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Author Topic:   USCG persons capacity plate and kids

russellbailey posted 03-13-2011 09:09 AM ET (US)
I know this topic has been discussed generally but I could not find a clear answer to this question, nor in about the 20 minutes I spent in the USCG regulations could I find it either.
My 1984 Outrage 25 has a persons capacity of 12.
My two siblings and I with kids collectively have 13 people. The 7 kids have weights as follows (ages 3-16)
35, 45, 45, 65, 80, 120, 140 = 530, or well below 4 adults. The six adults are normal size (average ~ 150).
We are all getting together at a lake near Abingdon VA this summer, and I expect we'll all go for a boat ride or two.
If I load the boat with all 13 of us, is that against a USCG regulation? Can you point me to which one? (I realize I need to consider state laws also but they seem to often derive from the USCG).
I presume the USCG or state agency would not likely be overly concerned with the situation above - everyone on board always wears their lifejackets, which seems atypical based on about every other boat I see - I think that has helped avoid ever being stopped except once by USCG in Beaufort NC when they were stopping every boater passing by.

Tohsgib posted 03-13-2011 10:16 AM ET (US)
13 people in a 25' boat in my neighborhood is an immediate pullover by any authority, lifejackets or not. However I do not think it would be much of a problem to the cop(s) if you have all your stuff legal.
towboater posted 03-13-2011 11:15 AM ET (US)
A lake in August?
See if you can find valid weight capacity documents.
Copy and carry that document with the boat. Make sure all the kids are wearing life jackets that are USCG certified for their size and pull back on the throttles.
I cant speak for Va, on NW lakes, you would be fine.
Buckda posted 03-13-2011 11:36 AM ET (US)
Russell -
As far as I can tell, an "overloaded" boat is up to the determination of the officer. As far as the USCG goes, they will order you to terminate your voyage if they believe you're overloaded.
I don't know what local authorities will do - but it likely depends on what you're doing when they spot your boat. If you get a ticket, just take it and fight it later.
The capacity plate, I believe states 12 persons OR XXXX lbs persons, motor and gear. I believe it means "whichever is less" - so either 12 lightweights, or even fewer if you have a lot of gear aboard.
So - I think technically you'll be exceeding the capacity, but if the kids have PFDs on and aren't running around the boat, you might slip by under the radar - it will depend on the officer on patrol.
Buckda posted 03-13-2011 11:42 AM ET (US)
For what it's worth, I just did the count and I had 11 folks aboard my 25 this past summer for a cruise around the islands in the Upper Peninsula. There is very little USCG or local law enforcement presence on the water up there, so we managed without a hitch. We had only two young kids under 50 lbs aboard.
The boat handles that load/weight fine, although it makes for a crowd!
Tohsgib posted 03-13-2011 11:52 AM ET (US)
Honestly I would never even consider having 10+ people on a 25' boat no matter what the plate says unless going slow to a fireworks diplay or ?? The most I ever had on a boat was about 5 or 6. My bud has a 42' Post and 13 people would be majorly crowded on that.
Buckda posted 03-13-2011 11:55 AM ET (US)
Nick -
Crowded boat during bright sunny daylight and never far from shore in quiet, protected waters, or crowded boat at night with lots of other boats around and limited visibility with a high probability that others have been drinking aboard their boats?
Good call.
Tohsgib posted 03-13-2011 06:15 PM ET (US)
What difference does that make? Would you prefer to split them up "just in case"? Since you are so worried about drunk drivers check out these statistics for 2009: 736 deaths were reported. Machinery failure was the cause of only nine. 727 were from stupidity. They were officially listed as operator inattention, operator inexperience, excessive speed, improper lookout, failure to know the rules of the road, failure to know the risk of weather, waters and other conditions, and alcohol abuse which was only 120 of 736 people. These deaths were from both perps and victims. I think I/we/you should be more worried about some inexperienced person with an overloaded boat and the stats prove this. This year I bet texting will be a major cause.
