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Author Topic:   The Future of Recreational Boating

jimh posted 01-16-2011 10:27 AM ET (US)
Read on if you are willing to indulge me in this personal rant. My focus is not really on boating, but on education in the United States. Perhaps one could make a link to education and boating because in order for recreational boating to continue there will have to be enough people who can afford to indulge in recreational boating, which is admittedly a somewhat expensive pastime. To obtain financial success which permits disposable income for recreational boating generally requires good education and achievement. In the U.S. there is a strong correlation between income and education in our society. One might say that future recreational boaters will be likely to be well-educated people. What worries me is the state of education in our country at the present.
The following data is drawn from the U.S. Department of Education National Center for Education Statistics website. See:
http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/2009/analysis/
Mathematics
In a 2006 study , the U.S. 15-year-old student's average mathematics literacy score of 474 was below the average (498) and in the bottom quarter of participating nations. Students in 23 of the 29 other participating countries outperformed their U.S. peers.
Here is a sample question from the test, scored as a "level-1" or easiest level problem:
Mei-Ling from Singapore was preparing to go to South Africa for three months as an exchange student. She needed to change some Singapore dollars (SGD) into South African rand (ZAR).
Mei-Ling found out that the exchange rate between Singapore dollars and South African rand was: 1 SgD = 4.2 ZAR
Mei-Ling changed 3,000 Singapore dollars into South African rand at this exchange rate. How much money in South African rand did Mei-Ling get?
About 80-percent of all students taking the test got this correct. See
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/30/17/39703267.pdf page 306 to 310 for more.
Science
In a 2006 study , the U.S. 15-year-old student's average science literacy score of 489 was below average (500) and was in the bottom third of participating nations. Students in 16 of the 29 other participating OECD-member countries outperformed their U.S. peers.
Here is a sample question from a similar test:
Which food contains the highest percentage of protein?
--A: rice
--B: dates
--C: carrots
--D: chicken
More in http://timss.bc.edu/timss2007/PDF/T07_G8_Released_Items_SCI.zip
Reading
In a 2006, the average U.S. 4th-grade reading literacy score of 540 was above average (500) but below that of 4th-graders in 10 of the 45 participating countries. Students in the Russian Federation, Hong Kong, Alberta, British Columbia, Singapore, Luxembourg, Ontario, Hungary, Italy, and Sweden had higher scores.
Other Random Data Points
On a local note, my old High School in Detroit has been closed. On a recent state-wide achievement test of mathematic skills, only FOUR-PERCENT of the graduating seniors achieved a passing score.
A recent report from the Education Trust (a non-profit organization) found that among certain state sub-populations as much as 47-percent of potential enrollees could not pass the Army's Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery test. The test consists of 99 questions, with 31 correct answer being the minimum passing grade. It was noted that overall 23-percent of recent applicants for military enrollment failed the test. See
http://www.edtrust.org/sites/edtrust.org/files/publications/files/ ASVAB_4.pdf
I hope you find this sample of statistical data about education in the U.S. to be provocative.
[Thread closed. Thanks for reading my personal rant. Send me email if you have a comment.]

Newtauk1 posted 01-16-2011 10:45 AM ET (US)
I see the reduction of water craft around me as a good thing.
ConB posted 01-16-2011 11:56 AM ET (US)
My daughter and son-in-law are both school teachers in northern Michigan. Some other their stories do not give me optimism.
Con
PeteB88 posted 01-16-2011 12:23 PM ET (US)
Don't blame the teachers! This is about much bigger issue.
For example the Michigan merit exam (MEAP test) passing standards have been lowered by bureaucrats over last several years. Last year for 8th grade the cut score (proficiency level) was 38% meaning if a kid scored 38% or higher s/he passed.
Worry.
contender posted 01-16-2011 12:50 PM ET (US)
Pete is correct, My wife is also a teacher and I have seen the same thing and it makes me sick. The government stepping in to tell the teachers and school how to teacher is our down fall(you can not believe the rules that they have imposed on the school systems). They do not fail kids anymore, they have lowered the passing grades, everyone gets a medal/award on field day and at end of the year. This thing about being politically correct is insane, call it like it is and stop walking on egg shells...It is so said what this country has become...
modenacart posted 01-16-2011 01:28 PM ET (US)
I think the problem with the US is the devaluing of trade schools. Just because you go to college, doesn't mean you are going to make a lot of money, I believe the year I graduated university (2001) the average income of a graduate was $32,000. If that is the prospective income when you graduate with the degree you are pursuing, you are wasting your money, unless you just want the education (if this is the case, you most likely have a ton of money anyway). For me, going to university was purely to gain the skills to obtain a job that has decent pay. Athletes are doing this too, which is why I never understood why they stay to finish their degree when they are projected to make millions if they go ahead and go pro. You may not always be healthy, you most likely will be able to go back and finish. Some of the richer people around are people who learn a skill and learn how to sell it.
home Aside posted 01-16-2011 01:38 PM ET (US)
Anyone else notice the Bee's Nest in here?
