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Author Topic:   Wake surfing Whaler?

pcrussell50 posted 07-20-2011 07:14 PM ET (US)
Something about the gunwale and the shape of the windshield of this boat looks a little Whaler'ish.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fl_5X1OOLf0&feature=related
Makes me want to try it with my heavy '98 classic 17. I already know I can trim the Merc 90 FourStroke way out on launch, and have the boat plow righteously nose high and slowly, and I can keep it that way. If I had a spotter standing in the port corner, and the trim tabs rigged right, (mine has electric trim tabs), I wonder if I could pull this off? I already own a longboard that I use for surfing small waves anyway.
-Peter
Jeff posted 07-20-2011 07:17 PM ET (US)
That is a 21 smooth-sided Outrage in the video.
Jeff posted 07-20-2011 07:21 PM ET (US)
Oh ya, and doing that with an outboard powered boat is not the smartest thing. I know a few guys around here who do it and they all use inboard powered ski boards or large, wide and heavy twin engine inboards so the props are far from where they "surf"
Jeff posted 07-20-2011 07:23 PM ET (US)
Oh ya, and doing that with an outboard powered boat is not the smartest thing. I know a few guys around here who do it and they all use inboard powered ski boats or large, wide and heavy twin engine inboard powered cruisers so the props are far from where they "surf"
lizard posted 07-20-2011 07:37 PM ET (US)
The main problem is she appears to have a 12 ft. (or so) tow line. Dumb.
We pulled a surfboard a couple of weeks ago with a tube line that was 55 ft. long.
pcrussell50 posted 07-20-2011 08:15 PM ET (US)
Liz, I dont know if you watched the whole video or not, but the idea behind being so close is that is where the steepest and highest part of the breaking wave is, which in turn is how you can drop the rope and continue the ride without it. That's what wake surfing is... surfing... no rope.
I understand that by using an outboard, you greatly enhance the risk. Your life is in the hands of the driver, who has to be very clear in about not stopping if the rider falls, until well clear. I don't condone it, but would still do it myself.
-Peter
afmoto49 posted 07-20-2011 08:38 PM ET (US)
There is no danger to the individual when wakesurfing behind an outboard. The individual is off to the side of the boat - not behind the outboard - and there is no way you can accelerate faster than the boat even when falling down. That said, it's not very smart to do that because there IS a possibility of falling down and launching the board towards the outboard, potentially destroying both the board and the outboard. Anyone who has been on a wakeskate - a wakeboard without the boots - knows you have little control over where the board goes when you fall down.
Wakesurfing is getting quite popular and it's done only a few feet behind the transom. The biggest danger is actually carbon monoxide which can results in drownings.
pcrussell50 posted 07-20-2011 08:55 PM ET (US)
Thanks for that info, 'moto. I've been surfing (regular waves), all my life, but I've never tried this, and as a new boater, it looks like yet another fun thing to do with a boat.
-Peter
Jeff posted 07-20-2011 09:11 PM ET (US)
You can get in to the motor area much easier than you may think while under way. The biggest risk comes from the driver and boarder not communicating. If the driver backs down and the rider is not ready for it, the rider will likely end up on the transom or swim platform.
Here are some images of a friend behind a loaded Wakeboarding boat. Once up you can drop the line and surf outside of the boat's transom. The bigger the boat the better the wake to ride.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v427/jeff_rohlfing/Misc/ 58889_441085749795_517289795_5043711_7406105_n.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v427/jeff_rohlfing/Misc/ 62273_441085669795_517289795_5043707_762758_n.jpg
lizard posted 07-20-2011 11:44 PM ET (US)
There is the additional risk of the activities of other boaters and their wakes in the area. pcrussell, you say you are a pilot. Do you make rash decisions like your posts with your passengers?
