posted 05-19-2012 09:55 AM ET (US)         

Get swamped and then I reckon you're in big trouble. So far I have felt more comfortable in boats, one or two shorther than the classic 17, with significantly higher transoms + gunwales + large beam, even though they are sinkable.
I feel it's about not getting swamped.

Maybe these guys snagged a pot or anchor and tried to drag it out under power and pulled the stern or bow under. With low freeboard + some short chop I don't think it would take too much to cop a dangerous amount of water onboard. (i.e. enough to gravely affect lateral stability). Unsinkability doesn't necessarily matter that much then.

No anchor, lobster pot or crab trap is worth a capsize, from which we have such tragedies.

It's so easy to take trips out for granted - but things can go so horribly wrong - it's easy to die/lose crew in calm water too.

Bless their familes,

posted 05-19-2012 12:08 PM ET (US)            

You seem uncomfortable with a low freeboard boat. Perhaps a classic Whaler is not for you.

posted 05-19-2012 04:54 PM ET (US)            

Been there, done that: Two guys hauling a 40 pound fish over the rail while a freediver in the water was holding onto the gunwale from the water = immediate capsize.

'Tauks are seaworthy boats, but need to be handled with skill. They can handle almost anything... in the hands of a capable operator.

Anyone who thinks they can hang on the engine of a capsized boat in a seaway ought to try it sometime. It's a damned dangerous place to be when it's rough.

Dave

.

posted 05-19-2012 10:04 PM ET (US)            

(Been there, done that: Two guys hauling a 40 pound fish over the rail while a freediver in the water was holding onto the gunwale from the water = immediate capsize.)

Are you sure? I never tarpon fished with supermen, but more than a few 80-100lb tarpon have been hauled over the gunwale of my 13 footer by one average size male, back in the eighties, when that was my hobby. I know folks are a lot heavier nowadays but it takes two fatties to haul a 40 pounder aboard? And what has the freediver have to do with it, He's only holding on and treading water.
Please elaborate. Must have been a funny site though.

posted 05-19-2012 10:24 PM ET (US)         

Anyone who thinks they can hang on the engine of a capsized boat in a seaway ought to try it sometime"

Rich, it's not clear to me why or how this tragedy occurred - whether it relates to freeboard or not - however it is a tragedy indeed. I have heard of numerous tragedies by the manner you describe, where people try to lift a snagged anchor. With nearly 30 years on the water I have tried to drag snagged anchors free (using the method you describe, progressively shortening the anchor line, but off the bow, not stern) and only in relatvely calm conditions, with easing on the throttle done very gently. (and backing off when it looks like it's not going to succeed). It is definitely not something I would recommend though - each skipper has to make his own decision. I have taken the decision to cut free snagged anchors a few times - this is never a nice decision to make but in the cirumstances I was in I felt it was safer. I would never try to raise/unsnag an anchor or trap by using the stern in any way - whether the vessel is a 15, 17, or 21, Whaler or otherwise. There are other ways to reduce the chances of losing an anchor (which I will not raise here) - just as there are many ways to skin a cat.

Regardless of how much (or little) skill, common sense and experience we may have, when accidents happen they can happen quickly and tend to catch us by suprise. There is always something to learn from others & from the sea.

Again it is another sad story of the loss of more boating folk, condolences to their families.

posted 05-19-2012 10:44 PM ET (US)            

The buoy was always approached upwind. As the line was made up to the puller, the boat would always face the wind. While the capstan head was engaged , the boat set at about a 20 to 30 degree angle, but with the bow into the wind- always. Even in rough weather, this always felt safe, though sometimes water would be shipped over the bow.

If a puller was rigged aft of midship, I can see how classic 17 could ship water. If it was a big roller, and the puller was engaged with a heavy pot, I can see how a 17 could roll, pretty easily, especially with too many people on the same side of the boat.

My Outrage 22 is currently set up to have my puller rigged at the aft, port side flush rod holder location. I could not come up with a clean mounting set up in the bow like I had in my Sakonnet. I will definately be vigilant of a situation like that in the future.

A terrible tragedy that no one should have to experience.

posted 05-20-2012 08:37 AM ET (US)            

When the boat is turtled, you have no lifeline, what else can you hang on too. The survivor of the football players boat overturning and drowning hung on for two days.
(article and picture of survivor clinging to lower unit below)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/04/ survivor-nick-schuyler-sp_n_171878.html

posted 05-20-2012 08:48 AM ET (US)            

Rich,

I am regularly amazed that you continue to write things here that are only framed within your own limited worldview. Not everywhere in the world is like your tropical backyard.

