Southern Michigan Marina Owner Says Ethanol is Bad For Outboard Engines

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wannabe posted 06-16-2012 11:14 PM ET (US)
I went to a Southern Michigan marina today to purchase some fuel line for my father-in-law's older Evinrude outboard engine. We talked to the owner, and he was NOT painting a pretty picture of the gasoline incompatibility with outboard engines. He said you can do all the right things like using additives and running the gas out and still have troubles. He has seen boats come in two times with burned pistons due to poor gas. He also stated that marine fuel could help but the way they boost octane causes trouble too. He had a shelf full of replacement carbs. I think I'll just polish and look at my new boat as I am getting afraid to start it. Seriously, I think I will look for non-ethanol fuel which will be Marina gasoline in my area.--Drew
gusgus posted 06-17-2012 02:07 AM ET (US)
That is such a shame. I don't know of one person who would say yes I want ethanol fuel. I am wondering, if there is a way to doctor our fuel to soften it's impact on our fuel systems?
jfortson posted 06-17-2012 07:31 AM ET (US)
Wasn't the marina operator referring more to older engines? My impression is that newer engines are better engineered to handle today's fuels. It's the same for older classic cars which were built in the leaded fuel era - today's unleaded fuels run hotter and often burns the valves.
While today's gas may be junk, the motors shold handle it with additives or "marina" or other alcohol free gas.
Mambo Minnow posted 06-17-2012 08:20 AM ET (US)
You can not find ethanol free gas in some parts of the country. In the Northeast, (NY and New England) even the marina's sell E10 because the state laws don't allow for any flexibility. In Florida, you could acquire Recreational 90, free of ethanol.
The ethanol is problematic for my 1984 Evinrude VRO 90HP. Constantly having to clean the carbs, even when I treat the gas and run dry for winter storage.
wannabe posted 06-17-2012 08:28 AM ET (US)
gusgus, Yes there are products to combat the alcohol troubles and the dealer encouraged the use of them. He said sometimes this doesn't work.
jfortson, The modern outboards also have issues with the fuel also. There was an E tec on his bench that had a burned piston and poor fuel was determined to be the trouble. I tried to get him to point to a certain brand being more trouble and he said All the manufacturers are have issues.

He also stated that some of his customers are getting fresh gas every time they go to their cottage and dumping the unused fuel from their boats into their cars at the end of the weekend.
wannabe posted 06-17-2012 08:38 AM ET (US)
Mambo Minnow, Additionally to what you are doing for winter layup I was told that there are screws on some carb. bowls that can be removed to drain the rest of the unburned fuel out of the carbs. They are selling E10 at some marinas in Ohio but not all at this point.
Drew

fishrswim posted 06-17-2012 07:51 PM ET (US)
Try this web site to find non-ethanol fuel in your area.
http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov
davej14 posted 06-17-2012 09:08 PM ET (US)
In my area, Central NY, the Oneida Nation started selling ethanol free fuel at some of their "Saveon" stations.
Russ 13 posted 06-17-2012 09:20 PM ET (US)
Write your respective congressman or woman. Tell them your thoughts about the great ethanol fuel that costs more than
the fuel without ethanol, and produces less usable energy. ....DO SOMETHING....
The "Green energy plan, is political crap."
"All that is required for evil to flourish, is for good men to do nothing."
jimh posted 06-17-2012 09:49 PM ET (US)
In Michigan many on-the-water fuel retailers offer REC-90, a pure mid-grade gasoline of 90-Octane with no ethanol. Just about every marina I have visited in Michigan in the past two years has been selling REC-90 fuel at their fuel dock. It is not particularly hard to acquire REC-90 from on-the-water sellers.
It is fairly difficult and in some cases almost impossible to buy pure gasoline on the highway anywhere in Michigan, particularly in Southeast Michigan. I have been looking for several years for a highway fuel retailer who sells pure gasoline, but other than 110-octane racing fuel at $9/gallon, I have not found any sources.
