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Author Topic:   Anchor line length for Montauk

roverguy posted 07-15-2011 01:57 PM ET (US)
I'm running on salt water, 20-120 feet. Want to get as much 3/8 anchor line as possible in my locker. New boat has no anchor.
What is the max amount of 3/8" with a Danforth you can fit in with out stuffing it.
Would like 200 min.
Thanks
jimp posted 07-15-2011 03:19 PM ET (US)
roverguy -
No idea of the answer. Just an idea for a solution.
For years we anchored in depths of 3' to 120' on Long Island, NY. A majority of it was shallow so Dad had the primary anchor on a "short rode" (about 25') with an eye splice on the end. This was used 90% of the time and easy to coil and get the kinks out. The secondary or "long rode" had a screw-pin shackle spliced in and could be shackled to the short rode very easily in case we were in deeper water.
The long rode could be kept elsewhere - in a cooler or center console, helping to keep your weight aft. Another advantage was that there were few problems with kinks in the long rode as it was used less.
So in your case, your short rode could be 50-60' and have another 150' or more stowed elsewhere. If needed, shackle it in.
JimP
Slick 50 posted 07-15-2011 03:56 PM ET (US)
Hanging 5 or 6 feet of galvanized 5/16" or 3/8" chain in front of the anchor will enable you to hook up with much less anchor line. I believe the chain needs to weigh as much as the anchor. Trying to remember but something like 3 times the depth of rope is needed for proper anchoring.
Good idea about using a short rope when a long one is not needed.
Good luck,
Rick
gnr posted 07-15-2011 04:01 PM ET (US)
Ayup,
That's what I do.
lizard posted 07-15-2011 07:05 PM ET (US)
To obtain maximum holding power of your anchor, the total anchor rode should be 4 to 7 times the depth of the water you will be anchoring in. 7:1 is considered ideal but in tight anchorages this may not be possible.
Though I have never tried it, I like Jimp's recommendation of two separate lines. I would carry stainless wire with me to secure the screw pin, if I were going to shackle a secondary line to the primary, shorter anchor and rode.
Newtauk1 posted 07-16-2011 01:27 AM ET (US)
I have a 17' Whaler and carry the same anchor set up. I have a Danforth anchor with 6' of chain. I carry 300' of 3/8 line. I coil and tie abot 200' of the line with a bungee cord. I store all line in he anchor locker with room to put life jackets. The weight of the line and anchor have now impact of the bows weight.
I assume a scope of a 3-1 ratio. I think Lizards ratio of 4(7) to 1 is a bit off. 700' of anchor line in 100' of water seems a bit much.
Tohsgib posted 07-16-2011 09:27 AM ET (US)
7:1 is if you you are leaving the ship(not a boat) and want to see it again after a storm, etc. If you are actually on the boat(which you should be) then even 2:1 is fine with 5' of chain. You could even use 1/4" Poly for your long line. 300' would fit anywhere.
boatdryver posted 07-16-2011 10:12 AM ET (US)
If you decide on 300 feet for your long rode and you find it is hard to prevent tangles and knots when letting it down, try putting it in a bucket and keeping the two ends separated.
I did this with 400 feet of 1/4 poly crab line and it worked well, but of course storage of the bucket becomes a problem
JimL
lizard posted 07-16-2011 10:57 AM ET (US)
Sure, in some settings you can get away with a 2:1 scope, but it is not recommended. 7:1 is the standard recommendation by most marine authorities. The more scope the better the anchor grab. The recommended line for a boat that size is 3/8ths.
Roverguy-there are plenty of sites (BoatUS) you can check on that will tell you anchor size, chain gauge and length and rope length, so that you are adequately outfitted.
gnr posted 07-16-2011 11:24 AM ET (US)
Recommendations are usually/always for worst case scenarios.
I have anchored up a ton over the years whether on a fishing spot or to go for a swim or for an overnight camping trip. I don't recall EVER having to use more than 3:1 and usually not even that. Sure I might someday need that but it hasn't happened yet.