We were hauling in a 40 pound striper in the edge of "The Race", a spot at the entrance to LI Sound, which if you did a little research you would know is a place with very dangerous rips and standing waves over the reef that often reach 5 feet. We free-drift divers thru there for bass, and pick them up on the other side of the race. Remember that when you pick up a diver, you need to be in neutral.. you have only a few seconds before a 'Tauk will turn beam to the seas. Add to that the fact that the diver in the water is trying to control a 40 pound fish that has not given up yet and things can get tense. Generally the diver shows the tip of his gun to the boat driver to indicate "no fish" as a pickup signal, and the butt of the gun to indicate "fish on" as he fights the fish, which will be at the end of a 100 foot kevlar line (less line may naturally be out too, but the reel-lines are 100 feet long). The way the fish are boated is for the diver to hand the gun into the boat, and then hand-line the fish to the surface, while the boat driver takes up the line onto the gun reel from the boat. When all is said and done, there is a diver in the water with a struggling fish in his hands, and a boat laying broadside to the sea next to him. The diver usually grabs the gunwale with one hand and hoists the fish over into the boat, which if you have ever tried it will roll a 'Tauk at least 20 degrees. If it's a big fish, the boat driver will often reach over to assist, which can roll the boat another ten degrees or so. Add all of that to low freeboard and then let the boat drift into another standing wave and you can easially fill the boat with water. On this day we had "one more guy" who was learning the sport, and he tried to be "way too helpful" and joined the boat driver to help get the fish in (rather than going to the opposite rail to counterbalance). First standing wave filled the boat... second wave capsized her onto the diver.

This was an unusual case, but shows that skill (or lack of it) and coordination between crew members (or lack of it) can have real outcomes on the water. We routinely flood 'Tauks to the gunwales with water fishing here: We run the boat hard to slosh the majority of the water over the transom and let the 5000 GPH pump (yes, 5 THOUSAND gallon per hour pump) pump out the rest. What we do is world class spearfishing, and yes... it's dangerous.

The end of the story is that we lost all of the gear, swam with the boat for a while (all were in wetsuits, as is the norm), hung onto the tagline from the transom and tried to stay AS FAR AWAY AS~POSSIBLE frome the engine, which would have impaled and killed anyone trying to climb on it, and waited for help. We were picked up, with the assistance of the other boat we were able to right the 'Tauk, pump her dry, and amazingly we were able to restart her and run her under escort to the beach. New wiring, etc... and she is as good as new. But if you think for one moment that you can hang onto the outboard in any sea conditions that you will have capsized one of these in, you are crazy.

If you want to try it, you can come on up and show us how it can be done better.

Dave

.

posted 05-20-2012 09:28 PM ET (US)            

I don't think any of us when we are 72 could hold on for long at that age in those conditions.

posted 05-21-2012 05:42 AM ET (US)            

One of the best features of the auto-inflation style vests is that you will tend to wear them. No vest is going to help you if you don't have it on and the bulkier types tend to be left in the locker.

posted 05-21-2012 07:13 AM ET (US)         

Your description of "The Race" complete with dangerous rips, standing waves etc and how quickly a boat in neutral (eg when picking up a diver or taking the leader on a big fish eg.marlin) can turn beam on to the seas is for mine right on the money. I've never been there (but I can imagine it from your description and from my own experiences in rough water) and it is the sort of place I would definitely want to avoid (if I had the chance too). I'm not as adventurous or game (or possibly as skilled as you in boat handling).

The first wave flooding the boat and the second causing the capsize....it sounds like the diver it flipped on was very lucky not to get hurt. And that everyone survived too.

I'm sure I would feel very disconcerted with a flooded boat - especially in those conditions - even if I could run a lot over the transom and have a huge capacity bilge pump.....

As to hanging on to an upturned motor in seas rough or closely spaced enough to flip a Montauk, I would think that virtually impossible. Just keeping one's head above water (even with a lifejacket that keeps your head above water) and maintaining a sense of orientation in between chop/swells would be a battle. I am not a good swimmer but I think such conditions would pose real challenges even for good swimmers. Swimming in a pool is totally different from in open and choppy waters...

I sure as hell hope I never have to be in this situation and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

I reckon your point about coordination (or lack of) of crew members was very important - especially on small boats. I have always found it a pleasure to fish/boat with a good crew who have interchangeable skills etc etc. This also considerably increases safety margins + enjoyment on the water.

posted 05-21-2012 07:34 AM ET (US)         

Dave's situation of having to be in neutral briefly (to pick up divers) reminded me once of having a marlin boatside (many years back) in building seas. I was on the helm and had to slip her into neutral briefly, and leave the helm to assist a mate with the leader (no one else was on board), while the fish was arcing around the stern of the vessel, at risk of getting snagged/cut off on the prop. In the wind and chop, it was very difficult to control the boat while in neutral, even for only a few seconds. I kept having to return to the helm very quickly as we had lost steerage. I was never able to get a decent chance at tracing that fish. As it turned out, the fish (which was tiring) spat the hook and swam off to fight another day. If we had another crew member (which we normally did have - dont you just hate Murphy's law)), I would have remained on the helm, in gear etc if possible and we most likely would have landed that fish.

The lesson learned for me in this instance is twofold: 1. how quickly steerage is lost and how easily one can become beam on to bad seas & 2. the value of having experienced crew. There are literally only a few seconds in some conditions before you get beam on - that's how I relate to Dave's situation.

posted 05-21-2012 09:40 AM ET (US)            

It seems we have both "seen the elephant" so to speak. You need to "be there" a few times to even be able to discuss it.

'Tauk's are darned seaworthy boats. You *can* go almost anywhere with one... as long as you keep them aimed into the seas. Surfing them thru the breachway in 8 foot rollers(inlet to anyone not from Rhode Island) in a following sea, putting out to sea thru the same breachway, running them thru areas of standing waves and rips, etc... all can be done with skill. But make a mistake and you're just another chip in the whirlpool.

