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Author Topic:   Hydraulic or NFB Cable?

Frogdog posted 06-30-2011 11:10 PM ET (US)
I saw some older posts (2006), but I wondered if anyone had some new, input regarding Hydraulic steering vs NFB Cable? For my late-sixties 16, I was originally going to use either a Teleflex SH5023 P, or SH5094 P (from the Safe-T series). I might have even upgraded to the SS137 kit. Then the folks at Teleflex suggested that I try the Teleflex HK4200A hydraulic system instead. I currently have a Johnson 90hp 2 stroke. The gentleman at Teleflex tech support said I would have less maintenance issues with the hydraulic system, it would last longer, and that it would be easier for my younger grandchildren to steer (apparently the no feed-back system has a clutch that requires about five pounds of force to disengage it). Are there really more turns required for lock to lock?
If I went with the hydraulic, could I run the lines through the center of the hull? And, would the multi-pitch helm be advisable (the cable, and original helm shaft came through the wood on the helm as opposed to being on top of the wood).
Thoughts? Thanks.
pcrussell50 posted 07-01-2011 12:07 AM ET (US)
I've got hydraulic on my 1998 Alert, which is a special services Montauk, and it's run through the tunnel. I didn't rig it myself though. It came that way, courtesy of the previous owner, CWW member, Fishnff/Brian. I like it a lot for a utility type boat like a Whaler.
For driving fast on a padded V-hull, I like more feel, which I get through a dual, opposed Teleflex cable steering setup. On the boat in question, it's called "dual ride-glide", but that may be a trademark of the brand involvled, Hydrostream.
-Peter
Fishmore posted 07-01-2011 01:29 AM ET (US)
I have had the original teleflex helm, the NFB II helm and the hydraulic helm on my 16.
The original helm was very easy to steer especially at the dock. The only problem being you could not let go of it without it wandering off on it's own. The NFB II steering I did not like at all. From the day I put it in it was too stiff when docking and it just did not feel quite right because it has a little play in it when switching direction. However, it's main advantages are that it does not wander and is less expensive than hydraulic steering. I now have the hydraulic steering and I am very happy with this setup. The hydraulic steering is much more comfortable, smooth, predictable and it does not wander.
The Hydraulic steering is less maintenance because instead of the motor using the steering rod and tube setup the hydraulic setup attaches the motor to the hydraulic cylinder. Which means no more greasing of the steering tube and rod and it reduces the chance of having your steering lock up on you if you forget to do this bit of maintenance.
I ran my hydraulic lines through the center of the hull no problem. It is much easier to run the hydraulic lines then it was to run the steering cable. I believe the multi-pitch helm would be a personal choice. I like the fixed helm with my console and the angle and height is very comfortable for me for sitting or standing. As far as being on top of the wood you will probably need to enlarge the helm hole to get the hydraulic fittings in to the old hole. You may also have a problem with the location of your old mounting bolts versus the new. To save aggravation for myself I cut the hole larger and mounted the hydraulic helm on a piece of 3/4 inch starboard that matched the plate I made for my engine controls. Then I through bolted the starboard to my console. You could use teak or another material instead of starboard depending on your preference.
Frogdog posted 07-01-2011 10:49 AM ET (US)
After doing a little research, I see that the Teleflex SH5023 and SH5094 are for boats that do not require NFB. The boat came with the 5023, but the shaft was damaged during the helm disassembly. I only had the boat out on the water once, so I don't really remember how much pull there was. Frankly, I don't recall there being much, but that may have been just a matter of perspective.
With that, I guess now my question is, should I install a helm for boats that do not require NFB systems (as the boat had previously), or a NFB cable System, or Hydraulic steering system. Again, it's a late-sixties Currituck.
-Froggie
contender posted 07-01-2011 12:24 PM ET (US)
Frog: I have a 1975 16'7'' whaler that has had a teleflex steering system since I rigged it in 1985 with a new engine. From 1985 to last year I replaced the steering cable once, cost about $100 give or take. Last year Jan. it was time to re-due my whaler, I stripped everything built a new console sanded the boat from top to bottom inside and out. I choose to go with a new Sea Star Steering system. The system cost me around $800.00 plus, I install it myself and made my own lines. Since I have own both I can give you the good and bad of both systems.
Teleflex:
Good: Cheaper, dependable, will never leak, easy to fix. Bad: can not let go of the wheel while under way, big black cable loop, needs to be greased/cleaned so it does not bind up.