I don't take much stock in the anecdotal reports from your unidentified marina owner regarding use of E-10 ethanol-gaoline blended fuel in outboard engines. I have run E-10 fuel in my outboard for decades and not seen any problems.
wannabe posted 06-17-2012 09:54 PM ET (US)
I found a Marina that sells Valve Tect gas. Found nothing that would sell non ethanol land gas.
wannabe posted 06-17-2012 10:18 PM ET (US)
Jimh The unidentified Marine dealer is Marsh bros. in the Hillsdale area. They specialize in pontoons(sales,service and storage). The owner whom I talked to did say you may never have a problem but alot of people are. I think the problems start with the fuel getting old with inadequate measures taken to prevent troubles.
The shop(Bi State Marine) that I have my new to me 18 Outrage getting checked out said they rebuilt about 200 carbs. last year do to E10. They were even interviewed in the Toledo Blade newspaper last year about the issue.
Not trying to start a panic but the problem is real.
Drew

wannabe posted 06-17-2012 10:38 PM ET (US)
I would like to clarify that [the dealer being quoted] said ethanol is causing problems with All outboards--new and old. If you have fuel separation nothing will run right. I have no expertise in this area so I am "parroting" what two different marinas told me.
Plotman posted 06-17-2012 11:11 PM ET (US)
So how does this guy know that ethanol is the culprit with the problems he has seen?
He says lots of people don't have problems with ethanol, but a few do? How has he controlled for all the other variable when making this conclusion?
So he has seen two instances of burned pistons. Why was ethanol to blame? My grandma used to swear that eating ice cream before you went swimming could cause you to get cramps and drown.
wannabe posted 06-17-2012 11:41 PM ET (US)
Plotman, That was two times for burned pistons on the same boat. I did not word it correctly. He has had alot more than just two.
Being no expert but the conclusion I came to is if I had to run E10 I would do so. If I had to store it for any length of time in the boat tank I might get a little worried.
I went to two different marinas within a week of each other and both have seen large increases in fuel related troubles with New and Old outboards. That is the bottom line. Do what you will with the info. Just passing on what I have heard but certainly no scientific controlled studies going on here.

Plotman posted 06-17-2012 11:54 PM ET (US)
I guess I'm a little jaded on the whole "ethanol is poison to our engines" because in MN and WI we have been running E-10 for a couple of decades without apparent problems.
As far as "old gas" being a problem, see my post about having my 1985 OMC 70 fire on the first turn of the key - after months of sitting - on a half tank of year-old gas. I just don't buy it.
As far as burned pistons from ethanol - i don't even see what the mechanism would be. Doesn't that come from running hot (lack of cooling) or lack of lubrication?
The only problems with ethanol in my book (and again, from decades of experience with E-10) are 1) The politics of ethanol subsidies, 2) really old hoses and seals (and certain fiberglass tanks) not being compatible with alcohol, 3) the fact that it has fewer BTUs per gallon and hurts gas mileage.
Binkster posted 06-18-2012 12:14 AM ET (US)
Old wives tale. I've been running E-10 gas in my 1961 Evinrude 75hp V4 for 4 years I have owned it with no problems. All outboards are designed to run on 87 octane gas. I don't let the gas sit in the tank for more than a couple of months, and I also use Sta-bel in the gas.
rich
Russ 13 posted 06-18-2012 01:13 AM ET (US)
Allot of "old wives" are having REAL problems with fuel separation caused by ethanol. Buy that!
There are many products that are better than -Sta-Bel-
for helping to prevent fuel separation.
Unfortunatly just treating the disease, instead of eliminating it.
Ethanol = A loss of performance, fuel separation, water absorbtion, rubber & gasket destruction, and increased manufacturing cost. Subsidised crap in your fuel.
...next question....
fishrswim posted 06-18-2012 01:23 AM ET (US)
I don't know about the engine problems, but a gallon of ethanol contains about 50% less energy than a gallon of gasoline. So 100 gallons of E10 will take you as far as 95 gallons of gasoline. At $4 per gallon that's $20 bucks you paid for nothing. I'm really happy my marina has changed to non-ethanol fuel.
