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Author Topic:   Outboard Fanatics

pcrussell50 posted 02-16-2011 09:47 PM ET (US)
What is it about outboards that makes some folks so fanatical about them? The thread about the GM outboards being financed by folks who want to go 50-MPH on 50-foot boats WITH outboards, got me wondering. These people must be really fanatical about them. I love outboards, too, but I like fast little skiffs where they are the obvious choice. What is the allure to outboards to make people go to such desperate and expensive measures to fit them where they have traditionally never been before? I'm not sure I get it. Further, the fact that they are generally more accessible for servicing than inboards does not pass muster with me as the kind of folks who are going the spend closer to a million bucks than not, on one of those boats are most assuredly NOT going to be doing their own maintenance.
-Peter
BobL posted 02-16-2011 10:36 PM ET (US)
With the advent of high horsepower outboards, they are practical for boats that were previously powered by [sterndrives]. Big two-strokes use too much gas to make sense for boats in the 24 to 36-foot range. Multiple large four-stroke outboards use a comparable amount of fuel to [sterndrive engines] without the hassles of outdrives and the high maintenance of engines in cramped quarters sitting inches above bilge water. [Sterndrives] have their place but big four-strokes add another performance choice.
contender posted 02-16-2011 10:40 PM ET (US)
Trust me it's because they have so much money it just does not matter, they want something that no one has and they do not care about the price. I once was contracted for a small electrical job on a home purchased by one of these people on Miami Beach Star Island. At the this time the person was rank tenth-richest person in the world. The house was pulling so much electrical power, FPL had to build a sub-station on the property. There were two 8V71 Detroit Diesels that ran two generators in case of a power failure. The best thing was there was an easy 50-foot oak on the property. They enclosed the entire tree for a bird cage. The house had everything. It was just insane: three pools, helicopter landing zone, dock for a 100-ft yacht, bowling alley--I could go on--and this was over 20 years ago. Trust me money was no object, no way, no how.
macfam posted 02-16-2011 10:45 PM ET (US)
I think it's the "Hey, look at me" phenomenon. More go, more show. It is also very simple and more profitable for the manufacturer of the hull to build it strong, and bolt them on. Replacement down the road is easier and more profitable too.
Why do outboard maufacturers slap their name so obstrusively, in big letters, on the outboards?
You could put "Verado" in much smaller letters on the side, and EVERYBODY still knows it's a Verado. Same with E-TEC, Suzuki, Honda, Yamaha etc. I think the moters would look so much nicer with more subdued nameplates.
It reminds me of the Boston Whalers with the word "Whaler" in HUGE red letters on the side. Yes, we know it's a Boston Whaler. Can you imagine cars with the whole side taken up with "Mercedes", "Acura", "Infiniti" of "Audi" splashed in red?
I must be getting old.
Peter posted 02-17-2011 05:57 AM ET (US)
The advantage of big, 250-HP and up outboards for a boat maker like Intrepid is it provides a variety of bolt-on power options. No need to design the interior around different engines or have them take up interior room. The boat that these enormous twins are on would probably needs quads to run right and so the twins simplify rigging. One might even say that they are less pretentious and better looking than having three, four, or even five outboards bolted to the transom.
Also, with outboards, there is at least one less hole below the waterline in the boat--entire drive train is hanging on back, instead of poking thru bottom or transom. Lowers risk of sinking.
cohasett73 posted 02-17-2011 08:35 AM ET (US)
Do any of you guys subscribe to Sport Fishing Magazine?
The answer to Peter' question lies offshore fishing tournaments.
Tom from Rubicon,WI
andygere posted 02-20-2011 12:44 AM ET (US)
The most attractive aspect of outboard motors is the ability to keep the powerhead and drive unit completely out of the water when the boat is not operating.
Tom W Clark posted 02-20-2011 11:03 AM ET (US)
Peter (Russell),
Your curiosity is not unusual. We have heard these questions before. For answers we need only look to the past.
In the 1970s outboards were very popular and common on recreational small craft. Back then, if your family owned a 20 or 25 foot power boat, it was considered big boat.
If you had a power boat larger than that, it was most likely a "Cabin Cruiser" and had inboard power or sterndrive power.
Then, in 1975, OMC revolutionized the outboard industry when they introduced the first V-6 outboard motor and it produced 200 HP.