I have pulled almost everything behind my boat, but none of it foolishly. This video is sheer stupidity, in every sense of the word. If you want to ride a steep, breaking wave, pick up a surf board and get in the real break.
pcrussell50 posted 07-21-2011 12:09 AM ET (US)
Liz, I don't know what to tell you. Some people size up risk differently than others. We've all been stuck behind another car who's driver is scared to turn right because the opening didn't look big enough, knowing we could and would have gone, ourselves. When I was in private pilot training, spin training and recovery was optional, (it used to be mandatory). Nonetheless, I insisted on it. My instructor was nervous. It was fine. Later, when I became an instructor myself, other nervous instructors used to send me their students who needed or insisted on receiving spin training. I became known for it. These days, spin accidents caused by pilots inadequately trained in spin avoidance and recovery, are disproportionately high. This comes as no surprise to me. It also does not happen to my former students. I claim that I sized up that risk correctly, and that those who opted out, sized it up incorrectly. Risk management is both my vocation and my hobby, (racing cars). My track record, (pun intended), is pretty solid.
I have not yet wake surfed behind an outboard. I'm still sizing up the risk, weighing what I'm reading here against what I already know from (regular wave) surfing since my early teens.
-Peter
afmoto49 posted 07-21-2011 12:44 AM ET (US)
Peter, I roadraced motorcycles for 18 seasons (AFM, AMA Pro, F-USA, etc.) so I know what you mean about risk... but honestly the wake behind an outboard would be a waste of time for wakesurfing. It takes a good size v-drive with a lot of ballast to get a 3-4' decent wake. People don't wakesurf behind an outboard mostly because it's boring, not so much over safety concerns. The biggest risk is not wearing a PFD (CA requires it, other states don't) since wakesurfing still has many of the carbon monoxide poisoning dangers of teak surfing (also illegal in CA). I have wakesurfed a few times behind our MasterCraft skiboat (inboard) and you can definitely smell the fumes when you first get going. I won't let my daughters do it for that reason.
Here's what it's supposed to look like behind a v-drive:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yTgArelIN8&feature=related
andygere posted 07-21-2011 12:48 AM ET (US)
Once the initial novelty wears off, it doesn't look like all that much fun. It's kind of like riding the soup for a really long time. We used to "skurf" on an old shortboard behind my 13 foot Whaler back in the day, but that was a lot more like wakeboarding and not all that much fun either.
Here's how I prefer to do it these days:
http://www.vimeo.com/19153762
JTC posted 07-21-2011 05:42 AM ET (US)

heh - afmoto's video looks like fun! I can get a pretty decent wake on my 28 Conquest if I trim up and push it just under planing speed (12 knots or so). There'd be no danger of falling into the props as the wake is pretty far off to the side, but I wouldn't be able to see over the bow! :)
Sourpuss1 posted 07-21-2011 08:00 AM ET (US)
pcrussell50, lizard,
Risk is up to you! The young person in the video may be under 18, and therefore it could be a parents responsibility.
Once you are an adult, risk is your personal responsibility.
gnr posted 07-21-2011 10:25 AM ET (US)
LOL @ lizzy.
Lizzy,
Do you not understand that our entire civilization was built by the risk takers?
Had the first humans adopted your foolish perspective we wouldn't have made it to a second generation.
LOL
Tom W Clark posted 07-21-2011 10:40 AM ET (US)
Looks like it would be fun for the novice surfer.
Coast Guard Captain, Jim Potdevin, sent me photos from long ago of him and his brother surfing behind their dad's Sportfisher.
He wrote to me:
"My younger brother, Roger, and I used to surf for miles. Could even have a beer while surfing. I got to the point where I could walk to the nose of the board, step on the swim platform of the boat, turn and grab the nose, and get into the boat - all in one motion. It was fun growing up at 20 knots!"
lizard posted 07-21-2011 11:39 AM ET (US)
Andy- nice footage. Are you using a Go Pro and where is is mounted? You appear to have nose and tail shot footage. Nice little breaking rights. Does the kelp affect turning, do you pick it up on the skeg?
andygere posted 07-21-2011 12:22 PM ET (US)
Liz, I shot that video using a GoPro mounted on my paddle shaft. This works great because you can change the angle and perspective while riding the waves. The downside is that it never seems to capture turning very well, perhaps due to the fish-eye lens. In those scenes I was doing a lot of turning, working the wave top to bottom, but it looks like I'm just going straight ahead.