I went to college, graduated, and have some grad work under my belt....I'll tell you why, and it's not just in education... but a lot of you won't like it so I'll keep it to myself for now...
Pat
pcrussell50 posted 01-16-2011 01:43 PM ET (US)
I agree with Pete and contender... it's not all on the teachers shoulders. The problem is large and insidious and has to do with content and expectations, and to some degree, "lottery mentality", where many of our pop culture icons are dumb as a box of rocks, and look, "they made it, without being educated! So can I". On the flipside, we shouldn't be paying teachers $150k/year, with retirement in their 40's at 90% of their highest pay... like we do with, say, CHP troopers. Something we also should not be doing.
-Peter
dscew posted 01-16-2011 01:44 PM ET (US)
I read on line last week that law degrees arent't resulting in jobs anymore because of the glut of lawyers out there. The schools are promising big jobs with lots of money, and the grads are working at McDonalds and carrying $250,000 in school loans. While they should have been looking at the market, I think what some schools do to get enrollments is despicable.
I'd also agree that the teachers are generally not to blame. They try to teach with both hands tied behind their backs and get sued if they flunk anyone. This is getting scary.
And modenacart, you're right also--trades are an extremely valuable part of our economy.
wezie posted 01-16-2011 02:53 PM ET (US)
Been dumbing 'em down for 40 years. Every one has rights, including the right to be stupid. Stick an ear bud in and turn up the noise.
Let us not use scores or numbers to identify success or achievement, just some PC, subjective term to keep everyone happy.
Those in the teaching profession know well what I mean.
Crowded water:
When the mass production of an item ends, most of us will not be able to afford those items. All those boats around us help to keep the prices lower; even though inflation and regulations keep pushing them up.
Only mass production places any of these items into our grasp.
Yes, you can build a boat; try it!
Try to build an engine.
DaveS posted 01-16-2011 04:22 PM ET (US)
OK...I'll put my 2 cents in. As a teacher of 25 years, (has it been that long?), I've taught everything from Woodshop to Math and Science. I've taught rich kids and I've taught homeless kids. The main factor in determining success, IMHO, are the parents. If the parents are involved in their child's education, the hardest battle has been won. A perfect illustration of this is during parent/teacher conferences. I'll see about 5-10 parents (out of 130 students) during this time, (where are the others???). I'll give you three guesses how their kids are performing in my class.
Jerry Townsend posted 01-16-2011 04:57 PM ET (US)
Education is not necesarily required, but it sure helps. There are many, uneducated people in our country - and just one example, - the average salary of the U.S. Postal Service employee is around $75,000 per year. And other "government employees" - a typical salary in D.C. is probably north of $100,000.
And then, look at virtually anyone belonging to a union. What is the average salary of typical car manufacturer assembly line employee? And the plumber - the electrician - the carpenter - the bus driver - the road construction flagger - et al. This has to be a HUGH factor in our deteriorating education system - as a high school student realizing that he/she can be in any of these activities, make bundles of money and doesn't need an education.
There is no question our education system is out of whack! There are many contributors to this problem - but way up front is our "government". For example, "governmental" funding being based on an educational system's performance - leads to artifical and unearned grades and advancement. Another big deteriorating factor is the "government's" forbiding punishment of unrulely students. Of course, our extreme legal system has contributed to this problem as well.
Another point - some complain about the high teacher salaries - I'm not sure what the numbers are - but I am not surprised - as the teachers salaries, generous benefits and job security are compliments of the unions.
Frankly, our deterioating educational system has been most disturbing to me - as I have taught technical subjects at one university and one college. Part of this deterioration has been caused by the computer - which caused some to stop thinking - let the computer do the math, writing and spelling. And this effect is not only at the high school level - but I have also seen it in college graduates.
Houston - we have a problem!
