posted 04-12-2011 11:37 PM ET (US)            

Clear the breakwater, push the throttle(s) down, feel the wind in your face and smile. I can not think of a better way to forget about all of your worries (high fuel costs included) other than the open water.

I all comes down to priorities I guess. Those who fool themselves into thinking the boating can be a cheap endeavor are soon to be bitterly disappointed and miss the point of boating.

posted 04-13-2011 01:12 AM ET (US)            

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v665/warrent/DSC_6122-1.jpg

posted 04-13-2011 10:10 AM ET (US)            

From that failed policy, we have LESS jobs and sky high gas prices.

posted 04-13-2011 10:23 AM ET (US)         

Oh wait, domestic production has been increasing for the first time since the early 80s. Not under Reagan, Clinton, or Bush, but our current president! Yet somehow he doesn't get credit for that either.

posted 04-13-2011 12:33 PM ET (US)            

I'd have to run 100 hours wide open to spend that much in fuel in a season, closer to 200 hours at cruise.

posted 04-13-2011 02:24 PM ET (US)            

June 19, 2008 we were selling 87 octane for 4.45

Six month later 12/17/08 we were selling for 1.75

I think Bush said we were going to drill more. I do not know if that actually happened, but did just the possibility of drilling more make the speculators nervous?

posted 04-13-2011 02:37 PM ET (US)            

quote:

---

Drilling here is not the solution, alternatives are.

---

Absolutely agree 100%.

Eh, what alternatives are there that don't cost more than you get out of them? Gates and Buffet combined will be chump change compared to the riches going the cat who comes up with an "alternative" that doesn't cost more than you get out of it. I wouldn't mind too bad if that were me.

posted 04-13-2011 02:54 PM ET (US)            

quote:

---

I think Bush said we were going to drill more. I do not know if that actually happened, but did just the possibility of drilling more make the speculators nervous?

---

It did not happen, but that is a GREAT example of the speculative nature of gas prices. All Bush had to do was _threaten_ to drill in ANWR, and the speculators freaked out and started dumping their shares.

-Peter

posted 04-13-2011 03:42 PM ET (US)         

We are so addicted to energy that it is all subsidized- corn, petroleum...

posted 04-13-2011 06:01 PM ET (US)            

"HOUSTON (Dow Jones)--Exxon Mobil Corp. (XOM) said Monday its fourth-quarter earnings [through Jan 2010] surged 53% on higher oil prices and the return to profitability of its refining arm, signs that the Texas oil giant is reaping the benefits of a healing world economy.

The energy sector's profits seem to be rapidly recovering from the deep gash left by the recession, and seem poised for a return to the boom days that preceded the financial collapse in 2008. On Monday, Brent crude futures hit the $100-per-barrel mark for the first time in more than two years. Brent is the benchmark crude for much of Europe and Asia.

Exxon's quarterly results follow last week's reports of soaring profits by fellow oil giants Chevron Corp. (CVX) and ConocoPhillips (COP). Oilfield service companies like Schlumberger Ltd. (SLB) and Baker Hughes Inc. (BHI) also posted significant earnings gains, a sign that energy producers have a rosy view of the future and are performing more work."

Heh, heh...whine away, you apologists for multi-national corporate capitalism, unless, of course, you have a strong position in oil equities.

They've got us by the shorts (no pun intended), and until there is a viable form of alternative energy, hold on to your wallets...or sell your boats and autos and get used to heating your homes with wood. Think it's gonna get any better? NOT.

Tony

posted 04-13-2011 06:04 PM ET (US)            

I am reminded of this even more, when I travel abroad to prosperous democracies such as France and Israel, (not singling those out, just keeping it short and sweet), when I cruise the marinas there and observe the socioeconomic circumstances required to own/operate even modest skiffs. I dock-walk the cute marinas of the French Riviera several times a year, and each time, I thank GOD I am not stuck living there until I become too old to partake of recreational pursuits that involve motors... because even though I am in a profession that continually makes the list for highest paying professions, I am not sure I could afford to be a boater in France. And each move we make in this country to go in that direction sickens me a little more. The funny thing is, most of the push towards a more European economic structure in this country, comes from folks who operate under the guise of being against the rich, and for the little guy. What disingenuous, two-faced sheisters.