My guess is that most owners use these within about 25% of the *boats* capability. That may represent 80% of the *owners* capability though.

The real fact is that not very many people have gained the experience needed to go into bad water with small boats. Some have... most have not. It takes many years of graduated experiences and a lot of small mistakes made, and likely a few bad mistakes barely survived to make a skilled bad water boater. As for what we do, I really don't think we are doing anything too extreme here: As long as we have squared away people aboard, the boat is not even breathing hard. We PLAN to ship a hundred gallons of water into the boat when we fish, it's just part of the sport.

Dave

posted 05-21-2012 09:47 AM ET (US)            

Not so: They use a 'pill' that dissolves in water and releases the striker. What you are thinking of is the hydrostatic release that releases a life raft from a sinking vessel.

The auto-inflates work great as long as you keep them (fairly) dry: What we have found in the 'Tauk (and in my Zodiac) is that we get inadvertant inflations at times, as we are often water-soaked. That's small stuff compared to the penalty for hitting your head on the way overboard and drowning because you cannot inflate manually.

When spearfishing, we have all hands in wetsuits, even if they do not plan to dive, both for buoyancy and for immersion exposure.

Dave

.

posted 05-21-2012 10:18 AM ET (US)            

Auto inflate or manual inflate, either way these PFDs are designed to be used only by very competent swimmers.

Never put a weak or non-swimmer this type of PFD.

If everything works perfectly they will probably be OK, but if anything malfunctions the victim is not a good enough swimmer to deal with the PFD and keep themselves above the surface.

posted 05-21-2012 12:17 PM ET (US)            

A couple of years ago auto-inflatable vests were introduced that work with hydrostatic pressure. They are more expensive but eliminate the possibility of an inadvertent inflation due to undesired water encroachment to the dissolve-able "pill", as you call it. Here is a link to one:

[urlhttp://www.mustangsurvival.com/recreational/hit%E2%84%A2-inflatable-pfd[/url]

For those operating in cold water be sure to get one with a lifting "D" ring.

6992whaler,

Please provide some supportive evidence for you statement below, I have never seen this design criteria or recommendation before:

posted 05-21-2012 01:37 PM ET (US)            

Thank You!

Methinks you just cost me money...

The lifting ring comment is right on: We always insist on them. The SOSuspenders I carry now aboard also have crotch straps so you do not slip thru the vest if you become too weak to hold it on.

Dave

posted 05-21-2012 02:38 PM ET (US)            

"Not recommended for non-swimmers or weak swimmers"

If I had the motivation I am sure I could look up some other sources to support my statement.

Doing a training with the local water patrol we had one deputy jump in the water and his vest did not inflate. Apparently he did not go deep enough to set off the Hydrostatic valve. When he jumped in the second time the vest inflated.

posted 05-21-2012 02:50 PM ET (US)            

These really are special use PFD, they are not meant for kids, they do not count as a PFDs for required equipment unless they are actually being worn.

posted 05-21-2012 03:59 PM ET (US)            

We can agree to disagree on the following:

1. Inflatable vests are not "designed" to preclude anyone who can get a proper fit, swimmer or non-swimmer, size of the person, makes no difference.
2. I enjoyed your comment that "they do not count as a PFDs for required equipment unless they are actually being worn". I suggest that having an inherently buoyant vest that is not worn may not help you much either.
3. Inflatable vests are designed to be a suitable replacement for inherently buoyant vests. In fact they have 25% to 35% more buoyancy than same class inherently buoyant vests.
4. You need to do proper maintenance and inspection to make sure the auto-inflate mechanism is "armed and ready". Since the hydrostatic type of mechanism is designed to trigger in 4" of water depth, immersion depth should not be a factor.

My main purpose in this long response is that I wouldn't want other boaters to eliminate an inflatable vest because they thought they were only for strong swimmers. At least we can agree that wearing a vest of any type is far better than just having it on board.

posted 05-21-2012 07:30 PM ET (US)            

Mustang apparently did not feel they needed to include this warning on any of their non inflatable life jackets. At least I could not find any such warning on there web site.

posted 05-23-2012 07:24 AM ET (US)         

Yeah, the elephant is a big one - you and I both know we have been there - I have experienced it a fair few times......I'm not ashamed to say I didn't feel great looking UP at water in front and behind, hardly a boat length apart. (every small boater's nightmare I think)

Thanks for your comments/description of the seaworthiness of the classic Montauk (I'm relatively new to mine - but I'm very impressed with her so far). ((The tracking, especially when running up behind a yacht and then overtaking them at a shallow tangent (ie almost parallel) off their wake, without any hint of broaching/slewing unnervingly off line - says a lot to me)). I have only driven mine a few hours - but that was more than enough to have a good sense of her general seaworthiness - basically very seaworthy in my estimate - with skill, experince, and care of course.

Your point that most people are not experienced in bad conditions is IMO also absolutely right on. It is hard to get that experience. What I have learned re boat handling techniques in rough weather comes firstly from being out with others (generous enough to impart their knowledge) and then having been caught offshore numerous times in unforcasted and unforseen weather. If you spend a fair bit of time offshore, close or far, you will get caught out in bad conditions - no matter what the forecast. It pays to be ready for that. At least I knew the fundamental principles of smal boat handling and put them into practice - and got home. Knowledge truly is power.