The kelp can be a problem, more so a really low tides. I use a locally designed kelp fin for those sessions, and it sheds the kelp quite well, but has less drive than my 2+1 setup and spins out more easily. Once in a while you get "kelped" which pretty much stops you cold and is a bit like having the rug pulled out from under you.
I'd still rather paddle surf a tiny breaking wave than wakesurf behind a boat. There's really not much turning on a boat wake, and making big turns are a big part of the fun of surfing.
blacksmithdog posted 07-21-2011 12:46 PM ET (US)
We used to do that behind our Montauk. We'd tilt the engine (115 Merc straight 6) out pretty far, get all the people in the back of the boat, and it threw a righteous wake!!!!
lizard posted 07-21-2011 01:02 PM ET (US)
Andy- I wondered if it was paddle mounted, but I discounted that, thinking a paddle mount would have displayed more vibration in the video. Those Go Pros are nice little units. I agree, I think it is much more serene and "at one" with the water on your SUP.
pcrussell50 posted 07-21-2011 01:14 PM ET (US)
As an ocean wave surfer, I can see how it would become boring. However, as a boater always looking for something to do with a boat, it looks like a lark... at least for a while. It also will not cost me any investment in equipment I don't already own.
There's another thing. My wife has always been fascinated by surfing, but afraid of big waves, and not assertive enough to move around in the lineup to get into the right place to catch a wave. Consequently, she has not had enough time on the wave face, to learn the vital stuff about trimming and turning. I can see clearly from the video I posted, that a nice long wave like you get from a boat could be just the ticket for a learner to train those movements into muscle memory.
-Peter
Tom W Clark posted 07-21-2011 01:28 PM ET (US)
It's not a Whaler but the guy on the right is a Whaler owner in this photo from c. 1978:
http://home.comcast.net/~tomwclark/Potdevins_Surfing.jpg
The wake making boat is a 42' Post:
http://home.comcast.net/~tomwclark/42_Post_Surfing.jpg
andygere posted 07-21-2011 04:48 PM ET (US)
@Tom, now that wake might be a bit more interesting to surf. I dig that Potdevin style!
@Peter, good points, and it would be a good way to practice trimming, as the girl in the video demonstrates. When we used to skurf behind my little 13 it was more or less a way to get wet on a hot day when the waves were flat.
Binkster posted 07-21-2011 05:35 PM ET (US)
Come on, that surfing crap went out with the Beach Boys. All it takes is a little balance. My daughters a pilot, sometimes I fly around with her and her friends. Ho hum, boring to me.
BOWLING IS WHERE ITS AT. Takes a lot of skill and balance too. Maybe not much risk though, but I get my adrenaline kick driving my race boat.
jimp posted 07-21-2011 07:04 PM ET (US)
Tom -
Both Whaler owners. Sadly, Roger died in 2005, but left his '86 Montauk with his wife & three kids - they use the living-daylights out of her.
Ideal speed behind the Post was a touch over 14 knots.
JimP
pcrussell50 posted 07-22-2011 01:00 AM ET (US)
As for maximizing the tiny "wave" that my heavyweight*, classic 17 can produce, in addition to the 400lb Merc 90 FourStroke, I also have electric trim tabs and a DoelFin. I'm guessing the DoelFin might be useful because when trimmed way out, but not planing, it might help submerge the back of the boat, like downward dive plane on a submarine. I'm not so sure about the trim tabs though. I suppose I could induce a rolling moment by burying the starboard tab, and raising the port tab, but I'm not sure that would necessarily bias the wave height, since it that rolling moment would not be from weight or vectored thrust.
* My classic is a heavyweight because it is the heavier, special services version of the Montauk, a 17' Alert. In addition to the heavy motor, it is well equipped with weight-adding options like dual batteries.