Plotman posted 06-18-2012 10:30 AM ET (US)
Nice try fish.
Ethanol has a heat content of 76,000 BTU per gallon, which is 33% less (not 50%) than a gallon of standard gasoline.
As mixed, E-10 has a heat content of 111,800 BTU compared to 114,500, a difference of less than 2%, not 5% as you claim.
In a $400 load of fuel, that is $8, but that presumes that you are being charged the same for the E-10 that you would for the straight gas. Since ethanol is cheaper than gasoline, this is not likely.
Look, I'm no great ethanol supporter, but this chicken little the sky is falling stuff is kind of silly.
swist posted 06-18-2012 11:35 AM ET (US)
Anecdotal and unscientific in the utmost.
A large number of the Ethanol related failures around here relate to putting E10 into an old tank/engine and having the alcohol knock loose varnish and other crud which pure gasoline does not self-clean. I am certainily not understating the seriousness of having your fuel system completely clogged up but it's a special case. Those with newer engines / fuel systems, or those who have kept their older fuel systems meticulously clean seem to have many fewer problems.
And that's my ultra-scientific input based on a lot of hanging around boaters and marinas in the area :-)
davej14 posted 06-18-2012 12:19 PM ET (US)
As long as we are being "un-scientific" then we need to include the cost of the government subsidies for ethanol in our analysis to determine the real cost of ethanol "enhanced" fuel. Take away the subsidies and I seriously doubt that ethanol "enhanced" fuel would be less expensive at the local retail outlet. Once again we have political arithmetic involved so you cannot just look at the artificial market resale price of a product.
JMARTIN posted 06-18-2012 12:29 PM ET (US)
If 10% of the fuel is 33% less efficient, isn't that more like a 3% total?
From a suppliers view of why I do not like E10.
It's my fault in the customers eyes, of why Grandpa's 1962 pickup crapped out on its first E10 fill up.
My turbines and pipes all have a coating of rust now since I have been selling E10.
The shelve life is shorter.
I go through 3 times the amount of pump filters.

What I like about E10.
At least twice a year we were able to thief 2 to 3 gallons of water off the bottom of our fuel tanks. We do not need to do that with E10.
John
elenakagan posted 06-18-2012 08:00 PM ET (US)
Here's something non-anecdotal, took my trusty STIHL chain saw in for a check up, I was told I needed a new carb thanks to Ethanol. end of story. Anecdotal=$140.00 Donkey urine may have as much energy content as corn ethanol, maybe someone will start a new Green company and elicit DOE funds to explore this possibility.
jimh posted 06-18-2012 09:02 PM ET (US)
I have not seen anything new in this thread. We have been over this ground many times. It is fun to jog around the track again. We have some new joggers on the track.
I'll throw in some old news: fuel hoses have been rated for alcohol since c.1987, which was 25-years ago.
I think it is optimistic to have expectations that rubber fuel hose will last more than 25 years, so in the year 2012 you ought to be replacing fuel hose made in 1987 or earlier.
jimh posted 06-19-2012 06:55 AM ET (US)
Phase separation of water and gasoline is certainly undesirable in a fuel tank. Ethanol-gasoline blended fuel actually holds more water in solution than pure gasoline will, and for decades it was a common practice to add alcohol to gasoline to prepare it for storage to take advantage of the increased solubility of water in alcohol-gasoline blended fuel.
tmann45 posted 06-19-2012 08:46 AM ET (US)
Just some additional info on phase separation from one of the popular fuel treatment manufacturers:
Q: How does Marine Formula STA-BIL® Ethanol Treatment handle water?
A: Ethanol blended fuels can naturally hold up to 4 tbsp of water per gallon (about 0.5%) before phase separation occurs. Marine Formula STA-BIL® Ethanol Treatment contains a chemical that will absorb an additional fraction of a percent of water above this amount (around 0.2%), by bonding with the water molecules, allowing this additional amount to pass safely through the engine and out through the tailpipe. Any amount above this will drop to the bottom and phase separate. Removing large amounts of water (more than 0.75%) through bonding will cause poor power/acceleration and sometimes cause the engine to quit. Additionally, it can cause catastrophic engine damage. No engine manufacturer recommends removal of these large amounts of water through bonding.