Now - in view of these problems - and others, what can we do to correct it? --- Jerry/Idaho
tjxtreme posted 01-16-2011 05:26 PM ET (US)
I think there is something to be said for the anti-intellectualism that is now popular in today's politics (GW Bush, Palin to name a few). I am not sure if it is a cause, effect, or coincidence, but the trend seems to correspond to the decrease in educational standards.
themclos posted 01-16-2011 05:45 PM ET (US)
DaveS has it right. The education level of the parents is the best indicator of student success.
Don't let these statistics fool you. This country still produces large numbers of students whose achievement levels match or exceed those of the countries who are allegedly surpassing us.
This country produces the greatest number of innovators and business leaders in the world.
When you remove the numbers produced by the large amount of students who, by and large, do not stand a chance of succeeding, the testing statistics of the remaining students provides a better indicator of how our future leaders perform.
How one does in school is largely a matter of your socio-economic situation. If you are a child in a 2 parent, middle class or better household (better yet if your parents are college educated), you will perform reasonably well in school.
The large urban areas of NY, DC, Los Angeles, Houston, Dallas, Detroit and others, have large numbers of poor households and broken families. They have large dropout rates and low percentages of students who achieve at "average" levels. These kids, by and large, do not stand a chance. The failings of these kids are not due to teachers or schools, but are the failings of the parents and families.
contender posted 01-16-2011 07:38 PM ET (US)
tjxtreme: You should not dare to bring politics into the picture, For if I recall there is someone one in office right now that refuses to share his education and how he got it...Stick to the subject...
Newtauk1 posted 01-16-2011 10:41 PM ET (US)
Parents can influence a childs success or failure the most. Single parents can not do the work of two to support a child. A child has the opportunity to be educated at every point in their lives starting at birth. It's the parents role to ALWAYS be teaching by participating, setting good examples, communicating, and providing a loving atomsphere to prosper.
Relying on strangers at school to educate a child is only a small part of the equation. Our children should be attending school to thrive in acedemics not to be parented.
In reality teachers today have to do many of the things parents should have done already such as instilling values, teaching politeness and providing nutrition.
Unfortunately too many parents believe they are active in their childs education because they dump their children off at the bus stop and pick them up at the end of the day. They do not sit with them and discuss their day, do home work assignments or prepare them in any way for the next day.
jimh posted 01-16-2011 11:09 PM ET (US)
OOPHS! I really meant to close this off. I will now.
I thought the statistical data was interesting. I thought it should be more widely disseminated.

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Author	Topic: The Future of Recreational Boating
jimh	posted 01-16-2011 10:27 AM ET (US) Read on if you are willing to indulge me in this personal rant. My focus is not really on boating, but on education in the United States. Perhaps one could make a link to education and boating because in order for recreational boating to continue there will have to be enough people who can afford to indulge in recreational boating, which is admittedly a somewhat expensive pastime. To obtain financial success which permits disposable income for recreational boating generally requires good education and achievement. In the U.S. there is a strong correlation between income and education in our society. One might say that future recreational boaters will be likely to be well-educated people. What worries me is the state of education in our country at the present. The following data is drawn from the U.S. Department of Education National Center for Education Statistics website. See: http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/2009/analysis/ Mathematics In a 2006 study , the U.S. 15-year-old student's average mathematics literacy score of 474 was below the average (498) and in the bottom quarter of participating nations. Students in 23 of the 29 other participating countries outperformed their U.S. peers. Here is a sample question from the test, scored as a "level-1" or easiest level problem: Mei-Ling from Singapore was preparing to go to South Africa for three months as an exchange student. She needed to change some Singapore dollars (SGD) into South African rand (ZAR). Mei-Ling found out that the exchange rate between Singapore dollars and South African rand was: 1 SgD = 4.2 ZAR Mei-Ling changed 3,000 Singapore dollars into South African rand at this exchange rate. How much money in South African rand did Mei-Ling get? About 80-percent of all students taking the test got this correct. See http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/30/17/39703267.pdf page 306 to 310 for more. Science In a 2006 study , the U.S. 15-year-old student's average science literacy score of 489 was below average (500) and was in the bottom third of participating nations. Students in 16 of the 29 other participating OECD-member countries outperformed their U.S. peers. Here is a sample question from a similar test: Which food contains the highest percentage of protein? --A: rice --B: dates --C: carrots --D: chicken More in http://timss.bc.edu/timss2007/PDF/T07_G8_Released_Items_SCI.zip Reading In a 2006, the average U.S. 4th-grade reading literacy score of 540 was above average (500) but below that of 4th-graders in 10 of the 45 participating countries. Students in the Russian Federation, Hong Kong, Alberta, British Columbia, Singapore, Luxembourg, Ontario, Hungary, Italy, and Sweden had higher scores. Other Random Data Points On a local note, my old High School in Detroit has been closed. On a recent state-wide achievement test of mathematic skills, only FOUR-PERCENT of the graduating seniors achieved a passing score. A recent report from the Education Trust (a non-profit organization) found that among certain state sub-populations as much as 47-percent of potential enrollees could not pass the Army's Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery test. The test consists of 99 questions, with 31 correct answer being the minimum passing grade. It was noted that overall 23-percent of recent applicants for military enrollment failed the test. See http://www.edtrust.org/sites/edtrust.org/files/publications/files/ ASVAB_4.pdf I hope you find this sample of statistical data about education in the U.S. to be provocative. [Thread closed. Thanks for reading my personal rant. Send me email if you have a comment.]