2manyboats posted 07-16-2011 12:55 PM ET (US)
A Montauk is so light and low profile, that 300ft is more than enough anchor line to hold in 120ft of water. But I think the question was how much line will fit in the anchor locker.
contender posted 07-16-2011 12:55 PM ET (US)
Lizard is correct, and so is Tohsgib and I even think it is 8:1 to be correct, The key is to have a chain, and at least 6-8 ft for the 17 whaler. The anchor hooks the bottom and the chain holds the anchor on the bottom. I have a 17 whaler with 250ft on my anchor line and another 150ft under the console. I used/have a small Danforth Alum. Anchor. You need to think about what you do and the kind of bottom you have, If you have the room under the console I would also invest in an anchor ball (you may need it one day)
pglein posted 07-16-2011 01:23 PM ET (US)
A Danforth anchor is designed to rely on the weight of a chain leader to keep the angle of the pull low. Danforths a completely dependent upon that low pull angle, and thus, require longer, heavier chain leaders that other, similarly-rated anchors.
Personally, I am not a fan of the Danforth anchor, but this is more a symptom of it's unsuitability for my boating area. They are excellent for use in shallow water with sandy or grassy bottoms, such as are found along much of the East coast and on many lakes and rivers. This, along with it's easy storage, probably explains the popularity of the Danforth anchor.
pglein posted 07-16-2011 01:27 PM ET (US)
Oh, and if you secure the bitter end of the anchor rode to an eye bolt in the locker, and deploy and retrieve the full length of the rode 2-3 times, you will not have any problems with it knoting, kinking, or snagging. Larger yachts employ this setup for completely remote windlass deployment and retrieval of their achors all the time.
lakeman posted 07-16-2011 09:02 PM ET (US)
May depend on what the bottom is like, in all my boats, fishing in the Keys, on the reef at 70 feet to 4 feet of water in the bay and else where, I only used 150 feet of anchor rode with 4 feet of chain. Only in a big wind and in grass did I have a problem, and probably the style of anchor as much as the length of the rode. Yes the rules for anchoring are good, but for the average fisherman and area, well experience counts
roverguy posted 07-17-2011 09:23 AM ET (US)
I ended up getting 200' of 3/8" 3 strand braided as recommended by the marine store. Also 6' of 5/16" chain. Looks like I could have gone another 50' and still had some room in the locker. I am coming from a '69 Sakonet so am glad to have all the space.
My area is mostly sandy (Ipswich Bay) and really the only time I'd be in 120' is if I was bottom fishing for cod; which I don't do often.
Other than that it's running over to the beach and leaving the boat off the sand bar. It usually gets pretty crowded so long scope is not an option anyway. We usually end up throwing out a small stern anchor to stop from swinging around, so it's never in nasty weather.
Link to photos of my new Montauk; haven't even washed or waxed her yet. Working on getting my 13' in this week then its to re-wiring the Montauk. It's in great shape.
https://picasaweb.google.com/ghamilton.2007/Montauck?authkey=Gv1sRgCNS27ark04bBkQE
Thanks for all the input.
Newtauk1 posted 07-17-2011 12:26 PM ET (US)
roverguy-
I boat the same areas. In fact I'm leaving now for the back end of Cranes for the afternoon. You will be fine with that set up. The stern anchor is helpful in your(our) area.
Newtauk1 posted 07-17-2011 12:29 PM ET (US)
https://picasaweb.google.com/ghamilton.2007/ Montauck?authkey=Gv1sRgCNS27ark04bBkQE
andygere posted 07-17-2011 06:01 PM ET (US)
A boat length's of chain will shorten the amount of scope you need. By how much is really variable, and depends on wind, bottom conditions, anchor type, current, etc. Adding a lot of chain to my Fortress anchor did wonders for the holding power, even when short scoped. Some careful experimentation will be needed to determine how short you can go. 7-1 is just not practical in many anchorages, so you may need to adapt.
newt posted 07-17-2011 08:41 PM ET (US)
Ah, Crane's Beach. I was there most of the day myself. What a perfect day. Newtauk, we may have passed each other at some point. Maybe we will catch up there sometime this summer.