Plotman posted 06-19-2012 12:25 PM ET (US)
Regular gasoline will "phase separate" when virtually any quantity of water is added to the tank.
Ethanol blended gas will do so when there is so much water that the ethanol present in the fuel will no longer bond to it. But by that time you would have a lot of free water on the bottom of a tank of standard gas.
It is a myth that ethanol blended gas will phase separate without this excess water.

tmann45 posted 06-19-2012 07:35 PM ET (US)
I was just looking at the numbers that are reported in the Stabil website quote above and something is not right. Stabil used the abbreviation 'tbsp' that means tablespoon to me, 4-tbsp would be 1.6% by volume and 0.5% would be 1.3 tbsp or 3.8 teaspoons. So, I found another article that stated phase separation occurs at around 0.5%, therefore I conclude that tbsp in the Stabil article should actually be tsp, teaspoons.
A 100 gallon tank could absorb approximately 1/2 gallon of water before causing phase separation, and the volume of water/ethanol mixture would be between 2 and 2.5 gallons after phase separation due to the volume of ethanol pulled out of the E10 gasoline.
swist posted 06-20-2012 08:37 AM ET (US)
Re: Chainsaw. With all due respect, your evidence is still anecdotal since 1) the carb might have been at or near the point of replacement anyway, and (2) you are taking some serviceman's word that the damage was caused by Ethanol. As this thread will attest to, damage caused by E10 is not widely understood.
Scientific data is really hard to obtain - you would need to have two identically used and maintained chainsaws one of which was fed E10, the other not.
gusgus posted 06-20-2012 02:33 PM ET (US)
Did anyone here ask for ethanol? Did anyone want it? How about today?
To me this is the situation, not whether it is 3% or 10% worse or causes old Swedish ladies to run into the hills.
Whether the market benefits from it's existence, is the point capitalists should be arguing for or against.
The wives tales and facts people believe, don't seem to be slowing the EPA from force feeding their own out of control agenda down out fuel hoses.
I believe the question isn't or shouldn't be is it destructive, but rather is it good for America, which is the same thing as "good for business" IMHO.
We all know how truthful the Greenies have been about greenhouse gases.
JMARTIN posted 06-20-2012 03:01 PM ET (US)
E15 has been approved for sale now for 2001 and newer vehicles. No mention of boat motors.
“In the eyes of the federal government, E15 is a legal fuel for sale to cars, pickups, and SUVs made since 2001,” said RFA President and CEO Bob Dinneen. “E15 has undergone the most vigorous testing and regulatory process of any fuel approved by the federal government. With all i’s dotted and t’s crossed as far as EPA is concerned, our undivided focus will turn to addressing state regulatory issues, identifying retailers wishing to offer E15, and paving the way to greater use of domestically produced ethanol.”
Agriculture Secretary Tom Vilsack shared his thoughts on the EPA’s action, ”Today, the last significant federal hurdle has been cleared to allow consumers to buy fuel containing up to 15 percent ethanol (E15). This gets us one step closer to giving the American consumer a real choice at the pump. The public has a right to choose between imported oil and home-grown energy and today’s action by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) advances that goal.”
The EPA and the Department of Agriculture are now determining our energy use? What does the Department of Energy do?
John
fishgutz posted 06-20-2012 03:09 PM ET (US)
It is corn growers and dairy farmers that love and want ethanol. They are the ones benefiting from the government subsidies. They are organized and although most are Republican don't really want a true free enterprise system, they want that government money. I know, I have relatives who are farmers.
contender posted 06-23-2012 09:08 PM ET (US)
Ethanol is one of the biggest scams push on to the American public, This stuff is crap, cost more to make than what it produces, and some politicians are getting rich pushing this issue stating it is green and saving fuel. Ethanol has screwed up my lawn equipment and chain saws. Left in an outboard it clogs the jets and the fuel injection (why should I have to purchase an additive, if the fuel is good why would I have to purchase extra additives to keep my engine clean.) No one here or any where else will ever convince me that Ethanol is good, period...