-Peter

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Author	Topic: Wake surfing Whaler?
pcrussell50	posted 07-20-2011 07:14 PM ET (US) Something about the gunwale and the shape of the windshield of this boat looks a little Whaler'ish. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fl_5X1OOLf0&feature=related Makes me want to try it with my heavy '98 classic 17. I already know I can trim the Merc 90 FourStroke way out on launch, and have the boat plow righteously nose high and slowly, and I can keep it that way. If I had a spotter standing in the port corner, and the trim tabs rigged right, (mine has electric trim tabs), I wonder if I could pull this off? I already own a longboard that I use for surfing small waves anyway. -Peter
Jeff	posted 07-20-2011 07:17 PM ET (US) That is a 21 smooth-sided Outrage in the video.
Jeff	posted 07-20-2011 07:21 PM ET (US) Oh ya, and doing that with an outboard powered boat is not the smartest thing. I know a few guys around here who do it and they all use inboard powered ski boards or large, wide and heavy twin engine inboards so the props are far from where they "surf"
Jeff	posted 07-20-2011 07:23 PM ET (US) Oh ya, and doing that with an outboard powered boat is not the smartest thing. I know a few guys around here who do it and they all use inboard powered ski boats or large, wide and heavy twin engine inboard powered cruisers so the props are far from where they "surf"
lizard	posted 07-20-2011 07:37 PM ET (US) The main problem is she appears to have a 12 ft. (or so) tow line. Dumb. We pulled a surfboard a couple of weeks ago with a tube line that was 55 ft. long.
pcrussell50	posted 07-20-2011 08:15 PM ET (US) Liz, I dont know if you watched the whole video or not, but the idea behind being so close is that is where the steepest and highest part of the breaking wave is, which in turn is how you can drop the rope and continue the ride without it. That's what wake surfing is... surfing... no rope. I understand that by using an outboard, you greatly enhance the risk. Your life is in the hands of the driver, who has to be very clear in about not stopping if the rider falls, until well clear. I don't condone it, but would still do it myself. -Peter
afmoto49	posted 07-20-2011 08:38 PM ET (US) There is no danger to the individual when wakesurfing behind an outboard. The individual is off to the side of the boat - not behind the outboard - and there is no way you can accelerate faster than the boat even when falling down. That said, it's not very smart to do that because there IS a possibility of falling down and launching the board towards the outboard, potentially destroying both the board and the outboard. Anyone who has been on a wakeskate - a wakeboard without the boots - knows you have little control over where the board goes when you fall down. Wakesurfing is getting quite popular and it's done only a few feet behind the transom. The biggest danger is actually carbon monoxide which can results in drownings.
pcrussell50	posted 07-20-2011 08:55 PM ET (US) Thanks for that info, 'moto. I've been surfing (regular waves), all my life, but I've never tried this, and as a new boater, it looks like yet another fun thing to do with a boat. -Peter
Jeff	posted 07-20-2011 09:11 PM ET (US) You can get in to the motor area much easier than you may think while under way. The biggest risk comes from the driver and boarder not communicating. If the driver backs down and the rider is not ready for it, the rider will likely end up on the transom or swim platform. Here are some images of a friend behind a loaded Wakeboarding boat. Once up you can drop the line and surf outside of the boat's transom. The bigger the boat the better the wake to ride. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v427/jeff_rohlfing/Misc/ 58889_441085749795_517289795_5043711_7406105_n.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v427/jeff_rohlfing/Misc/ 62273_441085669795_517289795_5043707_762758_n.jpg
lizard	posted 07-20-2011 11:44 PM ET (US) There is the additional risk of the activities of other boaters and their wakes in the area. pcrussell, you say you are a pilot. Do you make rash decisions like your posts with your passengers? I have pulled almost everything behind my boat, but none of it foolishly. This video is sheer stupidity, in every sense of the word. If you want to ride a steep, breaking wave, pick up a surf board and get in the real break.