Sea Star:
Good: smooth steering, can let go of the wheel, cleaner install.
Bad: Can leak, a lot of connections, expensive, eventually will have to replace seals in the cylinder or/and the helm.
PS. I was able to run both the sea star and the teleflex hoses/cable through the tunnel with no problems....
I understand that the Hydraulic steering is better than the Mechanical steering but you have to weight the cost, is it worth it to you? Good luck
Tom W Clark posted 07-01-2011 01:12 PM ET (US)
A Currituck with a 90 can use any number of different Teleflex steering systems. It gets confusing because of the number of choices but also because of the names Teleflex uses for their various systems.
In a nut shell, I would consider five different Teleflex systems for this boat, three are mechanical cable systems and two are hydraulic, though options within each makes the choices far greater.
The closest thing to the original steering in the Currituck is the Teleflex SAFE-T QC system. This is a non NFB system that only takes three turns of the steering wheel, lock-to-lock.
If you want this system with the addition of the NFB clutch, it becomes the SAFE-T II system. Same three turns lock-to-lock but if you let go of the wheel, it will stay.
You can also buy the NFB 4.2 which is exactly the same as the SAFE-T II except the steering is geared down to 4.2 turns lock-to-lock. Less effort, but more turns.
All there is these systems can be bought as complete kits for less than $200 even after you buy the optional 20 degree bezel you will need to make it work on the flat topped console of a Currituck.
If you want hydraulic steering, your choices are the Teleflex BayStar or the SeaStar systems. The former is designed only for outboards up to 150 HP. The SeaStar can be used with any outboard.
The BayStar costs about $450-$500 complete and it will take a full 5 turns of the steering wheel to get form one side to the other. The steering effort is very smooth because it is very s l o w. If you like driving a bus, this system may be for you.
If you choose a SeaStar system, it ill set you back $800-$1000. The turns lock-to-lock will depend on which of four helm sizes you choose, 1.4, 1.7. 2.0 or 2.4 cubic inch capacity.
The lower the cu. in. capacity, the less the effort but the more turns of the steering wheel to go from lock-to-lock. On a Currituck with a 90 you would not want to use either the 1.4 or the 1.7 cu. in. helms.
Clear as mud?
Frogdog posted 07-01-2011 09:55 PM ET (US)
Thanks to all who responded. This site is a great resource.
Tom, I was reading an older post of yours on a similar subject. You said that you enjoyed a little feedback in the smaller boats (I'd say 16' 7" falls into that category). You said that the "feedback" gave you a better feel for the water and its conditions. You compared it to driving a responsive sports car. That post hit a chord with me. I have never used the NFB system, so I don't know how they feel. Does one lose the "feel" of the water/boat with it? Is the clutch difficult to disengage?
I'm giving serious consideration to sticking with the original (non NFB) system because of the "feel". If I did, could the cable be run through the tunnel in the hull (with a longer cable)?
And finally, I can get an SH5023, but the kits only come with the SH5094. At first blush, the only difference between the two seems to be that the 5094 has the quick connect. But if you were to purchase the 5023 and 5094 seperately, you would have to pay over double for the 5023. For this reason, I'd infer that there is some functional and/or quality difference.
Again, thanks to all for any insight you can provide.
Cheers!
Tom W Clark posted 07-02-2011 11:14 AM ET (US)
You are using part numbers that do not mean anything to me or most people reading this. Could you explain what those parts are?
Yes, I do like the feedback. If you choose an NFB system, you do not disengage the clutch, it is what it is. You still feel the amount of effort it takes to turn the wheel in one direction or the other and that tells you something, but if you let go of the wheel, it does not move.
I also sense a bit of added slop in the steering with the NFB systems, but perhaps they have made them better over the years.
The trouble with NFB is it masks a pull in the motor. If a motor is set up correctly, it should not pull to one side or the other if you let go of the wheel at your normal cruising speed and trim. But if you have an NFB system, you may not sense the motor trying to pull.
The usual manifestation of this with the NFB systems if that you hear people complaining of the boat listing to port while underway. This is cause by the trim tab being out of adjustment which will cause a great deal of "pull" in the steering. With systems that do not have an NFB mechanism in them, the pull is very apparent. With NFB, a lot of people do not figure this out.
All that said, a motor will pull to one side trimmed in and pull the other way trimmed out. There is only one range where the trim tab can make the steering perfectly neutral and for situations where a great deal of trim range is used, an NFB system can help control the pull, especially in the hands of younger boaters.