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Author	Topic: Southern Michigan Marina Owner Says Ethanol is Bad For Outboard Engines
wannabe	posted 06-16-2012 11:14 PM ET (US) I went to a Southern Michigan marina today to purchase some fuel line for my father-in-law's older Evinrude outboard engine. We talked to the owner, and he was NOT painting a pretty picture of the gasoline incompatibility with outboard engines. He said you can do all the right things like using additives and running the gas out and still have troubles. He has seen boats come in two times with burned pistons due to poor gas. He also stated that marine fuel could help but the way they boost octane causes trouble too. He had a shelf full of replacement carbs. I think I'll just polish and look at my new boat as I am getting afraid to start it. Seriously, I think I will look for non-ethanol fuel which will be Marina gasoline in my area.--Drew
gusgus	posted 06-17-2012 02:07 AM ET (US) That is such a shame. I don't know of one person who would say yes I want ethanol fuel. I am wondering, if there is a way to doctor our fuel to soften it's impact on our fuel systems?
jfortson	posted 06-17-2012 07:31 AM ET (US) Wasn't the marina operator referring more to older engines? My impression is that newer engines are better engineered to handle today's fuels. It's the same for older classic cars which were built in the leaded fuel era - today's unleaded fuels run hotter and often burns the valves. While today's gas may be junk, the motors shold handle it with additives or "marina" or other alcohol free gas.
Mambo Minnow	posted 06-17-2012 08:20 AM ET (US) You can not find ethanol free gas in some parts of the country. In the Northeast, (NY and New England) even the marina's sell E10 because the state laws don't allow for any flexibility. In Florida, you could acquire Recreational 90, free of ethanol. The ethanol is problematic for my 1984 Evinrude VRO 90HP. Constantly having to clean the carbs, even when I treat the gas and run dry for winter storage.
wannabe	posted 06-17-2012 08:28 AM ET (US) gusgus, Yes there are products to combat the alcohol troubles and the dealer encouraged the use of them. He said sometimes this doesn't work. jfortson, The modern outboards also have issues with the fuel also. There was an E tec on his bench that had a burned piston and poor fuel was determined to be the trouble. I tried to get him to point to a certain brand being more trouble and he said All the manufacturers are have issues. He also stated that some of his customers are getting fresh gas every time they go to their cottage and dumping the unused fuel from their boats into their cars at the end of the weekend.
wannabe	posted 06-17-2012 08:38 AM ET (US) Mambo Minnow, Additionally to what you are doing for winter layup I was told that there are screws on some carb. bowls that can be removed to drain the rest of the unburned fuel out of the carbs. They are selling E10 at some marinas in Ohio but not all at this point. Drew
fishrswim	posted 06-17-2012 07:51 PM ET (US) Try this web site to find non-ethanol fuel in your area. http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov
davej14	posted 06-17-2012 09:08 PM ET (US) In my area, Central NY, the Oneida Nation started selling ethanol free fuel at some of their "Saveon" stations.
Russ 13	posted 06-17-2012 09:20 PM ET (US) Write your respective congressman or woman. Tell them your thoughts about the great ethanol fuel that costs more than the fuel without ethanol, and produces less usable energy. ....DO SOMETHING.... The "Green energy plan, is political crap." "All that is required for evil to flourish, is for good men to do nothing."
jimh	posted 06-17-2012 09:49 PM ET (US) In Michigan many on-the-water fuel retailers offer REC-90, a pure mid-grade gasoline of 90-Octane with no ethanol. Just about every marina I have visited in Michigan in the past two years has been selling REC-90 fuel at their fuel dock. It is not particularly hard to acquire REC-90 from on-the-water sellers. It is fairly difficult and in some cases almost impossible to buy pure gasoline on the highway anywhere in Michigan, particularly in Southeast Michigan. I have been looking for several years for a highway fuel retailer who sells pure gasoline, but other than 110-octane racing fuel at $9/gallon, I have not found any sources. I don't take much stock in the anecdotal reports from your unidentified marina owner regarding use of E-10 ethanol-gaoline blended fuel in outboard engines. I have run E-10 fuel in my outboard for decades and not seen any problems.