We've been through the whys and wherefores of oil prices and alternate fuels again and again. The only thing we have observed is that the price of oil is speculative in nature, and speculators scare easily. When either the credible threat of drilling arises, or new discoveries that threaten to increase supply show up, the speculators cut and run, and prices plummet.

posted 04-13-2011 06:12 PM ET (US)            

-Peter

posted 04-13-2011 06:48 PM ET (US)            

Different strokes, etc. I think you would do quite well boating in Europe. I know that many European members of this forum enthusiastically run Boston Whaler motorboats which make me drool with envy.

Tony

posted 04-13-2011 06:52 PM ET (US)            

To save fuel, I use my kicker in no wake zones. When leaving the dock, I start up the main and let it warm up a bit. Then I shut the main off and run out on the kicker. I want the main all ready to go in case something goes wrong and I need the power of the main quickly. This technique also lets me know that the kicker is functioning properly in case something happens to the main motor and I need the kicker.

Personally, I think today's price is this years high. Demand is down and the Mideast seems to be calming down. Hopefully prices will come down by summer.

posted 04-13-2011 08:03 PM ET (US)         

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/09/bogus-brazilian-oil-claims/
http://blogs.forbes.com/kenrapoza/2011/03/17/ dispelling-the-petrobras-loan-myth-as-obama-heads-to-rio/

posted 04-13-2011 08:29 PM ET (US)            

Being a boater in the Riviera is like owning a boat in New York (proper) or Boston (proper). Everyone wants to have their boat, or at least stop in for a visit. The price of gas, is comparable though. On the water prices have a similar mark-up to the US when compared to what prices are on the streets. (The major difference, petro is just more expensive in general across the west European continent.) But owning a boat in Normandy or elsewhere isn't cost prohibitive.

posted 04-14-2011 02:23 AM ET (US)            

I may be totally wrong but I don't think we have as much oil around the USA as we are leading people to believe.

If we really had a ton of untapped oil, why are we buying oil from Canada, Mexico and the Middle East? Why are we diluting our gasoline with ethanol?

If you had a farm that could produced corn, would you buy corn from other countries? No

I hope I'm wrong about our oil situation. If I'm right, gasoline prices are going to go a lot higher.

Warren

posted 04-14-2011 08:56 AM ET (US)            

Now, I have owned a 13 foot Whaler, a 17 foot Whaler, and now a 22 Whaler, so my experience is with boats that are fairly economical to run.

But I love boating and being on the water, and there is cost involved with everything we decide to do.

I can afford to own and operate a 22 foot Whaler. I might not be able to afford to own and operate a 32 foot Whaler, but the price of gas is only one small component of that analysis.

To answer the question - I think gas prices are too high.

posted 04-14-2011 12:01 PM ET (US)            

quote:

---

If we really had a ton of untapped oil, why are we buying oil from Canada, Mexico and the Middle East? Why are we diluting our gasoline with ethanol?

---

Er... because our largest known reserves of oil that is still easy to access have been placed off limits?

In a twisted sense, you're right, Warren. If we are prevented by law from obtaining the oil we know we have, it is effectively as if we don't have any oil, and we must obviously seek it elsewhere.

As to your second question, the one about ethanol, since such action cannot in any way be justified by science or economics, the only remaining plausibility is crooked politics... which also happens to be the case in your first question.

posted 04-14-2011 01:12 PM ET (US)            

Estimated reserves are based on educated guesses, using data from Geological surveys, studies and other methods. There are many countries that have very low "proven" reserves but may be sitting on top of a lot more oil than previously thought.

If you believe the government of Venezuela (I take everything they claim with a big lump of salt), their proven reserves just recently jumped to 297 billion barrels (surpassing the potentially already inflated figure of 267 billion barrels claimed by the Saudis).

There is more oil to be found and extracted. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't be working intently on finding other energy solutions, and preparing our economies for a more diverse list of sources of energy.

I believe that the current high cost of gasoline is due largely to two big factors: 1) speculative trading of oil by people who have no intention of using the oil they purchase, and 2)near-sighted policies and legislation that has limited expansion of refinery capacity in this country. Of course, there are many other factors.

The positive by-product of this pain is that I'm sure it has entrepreneurs and inventors up at night working on viable alternatives. That much energy directed at alternatives - even if it doesn't provide a direct solution - will generate new products, ideas and even industries (perhaps related to energy production, perhaps not). Afterall, we wouldn't have velcro without the Space program.