My first time at Crane's a few years ago, we did not have our second anchor. A stern line tied off to a 1/2 buried paddle worked that day, but now we know and always have a stern anchor. I'd say it's a must have for that spot.
Chuck Tribolet posted 07-18-2011 12:45 AM ET (US)
I get 250' of 3/8" line in a bucket on my Montauk, and still
have room to store two fenders, and 150' 1/4" poly current
line (diver thing). I have a 5 pound Danforth HiTensile,
and 13' of SS chain. For how I stow it, see:
http://www.garlic.com/~triblet/whaler/
The folks who say 4 to 7 times the depth of water are reading
books for yachties who aren't on board, or asleep, or drinking.
lizard posted 07-18-2011 02:18 PM ET (US)
I got my recommendations from the Coast Guard, who said 5:1 in calm boating and 7:1 in stormy or unpredictable seas. I agree that 7:1 would be difficult to achieve in crowded anchorages, but I try to be as prepared as I can, for the unexpected.
Chuck- I liked your bucket idea/construction. That McMaster-Carr site was a great link. I am guessing that you selected the plastic vs rubber bucket, as it would be easier to cut? Does the bucket movement damage the bow locker interior? Did you consider any kind of product to line the locker?
I am also seeking recommendations for how others mark their line to designate length payed out.
Tom W Clark posted 07-18-2011 02:21 PM ET (US)
Scope depends on a lot of factors. I once anchored a very expensive 50' sailing yacht in 90 feet of water with 150 of rode out. I slept on board that night and it blew very, very hard. The anchor did not drag.
How did I do that?
lizard posted 07-18-2011 02:46 PM ET (US)
Huevos?
Chuck Tribolet posted 07-18-2011 03:48 PM ET (US)
The bucket I'm currently using, I got from OSH (Local HW store
chain). I did get a plastic bucket from McMaster.com, but
the old one refuses to die. No problem with the bucket
damaging the bow locker. The chain scuffs the bottom a bit,
the anchor scuffs the bottom of the lid a bit.

Chuck
andygere posted 07-18-2011 03:59 PM ET (US)
@Tom -- All chain rode.
lizard posted 07-18-2011 04:07 PM ET (US)
Andy- wouldn't the risk of an all chain rode be that you could literally rip it from the deck, without the "give" of a line, in conditions such as the one Tom described?
WT posted 07-18-2011 04:39 PM ET (US)
The anchor was wrapped around a redwood tree? :-)
Warren
Tom W Clark posted 07-18-2011 05:11 PM ET (US)
Andy is correct, the boat uses an all-chain (3/8") anchor rode. That chain weighs a great deal. The weight of the chain means the pull exerted on the anchor will be much closer to parallel to the bottom and less likely to pull the anchor out of the bottom
The weight also provides it with a great deal of "give". Gravity pulls the line of chain into an arc (unless it is hanging perfectly up and down) and as more force is exerted on the boat, as in a wind storm, the chain begins to straighten, storing energy which is then released as the strain is eased. It acts as a big spring to store and release that potential energy without any jerks.
In this particular instance, I was aided by having the stern tied to shore to a tree which limited the amount the boat could swing around on the anchor; the strain on the anchor itself was always in the same general direction.
Additionally, we were anchored in Tenedos Bay, in the Desolation Sound Marine Provincial Park in British Columbia. The shoreline on the Southeast side of this large bay is very, very steep. This is why I had to tie ashore, to make the pull on the anchor "uphill", more inline with the strain exerted upon it.
While the anchor may have been 90 feet deep, the stern of the boat which was nearly touching the tree branches during the big gusts, was in about 20 feet of water. The depthsounder, whose transducer was mounted amidship perhaps 20 feet further away from shore was showing a depth of about 50 feet.