It is hard to get the chance to learn, practise & gain genuine experience in such conditions - as most boaters don't plan on getting out in them ..............a course (eg Coast Guard) in the principles of boat handling in rough weather would be good for all who plan on going "outside" (in the ocean, either sometimes or often). Then, when confronted with bad conditions (even for the first time), at least small boat skippers have an idea of what to do.

Dom

posted 05-23-2012 11:06 PM ET (US)            

"The other mechanism uses the pressure of the water immersion to release the pin."

Also, it is not Alka Seltzer that is used, it is a generic baby aspiring, according to the staff at West Marine.

6992Whaler- it is NOT a Mustang designation about the need to "wear the vest to have it count" that is a USCG requirement for labeling and use.

I can tell you this, once we went to inflatable vests, NO ONE balked about wearing one. Low profile, light, thinner, no bulk AND greater greater lbs. of buoyancy.

posted 05-24-2012 10:40 AM ET (US)            

"6992Whaler- it is NOT a Mustang designation about the need to "wear the vest to have it count" that is a USCG requirement for labeling and use."

When did I say Mustang had the power to write rules and regulations? Of course that is a Cost Guard regulation.

"I can tell you this, once we went to inflatable vests, NO ONE balked about wearing one. Low profile, light, thinner, no bulk AND greater greater lbs. of buoyancy."

posted 05-24-2012 01:27 PM ET (US)            

Tony

posted 05-24-2012 02:26 PM ET (US)            

My PFD which will get tested this weekend and recharged. It's been two years since the last test/recharge.

Lizard, there is a baby asprin under the word "Lot" for comparison to what dissolves to charge my PFD.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d137/jmartin-/DSCF0151.jpg

posted 05-24-2012 11:49 PM ET (US)            

I will steal your paraphase, for something I heard a GAZILLION times in my trauma center days, by a highway patrol cop-

"I have never unbuckled a dead man". Well the fact is, they do. We have a burn unit full of people in seatbelts. Every other passenger in the car died because they were ejected. Frankly, I think ejection death is far better than surviving 3rd degree burns on 87% of your body.

posted 05-25-2012 09:10 AM ET (US)         

You resisted the urge to turn this thread into yet another of your soapboxes for almost an entire week. In the end though, you didn't let us down, as can be expected.

As can be expected you didn't own up to being called out on your complete misunderstanding of another member's comments and the subsequent lecture you gave that member. Once again not letting us down.

Comparing Connecticut to New Hampshire? Really?

posted 05-25-2012 02:01 PM ET (US)            

So I am OK not wearing them in my 13 footer with a top speed of about 29mph. What a relief.

Also, Liz, if you were to take a cruise on a cruise ship, would you bring your inflatable life jacket along, and wear it when your ship is underway. Would like a truthful answer, I don't think you would, even though the recent cruise ship sinkings/crashes have shown us it could be somewhat dangerous. I think you would submit to peer pressure, from other passengers.

posted 05-25-2012 02:46 PM ET (US)            

Yet military pilots do it all the time: You ever try to swim with steel toe leather boots, flightsuit, winter underwear, helmet, survival vest (all 50 pounds of it), and all of the other crap that we wear? Added to all of that is a LPU, or "Life Preserver Unit", which is... (drumroll please) nothing but a glorified inflatable vest, and not hugely different than the better quality ones available at your local West Marine.

I've floated with all of that crap on for a few hours once a year in training since I was a pup... and they always work. And let me tell you... they make us swim for a minute before we are allowed to inflate them, and you do NOT want to try treading water without one for long.

I wonder sometimes if people check their intellect in at the door here at times. What a recitation of nonsense above. Inflatables are "work jackets": They are not designed for long term at-sea survival, they are intended to be of benefit and to be worn continuously without interfering with crew duties. They are not a Type 1 offshore PFD. But they WILL save your ass far better than a doggie-paddle after you fall overboard one day. The best lifejacket is the one you have on at the moment. Inflatables are a very good bridge between nothing and a jacket that you simply cannot wear and work in.

The "since it's not perfect I'm not gonna wear it at all" routine is just stupid noise. And I think we can all tell the difference between a cruise ship and a low freeboard skiff. All things need to be done with a good solid dose of common sense. Sadly... it's not that common.

Dave

posted 05-25-2012 03:06 PM ET (US)            

quote:

---

I wonder sometimes if people check their intellect in at the door here at times.

---

posted 05-25-2012 03:38 PM ET (US)            

If you practice using one every year and have to be able to tread water for a minute fully clothed and then some. You are a competent swimmer who is trained to use this a piece of equipment.

My concern is that we hand a guest on our boat an inflatable vest and say this is your lifejacket. The guest has no idea how to use it, may not be a good swimmer, but now they are safe because they have this inflatable PFD on. Then something goes wrong and they find themselves in the water. They have to treat water while they overcome the urge to panic and they have to figure out where the rip cord is and how to pull it. I think this person would have been a lot safer if we had put them in a traditional lifejacket.

