did not work as well. The issue is that you cannot "belly into the boat" witout using a ladder. When you are in and out of the boat 50 times a day you cannot be removing fins for ladders, and even the transom mounted ladders are dangerous in a seaway as they put you too close to the engine, which even out of gear can smack the living crap out of you. The dive-door Guardians are wetter and less safe than then Montauk when run with the door open, which we would need to do. The Montauk is perfect. I can stay fully geared up, kneeling on the RPS to run the boat with the RPS swung forward and my knees on the bench, fins still on (mask too), and run from one spot to another for the next drift. The Montauks have been ideal. Just have a big bilge pump installed and be careful.

Dave

posted 12-06-2010 06:24 PM ET (US)            

We dive too, and use the 18/19 hull in rough seas (northsea europe).

We have swapped these boats for testing purpose many times in difficult conditions, but they never become unstable at all and you can not swap them enoug to become unstable in rough seas.

posted 12-06-2010 10:04 PM ET (US)            

Unfortunately, using one would preclude us being successful spearfishermen. We are doing apnea (breath holding) diving onto a small pinnicle in a 2-3 knot current, diving to 10-12-15 meters with water of 100 meters less than 200 meters to either side of the pinnicle. We jump in 200 or more meters upstream, run the boat about 100 meters downstream from the diver, and drift the combination towards the pinnicle (and towards standing waves that are often 1 meter or more in height, driven by the strong current and the upwelling water as it passes over the underwater mountain). When the boat sees the water depth decreasing, the driver signals the diver, who begins the dive. If we time it right, the current sweeps him to the top of the pinnicle as he descends. if we do not time it right... well, let's say he can get pretty deep and not see the bottom. You get *one* chance, and then back into the boat. Run back thru the standing waves and do it again. And again. And again. 50 times each day is average. You cannot take your fins off, you simply hold you speargun up so the boat sees you, the boat approaches, goes into neutral as you are alongside, and the diver hands in the gun, grabs the gunwale, and kicks into the boat. Takes less than 10 seconds including handing up the gun. The fun starts when a diver surfaces in those conditions with a 40 pound striped bass at the end of the line. We use reels, so the diver can sjurface and then fight the fish, so he is likely to have 40-60 feet of line out with a fish on the other end. The way that is handled is for him to hand the gun into the boat, and hand-fight the fish-line from the water as the guy in the boat retrieves the slack line. During that time the boat is out of gear, so will drift side-to after a while. We try to get downstream of the standing waves to do this, but it can still be a chore, and a wet boat is the norm. It wad during that phase of the fight that we turtled the Montauk. Note that we had been doing this for fifteen years before that incuident, and have not had it happen since. Our dewatering system works fine, and we are pretty darned careful.

Montauks work like no other boat for this type of fishing.

We SCUBA dive from much larger boats, BTW. My 42 foot diving boat for one, and from larger 'small boats' also. I'm in the middle of working to get a 19 Outrage now, but it will not be a spearfishiing boat.

What an earlier poster said is correct: The Whaler reputation for being excellent sea boats was a reputation earned by "The Powered Surfboards" (13's and 17's), which were FAR more seaworthy when they were first introduced than ANY other boat of the same length. That reputation was reinforced by the smaller Outrage series boats, but not to the same extent. It was NOT a reputation earned by the larger boats. Take this as the reason: Almost any of the 22+ foot type boats made by any REPUTABLE maker handle things about the same as any other. What was SHOCKING was the way the 13's and 17's handled things. Everyone expects a 22 foot boat to be able to handle 4-5 foot seas. What NOBODY expected circa 1965 was that a 13 or 17 foot boat could do so. THAT is what earned Whalers the reputation that they have. Really, my personal opinion, is that the current production Whalers are riding on the coat-tails of the older boats reputations. None of them are especially "special" in my humble opinion. I've been a Whaler Family Member since 1963 when my Dad fell in love with the Nasuet. I've owned them in all sizes from 9 to 21. But I would never buy one of the new ones. None of them scratch my itch. But that's just me.