I mention all this because there is no one rule for anchor size, rode, or scope. Every situation is different, sometimes very different.

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Author	Topic: Anchor line length for Montauk
roverguy	posted 07-15-2011 01:57 PM ET (US) I'm running on salt water, 20-120 feet. Want to get as much 3/8 anchor line as possible in my locker. New boat has no anchor. What is the max amount of 3/8" with a Danforth you can fit in with out stuffing it. Would like 200 min. Thanks
jimp	posted 07-15-2011 03:19 PM ET (US) roverguy - No idea of the answer. Just an idea for a solution. For years we anchored in depths of 3' to 120' on Long Island, NY. A majority of it was shallow so Dad had the primary anchor on a "short rode" (about 25') with an eye splice on the end. This was used 90% of the time and easy to coil and get the kinks out. The secondary or "long rode" had a screw-pin shackle spliced in and could be shackled to the short rode very easily in case we were in deeper water. The long rode could be kept elsewhere - in a cooler or center console, helping to keep your weight aft. Another advantage was that there were few problems with kinks in the long rode as it was used less. So in your case, your short rode could be 50-60' and have another 150' or more stowed elsewhere. If needed, shackle it in. JimP
Slick 50	posted 07-15-2011 03:56 PM ET (US) Hanging 5 or 6 feet of galvanized 5/16" or 3/8" chain in front of the anchor will enable you to hook up with much less anchor line. I believe the chain needs to weigh as much as the anchor. Trying to remember but something like 3 times the depth of rope is needed for proper anchoring. Good idea about using a short rope when a long one is not needed. Good luck, Rick
gnr	posted 07-15-2011 04:01 PM ET (US) Ayup, That's what I do.
lizard	posted 07-15-2011 07:05 PM ET (US) To obtain maximum holding power of your anchor, the total anchor rode should be 4 to 7 times the depth of the water you will be anchoring in. 7:1 is considered ideal but in tight anchorages this may not be possible. Though I have never tried it, I like Jimp's recommendation of two separate lines. I would carry stainless wire with me to secure the screw pin, if I were going to shackle a secondary line to the primary, shorter anchor and rode.
Newtauk1	posted 07-16-2011 01:27 AM ET (US) I have a 17' Whaler and carry the same anchor set up. I have a Danforth anchor with 6' of chain. I carry 300' of 3/8 line. I coil and tie abot 200' of the line with a bungee cord. I store all line in he anchor locker with room to put life jackets. The weight of the line and anchor have now impact of the bows weight. I assume a scope of a 3-1 ratio. I think Lizards ratio of 4(7) to 1 is a bit off. 700' of anchor line in 100' of water seems a bit much.
Tohsgib	posted 07-16-2011 09:27 AM ET (US) 7:1 is if you you are leaving the ship(not a boat) and want to see it again after a storm, etc. If you are actually on the boat(which you should be) then even 2:1 is fine with 5' of chain. You could even use 1/4" Poly for your long line. 300' would fit anywhere.
boatdryver	posted 07-16-2011 10:12 AM ET (US) If you decide on 300 feet for your long rode and you find it is hard to prevent tangles and knots when letting it down, try putting it in a bucket and keeping the two ends separated. I did this with 400 feet of 1/4 poly crab line and it worked well, but of course storage of the bucket becomes a problem JimL
lizard	posted 07-16-2011 10:57 AM ET (US) Sure, in some settings you can get away with a 2:1 scope, but it is not recommended. 7:1 is the standard recommendation by most marine authorities. The more scope the better the anchor grab. The recommended line for a boat that size is 3/8ths. Roverguy-there are plenty of sites (BoatUS) you can check on that will tell you anchor size, chain gauge and length and rope length, so that you are adequately outfitted.
gnr	posted 07-16-2011 11:24 AM ET (US) Recommendations are usually/always for worst case scenarios. I have anchored up a ton over the years whether on a fishing spot or to go for a swim or for an overnight camping trip. I don't recall EVER having to use more than 3:1 and usually not even that. Sure I might someday need that but it hasn't happened yet.