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Author	Topic: Hydraulic or NFB Cable?
Frogdog	posted 06-30-2011 11:10 PM ET (US) I saw some older posts (2006), but I wondered if anyone had some new, input regarding Hydraulic steering vs NFB Cable? For my late-sixties 16, I was originally going to use either a Teleflex SH5023 P, or SH5094 P (from the Safe-T series). I might have even upgraded to the SS137 kit. Then the folks at Teleflex suggested that I try the Teleflex HK4200A hydraulic system instead. I currently have a Johnson 90hp 2 stroke. The gentleman at Teleflex tech support said I would have less maintenance issues with the hydraulic system, it would last longer, and that it would be easier for my younger grandchildren to steer (apparently the no feed-back system has a clutch that requires about five pounds of force to disengage it). Are there really more turns required for lock to lock? If I went with the hydraulic, could I run the lines through the center of the hull? And, would the multi-pitch helm be advisable (the cable, and original helm shaft came through the wood on the helm as opposed to being on top of the wood). Thoughts? Thanks.
pcrussell50	posted 07-01-2011 12:07 AM ET (US) I've got hydraulic on my 1998 Alert, which is a special services Montauk, and it's run through the tunnel. I didn't rig it myself though. It came that way, courtesy of the previous owner, CWW member, Fishnff/Brian. I like it a lot for a utility type boat like a Whaler. For driving fast on a padded V-hull, I like more feel, which I get through a dual, opposed Teleflex cable steering setup. On the boat in question, it's called "dual ride-glide", but that may be a trademark of the brand involvled, Hydrostream. -Peter
Fishmore	posted 07-01-2011 01:29 AM ET (US) I have had the original teleflex helm, the NFB II helm and the hydraulic helm on my 16. The original helm was very easy to steer especially at the dock. The only problem being you could not let go of it without it wandering off on it's own. The NFB II steering I did not like at all. From the day I put it in it was too stiff when docking and it just did not feel quite right because it has a little play in it when switching direction. However, it's main advantages are that it does not wander and is less expensive than hydraulic steering. I now have the hydraulic steering and I am very happy with this setup. The hydraulic steering is much more comfortable, smooth, predictable and it does not wander. The Hydraulic steering is less maintenance because instead of the motor using the steering rod and tube setup the hydraulic setup attaches the motor to the hydraulic cylinder. Which means no more greasing of the steering tube and rod and it reduces the chance of having your steering lock up on you if you forget to do this bit of maintenance. I ran my hydraulic lines through the center of the hull no problem. It is much easier to run the hydraulic lines then it was to run the steering cable. I believe the multi-pitch helm would be a personal choice. I like the fixed helm with my console and the angle and height is very comfortable for me for sitting or standing. As far as being on top of the wood you will probably need to enlarge the helm hole to get the hydraulic fittings in to the old hole. You may also have a problem with the location of your old mounting bolts versus the new. To save aggravation for myself I cut the hole larger and mounted the hydraulic helm on a piece of 3/4 inch starboard that matched the plate I made for my engine controls. Then I through bolted the starboard to my console. You could use teak or another material instead of starboard depending on your preference.