I remember reading an introductory announcement (with a photo) in yachting Magazine and being incredulous an outboard motor could be made to put out 200 HP.
Many folks asked: "Why?" if you needed that much power, there were tried and true sterndrives available from many manufactures with power outputs up to 250 HP.
But the V-6 outboard caught on very, very fast, but you will note it did not spell the end to the sterndrive which lives on today and is still popular for many applications.
The whole sterndrive vs. outboard argument is a tired old one, just as the two stroke vs, four stroke debate is. Predictions of one technology winning out over another have not come true; both live on with places in the marketplace and with continued demand.
The new Seven Marine 557 may be just another option for boat builders to use and I can see it offering the benefits of both outboards and sterndrives. Innovation from one manufacturer will typically spur innovation from another as competition in the marketplace helps bring better products to the consumer. I am excited to see how the 557 does. Of course, it has to actually run before it can catch on ;-)
Binkster posted 02-20-2011 01:00 PM ET (US)
Tom, you`re off by one year(but good for you if you relied on memory,LOL) on the release of the OMC V6.
Here is a link to a site that shows sales brochures to every Johnson/Evinrude outboard from way, way, way(forgot the date) back to the present. Should be of interest to every OMC enthusiast. Scroll down for more recent decades.
Put this on your favorites;

http://www.etecownersgroup.com/post?id=3442997
Tom W Clark posted 02-20-2011 01:03 PM ET (US)
Nope, the Johnson/Evinrude 200 as introduced in the summer of 1975 for the 1976 model year.
contender posted 02-20-2011 01:38 PM ET (US)
What happen with the wankel outboard?
Binkster posted 02-20-2011 09:10 PM ET (US)
Tom, OK, I can be just as nitpicky :-). Regardless of when it was introduced, it was a `76 model. It was never in the `75 catalog.
Binkster posted 02-20-2011 09:50 PM ET (US)
Plain and simple. Your an outboard fanatic if you have a bunch of old or restored outboards sitting on sawhorses in your garage, and you have an old tin boat that you use to run these motors one by one. Your other boat is a modern one with a modern motor that you use for boating and fishing. Also your an upstanding member of AOMCI.
pcrussell50 posted 02-20-2011 11:56 PM ET (US)
Hey, I got started in boating not even three years ago... with a 1959 Super Seahorse 35hp, RDS-21B,"big twin". I knew nothing specifically about outboards, and gave that motor no quarter. As far as I can tell, it spent it's whole life in salt water, and as of a couple of months ago, it still is, at the hands of a young, die-hard fisherman. He even goes out in the ocean at 9pm and stays out all night hoop-netting lobster, and comes back at dawn. It had 125psi on both cylinders and all I ever did to it was to rewire the boat so that ignition, choke, and cranking, were all on separate, MIL-spec, waterproof toggle switches. That that 50 year old motor was still out there duking it out with the young'uns, really taught me a lesson in "they don't build them like they used to". Once, I even had the pleasure of towing a fellow boater in distress back in, who had a muuuch newer motor.
-Peter
Binkster posted 02-22-2011 12:54 PM ET (US)
Those early OMC big twins and the early OMC V4`s were some of the best outboards ever built, however they are very thirsty. Of course back in the day fuel economy was not important. Peter, I noticed that you also have a 135 hp OMC. Is it a `73-75 V-4. I`ve been looking for one. Also a great motor with gobs of power.
Tohsgib posted 02-22-2011 01:06 PM ET (US)
Ha...got you on that one Binks...the 135 was made through the 1976 model year. So, like Tom, the 140hp debuted in 1976 as a 1977 model year engine and included a free SST prop, unlike the other V4's, to entice people away from the 150 V6 I guess.
pcrussell50 posted 02-22-2011 02:17 PM ET (US)
Binks, I now have 3 v4 crossflows. All bubblebacks:
-1975, 135hp with CMC tilt/setback
-1977, 140hp (Wiseco pistons that fix the "too high" top ring problem), with a mid-80's trim/tilt, and full manual shifting.
-1993, 115hp with VRO
The 1959 "big twin" is what turned me on to classic carbureted outboards. Then I just stumbled into v4 crossflows when I got the '75 135hp that came on a handlaid, gutted, clone of a Sidewinder LowPro.