2manyboats	posted 07-16-2011 12:55 PM ET (US) A Montauk is so light and low profile, that 300ft is more than enough anchor line to hold in 120ft of water. But I think the question was how much line will fit in the anchor locker.
contender	posted 07-16-2011 12:55 PM ET (US) Lizard is correct, and so is Tohsgib and I even think it is 8:1 to be correct, The key is to have a chain, and at least 6-8 ft for the 17 whaler. The anchor hooks the bottom and the chain holds the anchor on the bottom. I have a 17 whaler with 250ft on my anchor line and another 150ft under the console. I used/have a small Danforth Alum. Anchor. You need to think about what you do and the kind of bottom you have, If you have the room under the console I would also invest in an anchor ball (you may need it one day)
pglein	posted 07-16-2011 01:23 PM ET (US) A Danforth anchor is designed to rely on the weight of a chain leader to keep the angle of the pull low. Danforths a completely dependent upon that low pull angle, and thus, require longer, heavier chain leaders that other, similarly-rated anchors. Personally, I am not a fan of the Danforth anchor, but this is more a symptom of it's unsuitability for my boating area. They are excellent for use in shallow water with sandy or grassy bottoms, such as are found along much of the East coast and on many lakes and rivers. This, along with it's easy storage, probably explains the popularity of the Danforth anchor.
pglein	posted 07-16-2011 01:27 PM ET (US) Oh, and if you secure the bitter end of the anchor rode to an eye bolt in the locker, and deploy and retrieve the full length of the rode 2-3 times, you will not have any problems with it knoting, kinking, or snagging. Larger yachts employ this setup for completely remote windlass deployment and retrieval of their achors all the time.
lakeman	posted 07-16-2011 09:02 PM ET (US) May depend on what the bottom is like, in all my boats, fishing in the Keys, on the reef at 70 feet to 4 feet of water in the bay and else where, I only used 150 feet of anchor rode with 4 feet of chain. Only in a big wind and in grass did I have a problem, and probably the style of anchor as much as the length of the rode. Yes the rules for anchoring are good, but for the average fisherman and area, well experience counts
roverguy	posted 07-17-2011 09:23 AM ET (US) I ended up getting 200' of 3/8" 3 strand braided as recommended by the marine store. Also 6' of 5/16" chain. Looks like I could have gone another 50' and still had some room in the locker. I am coming from a '69 Sakonet so am glad to have all the space. My area is mostly sandy (Ipswich Bay) and really the only time I'd be in 120' is if I was bottom fishing for cod; which I don't do often. Other than that it's running over to the beach and leaving the boat off the sand bar. It usually gets pretty crowded so long scope is not an option anyway. We usually end up throwing out a small stern anchor to stop from swinging around, so it's never in nasty weather. Link to photos of my new Montauk; haven't even washed or waxed her yet. Working on getting my 13' in this week then its to re-wiring the Montauk. It's in great shape. https://picasaweb.google.com/ghamilton.2007/Montauck?authkey=Gv1sRgCNS27ark04bBkQE Thanks for all the input.
Newtauk1	posted 07-17-2011 12:26 PM ET (US) roverguy- I boat the same areas. In fact I'm leaving now for the back end of Cranes for the afternoon. You will be fine with that set up. The stern anchor is helpful in your(our) area.
Newtauk1	posted 07-17-2011 12:29 PM ET (US) https://picasaweb.google.com/ghamilton.2007/ Montauck?authkey=Gv1sRgCNS27ark04bBkQE
andygere	posted 07-17-2011 06:01 PM ET (US) A boat length's of chain will shorten the amount of scope you need. By how much is really variable, and depends on wind, bottom conditions, anchor type, current, etc. Adding a lot of chain to my Fortress anchor did wonders for the holding power, even when short scoped. Some careful experimentation will be needed to determine how short you can go. 7-1 is just not practical in many anchorages, so you may need to adapt.
newt	posted 07-17-2011 08:41 PM ET (US) Ah, Crane's Beach. I was there most of the day myself. What a perfect day. Newtauk, we may have passed each other at some point. Maybe we will catch up there sometime this summer. My first time at Crane's a few years ago, we did not have our second anchor. A stern line tied off to a 1/2 buried paddle worked that day, but now we know and always have a stern anchor. I'd say it's a must have for that spot.