I am was not bashing having 13 people in a boat...I have just NEVER thought of doing it. If I had a 25 Outrage and 12 of my friends/family said lets go for a ride I would ask what other boat(s) are we taking. Putting that many people on a boat with seating for 4-7 people(if you have a stern seat) just seems ridiculous to me. I guess people do it, I would just never think of it. My 13' says 6 people...aint gonna happen no matter how short a run or how secluded the area is or even if I was in a dry county. Question...why would you want 13 people in about 150 square feet of space? Would you put 13 people in your spare bedroom and hang out for the day?
russellbailey posted 03-14-2011 07:11 AM ET (US)
Nick, I might agree on space and comfort with all adults. However, the Outrage 25 does have a lot of open space. We'll often have 2 adults and 2-3 kids sitting on the front steps, another 2-3 kids on the 162 qt cooler in front of the console, and a couple of adults at the RPS or standing by the console (the front steps are the most favored spot unless it is rough). When I add a rear seat it will add even more space. With the open bow (unlike Dave's cuddy) there is a ton of space. For comparison, in our Striper 15 we've spent many days out with 4-5 adults and 2 kids, which is quite tight (1980 model rated for 7).
I'm still trying to find a regulation that links the capacity plate person listing with overloading. The only regulations I've found that address overloading do not mention a capacity plate at all but instead refer to the stability of the boat with the load.
I know we have some state and/or federal marine law enforcement staff participating on the site. I'm hoping someone can point me to where in the federal regulations this is addressed.
[I've already determined that in the Virginia state regulations there is nothing additional beyond the federal requirements]
6992WHALER posted 03-14-2011 07:54 PM ET (US)
From Chapman 65th edition pg 375.
A capacity plate...... shows the maximum allowable number and weight of persons and the maximum weight for persons and gear. Exceeding these numbers or weights is not a violation of federal law but may be considered in case of accidents.

Our local law enforcement interprets the plate to mean, If the plate says 7 people the most you can have on the boat is seven. If the 7 people weigh more than the allowed capacity pounds than you can not have the maximum number of people on the boat(7 in this example). At no time is it OK to have 8 people on board no matter how much they do not weigh.
So basically you can never exceed either of the numbers.
Also capacity plates are based on good to moderate weather conditions. So in bad conditions the plate could be used against you.
ceshaw posted 03-14-2011 08:11 PM ET (US)
I've always interpreted a capacity plate that reads "12 people" as meaning just that........ "12 people".
I read a funny sign at a Twisted Root hamburger joint here in north Texas that said "capacity 106 persons (or 60 fat chicks)". Hahahaha.
swist posted 03-14-2011 08:27 PM ET (US)
I agree with Tohsgib, it makes no sense at all. You are personally responsible for all those people. You won't even be able to simultaneously drive the boat and keep count to see if they're all there.
I would argue if the people are children, then the "persons" capacity should be EVEN LOWER than what the plate states.
6992WHALER posted 03-15-2011 12:50 PM ET (US)
Tohsgib
I think alcohol is clearly a major contributor to boating accidents and deaths.
The USCG Recreational Boating Statistics 2009
"Alcohol use is the leading contributing factor in fatal boating accidents"
It is the fifth leading primary contributing factor in all boating accidents
http://www.uscgboating.org/assets/1/workflow_staging/Publications/394.PDF
The report is full of statistics and tables and is interesting to read. I find the table operator information interesting. Age 1-25 have less accidents than age 36-55.Should we assume that age group 36-55 is less responsible? Or could there be other factors?
Tom W Clark posted 03-15-2011 01:16 PM ET (US)
Russell,
Just as with exceeding the Maximum Horsepower capacity of a boat, it is not against any Federal law to exceed the Persons Capacity of the boat.
There may be some state laws that explicitly make it illegal to exceed the limits on the capacity plate. I do not know the law in Virginia.
Total Persons Capacity is 12. 13 persons exceeds that no matter the weight of the persons.
There is also a Total Weight, Persons, Motor and Gear that cannot be exceeded. As Dave points out, whichever is reached first is the limit. It is often easy to exceed the total weight limit before the Persons Limit has been reached.
I do not think any law enforcement officer is going to raise an eyebrow at having a boat full of adults and kids, even if there are 13 of you. They can't read the capacity plate as you boat by.
I have had 12 people on my Revenge 25 many times. I have probably exceeded the total weight capacity a few times. I would not worry about it.
Buckda posted 03-15-2011 02:28 PM ET (US)
Nick -
I simply found it interesting that you would never load your boat to that capacity EXCEPT on condition that you were going to an event that required you to navigate in limited visibility with a lot of other boaters around who may or may not be in various states of sobriety.
I found that single condition / circumstance under which you would consider loading your boat to that capacity to be somewhat at odds with the (presumed) safety rationale of your first position (that you would not load your boat to that capacity).
deepwater posted 03-15-2011 06:00 PM ET (US)
I always though the max number of people wasn't connected to the max weight,,I thought what ever you reached first was the cutoff point
NYGuy posted 03-15-2011 06:57 PM ET (US)
I agree with deepwater.