Good luck and godspeed to our inventors and entrepreneurs - may you find a solution and make your billion dollars very soon, so our antique boat hobby can continue.

posted 04-14-2011 01:25 PM ET (US)            

quote:

---

I believe that the current high cost of gasoline is due largely to two big factors: 1) speculative trading of oil by people who have no intention of using the oil they purchase, and 2)near-sighted policies and legislation that has limited expansion of refinery capacity in this country. Of course, there are many other factors.

---

You your first two reasons for the high prices are pretty much it. The "many other reasons are so small as to be insignificant". I have lumped boutique blending, another crminally corrupt, colossal political power grab, in with the second item you listed.

posted 04-14-2011 01:32 PM ET (US)            

It sounds your State is getting into the fueling business and using public funding to convert customers to CNG. Do you have to be a Public Utility or Government agency to sell natural gas in your State? Are they using public funding to build these stations also?

When I Google CNG in Washington State I get the Puget Sound Clean City Coalition which is a member of a national organization. According to their website they are a public/private company. I wonder if I can become a member of the private part and sell CNG at my stations and be able to set my own selling price? I know for a fact that I will only have one source for the natural gas. For the gasoline and Diesel I purchase now for resell, I have the choice of 7 different suppliers.

I can see potential problems if the private sector is locked out or priced out of the CNG market. Jeepers, I can see potential problems with electric cars also if there is only one supplier of electricity so only this supplier builds recharging stations and uses public funding to build them.

Tony thinks the multi-national corporate capitalist have us by the shorts, and I agree with him, but at least there is more than one of them. One of the problems with big oil is the lack of competition since the FTC allowed all the oil company mergers. Less competition, higher prices, where else can you go to get fuel?

There will be no competition if your State is extremely successful in this project. That concerns me.

John

posted 04-14-2011 11:43 PM ET (US)            

"One thing to keep in mind in the "how much oil do we have" debate is the difference between "proven" reserves (of which the US has about 22.3 billion barrels, according to the Department of Energy figures for 2009) and "estimated" reserves, which may be as high as 134 billion barrels for the US."

The United States of America uses 7 billion barrels per year. We could use all our 22.3 billion "proven" barrels in about 3 years. :-O

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_oil_con-energy-oil-consumption

This article below is dated 2000 but interesting reading nonetheless.

http://maps.unomaha.edu/peterson/funda/sidebar/oilconsumption.html

Good luck to us all.

posted 04-16-2011 12:17 PM ET (US)            

My use of my boat is not directly proportional to the cost of fuel. I have limited opportunity to use my boat, so I tend to use the boat when I have the opportunity without regard to the cost of fuel. If the cost of fuel rose above $6-per-gallon I would anticipate that my use of gasoline fuel would tend to be reduced.

I have already invested in new gasoline engines which are more efficient than the ones they replaced, both in my boat and car. As a result my use of gasoline has decreased somewhat. In my car I increased my fuel efficiency about 20-percent, and in my boat I increased fuel efficiency about 50-percent.

posted 04-16-2011 01:24 PM ET (US)            

There are also seasonal spikes associated with the switchover from winter blend to summer blend, a system that is tainted by crooked politics and and "me too'ism".

posted 04-16-2011 01:32 PM ET (US)            

I suspect it's like a weightlifting contest. As weight is added, little by little, contestants begin to drop out. If it were I, Id begin by using my boats less. Then Id probably sell them. Next I might sell my bigger cars and buy smaller ones, (I ALWAYS buy used), and on down the line, making incremental cuts as I can. I suspect most of us would ratchet down our economic activities in a similar fashion.

posted 04-16-2011 01:42 PM ET (US)            

87 Octane $4.20/gal
89 Octane $4.30/gal
93 Octane $4.40/gal

Diesel(Valvtect) $3.90/gal

posted 04-16-2011 03:32 PM ET (US)            

Gasoline $5.35/gallon
Diesel $5.10/gallon

Gashouse Cove Marina, San Francisco, CA

http://citysf.com/fueldock.htm

posted 04-16-2011 07:58 PM ET (US)            

Long before the cost of food and gasoline would force me to cut back thousands of others would have their boats on blocks thus ensuring the ready availability of nice Speckled Trout and Redfish to those who are able to continue to fish.

It would amaze me if conditions got that bad. The people will tolerate a lot before taking action against their government. Having a hungry wife and or child would probably be intolerable to most of us.

Meanwhile I conserve as much energy as possible by living as though fuel will someday be unavailable. The exception to my conservation efforts is my boating. Well, almost, since I use my boat in a way that consumes the minimum of fuel consistent with getting done what I want to do.