Chuck Tribolet	posted 07-18-2011 12:45 AM ET (US) I get 250' of 3/8" line in a bucket on my Montauk, and still have room to store two fenders, and 150' 1/4" poly current line (diver thing). I have a 5 pound Danforth HiTensile, and 13' of SS chain. For how I stow it, see: http://www.garlic.com/~triblet/whaler/ The folks who say 4 to 7 times the depth of water are reading books for yachties who aren't on board, or asleep, or drinking.
lizard	posted 07-18-2011 02:18 PM ET (US) I got my recommendations from the Coast Guard, who said 5:1 in calm boating and 7:1 in stormy or unpredictable seas. I agree that 7:1 would be difficult to achieve in crowded anchorages, but I try to be as prepared as I can, for the unexpected. Chuck- I liked your bucket idea/construction. That McMaster-Carr site was a great link. I am guessing that you selected the plastic vs rubber bucket, as it would be easier to cut? Does the bucket movement damage the bow locker interior? Did you consider any kind of product to line the locker? I am also seeking recommendations for how others mark their line to designate length payed out.
Tom W Clark	posted 07-18-2011 02:21 PM ET (US) Scope depends on a lot of factors. I once anchored a very expensive 50' sailing yacht in 90 feet of water with 150 of rode out. I slept on board that night and it blew very, very hard. The anchor did not drag. How did I do that?
lizard	posted 07-18-2011 02:46 PM ET (US) Huevos?
Chuck Tribolet	posted 07-18-2011 03:48 PM ET (US) The bucket I'm currently using, I got from OSH (Local HW store chain). I did get a plastic bucket from McMaster.com, but the old one refuses to die. No problem with the bucket damaging the bow locker. The chain scuffs the bottom a bit, the anchor scuffs the bottom of the lid a bit. Chuck
andygere	posted 07-18-2011 03:59 PM ET (US) @Tom -- All chain rode.
lizard	posted 07-18-2011 04:07 PM ET (US) Andy- wouldn't the risk of an all chain rode be that you could literally rip it from the deck, without the "give" of a line, in conditions such as the one Tom described?
WT	posted 07-18-2011 04:39 PM ET (US) The anchor was wrapped around a redwood tree? :-) Warren
Tom W Clark	posted 07-18-2011 05:11 PM ET (US) Andy is correct, the boat uses an all-chain (3/8") anchor rode. That chain weighs a great deal. The weight of the chain means the pull exerted on the anchor will be much closer to parallel to the bottom and less likely to pull the anchor out of the bottom The weight also provides it with a great deal of "give". Gravity pulls the line of chain into an arc (unless it is hanging perfectly up and down) and as more force is exerted on the boat, as in a wind storm, the chain begins to straighten, storing energy which is then released as the strain is eased. It acts as a big spring to store and release that potential energy without any jerks. In this particular instance, I was aided by having the stern tied to shore to a tree which limited the amount the boat could swing around on the anchor; the strain on the anchor itself was always in the same general direction. Additionally, we were anchored in Tenedos Bay, in the Desolation Sound Marine Provincial Park in British Columbia. The shoreline on the Southeast side of this large bay is very, very steep. This is why I had to tie ashore, to make the pull on the anchor "uphill", more inline with the strain exerted upon it. While the anchor may have been 90 feet deep, the stern of the boat which was nearly touching the tree branches during the big gusts, was in about 20 feet of water. The depthsounder, whose transducer was mounted amidship perhaps 20 feet further away from shore was showing a depth of about 50 feet. I mention all this because there is no one rule for anchor size, rode, or scope. Every situation is different, sometimes very different.