The '77 140 is on a '77 Hydrosteam Viper, for those interested in vintage fast boats.
-Peter
Binkster posted 02-22-2011 02:37 PM ET (US)
Nick, The reason I mentioned the `73-`75 135 crossflow V-4 was according to the racers who race trihulls in mid-Texas, those years are the better ones. But then again I didn`t know when they stopped building them.
Peter, you have the engines, I`ll put together a trihull race boat, and we`ll meet in the middle of the country and go racin. Trihull racing looks like alot of fun. They run about 60mph on 16` trihulls.
Here is a bunch of videos.
pcrussell50 posted 02-22-2011 07:40 PM ET (US)
Back on topic, I clipped this from the GM outboard thread:

quote:
If these outboards ever make it to production, I bet the sell less than 1000 per year and most of those will be sold in the look-at-me Southern Florida market.
So thus my question... what is so "look at me" about outboards? Are they more glamorous than inboards? Is being being seen with outboards more prestigious at the country club water cooler than if you had marine diesels?
That is the part I don't get.
-Peter
Binkster posted 02-22-2011 09:08 PM ET (US)
Glad you asked that question, Peter. I think the reasoning behind the "hey look at me" attitude behind a buyer of a couple of these huge GM outboards is simply this. "I know it makes more sense to have a pair of powerful diesel inboards in my boat but I have so much money that I can hang a pair of these ridiculous outboards on the stern that cost more than diesels and not worry that its a stupid decision." Like buying a Beemer when they shoulda bought a Toyota, LOL.
pcrussell50 posted 02-22-2011 09:38 PM ET (US)
LOL, Binks. My question was more abstract though. Not specifically about -those- outboards, but any outboards...
Sooo...
Are outboards more prestigious than inboards?
I'm fascinated by those tri-hull racers. Do they run on pads? Where can I find a picture of the bottom of one? Offline of course.
-Peter
Tom W Clark posted 02-22-2011 09:44 PM ET (US)
Prestigious? What's more prestigious, a Porsche or a BMW?
pcrussell50 posted 02-22-2011 11:11 PM ET (US)
Porseche or BMW?
That's a question without a starkly obvious answer. Which is more prestigious, a Whaler or a Bayliner? That one has a more obvious answer.
I'm new to boating. When I see people desperate to put a square peg in a round hole, and put outboards on boats that traditionally don't have them, it leaves me compelled to ask.
-Peter
Hilinercc posted 02-23-2011 12:35 PM ET (US)
Wouldn't you all agree, that this new 557 motor is just the another evolutionary step in marine propulsion?
As Tom pointed out, the 200 OMC and 175 Black Max of 1976 generated alot of articles at the time, like the one mentioned in Yachting, asking why would we need a 200 hp outboard?. (just a little trivia, OMC's initial production run of the 200 was sold out by 12/75 (!)
Those engines blazed the trail for bigger 25 to 30 ft designs that are common today. Remember the days when a "long shaft" motor was 20"?
Now that builders like Intrepid, Grady and Whaler are all moving north of 35 ft., it was just a matter of time before a bigger motor came along. (and big Diesel outboards are at least on the drawing board). The big V6 motors can only do so much without strength in numbers.
This reminds me of the smae sort of debate regarding the Zeus and IPS pod drives, making the conventional shaft and prop obsolete, it won't really happen.
As far as prestige, the Caterpillar engine boat will always have more prestige than the Yamaha powered boat, thats if you know there's a cat under the hood.
dgoodhue posted 02-23-2011 01:56 PM ET (US)

quote:
what is so "look at me" about outboards?
I think the 'look at me' is when you have 4 Lage Outboards hanging off the transom or this case 2 or 3 massively sized Outboard, that I imagine dwarf the current crop of large outabords.
towboater posted 02-23-2011 02:33 PM ET (US)
Ive owned inboard, I/O and outboards.
It all boils down to desired deck space and purpose.
30 ft Skagit with twin 318 inboards was a lot of fun, miss that boat.
22 ft Taylor with built Harmon 460 pump was the best ski/play boat ever...75 mph all day.
26 ft Stamas with twin 250 Chev's and Alpha 1 legs never failed me.
Little 18 ft Whaler with console and outboard is awesome multipurpose boat to be able to reach any part of the gunwales.