wannabe	posted 06-17-2012 09:54 PM ET (US) I found a Marina that sells Valve Tect gas. Found nothing that would sell non ethanol land gas.
wannabe	posted 06-17-2012 10:18 PM ET (US) Jimh The unidentified Marine dealer is Marsh bros. in the Hillsdale area. They specialize in pontoons(sales,service and storage). The owner whom I talked to did say you may never have a problem but alot of people are. I think the problems start with the fuel getting old with inadequate measures taken to prevent troubles. The shop(Bi State Marine) that I have my new to me 18 Outrage getting checked out said they rebuilt about 200 carbs. last year do to E10. They were even interviewed in the Toledo Blade newspaper last year about the issue. Not trying to start a panic but the problem is real. Drew
wannabe	posted 06-17-2012 10:38 PM ET (US) I would like to clarify that [the dealer being quoted] said ethanol is causing problems with All outboards--new and old. If you have fuel separation nothing will run right. I have no expertise in this area so I am "parroting" what two different marinas told me.
Plotman	posted 06-17-2012 11:11 PM ET (US) So how does this guy know that ethanol is the culprit with the problems he has seen? He says lots of people don't have problems with ethanol, but a few do? How has he controlled for all the other variable when making this conclusion? So he has seen two instances of burned pistons. Why was ethanol to blame? My grandma used to swear that eating ice cream before you went swimming could cause you to get cramps and drown.
wannabe	posted 06-17-2012 11:41 PM ET (US) Plotman, That was two times for burned pistons on the same boat. I did not word it correctly. He has had alot more than just two. Being no expert but the conclusion I came to is if I had to run E10 I would do so. If I had to store it for any length of time in the boat tank I might get a little worried. I went to two different marinas within a week of each other and both have seen large increases in fuel related troubles with New and Old outboards. That is the bottom line. Do what you will with the info. Just passing on what I have heard but certainly no scientific controlled studies going on here.
Plotman	posted 06-17-2012 11:54 PM ET (US) I guess I'm a little jaded on the whole "ethanol is poison to our engines" because in MN and WI we have been running E-10 for a couple of decades without apparent problems. As far as "old gas" being a problem, see my post about having my 1985 OMC 70 fire on the first turn of the key - after months of sitting - on a half tank of year-old gas. I just don't buy it. As far as burned pistons from ethanol - i don't even see what the mechanism would be. Doesn't that come from running hot (lack of cooling) or lack of lubrication? The only problems with ethanol in my book (and again, from decades of experience with E-10) are 1) The politics of ethanol subsidies, 2) really old hoses and seals (and certain fiberglass tanks) not being compatible with alcohol, 3) the fact that it has fewer BTUs per gallon and hurts gas mileage.
Binkster	posted 06-18-2012 12:14 AM ET (US) Old wives tale. I've been running E-10 gas in my 1961 Evinrude 75hp V4 for 4 years I have owned it with no problems. All outboards are designed to run on 87 octane gas. I don't let the gas sit in the tank for more than a couple of months, and I also use Sta-bel in the gas. rich
Russ 13	posted 06-18-2012 01:13 AM ET (US) Allot of "old wives" are having REAL problems with fuel separation caused by ethanol. Buy that! There are many products that are better than -Sta-Bel- for helping to prevent fuel separation. Unfortunatly just treating the disease, instead of eliminating it. Ethanol = A loss of performance, fuel separation, water absorbtion, rubber & gasket destruction, and increased manufacturing cost. Subsidised crap in your fuel. ...next question....
fishrswim	posted 06-18-2012 01:23 AM ET (US) I don't know about the engine problems, but a gallon of ethanol contains about 50% less energy than a gallon of gasoline. So 100 gallons of E10 will take you as far as 95 gallons of gasoline. At $4 per gallon that's $20 bucks you paid for nothing. I'm really happy my marina has changed to non-ethanol fuel.