pcrussell50	posted 07-21-2011 12:09 AM ET (US) Liz, I don't know what to tell you. Some people size up risk differently than others. We've all been stuck behind another car who's driver is scared to turn right because the opening didn't look big enough, knowing we could and would have gone, ourselves. When I was in private pilot training, spin training and recovery was optional, (it used to be mandatory). Nonetheless, I insisted on it. My instructor was nervous. It was fine. Later, when I became an instructor myself, other nervous instructors used to send me their students who needed or insisted on receiving spin training. I became known for it. These days, spin accidents caused by pilots inadequately trained in spin avoidance and recovery, are disproportionately high. This comes as no surprise to me. It also does not happen to my former students. I claim that I sized up that risk correctly, and that those who opted out, sized it up incorrectly. Risk management is both my vocation and my hobby, (racing cars). My track record, (pun intended), is pretty solid. I have not yet wake surfed behind an outboard. I'm still sizing up the risk, weighing what I'm reading here against what I already know from (regular wave) surfing since my early teens. -Peter
afmoto49	posted 07-21-2011 12:44 AM ET (US) Peter, I roadraced motorcycles for 18 seasons (AFM, AMA Pro, F-USA, etc.) so I know what you mean about risk... but honestly the wake behind an outboard would be a waste of time for wakesurfing. It takes a good size v-drive with a lot of ballast to get a 3-4' decent wake. People don't wakesurf behind an outboard mostly because it's boring, not so much over safety concerns. The biggest risk is not wearing a PFD (CA requires it, other states don't) since wakesurfing still has many of the carbon monoxide poisoning dangers of teak surfing (also illegal in CA). I have wakesurfed a few times behind our MasterCraft skiboat (inboard) and you can definitely smell the fumes when you first get going. I won't let my daughters do it for that reason. Here's what it's supposed to look like behind a v-drive: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yTgArelIN8&feature=related
andygere	posted 07-21-2011 12:48 AM ET (US) Once the initial novelty wears off, it doesn't look like all that much fun. It's kind of like riding the soup for a really long time. We used to "skurf" on an old shortboard behind my 13 foot Whaler back in the day, but that was a lot more like wakeboarding and not all that much fun either. Here's how I prefer to do it these days: http://www.vimeo.com/19153762
JTC	posted 07-21-2011 05:42 AM ET (US) heh - afmoto's video looks like fun! I can get a pretty decent wake on my 28 Conquest if I trim up and push it just under planing speed (12 knots or so). There'd be no danger of falling into the props as the wake is pretty far off to the side, but I wouldn't be able to see over the bow! :)
Sourpuss1	posted 07-21-2011 08:00 AM ET (US) pcrussell50, lizard, Risk is up to you! The young person in the video may be under 18, and therefore it could be a parents responsibility. Once you are an adult, risk is your personal responsibility.
gnr	posted 07-21-2011 10:25 AM ET (US) LOL @ lizzy. Lizzy, Do you not understand that our entire civilization was built by the risk takers? Had the first humans adopted your foolish perspective we wouldn't have made it to a second generation. LOL
Tom W Clark	posted 07-21-2011 10:40 AM ET (US) Looks like it would be fun for the novice surfer. Coast Guard Captain, Jim Potdevin, sent me photos from long ago of him and his brother surfing behind their dad's Sportfisher. He wrote to me: "My younger brother, Roger, and I used to surf for miles. Could even have a beer while surfing. I got to the point where I could walk to the nose of the board, step on the swim platform of the boat, turn and grab the nose, and get into the boat - all in one motion. It was fun growing up at 20 knots!"
lizard	posted 07-21-2011 11:39 AM ET (US) Andy- nice footage. Are you using a Go Pro and where is is mounted? You appear to have nose and tail shot footage. Nice little breaking rights. Does the kelp affect turning, do you pick it up on the skeg?