Butch

posted 04-16-2011 09:24 PM ET (US)            

Byt a four stroke. My 90HP YamaMerc EFI sips gas.

posted 04-17-2011 07:59 PM ET (US)            

quote:

---

What is sad is diesel is a by product of gas and now cost more than gas...Go figure

---

Diesel costing more than gasoline is another thing that doesn't pass the basic smell test... therefore it is the result of crooked politics.

The sawdust should not cost more than the lumber, in a society of honest governance.

posted 04-17-2011 11:33 PM ET (US)            

Not sure who to blame, because never having had a diesel, I have no dog in this fight, and haven't put in the effort to find someone to blame. But it still chaps me. Just as smoking bans on private property chap me... and I hate cigarette smoke. I just hate overreaching government even more.

posted 04-24-2011 02:20 AM ET (US)            

My slip costs are $0. (either of my whalers fit nicely on the floating lift beind my house). My storage costs are $0, because both whalers live in my backyard on trailers when they aren't on the floating lift at the dock.

As for drilling in GOM driving down the cost of fuel, good luck with that trickle down theory. Additional drilling, whether it is in Russia, Canada, GOM, or on the Arabian penisula simply means there is another barrel of oil available on the open market for the world's economies to bid the price up on. Starting drilling tomorrow doesn't change the price of oil tomorrow. It takes some time to drill through 5,000-10,000 feet of solid rock. America's problem is that we've borrowed ourself into a hole over the past several decades (fault lying squarely in the hands of BOTH political parties), and we can barely make the minimum interest payments on our debt. We might as well be paying our debts with sea shells, rather than dollars. With gold at $1500/oz, the dollar is about the same value as a random sea shell.

posted 04-24-2011 03:13 AM ET (US)            

The federal government owes $14.2 trillion dollars.

The federal goverment is spending more (outlays) than it takes in (receipts).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v665/warrent/BUDGET-2012-BUDjpeg.jpg

Please not that the federal government is expecting "receipts" (Taxes) to double in 6 years. And note that government spending (outlays) increases evey year.

Good luck to all of us, we're going to need it.

posted 04-24-2011 03:21 AM ET (US)            

quote:

---

Additional drilling, whether it is in Russia, Canada, GOM, or on the Arabian penisula simply means there is another barrel of oil available on the open market for the world's economies to bid the price up on.

---

If you are right, you have found the first known exception to the law of supply and demand. Color me skeptical on that one. Sorry.

quote:

---

Starting drilling tomorrow doesn't change the price of oil tomorrow. It takes some time to drill through 5,000-10,000 feet of solid rock.

---

Your quote above leads me to believe that you do not understand the nature how oil is traded. You're applying logic and reason to a something that is traded on the commodity market? LOL. It is nothing like the automobile market, or the market for replacement BW rub-rails or 3M 5200, adhesive sealant. The commodities market has NEVER responded according to laws of logic and reason. The commodities market swings even more rapidly and irrationally than the stock market. The last time gas was too high, it started plummeting in a panic-selloff, MINUTES after Bush threatened to drill in ANWR. Inside of a month, crude went from $150/bbl to $40'ish. Gas went from over $4/gal, to $1.49 in the same time frame. That is way beyond the standard deviation in an ordinarily variable market. It was a panic sell, like a stock market crash, also driven by panic. Similarly, look at what the unrest in Libya has done to the oil market. Libya's oil production is almost too small to measure in comparison to the size of the market at large. The response of the market is waaay out of proportion to reality... as usual. Until oil is no longer traded in that way, it will always be subject to the emotional swings of the commodities exchange.

-Peter

posted 04-24-2011 03:30 AM ET (US)            

I think gasoline prices are the least of our worries.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

We're (federal government) taking in $2.2 trillion and spending $3.5 trillion.

So how long could we, as individuals, get away with taking in $22,000 per year but spending $35,000/year? How long before it all blows up?

Warren

posted 04-24-2011 04:01 AM ET (US)            

Let's says we want to pay off our $14.2 trillion debt over the next 100 years. It would mean that we have to make an annual payment of $142 billion per year at zero interest on the outstand balance.

We (democrates and republicans) had a hard time cutting just $38 billion out of our current budget a couple of weeks ago. And our budget still is running a HUGE deficit....

O.V.E.R.

posted 04-24-2011 04:37 AM ET (US)            

So let's say we pay them 3% interest, $14.2 trillion at 3% interest is $426 billion plus principal payment of $142 billion or $568 billion/year.

