posted 08-05-2011 12:16 PM ET (US)            

I tow my commercial Montauk, (heavy), with the heaviest motor you can put on one, (Merc 90hp FourStroke), and luggage for three, for a week, behind a '97 Explorer v6. You can tell it's there... sort of...

I know from reading this forum that having to turn off overdrive going up steep grades is frightening to some, but my wife is fine doing it, (she does 90% of our towing). On the super steep grades, she even slows down to the maximum posted speed limit for towing. It doesn't seem to bother her... or me, as a passenger.

I'm sure a nice big diesel truck would make my load virtually unnoticeable back there. I just can't justify the cost, for something I will almost never drive, unless towing. I probably wouldn't even use it for short hauls down to the harbor because my '86 Nissan Stanza (4-banger econobox), is so quick and easy to hitch up for sort, in-town tows.

In one of the great towing threads a couple of months ago, some very insightful cww member made a great post about towing, and how hugely subjective the towing experience is, from one person to another.

posted 08-05-2011 01:46 PM ET (US)            

I will stand on my statement about the cost to own a diesel pick-up. They are much more expensive to operate than the equally comparable gasoline powered pick-up. Reliability is a whole another issue. Most truck forums are full of complaints about the diesel powered pick-ups. If I bought one it would be the Duramax.

I have driven GM most of my life. I now own a newer Tundra that will flat pull well up to it's 10,500 pound rating. My fathers 7.3 Power Stroke can not do as well as this Tundra up to that weight. Beyond that weight is another story.

The diesel prices were elevated due to the ultra low sulfur EPA requirements. These requirements forced the oil industry to build new process units (DDU's) to remove this sulfur from the diesel.

posted 08-05-2011 02:48 PM ET (US)            

You are right about the stay on subject comment. Sorry to dampen your diesel thread.

posted 08-05-2011 03:03 PM ET (US)            

For instance Chevrolet 2500HD offers 2 choices of powertrains in their 2010 2500HD pick-ups; one 6.0L gasoline engine and a 6.6L diesel engine. The 6.0L gasoline produces 360 HP and the diesel 365 HP-pretty close. But to understand the difference in towing capacity, you need to look at the torque of the respective engines. The 6.0L gasoline produces 380 ft-lbs of torque; the 6.6L diesel 660 ft-lbs or torque. That represents 80% more torque, and translates into vastly superior towing capacity and how the truck drives and behaves when under load. Even geared low, say 4.10:1, the gasoline engine will not compete with the comparably sized diesel.

posted 08-05-2011 03:12 PM ET (US)            

Have any of you ever owned a diesel?

1)My Liberty was $2400 option but it included aluminum wheels, 5spd Auto, and additional oil cooler. Not much more than gas...maybe $1200 or so for just the engine.

2)The ONLY thing I have replaced on my engine has been a glow plug and 4 EGR valves. Obviously "my" truck had some issue with the EGR valves and all have been covered under warranty even though I am out of warranty for 2 years. Nothing else, not even a hiccup. Stereo and window regulators are another story but has nothing to do with my engine.

3)Cost of fuel is not always an argument. Sometimes it is cheaper than regular sometimes a few pennies more than super but on average about the same as midgrade. Considering I get 100 more ft lbs of torque and 10 more miles to the gallon on the highway and my city is equiv. to the gas's highway mileage...who cares that I can't run regular unleaded...neither can my Harley or both of my Mercedes.

4)Minimal maintenance, no plugs, no wires, no tune-ups, no nothing. You change the oil, filters, and that is about it which you have to do on a gas engine as well. Sure the 6.0 Ford has had some major problems with the EGR and head gaskets but once fixed...no more problem. The ford also does not pertain to other engines such as Mercedes, Dodge, GM, etc.

5)Although this was not mentioned...my Liberty is still worth about 45+% of its cost after 6 years and 62k miles because it is a limited production truck and people want it. That price might drop if gas went back to $2/gal but for now(and the last 3-4 years it has paid off.