Dave

posted 12-07-2010 12:51 PM ET (US)            

quote:

---

What an earlier poster said is correct: The Whaler reputation for being excellent sea boats was a reputation earned by "The Powered Surfboards" (13's and 17's), which were FAR more seaworthy when they were first introduced than ANY other boat of the same length.

---

Take it from someone who is not only new to Whaler's but new to boating in general: To a guy like me, the classic 13,15,17's ARE Boston Whaler. As in, Boston Whaler corporation IS the classic 13,15,17. The other BW models are "BWINO's". Boston Whaler In Name Only. How's that for a made up word? :)

Again, this is my perspective as a new boater and a new'ish Whaler owner, who has heard of Boston Whaler most of my life.

posted 12-07-2010 01:21 PM ET (US)            

Ouch, Peter. You're gonna cause a riot on this website with a statement like that. I agree that BW originally made its reputation, beginning I think back in 1958, with the boats you name, but many of us here believe that "real" Whalers were most of those produced though the end of Dougherty's involvement in the early '90s (plus the commercial divisions stuff based on classic designs).

I'm sure you hit the 'Submit Reply' tab without thinking through your assertion, which would label such incredibly Whaler BWs as the classic Outrage 18, the 22 & 25 Outrage cuddys, the rib-sided banana 'dump trucks', and the beautiful, wonderfully utilitarian post-banana Revenge series -- not to mention the Guardians, Justices, and other tried-and-true military and commercial versions, as "Boston Whalers in Name Only."

I don't think so...

posted 12-07-2010 02:32 PM ET (US)            

Never mind, however; I think I get what you're trying to say, and I actually agree with you to some extent. For most normal human beings who have heard of and seen Boston Whaler motorboats (as opposed to the abnormally obsessed members of this forum), the classic 13s, 15s & 16/17s DO represent 'true' Whalers. In fact, many of my Whalerless fishing buddies up here north of San Francisco--especially the oldtimers--automatically refer to all cabinless BWs as 'Montauks', just because, I suppose, there are so many Montauks up here compared with the other, somewhat similar BWs. And let's admit it, the nomenclature IS bizarre and challenging -- e.g., the same 16'7" hulls, smirked and smirkless, known as both "16"s and "17"s depending upon date of manufacture; classic Montauks vs. the post-classic MT 150, 170, 190 series; the confusion about the three (or is it four) different models designated "Outrage 18 and/or 19"; etc.

Anyway, a rose by any other name is still unsinkable, so they say. How's your hunt for a (classic!) Montauk going?

posted 12-07-2010 05:08 PM ET (US)            

I noticed you bought the nice 19 Guardian with dive door, many congrats with this fine looking boat.

posted 12-07-2010 08:02 PM ET (US)            

P.S. I do hope this qualifies as candor and not one of my usually rude and nonsensical(Jimh will tell me if that is a real word)replies. I do hope you enjoy whatever boat you have or will choose from the lineup. Someday I too will find that Nauset of my dreams and join in the bashing of others.

posted 12-07-2010 09:55 PM ET (US)            

I think it's an excellent toungue in cheek addition to the lexicon, even if the edges of the definition are "fuzzy". I think everyone gets the jist of it. There's enough truth to it to have it at least be understandable to the group. "pre and post classic" is the PC term. I like yours better... ;-)

Dave

posted 12-08-2010 09:15 AM ET (US)            

We do... never fear.

I use the "Mother in Law" rule: My Mother in Law recognizes a 13 and a Montauk as "Whalers". She recognizes all the rest at "Little Boats".

Welcome Aboard.

posted 12-08-2010 10:50 PM ET (US)            

"Death-Traps". That's why I dive a CIS Mk-5P... ;-)

The only Russian hardware I stake my life on these days is a MiG, and that's another topic.

There's plenty of Whalering and other types of boats for all. What's important is using them, and enjoying them. Congrats to the original poster on his new boat. Enjoy it!

Best,

Dave

posted 12-09-2010 01:36 AM ET (US)            

We were up there years ago and fished out of one of the 17 foot Whalers they had.

What a beautiful area!