Let's be honest how many of us have pulled the ripcord and tested our PFD in the water. I know I am to cheap to waist the cartridge. How many of us have followed the 2 pages of maintenance every year that goes along with these PFDs. They just are not as simple as a standard PFD.

I love mine, but I do not hand it to anyone I do not trust in the water. And trust me I do not trust many people in the water.

So again let me say that I think it is great that more people are wearing PFDs because of the inflatable option, but they should not be used by everyone.

posted 05-25-2012 04:16 PM ET (US)            

I can't disagree. Then again, I've never invited Grandma to go out into the white water of The Race... For that I have a 42 foot Grand Banks... ;-)

Come to think of it, I've never had incompetent swimmers aboard the 'Tauk. It's not a boat that lends itself (in my use) to casual sightseeing by noobs who don't have previous boating & diving experience. Anyone who looks for a seat rather than naturally knowing to stand next to me with their knees bent isn't a 'Tauk-Ride candidate.

Dave

.

posted 05-25-2012 04:56 PM ET (US)            

After all, this planet is getting awfully crowded.

Now, the people who are really doing society a bit of a favor are those sport bike folks who ride super-aggressively on curvy two lane roads on weekends. Such a great source of organ donors....

posted 05-26-2012 12:43 AM ET (US)            

I disagree that poor swimmers are not candidates for auto inflate PFDs. They AUTO INFLATE. For the manual inflate PFDs, I always show the people wearing them the BRIGHT YELLOW, LARGE pull tag.

A conventional PFD does NOT keep your head out of the water the way any inflatable PFD does. Inflatables have higher buoyancy ratings and right your head better than conventional PFDs.

I am mystified every time this topic surfaces. If you simply look at CG statistics, nearly every, non-traumatic, boating death involves the absence of a PFD. How much more information do you need?

If you are too cheap to re-arm your auto inflate PFD every two years, for $29, I don't want to be on your boat. Cheapskate=numbskull. What other corners do you cut?

posted 05-26-2012 02:59 AM ET (US)            

The truth is no one spends much time worried about the risks, or we just wouldn't do it. The reasons are many, but it is not because we are "cocky" or brave, that we choose to go naked while fishing, It is because we don't want to wear a PFD, period. I am an adult, it is my choice, NO?
This entire thread is just like a gear thread on motorcycle forums.
A few people always seem to call people who don't want to wear the gear, names and yet it only makes the know it all's seem like they "just don't understand human nature."
When anyone rants about wearing helmets/PFD's or condoms, we learn that we just don't like being told what to do, especially by this person that now we just don't like. Causing an end of any worthwhile discussion.

How about we let people live the way they choose and risk it all, if they choose to? It is after all their hind ends. Their boats occupants are either at the mercy or the will of the captain anyway, what business is it of anyone else's, anyhow?
The Coast Guard and our laws already have laws and rules that cover all of these things. We sure don't want more restrictive laws, do we? There is already a law that says if you don't follow these laws and rules, you will pay.

posted 05-26-2012 08:38 AM ET (US)            

Right On.

Which is why in my "Wanna go Boating?" grab-bag, I have my own inflatable PFD that goes on if I feel it's needed, as well as (sunsceen, hat, sunglasses, sweatshirt, long sleeve T shirt, foul weather jacket, snickers bar, and a few bottles of water). If it's cold I bring my Float Coat.

The PFD is one with a lift ring and crotch straps. On it is a McMurdo Fastfind PLB, a strobe, and a knife. I would use it LONG before I would put on the $14.95 Walmart Type II PFD's that are usually found on small boats.

Dave

.

posted 05-26-2012 08:40 AM ET (US)         

Are you sure about that lizzy?

Just so happens it is time for me to replace a couple of my pfd's. I just looked at every inflatable vest on the Mustang website and the highest rated inflatable I saw was a Type II with most of them being type III. Some were type V with either type II or type III capabilities.

More evidence that you really don't know what the hell you are talking about more often than not.

You do realize that you have called every member of this forum who has posted a picture of themselves and their friends, wives, relatives etc "cocky, Darwin want to be's, not thinking, educated people. They are evolutionary discards."

Do you not see the incredible irony in that?

This coming from someone who doesn't possess the most fundamental level of common sense which would allow her to realize that a foam filled container full or air (ie a cooler) might just be a valuable aid to floatation in an emergency situation.

Lizzy, You are all the proof necessary to illustrate that education does not equal intelligence. I would never step foot on any boat with you at the helm simply because you just don't get "it". All the safety precautions in the world can't always overcome a complete lack of understanding and common sense.

Sincerely, an evolutionary discard.

posted 05-26-2012 09:43 AM ET (US)            

They definately vary in capability, but by definition none will be "rated" as Type I, although they might do the same job as far as an unconcious person is concerned.

There is a huge difference between something like this, and the basic cheapie that you buy at West Marine:

http://www.landfallnavigation.com/bodyharness.html

BTW, I don't consider Mustang to be the end-all in this category of device.