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Author	Topic: USCG persons capacity plate and kids
russellbailey	posted 03-13-2011 09:09 AM ET (US) I know this topic has been discussed generally but I could not find a clear answer to this question, nor in about the 20 minutes I spent in the USCG regulations could I find it either. My 1984 Outrage 25 has a persons capacity of 12. My two siblings and I with kids collectively have 13 people. The 7 kids have weights as follows (ages 3-16) 35, 45, 45, 65, 80, 120, 140 = 530, or well below 4 adults. The six adults are normal size (average ~ 150). We are all getting together at a lake near Abingdon VA this summer, and I expect we'll all go for a boat ride or two. If I load the boat with all 13 of us, is that against a USCG regulation? Can you point me to which one? (I realize I need to consider state laws also but they seem to often derive from the USCG). I presume the USCG or state agency would not likely be overly concerned with the situation above - everyone on board always wears their lifejackets, which seems atypical based on about every other boat I see - I think that has helped avoid ever being stopped except once by USCG in Beaufort NC when they were stopping every boater passing by.
Tohsgib	posted 03-13-2011 10:16 AM ET (US) 13 people in a 25' boat in my neighborhood is an immediate pullover by any authority, lifejackets or not. However I do not think it would be much of a problem to the cop(s) if you have all your stuff legal.
towboater	posted 03-13-2011 11:15 AM ET (US) A lake in August? See if you can find valid weight capacity documents. Copy and carry that document with the boat. Make sure all the kids are wearing life jackets that are USCG certified for their size and pull back on the throttles. I cant speak for Va, on NW lakes, you would be fine.
Buckda	posted 03-13-2011 11:36 AM ET (US) Russell - As far as I can tell, an "overloaded" boat is up to the determination of the officer. As far as the USCG goes, they will order you to terminate your voyage if they believe you're overloaded. I don't know what local authorities will do - but it likely depends on what you're doing when they spot your boat. If you get a ticket, just take it and fight it later. The capacity plate, I believe states 12 persons OR XXXX lbs persons, motor and gear. I believe it means "whichever is less" - so either 12 lightweights, or even fewer if you have a lot of gear aboard. So - I think technically you'll be exceeding the capacity, but if the kids have PFDs on and aren't running around the boat, you might slip by under the radar - it will depend on the officer on patrol.
Buckda	posted 03-13-2011 11:42 AM ET (US) For what it's worth, I just did the count and I had 11 folks aboard my 25 this past summer for a cruise around the islands in the Upper Peninsula. There is very little USCG or local law enforcement presence on the water up there, so we managed without a hitch. We had only two young kids under 50 lbs aboard. The boat handles that load/weight fine, although it makes for a crowd!
Tohsgib	posted 03-13-2011 11:52 AM ET (US) Honestly I would never even consider having 10+ people on a 25' boat no matter what the plate says unless going slow to a fireworks diplay or ?? The most I ever had on a boat was about 5 or 6. My bud has a 42' Post and 13 people would be majorly crowded on that.
Buckda	posted 03-13-2011 11:55 AM ET (US) Nick - Crowded boat during bright sunny daylight and never far from shore in quiet, protected waters, or crowded boat at night with lots of other boats around and limited visibility with a high probability that others have been drinking aboard their boats? Good call.
Tohsgib	posted 03-13-2011 06:15 PM ET (US) What difference does that make? Would you prefer to split them up "just in case"? Since you are so worried about drunk drivers check out these statistics for 2009: 736 deaths were reported. Machinery failure was the cause of only nine. 727 were from stupidity. They were officially listed as operator inattention, operator inexperience, excessive speed, improper lookout, failure to know the rules of the road, failure to know the risk of weather, waters and other conditions, and alcohol abuse which was only 120 of 736 people. These deaths were from both perps and victims. I think I/we/you should be more worried about some inexperienced person with an overloaded boat and the stats prove this. This year I bet texting will be a major cause. I am was not bashing having 13 people in a boat...I have just NEVER thought of doing it. If I had a 25 Outrage and 12 of my friends/family said lets go for a ride I would ask what other boat(s) are we taking. Putting that many people on a boat with seating for 4-7 people(if you have a stern seat) just seems ridiculous to me. I guess people do it, I would just never think of it. My 13' says 6 people...aint gonna happen no matter how short a run or how secluded the area is or even if I was in a dry county. Question...why would you want 13 people in about 150 square feet of space? Would you put 13 people in your spare bedroom and hang out for the day?