$568 billion in interest and principal for 100 years? I suppose the interest payments go down as we pay down the debt. But it doesn't look like it can happen if we have a deficit every year.

Am I the only one that thinks of this stuff?

Warren

posted 04-24-2011 12:48 PM ET (US)            

People buy oil futures on the commodities exchanges, to try to make a quick buck. When enough of them do it, the price runs up, as availability comes down. This is where we are right now. Historically, a credible threat of new supply, (iow, a credible threat of drilling known reserves), has scared off the folks looking for a quick buck. They sell out in a panic, like last time.

BTW, buying crude futures in the commoditites market is not the same thing as investing in oil company stock, which is traded in the stock market.

posted 04-24-2011 01:55 PM ET (US)            

http://www.eia.doe.gov/special/gulf_of_mexico/index.cfm

The United States uses 7 billion barrels of oil per year.

So maybe the amount of oil reserves we have in the GOM is like having 2 kegs of beer at a frat house toga party?

posted 04-24-2011 02:40 PM ET (US)            

CNBC says maybe $6/gallon this summer.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/42683030

I sure hope they are all wrong.

posted 04-24-2011 02:54 PM ET (US)            

quote:

---

The Gulf of Mexico, according to the 2009 EIA (Energy Information Agency) contains about 3.828 billion barrels of oil.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/special/gulf_of_mexico/index.cfm

The United States uses 7 billion barrels of oil per year.

So maybe the amount of oil reserves we have in the GOM is like having 2 kegs of beer at a frat house toga party?

Warren

---

posted 04-24-2011 02:58 PM ET (US)            

quote:

---

The Gulf of Mexico, according to the 2009 EIA (Energy Information Agency) contains about 3.828 billion barrels of oil.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/special/gulf_of_mexico/index.cfm

The United States uses 7 billion barrels of oil per year.

So maybe the amount of oil reserves we have in the GOM is like having 2 kegs of beer at a frat house toga party?

Warren

---

However much oil there is in the GOM, it's enough to lure driller's from all over the world, who no doubt are thrilled to make hay with it, while we sit it out on the sidelines.

They'll probably be laughing their asses off at us when their third world safety practices cause a spill, and WE end up cleaning it up... all while getting NONE of the oil.

posted 04-24-2011 03:42 PM ET (US)            

Everytime the price rises, sales of fuel inefficient tanks (aka cars & trucks) drops by comparison with smaller vehicles. Is this bad?

Everytime the price rises, people turn down their thermostats. Is that bad?

Everytime the price rises, more money pours into alternate fuel research. Is that bad?

I lived in a prosperous country in Western Europe for two years, and always marvelled at what they managed to squeeze out of their energy dollar. And everytime I see the per-capita consumption of fossils fuels in the US compared to elsewhere, I find it embarassing.

posted 04-24-2011 04:39 PM ET (US)            

Yes, it's wrong to spend money on alternate fuel research if it is taxpayer money, and that alternate fuel is a known pipe dream whose energy balance fails undergraduate thermodynamics right from the start. Ethanol from corn comes to mind.

posted 04-24-2011 05:42 PM ET (US)            

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Peak_oil#Possible_effects_and_consequences_of_peak_oil

posted 04-24-2011 06:39 PM ET (US)            

While I do NOT believe in peak oil, I DO believe in "peak public money", (I made that term up).

posted 04-24-2011 07:17 PM ET (US)            

You think Japan might need some extra enery (oil) to rebuild their country?

Anytime there is a catastrophe (earthquake, hurricane, flood, acts of God) it takes energy (oil) to rebuild and clean up. And it seems like there has been more catastrophies lately.

Unlike many, I do not believe we have an endless supply of oil to tap. Expect to pay up at the pump. :-(

Warren

posted 04-24-2011 07:43 PM ET (US)            

quote:

---

I wonder why Canada, Mexico and the Middle East doesn't slow their production of oil so that the United States and other countries use up their own supplies, then sell us their oil at a higher price?

---

I wonder the same thing. And there is only one reason I can come up with why they don't try that at least against the USA.

posted 04-24-2011 08:39 PM ET (US)            

Don't get me started. I've been short the market the past 2 years... I never in my wildest dreams thought the government would manufacture so many dollars out of thin air.

I think we are past the point of no return. I can't see on a simple spreadsheet, how we (USA) is going to get out of this. Our debt is growing exponentially.