Plotman	posted 06-18-2012 10:30 AM ET (US) Nice try fish. Ethanol has a heat content of 76,000 BTU per gallon, which is 33% less (not 50%) than a gallon of standard gasoline. As mixed, E-10 has a heat content of 111,800 BTU compared to 114,500, a difference of less than 2%, not 5% as you claim. In a $400 load of fuel, that is $8, but that presumes that you are being charged the same for the E-10 that you would for the straight gas. Since ethanol is cheaper than gasoline, this is not likely. Look, I'm no great ethanol supporter, but this chicken little the sky is falling stuff is kind of silly.
swist	posted 06-18-2012 11:35 AM ET (US) Anecdotal and unscientific in the utmost. A large number of the Ethanol related failures around here relate to putting E10 into an old tank/engine and having the alcohol knock loose varnish and other crud which pure gasoline does not self-clean. I am certainily not understating the seriousness of having your fuel system completely clogged up but it's a special case. Those with newer engines / fuel systems, or those who have kept their older fuel systems meticulously clean seem to have many fewer problems. And that's my ultra-scientific input based on a lot of hanging around boaters and marinas in the area :-)
davej14	posted 06-18-2012 12:19 PM ET (US) As long as we are being "un-scientific" then we need to include the cost of the government subsidies for ethanol in our analysis to determine the real cost of ethanol "enhanced" fuel. Take away the subsidies and I seriously doubt that ethanol "enhanced" fuel would be less expensive at the local retail outlet. Once again we have political arithmetic involved so you cannot just look at the artificial market resale price of a product.
JMARTIN	posted 06-18-2012 12:29 PM ET (US) If 10% of the fuel is 33% less efficient, isn't that more like a 3% total? From a suppliers view of why I do not like E10. It's my fault in the customers eyes, of why Grandpa's 1962 pickup crapped out on its first E10 fill up. My turbines and pipes all have a coating of rust now since I have been selling E10. The shelve life is shorter. I go through 3 times the amount of pump filters. What I like about E10. At least twice a year we were able to thief 2 to 3 gallons of water off the bottom of our fuel tanks. We do not need to do that with E10. John
elenakagan	posted 06-18-2012 08:00 PM ET (US) Here's something non-anecdotal, took my trusty STIHL chain saw in for a check up, I was told I needed a new carb thanks to Ethanol. end of story. Anecdotal=$140.00 Donkey urine may have as much energy content as corn ethanol, maybe someone will start a new Green company and elicit DOE funds to explore this possibility.
jimh	posted 06-18-2012 09:02 PM ET (US) I have not seen anything new in this thread. We have been over this ground many times. It is fun to jog around the track again. We have some new joggers on the track. I'll throw in some old news: fuel hoses have been rated for alcohol since c.1987, which was 25-years ago. I think it is optimistic to have expectations that rubber fuel hose will last more than 25 years, so in the year 2012 you ought to be replacing fuel hose made in 1987 or earlier.
jimh	posted 06-19-2012 06:55 AM ET (US) Phase separation of water and gasoline is certainly undesirable in a fuel tank. Ethanol-gasoline blended fuel actually holds more water in solution than pure gasoline will, and for decades it was a common practice to add alcohol to gasoline to prepare it for storage to take advantage of the increased solubility of water in alcohol-gasoline blended fuel.
tmann45	posted 06-19-2012 08:46 AM ET (US) Just some additional info on phase separation from one of the popular fuel treatment manufacturers: Q: How does Marine Formula STA-BIL® Ethanol Treatment handle water? A: Ethanol blended fuels can naturally hold up to 4 tbsp of water per gallon (about 0.5%) before phase separation occurs. Marine Formula STA-BIL® Ethanol Treatment contains a chemical that will absorb an additional fraction of a percent of water above this amount (around 0.2%), by bonding with the water molecules, allowing this additional amount to pass safely through the engine and out through the tailpipe. Any amount above this will drop to the bottom and phase separate. Removing large amounts of water (more than 0.75%) through bonding will cause poor power/acceleration and sometimes cause the engine to quit. Additionally, it can cause catastrophic engine damage. No engine manufacturer recommends removal of these large amounts of water through bonding.