Newtauk1	posted 01-16-2011 10:45 AM ET (US) I see the reduction of water craft around me as a good thing.
ConB	posted 01-16-2011 11:56 AM ET (US) My daughter and son-in-law are both school teachers in northern Michigan. Some other their stories do not give me optimism. Con
PeteB88	posted 01-16-2011 12:23 PM ET (US) Don't blame the teachers! This is about much bigger issue. For example the Michigan merit exam (MEAP test) passing standards have been lowered by bureaucrats over last several years. Last year for 8th grade the cut score (proficiency level) was 38% meaning if a kid scored 38% or higher s/he passed. Worry.
contender	posted 01-16-2011 12:50 PM ET (US) Pete is correct, My wife is also a teacher and I have seen the same thing and it makes me sick. The government stepping in to tell the teachers and school how to teacher is our down fall(you can not believe the rules that they have imposed on the school systems). They do not fail kids anymore, they have lowered the passing grades, everyone gets a medal/award on field day and at end of the year. This thing about being politically correct is insane, call it like it is and stop walking on egg shells...It is so said what this country has become...
modenacart	posted 01-16-2011 01:28 PM ET (US) I think the problem with the US is the devaluing of trade schools. Just because you go to college, doesn't mean you are going to make a lot of money, I believe the year I graduated university (2001) the average income of a graduate was $32,000. If that is the prospective income when you graduate with the degree you are pursuing, you are wasting your money, unless you just want the education (if this is the case, you most likely have a ton of money anyway). For me, going to university was purely to gain the skills to obtain a job that has decent pay. Athletes are doing this too, which is why I never understood why they stay to finish their degree when they are projected to make millions if they go ahead and go pro. You may not always be healthy, you most likely will be able to go back and finish. Some of the richer people around are people who learn a skill and learn how to sell it.
home Aside	posted 01-16-2011 01:38 PM ET (US) Anyone else notice the Bee's Nest in here? I went to college, graduated, and have some grad work under my belt....I'll tell you why, and it's not just in education... but a lot of you won't like it so I'll keep it to myself for now... Pat
pcrussell50	posted 01-16-2011 01:43 PM ET (US) I agree with Pete and contender... it's not all on the teachers shoulders. The problem is large and insidious and has to do with content and expectations, and to some degree, "lottery mentality", where many of our pop culture icons are dumb as a box of rocks, and look, "they made it, without being educated! So can I". On the flipside, we shouldn't be paying teachers $150k/year, with retirement in their 40's at 90% of their highest pay... like we do with, say, CHP troopers. Something we also should not be doing. -Peter
dscew	posted 01-16-2011 01:44 PM ET (US) I read on line last week that law degrees arent't resulting in jobs anymore because of the glut of lawyers out there. The schools are promising big jobs with lots of money, and the grads are working at McDonalds and carrying $250,000 in school loans. While they should have been looking at the market, I think what some schools do to get enrollments is despicable. I'd also agree that the teachers are generally not to blame. They try to teach with both hands tied behind their backs and get sued if they flunk anyone. This is getting scary. And modenacart, you're right also--trades are an extremely valuable part of our economy.
wezie	posted 01-16-2011 02:53 PM ET (US) Been dumbing 'em down for 40 years. Every one has rights, including the right to be stupid. Stick an ear bud in and turn up the noise. Let us not use scores or numbers to identify success or achievement, just some PC, subjective term to keep everyone happy. Those in the teaching profession know well what I mean. Crowded water: When the mass production of an item ends, most of us will not be able to afford those items. All those boats around us help to keep the prices lower; even though inflation and regulations keep pushing them up. Only mass production places any of these items into our grasp. Yes, you can build a boat; try it! Try to build an engine.