Social Comment:

What ever happened to polite civility, as well as common sense? There's a huge difference between a sunset cruise on the river when it's 75, the water is flat calm, and the water temperature is 72 and running a Montauk thru the surf up in Rhode Island, in March, when the water temperature is 55. In one case I'd take Grandma, sit her on the RPS facing backwards, and never worry about PFD's. In the other case I'd be in a wetsuit, and also have a lift-harness inflatable with PLB and stobe fastened on and secure. If folks are not able to understand the differences, they ought not be boating.

The ability to understand that there is a variety of environments, and not just "one way" and "one place" is part of being an intelligent thinker. The choice to be respectful of other environments and choices and experiences is part of civil discourse and debate. There is much to learn from others. I'd respectfully challenge those here to raise the level of the discussion out of the sandbox.

Dave

.

posted 05-26-2012 12:24 PM ET (US)            

Be that as it may, since an inflatable vest can easily be found with 35# and 40# of bouncy, can you provide one example of a type1 with even an equivalent amount of buoyancy ? I think the inherently buoyant vests are limited to around 25# or so.

I suppose I may now be attacked also.

Back to the original thread for a moment. Does anyone know why the drowned victim was not able to inflate his vest ? I was hoping there would be a follow up.

posted 05-27-2012 12:39 AM ET (US)            

FYI, I don't care who cares to boat with me, especially the manly hero in VT who shoots fish from trees. Nor do I care about speedy Pinkster. I don't boat in the regions that you do.

I have said it a thousand times, IF YOU DON"T EXPECT ANY RESCUE, go out as ill prepared as you want. IF YOU EXPECT ASSISTANCE, take simple steps you ensure your possible survival. OR- become a Darwin award.

posted 05-27-2012 02:54 AM ET (US)         

Please reread the quote I responded to regarding lizzy's specific claims about the capability of an inflatable pfd. The fact is the Mustang pfd's do not meet the USCG's type I rating and do not provide the same head out of water support that a USCG rated type I pfd would. You can argue this with the United States Coast Guard if you wish.

posted 05-27-2012 09:13 AM ET (US)            

A few points:

(1): Inflatables are *not eligible* to be classified as a Type I PFD... so you will not find them so rated. That's likie looking for a Chicken marked as Grade-A Beef. ;-)

(2): A well designed *high quality* Inflatable WILL provide the same head out of water support of an unconcious person as a Type I. They are just not going to be "Rated" as a Type I due to the fact that they do not meet the technical description of a Type I. Ask any Navy Trained Pilot how his inflatable held him up in training: They keep the pilots head out of the water *while wearing over 75 pounds of survival gear, steel toe boots, and while wearing a helmet*. You can take this from me as a fact... I've been there, done that.

(3): I have never seen a Type I PFD carried on a Boston Whaler. Have you ever REALLY looked at one? Trust me.. you don't have the stowage space for them (I have 15 of them on my offshore dive boat, and they are HUGE).

(4): ALL open Whalers that I have ever seen are equipped with Type II PFD's. If you are the exception... you are the exception. Any GOOD (meaning not the cheapest one at West Marine) inflastable will outperform the common Type II vest with ease.

(5): Most people ACTUALLY USE an Inflatable as a substitute for a Type III, meaning that they are WORN and not simply carried, when engaging in activities that might result in inadvertant swimming. When boating solo, when entering or exiting an inlet with breakers, etc.... activities that are badly hampered or made impossible by wearing a "rigid" PFD. Try crewing a racing sailboat in a standard PFD sometime. All of the offshore racers wear inflatables.

(6): In my experience, I have never seen anyone *substitute* inflatables for their required PFD's. Everyone I have seen using them carries them IN ADDITION to the Type II's that are stashed here and there. They are generally *additional inventory* and not *substitute inventory*.

(7): MOST sinkings take place so fast that getting your Type II out of it's stowage is impossible. The bottom line regarding your Type II is that if it cannot float free *without any action being taken by the crew* then it's going to go down with the ship. Most stowages preclude this. An Inflatable that is worn, or tossed on the console, is far better than a foam one that is sitting on the bottom inside the center console of your sunken boat.

(8): In fact, boating practices and activities vary from day to day, and from hour to hour. Use of good sense and judgement is essential. Here's a hypthetical summer day on my Montauk up in Rhode Island. Solo run down the absolutely calm salt pond to pick up a dive buddy: I wear my vest since I am solo (as well as my wrist cord for the cut-off). I pick him up and we then run on the same salt pond to the inlet: I shed my vest because it's getting hot and I have a buddy to help me if I fall overboard "checking the transducer" or whatever, but I leave it laying on the console if needed. We reach the inlet and it's breaking waves for our penetration out: We lay to, get into our wetsuits (since we are going spearfishing anyhow), and both of us drop our inflatables on over the top. After we clear the inlet and run offshore we shed the vest when we feel like it, and are in our wetsuits. We fish all day, come back to the inlet, things have settled down, so we just stay in our suits. We run to his house, clean fish, and pick up his 6 year old son, 8 year old daughter, and his wife for a sunset cruise. Both of the kids go into normal Type III vests and the rest of us are in shorts and T shirts. We get to the place where we anchor, want to swim, all vests come off, and we jump into the water with bathing suits on and enjoy the day. But... as we are running back wit the kids wearing their Type III's and the adults in T shirts and shorts, we are stopped by our friendly Coasties, who ask to see our vests. I don't even bother to show them the inflatables, I just open the cooler forward of the console, and show them the 4 Type II vests that are stashed there for emergency use. The Coastie running the boarding comments as to how most folks need to fish under the center console for them, and in fact last week a guy had them LOCKED into his center console and had forgotten the key in his truck. I show him that the latch of the cooler has been removed so that the vests have a good chance to float free if we sink... he smiles and we go on our way.