russellbailey	posted 03-14-2011 07:11 AM ET (US) Nick, I might agree on space and comfort with all adults. However, the Outrage 25 does have a lot of open space. We'll often have 2 adults and 2-3 kids sitting on the front steps, another 2-3 kids on the 162 qt cooler in front of the console, and a couple of adults at the RPS or standing by the console (the front steps are the most favored spot unless it is rough). When I add a rear seat it will add even more space. With the open bow (unlike Dave's cuddy) there is a ton of space. For comparison, in our Striper 15 we've spent many days out with 4-5 adults and 2 kids, which is quite tight (1980 model rated for 7). I'm still trying to find a regulation that links the capacity plate person listing with overloading. The only regulations I've found that address overloading do not mention a capacity plate at all but instead refer to the stability of the boat with the load. I know we have some state and/or federal marine law enforcement staff participating on the site. I'm hoping someone can point me to where in the federal regulations this is addressed. [I've already determined that in the Virginia state regulations there is nothing additional beyond the federal requirements]
6992WHALER	posted 03-14-2011 07:54 PM ET (US) From Chapman 65th edition pg 375. A capacity plate...... shows the maximum allowable number and weight of persons and the maximum weight for persons and gear. Exceeding these numbers or weights is not a violation of federal law but may be considered in case of accidents. Our local law enforcement interprets the plate to mean, If the plate says 7 people the most you can have on the boat is seven. If the 7 people weigh more than the allowed capacity pounds than you can not have the maximum number of people on the boat(7 in this example). At no time is it OK to have 8 people on board no matter how much they do not weigh. So basically you can never exceed either of the numbers. Also capacity plates are based on good to moderate weather conditions. So in bad conditions the plate could be used against you.
ceshaw	posted 03-14-2011 08:11 PM ET (US) I've always interpreted a capacity plate that reads "12 people" as meaning just that........ "12 people". I read a funny sign at a Twisted Root hamburger joint here in north Texas that said "capacity 106 persons (or 60 fat chicks)". Hahahaha.
swist	posted 03-14-2011 08:27 PM ET (US) I agree with Tohsgib, it makes no sense at all. You are personally responsible for all those people. You won't even be able to simultaneously drive the boat and keep count to see if they're all there. I would argue if the people are children, then the "persons" capacity should be EVEN LOWER than what the plate states.
6992WHALER	posted 03-15-2011 12:50 PM ET (US) Tohsgib I think alcohol is clearly a major contributor to boating accidents and deaths. The USCG Recreational Boating Statistics 2009 "Alcohol use is the leading contributing factor in fatal boating accidents" It is the fifth leading primary contributing factor in all boating accidents http://www.uscgboating.org/assets/1/workflow_staging/Publications/394.PDF The report is full of statistics and tables and is interesting to read. I find the table operator information interesting. Age 1-25 have less accidents than age 36-55.Should we assume that age group 36-55 is less responsible? Or could there be other factors?
Tom W Clark	posted 03-15-2011 01:16 PM ET (US) Russell, Just as with exceeding the Maximum Horsepower capacity of a boat, it is not against any Federal law to exceed the Persons Capacity of the boat. There may be some state laws that explicitly make it illegal to exceed the limits on the capacity plate. I do not know the law in Virginia. Total Persons Capacity is 12. 13 persons exceeds that no matter the weight of the persons. There is also a Total Weight, Persons, Motor and Gear that cannot be exceeded. As Dave points out, whichever is reached first is the limit. It is often easy to exceed the total weight limit before the Persons Limit has been reached. I do not think any law enforcement officer is going to raise an eyebrow at having a boat full of adults and kids, even if there are 13 of you. They can't read the capacity plate as you boat by. I have had 12 people on my Revenge 25 many times. I have probably exceeded the total weight capacity a few times. I would not worry about it.
Buckda	posted 03-15-2011 02:28 PM ET (US) Nick - I simply found it interesting that you would never load your boat to that capacity EXCEPT on condition that you were going to an event that required you to navigate in limited visibility with a lot of other boaters around who may or may not be in various states of sobriety. I found that single condition / circumstance under which you would consider loading your boat to that capacity to be somewhat at odds with the (presumed) safety rationale of your first position (that you would not load your boat to that capacity).
deepwater	posted 03-15-2011 06:00 PM ET (US) I always though the max number of people wasn't connected to the max weight,,I thought what ever you reached first was the cutoff point
NYGuy	posted 03-15-2011 06:57 PM ET (US) I agree with deepwater.