Canadian Coast Guard Service Ups Ante on Ships on Great Lakes

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Author Topic:   Canadian Coast Guard Service Ups Ante on Ships on Great Lakes

jimh posted 08-25-2012 01:03 PM ET (US)
The Canadian Coast Guard Service has recently accepted a new HERO-class cutter from Halifax, Nova Scotia's IRVING SHIPBUILDING. The 42-meter-long CCGS PRIVATE ROBERTSON V.C. is on its way to its home port of Sarnia, Ontario. From Sarnia the vessel will be used in a joint program with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police for maritime security along the Great Lakes–St. Lawrence Seaway system.
The particulars of the HERO-class can be seen at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero-class_patrol_vessels
With a length of 42-meters or 138-feet, the CCGS PRIVATE ROBERTSON V.C. should be a rather imposing presence on the St. Clair River and Lake Huron. With an endurance of two-weeks at sea and a top speed of 29-MPH, the new cutter ought to be capable of catching any of the larger ships on the Great Lakes with ease.
I don't think the USA's Homeland Security has a vessel of comparable size and speed on the Great Lakes. Perhaps it is time for the USA to assign a small aircraft carrier to patrol Lake Huron in order to keep up in the anti-terrorism efforts being conducted on our inland seas.
Dave Sutton posted 08-25-2012 02:15 PM ET (US)
Nice to see. The Canadians have not forgotten that search and rescue is their primary mission. In contrast we were boarded last week in Presque Isle by four armed men wearing police uniforms, for a "vessel safety check," which is all the USCG seems interested in on the Great Lakes. We informed them that their presence in a quantity of four overloaded our boat, to their bemusement.
Glad to see Canada still appreciates their mission.--Dave
.
Plotman posted 08-25-2012 05:18 PM ET (US)
One of my favorite Coast Guard boarding stories comes from my days of college sailing. The Naval Academy had a fleet of 44 foot sailboats, and they would host regattas on these boats.
The Navy couldn't simply hand over a boat to a bunch of college kids from another school, so they always sent a "safety officer" along with us.
One Saturday as we were en route to the race course, the Coasties pull along side and state their intention to board for a vessel safety check.
The Navy officer aboard (I believe he was a full commander from the faculty) told the Petty Officer aboard the CG boat "I don't think so." The CG guy didn't like this, didn't believ this dude in a blue polo shirt was actually a Naval Officer, and threatened to stop us by force.
It ended with a Navy Yard Patrol boat coming to chase off the CG boat.
We found out later that it was a practical joke being played on a recently transferred CG crewman, who had no idea the blue sailboat was a US Navy vessel, and wasn't told this by his crew.
jimh posted 08-26-2012 12:06 PM ET (US)
Perhaps we can hold off on more USCG boarding stories in this thread and save 'em for another thread on that topic. I don't think the CCGS HERO-class vessels will be conducting too many routine safety inspections and boardings of small recreational boats.
The HERO-class or formerly Mid-shore Patrol Vessel will be built to a total of nine ships. Five of these will be used in the Maritimes, Quebec, and Pacific regions of Canada as primary support vessels for Fisheries and Oceans Conservation missions. The other four, including CCGS PRIVATE ROBERTSON V.C. homeported in Sarnia, are to be employed to "enhance maritime security along the Great Lakes–St. Lawrence Seaway system."
I suspect that search and rescue (SAR) missions will also be part of the vessel's duties.
By the way, there has been a very unusual amount of warship traffic around Detroit this week. On Thursday the Canadian warship
HMCS Ville de Québec (FFH 332)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMCS_Ville_de_Québec_(FFH_332)
stopped briefly at Sterling Fuel docks in Windsor to take on fuel before departing for Toledo. Ohio.
Also on Thursday the USA guided missile frigate USS DE WERT stopped for fuel just downstream of the Ambassador Bridge on the USA side and then departed for Toledo.
www.freep.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_De_Wert_(FFG-45)
With a draft of 25-feet the De Wert barely floated through the Welland canal locks. She has a projecting SONAR dome on her hull that was probably carefully protected. She also had to cut off some antennas from her top mast, which is normally projected 129-feet above the water line. The Welland canal vertical clearance is only 117-feet. See
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/FFG-60_schematic.jpg
Toledo is currently hosting NAVY WEEK:
http://www.toledoblade.com/local/2012/08/24/ Big-ships-herald-Toledo-s-Navy-Week.html

On Saturday, the Canadian warship HMCS Moncton (MM 708) was downbound through the river:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMCS_Moncton_(MM_708)
I am not sure where she was headed. I heard her exchange radio pleasantries with a recreational boat as she crossed Lake St. Clair.
jimh posted 08-26-2012 12:43 PM ET (US)
Today, Sunday, another warship HMCS Summerside (MM 711) downbound on Lake St. Clair.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMCS_Summerside_(MM_711)
This is a war-ship-spotter's dream weekend.
Dave Sutton posted 08-26-2012 05:03 PM ET (US)
Been seeing a bunch of warships on Lake Huron, so thanks for letting us know why! The AIS has been fun.