I need Toyota to break under $75. :-)

Good luck.

posted 04-24-2011 11:14 PM ET (US)            

Warren, much has changed in estimates of oil reserves since 2009. Oil has been harvested from the Bakken reserve for quite some time but technology (and authorization) has restricted production. New technology promises to obtain a greater portion of the 167 billion gallons of oil that the formation contains - if given the go ahead. ANWR estimates are around 10 billion gallons. Israel has just discovered billions of gallons of oil off their coast. Canadian oil reserves which include the oil sands deposits are close to 200 billion. The recent Brazilian oil discovery estimates are in the 40 billion range. The reserves of Venezuela which is second in the world, have been increasing as well. Even under the Great Lakes there are almost a half billion gallons of oil. Not to mention all the oil that is off limits on the east and west coast. There is enough oil to put pressure on OPEC, just not the will to do something about it.

While there is a great deal of oil in North America, the amount of natural gas dwarfs those numbers. If the politicians put their efforts in a promotion of (clean burning) natural gas engines instead of the loser ethanol our economy would be dramatically improved. Having driven a natural gas vehicle in a work environment I can speak of its viability.

posted 04-24-2011 11:32 PM ET (US)            

quote:

---

OPEC. They have enough of a monopoly to control prices by holding back production since it is not to their benefit to sell oil cheaply even though it costs them on average $15 a gallon to extract. More oil on the market threatens their leverage.

---

Exactly right!

Being in my mid-40's I remember, when we had all kinds of other options for oil, and OPEC never could stay unified and make their attempts a price increases stick. One of them out of desperation, would always stab the others in the back and undersell the "fixed" price. Then the others would follow suit. They were a toothless tiger. Then, as political expediencies started taking more and more of our options off the table, OPEC became stronger and stronger.

posted 04-24-2011 11:50 PM ET (US)            

To follow our national debt, go to this site:
http://www.usdebtclock.org/
The scary part is where they list the US national debt debt per person to be $46,000 and the responsibility of the US total debt per person to be $177,000. Unchecked, our children and grandchildren will be paying 80% in taxes just to pay the interest. Eventually there won't be enough money coming in to cover our debt.

posted 04-25-2011 02:44 AM ET (US)         

What I don't understand is that with all of the meddling and foreign aid that our government pours into the Middle East and all over the world for that matter, that we could get something in return that would benefit the whole country rather than a select few, like cheap oil for instance. Over here in Iraq gas is about 50 cents a gallon, and generally all over the Middle East, its still under a dollar a gallon.

posted 04-25-2011 12:06 PM ET (US)            

quote:

---

Unchecked, our children and grandchildren will be paying 80% in taxes just to pay the interest. Eventually there won't be enough money coming in to cover our debt.

The can is running out of road to be kicked down.

---

If you have ever been or known someone who is a drug addict, it will explain a LOT about reckless spending by politicians. Nothing is more important than the next "hit". NOTHING. To a politician, that next "hit", is his re-election. And if you have nothing of substance to offer, the best thing to offer is free money from other people.

Also, as with the drug analogy, not all users are addicts, just as not all politicians are reckless spending "addicts".

posted 04-25-2011 01:51 PM ET (US)            

Their performance reminds me of some of Einstein's quotes - but namely: "We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them."

posted 04-25-2011 06:43 PM ET (US)            

Watch out for pirates!

posted 04-26-2011 02:58 PM ET (US)            

Let's pray that he has the integrity to do likewise to his pet companies too: GM, Chrysler, and the biggie, General Electric.

If some companies get to their corporate welfare and others don't, it will tell us a lot about the character of guy at the helm of this ship, (pun intended).

posted 04-27-2011 06:15 PM ET (US)            

And Peter - you are right on there too - well almost, as factoring in all of the fed and states - there thousands.

And, as I recall, there is a different tax rate on the different "grades". Less money for our "honorable legislators".

posted 04-29-2011 07:48 PM ET (US)            

In addition to that the technology it is fair at best since the Midwest and North do not really benefit from hybrids or electric because of low temps. these batteries do not like the cold weather never have.

Methane is the wildcard however no one seems to believe it is a solution other than Pickens. He is on to something perhaps.

As for the price of oil and its products. Get used to paying because it will not get cheaper. It will skyrocket over the next decade with more 14 year olds in China than the entire population in this country - and they will eventually be driving - not to mention the demand from India and other parts of Asia.

When it comes to cheap oil/gas the good ole days are way behind us and this is something everyone in this country is going to have to get used to one way or another.