In one very typical day we have used every tool in the box. If you do not know how to "roll with the punches" then all's lost. The key is to having the right tools, and knowing when to use them.

Dave

.

posted 05-27-2012 09:53 AM ET (US)            

(2): Nobody but kids are boating with Type I or II PFD's being worn while fishing... a worn inflatable is better than a stowed foam vest.

(3): By your logic, would he have been better off WITHOUT an inflatable? There certainly were normal vests stowed aboard, are you suggesting that his inflatable *prevented him* somehow from getting his "real" vest out of stowage? Of course not... he mishap was a "bolt of lightning" sinking. Instant and catastrophic. You are going to go into the water with EXCTLY what you are wearing at the moment. Better with "something decent on" rather than "something perfect stowed and inaccessable".

I suspect that you don't actually use this stuff too often... so you might want to listen to others who have experience levels that support their reasoning. Having (A) had a boat sink out from under me with 30 seconds of warning we had PFD's stowed in the under T-Top nets.. and had no time to get them..) I can tell you that if it's not on your body or in your pockets, you are not going to have it when you get rolled over or your transom goes down as you try to pull up a pot.

<sigh>

++++++

I'd like to modify what I wrote above though: It appears that the USCG has now written the specifications to permit Inflatables to be certified as Type I and Type II, but that no manufacturers have certified them. There is a very good chart here, and a good discussion of the pro and con of different vests. Good simple read. I agree with the conclusions.

http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/pfdbasics.htm

Dave

.

posted 05-27-2012 10:53 AM ET (US)            

rich

posted 05-27-2012 11:42 AM ET (US)         

That link you posted does not make a very convincing argument for inflatables over a good type II. Assuming either will be worn of course.

I am not trying to knock inflatables at all. I value your experience with them and am going to purchase a couple myself to be used by extremely cautious passengers or by myself and my fishing partner during our winter fishing adventures when PFD's are mandatory when we cross the line into New York waters. I may even slip one on when not mandatory if conditions dictate. I will also carry the four type II's that I always carry, two in the cooler and two velcroed to the console stanchions.

I still don't think that any of this changes the fact that the USCG has not rated these things as type I and as such it cannot be assumed that they will perform like a type I, despite lizzy's claim that they will. Who are we to argue with the USCG?

posted 05-27-2012 03:19 PM ET (US)            

Sad,, but in a morbid sense, the good part is the realization that sometimes fear and that instant life struggle over burdens the brain with a "fight or flight" survival reaction, even with a better method within your grasp ignored.

posted 05-27-2012 04:31 PM ET (US)            

(1): A foam PFD helps you ONLY IF YOU WEAR IT.

which precedes:

(2): NOBODY that I know WEARS a foam PFD as a matter of course. Every try working in one?

(3): Obviously, if it failed to inflate it was not correctly maintained. That's not the fault of the vest.

Basic observation: Two out of three aboard were saved by their vests. If they had only foam vests aboard, my bet is that not one of them would have had them on, and all three would have drowned.

LGH: Good for you keeping a pair of Type I's in your locker. That's the right spot, and the best vests. I maintain over a dozen of them on my big boat, each with stobe, whistle, dye marker, and drogue. Three of them have PLB's attached. It's always a compromise: The better the gear the greater the cost and the greater the bulk.

Dave

.

posted 05-27-2012 07:41 PM ET (US)            

The link was not to make any argument at all: I posted it as a reference to give an easy to understand chart as to what each type is best at, and what it's limitations are. Most people do not even understand the differences between classes of vests.

And... I think many have misunderstood that I am not advocating REPLACING normal vests with inflatables. I consider my inflatables to be SUPPLEMENTAL to my other inventory, to be worn *when appropriate*.

*Supplemental*

and

*When Appropriate*

are the operative terms.

Dave

.

posted 05-27-2012 08:38 PM ET (US)            

I also think it is ridiculous for anyone to make an argument against the statement that wearing the proper lifejacket is less safe than not wearing one. Yes there are times I choose not to wear one, I am making a personal decision based on conditions and other factors to take the risk.

All I was doing is making sure that the people who read this post realize that inflatable PFDs are special use lifejackets that have some special limitations. I was and still am concerned that people are using these lifejackets without having the proper skills to use them.

If you are using an auto inflate lifejacket and everything works as it is suppose to then all is good no matter how good or bad of a swimmer you are. But if something does not work as planned a weaker swimmer may not be able to deal with being in the water and trying to inflate a lifejacket, either by ripcord or by mouth.

posted 05-27-2012 08:58 PM ET (US)            

Isn't that true for anything of this nature?

Even a basic Type I or Type II jacket requires training in order to safely don it, and even more so, to manage it in the water. How many folks here have actually tried their jackets in the water? My bet is a very small fraction. Type II vests of the sort bought at Walmart and West Marine will allow the user to slip down out of the thing and drown... unless you are actively holding onto the thing, I'd give a wearer about an hour.