I have also owned a Jetta diesel and we can talk about the pros and cons of that over gas but she fetched 48-50mpg and with it chipped it did just as fast as the gasser...nuff said!

Diesel trucks are not for everyone mainly because I don't want to drive around in a 7k+ pound truck that is 20' long everyday but if I did buy a 3/4 or 1 ton, no question. The only way you will see me get rid of my Liberty is when somebody comes out with a small/midsize 4 door pickup...I really could use the bed over having an SUV.

posted 08-05-2011 05:59 PM ET (US)            

The only real downside was soot on the boat and fiver.

posted 08-05-2011 07:45 PM ET (US)            

That said, if money were no object, we'd have a mansion with more garage space than we need, where we'd put a nice expensive diesel pickup. And if we only drove it once or twice a year, we wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

posted 08-05-2011 08:18 PM ET (US)            

http://www.toyota-europe.com/cars/new_cars/hilux/specs.aspx

posted 08-05-2011 08:31 PM ET (US)            

quote:

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Lake, interesting what your friends at Ford told you about putting small diesels in small trucks. In the rest of the world, they are offered. When I lived in Australia and New Zealand, we saw them all the time in small trucks, (Ranger-sized), like the Toyota Hilux. We occasionally have one at our disposal for our orphanage in Nigeria as well. It's pretty crude, and small, but super capable.

-Peter

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Yep. That's the Hilux I mentioned a few posts above. I was always mystified as why they don't have them here.

posted 08-05-2011 08:35 PM ET (US)            

This would crush the sales of US made trunks in America.

Warren

posted 08-06-2011 04:09 AM ET (US)            

One of your reasons whey diesels are better

quote:

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towing fatigue

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and

Why you didn't like this gasoline truck

quote:

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the largest Vortec V8 engine offered, and every whistle and bell available and once again it was towing misery

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and

More complaints about the same gasoline truck

quote:

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It was truly an exhausting experience.

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and

More of what you like about diesels in your own words

quote:

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With the diesel, get up to speed, leave it in overdrive, slap it in cruise control and you only have to remember that you are towing something.

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You told us things are important to you for towing. And you told us that not having these things causes you, "towing misery" (your own words), and a "truly exhausting experience" (your own words). Is it an attack if the same things that exhaust you and cause you misery do not exhaust and cause misery to my wife (or me)? Throw me a line, here mate. What am I missing?

posted 08-06-2011 05:15 AM ET (US)            

quote:

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Some people also need to accept that the bad part of the combination may not be the tow vehicle or the trailer. It might be the driver. If you've never towed anything before it can be nerve wracking. You might need practice. On the other hand some people may not be cut out to tow ever.

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Very, VERY poignant, IMHO. And it fits my observation of people who tow.

posted 08-06-2011 12:13 PM ET (US)            

Find us a couple of those Hilux here in CA and I will buy them all ;-)

Now for my Big Tow Vehicle, I have a 6.8l V10 F250 4x4. With the current modifications, it has just over 500lb of torque and gets about 7mpg towing anyting. I could have a postage stamp or a 28 Conquest behind it and you would be hard pressed to tell if anything is there at all....I bet if I tried and it had enough power to drive up the ramps, I could get my 1979 Ford Courier in the bed of the that truck...

Diesels are nice, I run two of them (13L twin trubo) in my 54' Catamaran. At the gears, they are about 880hp each and burn 25gph at 2000rpms. Now if I could only get them in my '79 Courier ;-0

IMHO, tow with what you like and enjoy what you tow. Like my Harley buddies say, "it is not what you ride, but that you ride"

posted 08-06-2011 04:41 PM ET (US)            

If you like, fly into SFO or Oakland and I will get you some salmon and send you back South with a nice V10 at a reasonable price ;-) We could probably put our 17's in the back of the crew-cab and bed and still have room for the ice chests!

posted 08-07-2011 10:35 AM ET (US)            

I just towed my 19 Outrage on a new Ezloader tandem axle trailer going 75 mph I got 14.9 mpg. The best thing about a diesel is that it rarely has to strain and rarely has to down shift for a hill or to pass!