andygere	posted 07-21-2011 12:22 PM ET (US) Liz, I shot that video using a GoPro mounted on my paddle shaft. This works great because you can change the angle and perspective while riding the waves. The downside is that it never seems to capture turning very well, perhaps due to the fish-eye lens. In those scenes I was doing a lot of turning, working the wave top to bottom, but it looks like I'm just going straight ahead. The kelp can be a problem, more so a really low tides. I use a locally designed kelp fin for those sessions, and it sheds the kelp quite well, but has less drive than my 2+1 setup and spins out more easily. Once in a while you get "kelped" which pretty much stops you cold and is a bit like having the rug pulled out from under you. I'd still rather paddle surf a tiny breaking wave than wakesurf behind a boat. There's really not much turning on a boat wake, and making big turns are a big part of the fun of surfing.
blacksmithdog	posted 07-21-2011 12:46 PM ET (US) We used to do that behind our Montauk. We'd tilt the engine (115 Merc straight 6) out pretty far, get all the people in the back of the boat, and it threw a righteous wake!!!!
lizard	posted 07-21-2011 01:02 PM ET (US) Andy- I wondered if it was paddle mounted, but I discounted that, thinking a paddle mount would have displayed more vibration in the video. Those Go Pros are nice little units. I agree, I think it is much more serene and "at one" with the water on your SUP.
pcrussell50	posted 07-21-2011 01:14 PM ET (US) As an ocean wave surfer, I can see how it would become boring. However, as a boater always looking for something to do with a boat, it looks like a lark... at least for a while. It also will not cost me any investment in equipment I don't already own. There's another thing. My wife has always been fascinated by surfing, but afraid of big waves, and not assertive enough to move around in the lineup to get into the right place to catch a wave. Consequently, she has not had enough time on the wave face, to learn the vital stuff about trimming and turning. I can see clearly from the video I posted, that a nice long wave like you get from a boat could be just the ticket for a learner to train those movements into muscle memory. -Peter
Tom W Clark	posted 07-21-2011 01:28 PM ET (US) It's not a Whaler but the guy on the right is a Whaler owner in this photo from c. 1978: http://home.comcast.net/~tomwclark/Potdevins_Surfing.jpg The wake making boat is a 42' Post: http://home.comcast.net/~tomwclark/42_Post_Surfing.jpg
andygere	posted 07-21-2011 04:48 PM ET (US) @Tom, now that wake might be a bit more interesting to surf. I dig that Potdevin style! @Peter, good points, and it would be a good way to practice trimming, as the girl in the video demonstrates. When we used to skurf behind my little 13 it was more or less a way to get wet on a hot day when the waves were flat.
Binkster	posted 07-21-2011 05:35 PM ET (US) Come on, that surfing crap went out with the Beach Boys. All it takes is a little balance. My daughters a pilot, sometimes I fly around with her and her friends. Ho hum, boring to me. BOWLING IS WHERE ITS AT. Takes a lot of skill and balance too. Maybe not much risk though, but I get my adrenaline kick driving my race boat.
jimp	posted 07-21-2011 07:04 PM ET (US) Tom - Both Whaler owners. Sadly, Roger died in 2005, but left his '86 Montauk with his wife & three kids - they use the living-daylights out of her. Ideal speed behind the Post was a touch over 14 knots. JimP
pcrussell50	posted 07-22-2011 01:00 AM ET (US) As for maximizing the tiny "wave" that my heavyweight, classic 17 can produce, in addition to the 400lb Merc 90 FourStroke, I also have electric trim tabs and a DoelFin. I'm guessing the DoelFin might be useful because when trimmed way out, but not planing, it might help submerge the back of the boat, like downward dive plane on a submarine. I'm not so sure about the trim tabs though. I suppose I could induce a rolling moment by burying the starboard tab, and raising the port tab, but I'm not sure that would necessarily bias the wave height, since it that rolling moment would not be from weight or vectored thrust. My classic is a heavyweight because it is the heavier, special services version of the Montauk, a 17' Alert. In addition to the heavy motor, it is well equipped with weight-adding options like dual batteries. -Peter