Really...maybe untrained non-swimming granny-lady does not really need a ride in a small boat. One of the advantages of the 'Tauk is that only the brave come a second time.. ;-)

Dave

.

posted 05-28-2012 12:24 AM ET (US)            

Who gives a Rats Patootie?

I could care less if you guys inflate these things in you backside, this is a not a lifejacket discusson, start your own argument thread!

posted 05-28-2012 01:56 AM ET (US)            

Being an employee at a beach and boat launching facility, I will try to save a life every day that I work. Same goes for internet forums.

If this man died of cardiac failure, my heart goes out to his family, but I would hope the family would appreciate any efforts to save additional lives at sea.

As far as foam vs. CO2 operated PFD's, I would side with foam because of reliability... comfort is secondary.

posted 05-28-2012 04:05 AM ET (US)            

If you get hit by the boom or spinacker pole etc. you may not have your full factalties to realise your life jacket has not done what it's suppose to......

posted 05-28-2012 09:53 AM ET (US)            

I prefer and wear inflatable PFDs. I have an old manually inflatable and a new automatically inflated PFD. When out with my wife she gets the automatic. When alone I wear the automatic. I attach the engine kill lanyard under almost all conditions.

As a pretty safety minded person I'm always aware of which PFD I'm wearing. I also mentally rehearse various scenarios for going overboard. I've tested and rearmed both PFDs but have been unable to get the wife to test hers.

Our main reason for wearing PFDs in calm conditions is the possibility of hitting a partially submerged snag or a piling just under the surface and being bounced out of the boat at speed. Much of the waters in my area are unmarked or poorly marked with NAVAIDS.

posted 05-28-2012 10:16 AM ET (US)            

Maybe the History Channel will do a reality show about your life. Sounds pretty dangerous and exciting. Your show could follow the one about morons baiting gators..;)

posted 05-28-2012 12:19 PM ET (US)            

Really: My test of a person in the 'Tauk is to see if they sit down on the RPS or (even funnier) on the forward cooler, and expect to stay seated while running.

Those that do... "are not boaters".

Those that stand... "are".

If they pass the "stand test" they get handed an Inflatable vest.

If they do not... they get handed a foamie, because they really probably ought not be be out on a small open skiff at all.

Dave

posted 05-28-2012 12:33 PM ET (US)            

rich, the director

posted 05-28-2012 01:06 PM ET (US)            

This summer we do plan to run offshore to some of the sea buoys, to try to shoot the Mahi that lay in the shadows. Yes, we have Mahi (Dolphin, Dorado, whatever you want to call them) in RI, offshore naturally near the 'Stream.

We do also have tuna here, it's just that when they are chummed up to the back of the boat, they are always mixed with sharks... LOTS of sharks... and it's often at night. Jumping in with them snapping at chum is a little too entertaining even for me to consider. ;-)

(even though did rig a speargun last summer for it...)

End of segue... back to the topic at hand.

Dave

posted 05-28-2012 01:39 PM ET (US)            

Where can you pick up the "stream" from RI in a small boat?

As a charter boat mate on the south shore of Long Island I spent a few teenage years fishing for blue fish and big tuna and no one ever spoke of fishing the stream.

BTW, your tales are more interesting than this thread. I feel bad that the guy died from a heart attack, but in reality he died doing somthing he enjoyed. I knew a guy that died of a heart attack while driving a stock car. Really nailed the wall hard. Its better than dying in a bed from cancer, I think

posted 05-28-2012 03:46 PM ET (US)            

We get eddies that come in close enough to influence the water here in the late summer, and in fact we get loads or small tropical fish in the shallows by late August: All sorts of damselfish, butterfly fish, etc. Fun for aquarium owners, and netting them in the shallows is a usual September game for many here. We shoot many Grey Triggerfish to eat starting about July 15th. It's a microclimate, and not a regular thing, but it does happen.

We use NOAA Infrared Spectrum satellite depictions to see what is going to influence the waters offshore. We get Loggerhead turtles, tuna, Mahi, and many of the "southern" fish starting about, oh... 30 miles off Montauk. That's just a normal 'Tauk run for us on a nice day.

I have not taken the 'Tauk out "alone" (yet) to the offshore buoys, but in years past on the way out to dive the Andrea Doria on my big boat, we have stopped at both the sea buoys and offshore lobster pot buoys to spear fish for dinner. The buoys act like shade does anywhere else: It attracts small fish that the big fish like to eat.

Just as an aside... we retrieved the bell of the Andrea Doria onto my big boat two summers ago. Two happy divers... and a measure of small fame for our group. I tow the 'Tauk offshore as a dive-tender.

If you want to see me strike 8 bells on the Andrea Doria ships bell for the first time since she sank, enjoy this:

http://pierdive.com/blog/page/2/

That was a good trip offshore...

My views of wearing vests, etc., are those gained by running boats into harms way, not puttering around the bays. My watchstanders at night as we run offshore in the big boat are required by me to wear jackets, and passengers are prohibited from the weather decks at night. During the day we are a bit more relaxed about it. In the Whaler they are an essential tool.

Dave