I rented a V8 Chevy Tahoe the week before I picked up my new X5 and it was unbelievably slow with very little towing power. In addition I was only able to get 10 mpg while towing my 19 Outrage. It is much more tiring to drive the Tahoe because it frequently has to downshift and rev up to go up little hills.

I will never go back to a GAS engine tow vehicle.

posted 08-07-2011 10:38 AM ET (US)            

Between the oil companies, car makers and our government we have not been given the choice of fuel efficient high MPG automobiles others in the world have had. Hopefully here in the states that will change soon. I know we have the technology to build these vehicles if we can put someone on the moon and get them home safe.

That 1984 Isuzu diesel pick-up I had that got 37 MPG, if I could buy a new one just like it today I would buy it. It hauled just about anything I needed to haul and pulled a boat the size of a Montauk without a problem. It was not fast like these hot rodded diesels of today but got you where you needed to go.

This has been a good thread.

posted 08-07-2011 01:17 PM ET (US)            

This discussion has been around 3 different diesel vehicle subjects, big pick-up, small pick-ups and cars/SUVs. It is difficult to compare them because they are not equal and have different purposes.

My wish list would be a 1/2 ton pick-up that was capable of towing 5 to 6,000 pounds and got in the 30 to 40 MPG range.

posted 08-07-2011 04:45 PM ET (US)            

Am I reading your post correctly, that you tow your 22 Outrage, DAILY?   What an enviable life you have my friend.   

I have to take add a little illumination to your, "Good job, America". quote.  I would be too... if American car companies built cars for enthusiasts, instead of window dressing for poseurs.   In reality, I don't fault the makers.  They build cars for the people.  So the real problem with American cars, is American people.  We are satisfied with automatic transmissions and fake plastic body kits, with none of the real-deal goodies underneath. No wonder we build good trucks here.  We do heavy, slow, and numb like nobody else in the world.  And we seem to treasure those traits.  No wonder we are able to tolerate trucks so well in daily driving/non-towing use.

The day Chevy makes it's bottom of the barrel, midsize family sedan with rear wheel drive, manual transmission, 50/50 weight distribution, and the battery in the trunk, come back and talk to me.   BMW does.  And I'm not talking about their overpriced ///M models.  I'm talking on their cheap small-engine, steel wheel, everyman models that they sell in Europe, (and not here).  So does Benz.  Because Europeans give a crap about stuff that makes a car real. Unfortunately for me as an American, so do I.  Only my people won't give it to me.   Do I sound frustrated?  I am.  Because I'm immensely patriotic, and it saddens me to watch us voluntarily, even happily, accept crap sandwiches. 

On a boating note, aren't my favorite new outboards, Evinrude E-TEC motors either French or Canadian?  (I could be wrong about that).

posted 08-08-2011 01:04 AM ET (US)            

And for what it's worth, Vipers and Corvettes ARE fabulous track cars, (for the 1 in a 1000) that take them out on race track. I just wish their engineers would have more say in the design of the garden variety sedans.

posted 08-08-2011 02:27 AM ET (US)            

Sure, diesel is nice but getting a trailer rolling can happen easily with many different power option...the trick is getting them stopped, under control.
ABS brakes and some of the newer high tech trailer brake switches do a great job compared to the old school stuff.

posted 08-08-2011 03:16 PM ET (US)            

How was your day on the water after effortlessly towing over there with your diesel? Where exactly did you effortlessly tow to, arriving with absolutely NO towing fatigue? How about kid fatigue? That truck is about two time zones long, so you probably didn't experience any of that either!

Just admit that you're going to put a hitch on the MGB and all will be well here.

posted 08-08-2011 03:28 PM ET (US)            

I assume that you remember that I used to tow my Hobie Cat with the MGB many moons ago!