Plotman	posted 06-19-2012 12:25 PM ET (US) Regular gasoline will "phase separate" when virtually any quantity of water is added to the tank. Ethanol blended gas will do so when there is so much water that the ethanol present in the fuel will no longer bond to it. But by that time you would have a lot of free water on the bottom of a tank of standard gas. It is a myth that ethanol blended gas will phase separate without this excess water.
tmann45	posted 06-19-2012 07:35 PM ET (US) I was just looking at the numbers that are reported in the Stabil website quote above and something is not right. Stabil used the abbreviation 'tbsp' that means tablespoon to me, 4-tbsp would be 1.6% by volume and 0.5% would be 1.3 tbsp or 3.8 teaspoons. So, I found another article that stated phase separation occurs at around 0.5%, therefore I conclude that tbsp in the Stabil article should actually be tsp, teaspoons. A 100 gallon tank could absorb approximately 1/2 gallon of water before causing phase separation, and the volume of water/ethanol mixture would be between 2 and 2.5 gallons after phase separation due to the volume of ethanol pulled out of the E10 gasoline.
swist	posted 06-20-2012 08:37 AM ET (US) Re: Chainsaw. With all due respect, your evidence is still anecdotal since 1) the carb might have been at or near the point of replacement anyway, and (2) you are taking some serviceman's word that the damage was caused by Ethanol. As this thread will attest to, damage caused by E10 is not widely understood. Scientific data is really hard to obtain - you would need to have two identically used and maintained chainsaws one of which was fed E10, the other not.
gusgus	posted 06-20-2012 02:33 PM ET (US) Did anyone here ask for ethanol? Did anyone want it? How about today? To me this is the situation, not whether it is 3% or 10% worse or causes old Swedish ladies to run into the hills. Whether the market benefits from it's existence, is the point capitalists should be arguing for or against. The wives tales and facts people believe, don't seem to be slowing the EPA from force feeding their own out of control agenda down out fuel hoses. I believe the question isn't or shouldn't be is it destructive, but rather is it good for America, which is the same thing as "good for business" IMHO. We all know how truthful the Greenies have been about greenhouse gases.
JMARTIN	posted 06-20-2012 03:01 PM ET (US) E15 has been approved for sale now for 2001 and newer vehicles. No mention of boat motors. “In the eyes of the federal government, E15 is a legal fuel for sale to cars, pickups, and SUVs made since 2001,” said RFA President and CEO Bob Dinneen. “E15 has undergone the most vigorous testing and regulatory process of any fuel approved by the federal government. With all i’s dotted and t’s crossed as far as EPA is concerned, our undivided focus will turn to addressing state regulatory issues, identifying retailers wishing to offer E15, and paving the way to greater use of domestically produced ethanol.” Agriculture Secretary Tom Vilsack shared his thoughts on the EPA’s action, ”Today, the last significant federal hurdle has been cleared to allow consumers to buy fuel containing up to 15 percent ethanol (E15). This gets us one step closer to giving the American consumer a real choice at the pump. The public has a right to choose between imported oil and home-grown energy and today’s action by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) advances that goal.” The EPA and the Department of Agriculture are now determining our energy use? What does the Department of Energy do? John
fishgutz	posted 06-20-2012 03:09 PM ET (US) It is corn growers and dairy farmers that love and want ethanol. They are the ones benefiting from the government subsidies. They are organized and although most are Republican don't really want a true free enterprise system, they want that government money. I know, I have relatives who are farmers.
contender	posted 06-23-2012 09:08 PM ET (US) Ethanol is one of the biggest scams push on to the American public, This stuff is crap, cost more to make than what it produces, and some politicians are getting rich pushing this issue stating it is green and saving fuel. Ethanol has screwed up my lawn equipment and chain saws. Left in an outboard it clogs the jets and the fuel injection (why should I have to purchase an additive, if the fuel is good why would I have to purchase extra additives to keep my engine clean.) No one here or any where else will ever convince me that Ethanol is good, period...