DaveS	posted 01-16-2011 04:22 PM ET (US) OK...I'll put my 2 cents in. As a teacher of 25 years, (has it been that long?), I've taught everything from Woodshop to Math and Science. I've taught rich kids and I've taught homeless kids. The main factor in determining success, IMHO, are the parents. If the parents are involved in their child's education, the hardest battle has been won. A perfect illustration of this is during parent/teacher conferences. I'll see about 5-10 parents (out of 130 students) during this time, (where are the others???). I'll give you three guesses how their kids are performing in my class.
Jerry Townsend	posted 01-16-2011 04:57 PM ET (US) Education is not necesarily required, but it sure helps. There are many, uneducated people in our country - and just one example, - the average salary of the U.S. Postal Service employee is around $75,000 per year. And other "government employees" - a typical salary in D.C. is probably north of $100,000. And then, look at virtually anyone belonging to a union. What is the average salary of typical car manufacturer assembly line employee? And the plumber - the electrician - the carpenter - the bus driver - the road construction flagger - et al. This has to be a HUGH factor in our deteriorating education system - as a high school student realizing that he/she can be in any of these activities, make bundles of money and doesn't need an education. There is no question our education system is out of whack! There are many contributors to this problem - but way up front is our "government". For example, "governmental" funding being based on an educational system's performance - leads to artifical and unearned grades and advancement. Another big deteriorating factor is the "government's" forbiding punishment of unrulely students. Of course, our extreme legal system has contributed to this problem as well. Another point - some complain about the high teacher salaries - I'm not sure what the numbers are - but I am not surprised - as the teachers salaries, generous benefits and job security are compliments of the unions. Frankly, our deterioating educational system has been most disturbing to me - as I have taught technical subjects at one university and one college. Part of this deterioration has been caused by the computer - which caused some to stop thinking - let the computer do the math, writing and spelling. And this effect is not only at the high school level - but I have also seen it in college graduates. Houston - we have a problem! Now - in view of these problems - and others, what can we do to correct it? --- Jerry/Idaho
tjxtreme	posted 01-16-2011 05:26 PM ET (US) I think there is something to be said for the anti-intellectualism that is now popular in today's politics (GW Bush, Palin to name a few). I am not sure if it is a cause, effect, or coincidence, but the trend seems to correspond to the decrease in educational standards.
themclos	posted 01-16-2011 05:45 PM ET (US) DaveS has it right. The education level of the parents is the best indicator of student success. Don't let these statistics fool you. This country still produces large numbers of students whose achievement levels match or exceed those of the countries who are allegedly surpassing us. This country produces the greatest number of innovators and business leaders in the world. When you remove the numbers produced by the large amount of students who, by and large, do not stand a chance of succeeding, the testing statistics of the remaining students provides a better indicator of how our future leaders perform. How one does in school is largely a matter of your socio-economic situation. If you are a child in a 2 parent, middle class or better household (better yet if your parents are college educated), you will perform reasonably well in school. The large urban areas of NY, DC, Los Angeles, Houston, Dallas, Detroit and others, have large numbers of poor households and broken families. They have large dropout rates and low percentages of students who achieve at "average" levels. These kids, by and large, do not stand a chance. The failings of these kids are not due to teachers or schools, but are the failings of the parents and families.
contender	posted 01-16-2011 07:38 PM ET (US) tjxtreme: You should not dare to bring politics into the picture, For if I recall there is someone one in office right now that refuses to share his education and how he got it...Stick to the subject...
Newtauk1	posted 01-16-2011 10:41 PM ET (US) Parents can influence a childs success or failure the most. Single parents can not do the work of two to support a child. A child has the opportunity to be educated at every point in their lives starting at birth. It's the parents role to ALWAYS be teaching by participating, setting good examples, communicating, and providing a loving atomsphere to prosper. Relying on strangers at school to educate a child is only a small part of the equation. Our children should be attending school to thrive in acedemics not to be parented. In reality teachers today have to do many of the things parents should have done already such as instilling values, teaching politeness and providing nutrition. Unfortunately too many parents believe they are active in their childs education because they dump their children off at the bus stop and pick them up at the end of the day. They do not sit with them and discuss their day, do home work assignments or prepare them in any way for the next day.
jimh	posted 01-16-2011 11:09 PM ET (US) OOPHS! I really meant to close this off. I will now. I thought the statistical data was interesting. I thought it should be more widely disseminated.