Frogdog	posted 07-01-2011 10:49 AM ET (US) After doing a little research, I see that the Teleflex SH5023 and SH5094 are for boats that do not require NFB. The boat came with the 5023, but the shaft was damaged during the helm disassembly. I only had the boat out on the water once, so I don't really remember how much pull there was. Frankly, I don't recall there being much, but that may have been just a matter of perspective. With that, I guess now my question is, should I install a helm for boats that do not require NFB systems (as the boat had previously), or a NFB cable System, or Hydraulic steering system. Again, it's a late-sixties Currituck. -Froggie
contender	posted 07-01-2011 12:24 PM ET (US) Frog: I have a 1975 16'7'' whaler that has had a teleflex steering system since I rigged it in 1985 with a new engine. From 1985 to last year I replaced the steering cable once, cost about $100 give or take. Last year Jan. it was time to re-due my whaler, I stripped everything built a new console sanded the boat from top to bottom inside and out. I choose to go with a new Sea Star Steering system. The system cost me around $800.00 plus, I install it myself and made my own lines. Since I have own both I can give you the good and bad of both systems. Teleflex: Good: Cheaper, dependable, will never leak, easy to fix. Bad: can not let go of the wheel while under way, big black cable loop, needs to be greased/cleaned so it does not bind up. Sea Star: Good: smooth steering, can let go of the wheel, cleaner install. Bad: Can leak, a lot of connections, expensive, eventually will have to replace seals in the cylinder or/and the helm. PS. I was able to run both the sea star and the teleflex hoses/cable through the tunnel with no problems.... I understand that the Hydraulic steering is better than the Mechanical steering but you have to weight the cost, is it worth it to you? Good luck
Tom W Clark	posted 07-01-2011 01:12 PM ET (US) A Currituck with a 90 can use any number of different Teleflex steering systems. It gets confusing because of the number of choices but also because of the names Teleflex uses for their various systems. In a nut shell, I would consider five different Teleflex systems for this boat, three are mechanical cable systems and two are hydraulic, though options within each makes the choices far greater. The closest thing to the original steering in the Currituck is the Teleflex SAFE-T QC system. This is a non NFB system that only takes three turns of the steering wheel, lock-to-lock. If you want this system with the addition of the NFB clutch, it becomes the SAFE-T II system. Same three turns lock-to-lock but if you let go of the wheel, it will stay. You can also buy the NFB 4.2 which is exactly the same as the SAFE-T II except the steering is geared down to 4.2 turns lock-to-lock. Less effort, but more turns. All there is these systems can be bought as complete kits for less than $200 even after you buy the optional 20 degree bezel you will need to make it work on the flat topped console of a Currituck. If you want hydraulic steering, your choices are the Teleflex BayStar or the SeaStar systems. The former is designed only for outboards up to 150 HP. The SeaStar can be used with any outboard. The BayStar costs about $450-$500 complete and it will take a full 5 turns of the steering wheel to get form one side to the other. The steering effort is very smooth because it is very s l o w. If you like driving a bus, this system may be for you. If you choose a SeaStar system, it ill set you back $800-$1000. The turns lock-to-lock will depend on which of four helm sizes you choose, 1.4, 1.7. 2.0 or 2.4 cubic inch capacity. The lower the cu. in. capacity, the less the effort but the more turns of the steering wheel to go from lock-to-lock. On a Currituck with a 90 you would not want to use either the 1.4 or the 1.7 cu. in. helms. Clear as mud?
Frogdog	posted 07-01-2011 09:55 PM ET (US) Thanks to all who responded. This site is a great resource. Tom, I was reading an older post of yours on a similar subject. You said that you enjoyed a little feedback in the smaller boats (I'd say 16' 7" falls into that category). You said that the "feedback" gave you a better feel for the water and its conditions. You compared it to driving a responsive sports car. That post hit a chord with me. I have never used the NFB system, so I don't know how they feel. Does one lose the "feel" of the water/boat with it? Is the clutch difficult to disengage? I'm giving serious consideration to sticking with the original (non NFB) system because of the "feel". If I did, could the cable be run through the tunnel in the hull (with a longer cable)? And finally, I can get an SH5023, but the kits only come with the SH5094. At first blush, the only difference between the two seems to be that the 5094 has the quick connect. But if you were to purchase the 5023 and 5094 seperately, you would have to pay over double for the 5023. For this reason, I'd infer that there is some functional and/or quality difference. Again, thanks to all for any insight you can provide. Cheers!
Tom W Clark	posted 07-02-2011 11:14 AM ET (US) You are using part numbers that do not mean anything to me or most people reading this. Could you explain what those parts are? Yes, I do like the feedback. If you choose an NFB system, you do not disengage the clutch, it is what it is. You still feel the amount of effort it takes to turn the wheel in one direction or the other and that tells you something, but if you let go of the wheel, it does not move. I also sense a bit of added slop in the steering with the NFB systems, but perhaps they have made them better over the years. The trouble with NFB is it masks a pull in the motor. If a motor is set up correctly, it should not pull to one side or the other if you let go of the wheel at your normal cruising speed and trim. But if you have an NFB system, you may not sense the motor trying to pull. The usual manifestation of this with the NFB systems if that you hear people complaining of the boat listing to port while underway. This is cause by the trim tab being out of adjustment which will cause a great deal of "pull" in the steering. With systems that do not have an NFB mechanism in them, the pull is very apparent. With NFB, a lot of people do not figure this out. All that said, a motor will pull to one side trimmed in and pull the other way trimmed out. There is only one range where the trim tab can make the steering perfectly neutral and for situations where a great deal of trim range is used, an NFB system can help control the pull, especially in the hands of younger boaters.