So, to each his own, more power to ya. Enjoy.


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Author	Topic: Outboard Fanatics
pcrussell50	posted 02-16-2011 09:47 PM ET (US) What is it about outboards that makes some folks so fanatical about them? The thread about the GM outboards being financed by folks who want to go 50-MPH on 50-foot boats WITH outboards, got me wondering. These people must be really fanatical about them. I love outboards, too, but I like fast little skiffs where they are the obvious choice. What is the allure to outboards to make people go to such desperate and expensive measures to fit them where they have traditionally never been before? I'm not sure I get it. Further, the fact that they are generally more accessible for servicing than inboards does not pass muster with me as the kind of folks who are going the spend closer to a million bucks than not, on one of those boats are most assuredly NOT going to be doing their own maintenance. -Peter
BobL	posted 02-16-2011 10:36 PM ET (US) With the advent of high horsepower outboards, they are practical for boats that were previously powered by [sterndrives]. Big two-strokes use too much gas to make sense for boats in the 24 to 36-foot range. Multiple large four-stroke outboards use a comparable amount of fuel to [sterndrive engines] without the hassles of outdrives and the high maintenance of engines in cramped quarters sitting inches above bilge water. [Sterndrives] have their place but big four-strokes add another performance choice.
contender	posted 02-16-2011 10:40 PM ET (US) Trust me it's because they have so much money it just does not matter, they want something that no one has and they do not care about the price. I once was contracted for a small electrical job on a home purchased by one of these people on Miami Beach Star Island. At the this time the person was rank tenth-richest person in the world. The house was pulling so much electrical power, FPL had to build a sub-station on the property. There were two 8V71 Detroit Diesels that ran two generators in case of a power failure. The best thing was there was an easy 50-foot oak on the property. They enclosed the entire tree for a bird cage. The house had everything. It was just insane: three pools, helicopter landing zone, dock for a 100-ft yacht, bowling alley--I could go on--and this was over 20 years ago. Trust me money was no object, no way, no how.
macfam	posted 02-16-2011 10:45 PM ET (US) I think it's the "Hey, look at me" phenomenon. More go, more show. It is also very simple and more profitable for the manufacturer of the hull to build it strong, and bolt them on. Replacement down the road is easier and more profitable too. Why do outboard maufacturers slap their name so obstrusively, in big letters, on the outboards? You could put "Verado" in much smaller letters on the side, and EVERYBODY still knows it's a Verado. Same with E-TEC, Suzuki, Honda, Yamaha etc. I think the moters would look so much nicer with more subdued nameplates. It reminds me of the Boston Whalers with the word "Whaler" in HUGE red letters on the side. Yes, we know it's a Boston Whaler. Can you imagine cars with the whole side taken up with "Mercedes", "Acura", "Infiniti" of "Audi" splashed in red? I must be getting old.
Peter	posted 02-17-2011 05:57 AM ET (US) The advantage of big, 250-HP and up outboards for a boat maker like Intrepid is it provides a variety of bolt-on power options. No need to design the interior around different engines or have them take up interior room. The boat that these enormous twins are on would probably needs quads to run right and so the twins simplify rigging. One might even say that they are less pretentious and better looking than having three, four, or even five outboards bolted to the transom. Also, with outboards, there is at least one less hole below the waterline in the boat--entire drive train is hanging on back, instead of poking thru bottom or transom. Lowers risk of sinking.
cohasett73	posted 02-17-2011 08:35 AM ET (US) Do any of you guys subscribe to Sport Fishing Magazine? The answer to Peter' question lies offshore fishing tournaments. Tom from Rubicon,WI
andygere	posted 02-20-2011 12:44 AM ET (US) The most attractive aspect of outboard motors is the ability to keep the powerhead and drive unit completely out of the water when the boat is not operating.