Those who have never boated and that are young enough may never own or enjoy what most of us in the last 50+ years have been fortunate enough to do.

Complaining will not do anything about it. If it does get cheaper much cheaper well lets just say most will have enough to do trying to pay bills and stay employed because of a floundering economy.

These are the realities in my opinion going forward. And as the old saying goes "if you cannot beat them join them" when it comes to the price of oil/gas buy well known companies such as Haliburton,Schlumberger, Baker Hughes,Otis anything to do with oil and oil field services.

posted 04-30-2011 10:39 AM ET (US)            

Alternatives, eventually and by definition, are the ONLY solution. It's simple logic, folks. Increasing demand, primarily from China and India, is swiftly sucking up supply and will raise prices to astronomical heights within a decade. And ultimately oil supplies are finite, so logically one must consider alternative power methods; IMO, the quicker the better. The solution? A government-funded Manhattan-Project-like drive to develop sound alternatives. If not, buy bicycle company stocks for your kids rather than EXXON.

Tony

posted 04-30-2011 11:47 AM ET (US)         

quote:

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we're writing off almost the entire cost of the installation.

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So... corporations stealing from the tax paying middle class is bad but California lawyers stealing from the tax paying middle class is good?

posted 04-30-2011 12:09 PM ET (US)            

As to the development of alternative fuels as being a "fad", frontier...I really don't know how to respond to such a thoughtful, well-reasoned, insightful comment. As I said above, it's worked for my family so far. Let's just wait and see what happens, eh?

posted 04-30-2011 12:23 PM ET (US)            

The catch with most alternative energy is that it is not, at this point in time, cost effective or practical. We have a Prius which serves us well (only cost effective after many years of use) but is impractical for many of our uses, so we also have an SUV. Higher prices help no one, unless you live in China, where they love making things cheaper with fossil fuels.

Alternative energy is not without its issues as well. Batteries are environmental headaches both in their creation and destruction. Noise pollution has actually shut down some wind facilities. Hydro can only be used in a few circumstances (and not without environmental consequences). Wind, hydro and solar have huge up front and costs that may never become cost effective.

If everyone drove electric vehicles there would not be enough electricity (or batteries) to power them. Larger electrical/hybrid vehicles will have a much greater cost to the consumer than conventional ones. We would have to build more oil, nuclear, or coal fired electrical generating plants. Charging stations would have to be built everywhere, at our expense. The government will also raise taxes on our electric bills (as Obama has promised). We would end up paying more. The biggest losers of all are the people least able to afford that transition, the poor.

posted 04-30-2011 12:42 PM ET (US)            

quote:

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You got it exactly right, gnr. Tax the relatively few very very rich 'til they squeal, make damn sure the corporations pay their fair share,

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I can get on board with that... as long as your definition of the "very rich" is not the same as the President's.

As for corporate welfare? Let's do it. Let's use a fair metric to do it: start with the corps that have the highest profit/tax burden ratio, and move from there. It may take a while to get to the oilco's if we are going to do it in a fair way, but it would happen eventually... And hey, it would be the ultimate segregator of fad alt.energy schemes versus the sustainable ones, which would survive on merit.

Just give me some warning so I can unload my GE stock before it tanks.

posted 04-30-2011 12:46 PM ET (US)            

quote:

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Batteries are environmental headaches both in their creation and destruction.

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Wrong. We have solved the problem with the responsible manufacture of batteries the same way we do with oil... we get countries that do not share our sense of environmental responsibility and worker safety to do make our batteries and drill our oil for us. Duh!

posted 04-30-2011 12:52 PM ET (US)            

You think those are serious solutions you will be left to ashes and another half century before anything serious happens and it will be likes of China or India to bring the solution to fruition.

posted 04-30-2011 01:48 PM ET (US)            

"You think those are serious solutions you will be left to ashes and another half century before anything serious happens and it will be likes of China or India to bring the solution to fruition.

And from now on try not to get to emotional."
__________________________________

As my daughter would have said back in her pre-teen daze, "Oh my Gawd!"

I'll do my best to "try not to get emotional", lurkynot, but thanks for the advice. I must admit that I do get kinda emotional in a good way when I open my now-only-once-per-year PG&E bill and it tells me that my year's home electricity cost is zip, zero, nada, and that in fact my "fad" PV panels and the sun have provided me with totally free electricity, with some left over (that unfortunately PG&E gets to steal back here in California).