Tom W Clark	posted 02-20-2011 11:03 AM ET (US) Peter (Russell), Your curiosity is not unusual. We have heard these questions before. For answers we need only look to the past. In the 1970s outboards were very popular and common on recreational small craft. Back then, if your family owned a 20 or 25 foot power boat, it was considered big boat. If you had a power boat larger than that, it was most likely a "Cabin Cruiser" and had inboard power or sterndrive power. Then, in 1975, OMC revolutionized the outboard industry when they introduced the first V-6 outboard motor and it produced 200 HP. I remember reading an introductory announcement (with a photo) in yachting Magazine and being incredulous an outboard motor could be made to put out 200 HP. Many folks asked: "Why?" if you needed that much power, there were tried and true sterndrives available from many manufactures with power outputs up to 250 HP. But the V-6 outboard caught on very, very fast, but you will note it did not spell the end to the sterndrive which lives on today and is still popular for many applications. The whole sterndrive vs. outboard argument is a tired old one, just as the two stroke vs, four stroke debate is. Predictions of one technology winning out over another have not come true; both live on with places in the marketplace and with continued demand. The new Seven Marine 557 may be just another option for boat builders to use and I can see it offering the benefits of both outboards and sterndrives. Innovation from one manufacturer will typically spur innovation from another as competition in the marketplace helps bring better products to the consumer. I am excited to see how the 557 does. Of course, it has to actually run before it can catch on ;-)
Binkster	posted 02-20-2011 01:00 PM ET (US) Tom, you`re off by one year(but good for you if you relied on memory,LOL) on the release of the OMC V6. Here is a link to a site that shows sales brochures to every Johnson/Evinrude outboard from way, way, way(forgot the date) back to the present. Should be of interest to every OMC enthusiast. Scroll down for more recent decades. Put this on your favorites; http://www.etecownersgroup.com/post?id=3442997
Tom W Clark	posted 02-20-2011 01:03 PM ET (US) Nope, the Johnson/Evinrude 200 as introduced in the summer of 1975 for the 1976 model year.
contender	posted 02-20-2011 01:38 PM ET (US) What happen with the wankel outboard?
Binkster	posted 02-20-2011 09:10 PM ET (US) Tom, OK, I can be just as nitpicky :-). Regardless of when it was introduced, it was a `76 model. It was never in the `75 catalog.
Binkster	posted 02-20-2011 09:50 PM ET (US) Plain and simple. Your an outboard fanatic if you have a bunch of old or restored outboards sitting on sawhorses in your garage, and you have an old tin boat that you use to run these motors one by one. Your other boat is a modern one with a modern motor that you use for boating and fishing. Also your an upstanding member of AOMCI.
pcrussell50	posted 02-20-2011 11:56 PM ET (US) Hey, I got started in boating not even three years ago... with a 1959 Super Seahorse 35hp, RDS-21B,"big twin". I knew nothing specifically about outboards, and gave that motor no quarter. As far as I can tell, it spent it's whole life in salt water, and as of a couple of months ago, it still is, at the hands of a young, die-hard fisherman. He even goes out in the ocean at 9pm and stays out all night hoop-netting lobster, and comes back at dawn. It had 125psi on both cylinders and all I ever did to it was to rewire the boat so that ignition, choke, and cranking, were all on separate, MIL-spec, waterproof toggle switches. That that 50 year old motor was still out there duking it out with the young'uns, really taught me a lesson in "they don't build them like they used to". Once, I even had the pleasure of towing a fellow boater in distress back in, who had a muuuch newer motor. -Peter
Binkster	posted 02-22-2011 12:54 PM ET (US) Those early OMC big twins and the early OMC V4`s were some of the best outboards ever built, however they are very thirsty. Of course back in the day fuel economy was not important. Peter, I noticed that you also have a 135 hp OMC. Is it a `73-75 V-4. I`ve been looking for one. Also a great motor with gobs of power.
Tohsgib	posted 02-22-2011 01:06 PM ET (US) Ha...got you on that one Binks...the 135 was made through the 1976 model year. So, like Tom, the 140hp debuted in 1976 as a 1977 model year engine and included a free SST prop, unlike the other V4's, to entice people away from the 150 V6 I guess.