C'mon, guys. Alternatives are the answer. We've just gotta figure out the balance, and pour money that is otherwise wasted on wars and tax breaks for the filthy rich into energy R&D. For any who think that our oil addiction will lead anywhere except to the economic grave...well, I just pity you for your lack of imagination.
Some of you folks remind me of the stories I've read about the old late-nineteenth/early-twentieth century clods who insisted that automobiles and internal combustion motors had no future; that smart folks should keep investing in horse harness futures. Or, to make it more relevant to this boating forum, the early eighteenth-century stick-in-the-muds who decried Fulton's steam engine-powered ships as a mere "fad."

This nation prides itself in being a country of creative dreamers. Over the past twenty or thirty years we've seen folks like Steve Jobs and Bill Gates totally revolutionize the world with their ideas and entrepreneurial skills. I'm hoping that the world's ALTERNATIVE solution (or solutions) to a dying carbon economy is developed here at home by another Jobs or Gates; but if not, be sure of this...out of necessity it will be, somewhere.

Tony

posted 04-30-2011 01:52 PM ET (US)            

We are trading beads for oil. Sooner or later our trading partners will figure out our beads ain't worth nuttin'.

If they don't take our beads anymoe, I suppose we could invade and conquer Canada, Mexico and the Middle East for their oil before China needs to.

Wars for oil? No, we're just helping promote democracy. :-)

Warren

posted 04-30-2011 02:10 PM ET (US)            

This nation prides itself in being a country of creative dreamers. Over the past twenty or thirty years we've seen folks like Steve Jobs and Bill Gates totally revolutionize the world with their ideas and entrepreneurial skills. I'm hoping that the world's ALTERNATIVE solution (or solutions) to a dying carbon economy is developed here at home by another Jobs or Gates; but if not, be sure of this...out of necessity it will be, somewhere."

I have an idea! Lets just copy/paste your last reply and send it to Washington!

Oh wait a minute has'nt someone already said something like this before.

Well I guess it would not hurt to try again....

And since I have so much invested in one if not my favorite hobbies - boating - and would like a subsidy - real one to help pay for the only form of energy it will run on I will buy more oil/oil service companies.

posted 04-30-2011 02:15 PM ET (US)            

The problem is that we have no alternative. What can we burn in our cars and boats other than oil?

If we discover an alternative fuel source what are we going to do with our old cars and boats?

I suppose the good thing is that there will probably be less boaters on the water this coming season with the higher fuel prices. There's always a positive spin. :-)

There is not much we individuals can do about fuel prices. We're just going to have to grin and bear it.

posted 04-30-2011 02:50 PM ET (US)            

Tony

posted 04-30-2011 03:39 PM ET (US)            

quote:

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Some of you folks remind me of the stories I've read about the old late-nineteenth/early-twentieth century clods who insisted that automobiles and internal combustion motors had no future; that smart folks should keep investing in horse harness futures.

---

The key difference of course, being that IC engines were already viable alternatives in the market, and did not need to be either forced by law, or funded on the backs of the public. Whatever new energy that has a hope of replacing carbon fuels will have to share those same charactertics, or it will bankrupt its adherents. That said. I'm not against giving an alternate energy a little "nudge" off the proverbial dock with a little public funding. But after that, it HAS to be self-sustaining or it will be a boondoggle hat will never work. What am I missing?

posted 04-30-2011 04:18 PM ET (US)            

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2011/02/22/ why-apple-isnt-paying-a-dividend.aspx

So go ahead and tax the US oil companies with hoards of offshore cash. The money will just sit offshore benefitting other countries.

posted 04-30-2011 06:52 PM ET (US)            

"Ain't capitalism great? We've all got some chips, tiny amounts or enormous, to put on a number or two as the roulette wheel spins. Some of us will place our bets on a dying energy technology, with the hope that what occurs will be an easy, short-term profit. Others will take a more imaginative view, and hope that they've placed their chips on a future Microsoft or Apple equivalent. As I said, let's just see what happens."

______________________________________________________________

posted 04-30-2011 07:20 PM ET (US)            

Anyway...

Tony

posted 04-30-2011 08:43 PM ET (US)            

As an aside in a similar train of thought, why do federal government employees pay any income tax at all? Why not just pay them 39% less than they get right now and exempt them from federal income tax?

posted 05-01-2011 07:13 PM ET (US)            

You might be saying that my views are one-sided, where the private sector should on an advantageous footing in comparison to the public sector. Ummm yes, exactly. Well it should And wouldthat it were reality.