pcrussell50	posted 02-22-2011 02:17 PM ET (US) Binks, I now have 3 v4 crossflows. All bubblebacks: -1975, 135hp with CMC tilt/setback -1977, 140hp (Wiseco pistons that fix the "too high" top ring problem), with a mid-80's trim/tilt, and full manual shifting. -1993, 115hp with VRO The 1959 "big twin" is what turned me on to classic carbureted outboards. Then I just stumbled into v4 crossflows when I got the '75 135hp that came on a handlaid, gutted, clone of a Sidewinder LowPro. The '77 140 is on a '77 Hydrosteam Viper, for those interested in vintage fast boats. -Peter
Binkster	posted 02-22-2011 02:37 PM ET (US) Nick, The reason I mentioned the `73-`75 135 crossflow V-4 was according to the racers who race trihulls in mid-Texas, those years are the better ones. But then again I didn`t know when they stopped building them. Peter, you have the engines, I`ll put together a trihull race boat, and we`ll meet in the middle of the country and go racin. Trihull racing looks like alot of fun. They run about 60mph on 16` trihulls. Here is a bunch of videos.
pcrussell50	posted 02-22-2011 07:40 PM ET (US) Back on topic, I clipped this from the GM outboard thread: quote: If these outboards ever make it to production, I bet the sell less than 1000 per year and most of those will be sold in the look-at-me Southern Florida market. So thus my question... what is so "look at me" about outboards? Are they more glamorous than inboards? Is being being seen with outboards more prestigious at the country club water cooler than if you had marine diesels? That is the part I don't get. -Peter
Binkster	posted 02-22-2011 09:08 PM ET (US) Glad you asked that question, Peter. I think the reasoning behind the "hey look at me" attitude behind a buyer of a couple of these huge GM outboards is simply this. "I know it makes more sense to have a pair of powerful diesel inboards in my boat but I have so much money that I can hang a pair of these ridiculous outboards on the stern that cost more than diesels and not worry that its a stupid decision." Like buying a Beemer when they shoulda bought a Toyota, LOL.
pcrussell50	posted 02-22-2011 09:38 PM ET (US) LOL, Binks. My question was more abstract though. Not specifically about -those- outboards, but any outboards... Sooo... Are outboards more prestigious than inboards? I'm fascinated by those tri-hull racers. Do they run on pads? Where can I find a picture of the bottom of one? Offline of course. -Peter
Tom W Clark	posted 02-22-2011 09:44 PM ET (US) Prestigious? What's more prestigious, a Porsche or a BMW?
pcrussell50	posted 02-22-2011 11:11 PM ET (US) Porseche or BMW? That's a question without a starkly obvious answer. Which is more prestigious, a Whaler or a Bayliner? That one has a more obvious answer. I'm new to boating. When I see people desperate to put a square peg in a round hole, and put outboards on boats that traditionally don't have them, it leaves me compelled to ask. -Peter
Hilinercc	posted 02-23-2011 12:35 PM ET (US) Wouldn't you all agree, that this new 557 motor is just the another evolutionary step in marine propulsion? As Tom pointed out, the 200 OMC and 175 Black Max of 1976 generated alot of articles at the time, like the one mentioned in Yachting, asking why would we need a 200 hp outboard?. (just a little trivia, OMC's initial production run of the 200 was sold out by 12/75 (!) Those engines blazed the trail for bigger 25 to 30 ft designs that are common today. Remember the days when a "long shaft" motor was 20"? Now that builders like Intrepid, Grady and Whaler are all moving north of 35 ft., it was just a matter of time before a bigger motor came along. (and big Diesel outboards are at least on the drawing board). The big V6 motors can only do so much without strength in numbers. This reminds me of the smae sort of debate regarding the Zeus and IPS pod drives, making the conventional shaft and prop obsolete, it won't really happen. As far as prestige, the Caterpillar engine boat will always have more prestige than the Yamaha powered boat, thats if you know there's a cat under the hood.
dgoodhue	posted 02-23-2011 01:56 PM ET (US) quote: what is so "look at me" about outboards? I think the 'look at me' is when you have 4 Lage Outboards hanging off the transom or this case 2 or 3 massively sized Outboard, that I imagine dwarf the current crop of large outabords.
towboater	posted 02-23-2011 02:33 PM ET (US) Ive owned inboard, I/O and outboards. It all boils down to desired deck space and purpose. 30 ft Skagit with twin 318 inboards was a lot of fun, miss that boat. 22 ft Taylor with built Harmon 460 pump was the best ski/play boat ever...75 mph all day. 26 ft Stamas with twin 250 Chev's and Alpha 1 legs never failed me. Little 18 ft Whaler with console and outboard is awesome multipurpose boat to be able to reach any part of the gunwales. So, to each his own, more power to ya. Enjoy.