Dave
.
whalerdude posted 08-26-2012 11:13 PM ET (US)
It's sister ship the HMCS Moncton was anchored about a quarter mile offshore in Lake Bluff IL where I live. that was quite interesting. It was dwarfed by the USS Dewert while they were both in Chicago by Navy Pier Last weekend for the war of 1812 Bicentennial celebration.
David Pendleton posted 08-26-2012 11:26 PM ET (US)
Rank does not matter in law-enforcement situations.
You cannot "rank" yourself out of a violation.
martyn1075 posted 08-27-2012 01:02 AM ET (US)

quote:
The Canadians have not forgotten that search and rescue is their primary mission
They don't seem to care about the guys on the westcoast. I live in Vancouver, Im not surprised and Im not impressed at all. Its hard to believe in a large city with more than five major marinas all within 15 miles of each other, two of the largest are based right at the station of the Coast Guard, not to mention the Yacht clubs, Sailing clubs that the coast guard that is central to the harbor is being pulled.
It doesn't make much sense, or does it, where on earth are they going to get that kind of money to afford a ship like that.
http://www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/SAR/Search-and-Rescue-BC
http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/ protestors-fight-closure-of-vancouver-s-kitsilano-coast-guard-base-1. 930227
LINK

lizard posted 08-27-2012 01:18 AM ET (US)
Martyn- I don't know which part of the Left Coast you are talking about, but in So Cal, we have HEAVY patrols. On any given day, in a VERY small area, we have Lifeguards, Police, Coast Guard, Navy Patrol, Homeland Security, etc. Some days the fire power on the water is sobering. You should see the CG and Homeland Security vessels. WHO WOULD MESS WITH THEM? They have BIG AUTOMATIC weapons on them.
The Homeland Security "cigarette style" boats often have four 300 hp motors on them. Here is a link of the current roles of the CG in Southern California
martyn1075 posted 08-27-2012 02:27 AM ET (US)
Lizard Im not sure all I know is that in our situation we have a Federal Government that is situated in what they would consider the heart of Canada and they are the big bosses who make all our decisions for us. Well of course they don't but in many ways they do. Not all our bad but a large amount imo they have no need to bother let the people on this side "West Coast" British Columbia provincial government make the call. The topic is a prim example.
Sorry I don't mean to change the subject just a small point to correlate the two. For example our salmon fishery is controlled by people in an office thousands of miles away. I think the people who work in the industry up and down the coast of Vancouver make the call. Scientist and Biologists with major degrees who live and breath the ocean and actually live in the environment.
http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/alexandra_morton/2012/06/ dear-marine-harvest-shareholders-1.html
jimh posted 08-27-2012 08:35 AM ET (US)
At Sarnia, Ontario--the home port of this new 138-foot Canadian Coast Guard Service cutter--the border to the United States is marked by the St. Clair RIver. At that point the St. Clair River is not very wide. As you might expect, there is a bridge built between the USA and Canada, and, of course, it is built at the narrowest point in the river. The gap is so small that the bridge is not even a suspension bridge; it's a cantilever truss bridge. The two shores are only 850-feet apart. If this new cutter were laying abeam to the river and in the middle, the distance from the bow to the USA or the stern to Canada would only be about a length of a football field. It does seem to me to be a bit of overkill to patrol the border by water with a 138-foot ship at that point.
home Aside posted 08-27-2012 10:36 AM ET (US)
Dave Sutton, I don't believe the USCG and the Canadian CG have the same Mission if you will. I think it was in 2005 that the Canadian Coast Guard's association with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police put armed personnel in place.
The Canadian Coast Guard is not the Military/Law Enforcement entity that the USCG is in addition to search & rescue.
Pat
jimh posted 08-27-2012 11:14 AM ET (US)
My impression of the Canadian Coast Guard Service is the same as Pat's. The CCGS is a civil service, something like working for NOAA in the USA.
elaelap posted 08-27-2012 11:37 AM ET (US)
Hmmm...this year marks the 200th anniversity of the beginning of the War of 1812. The young USA declared war on the British Empire in an attempt to annex Canada, among other asserted reasons (most notably, at least by US historians, the impressment of American sailors by British naval vessels). Perhaps this is the beginning of Canadian rearmament in preparation for a retaliatory invasion.
Tony
martyn1075 posted 08-27-2012 11:56 AM ET (US)
jimh I agree it is way overkill. Not only the cost to make it and I understand it is one of three that is in production but just think of the staff to operate such a vessel. How about the gas and maintenance and the marina that can actually station a boat (s) this size. Are they really out there everyday patrolling and making a difference with a machine like this? I would like to see the numbers.
I know in Vancouver we are not likely to see gun wars gangs drug smuggling on a regular basis on the water but I feel the closure of the coast guard and its ONE! 40 or 45 foot cutter and staff of maybe ten? Im not sure, to be unjustified. They contribute they are important. We have seen a large amount of human smuggling on the rise but they usually come in way up on the North side of the island.
Martyn
jimh posted 08-27-2012 10:39 PM ET (US)
I think one reason these warships seem to be doing a lot of stopping for fuel may be due to their draft--they're typically rather deep draft vessels for the Great Lakes, where 23-foot is considered deep water in a navigable channel. Because of the deeper draft I suspect they're keeping the fuel on board down to a minimum to reduce their draft. This may account for the more frequent fuel stops.
wannabe posted 08-27-2012 11:03 PM ET (US)
Being from Toledo I got to see the Ville de Quebec this past weekend. The ships were really well received and really increased recreational boat traffic on the Maumee River this past weekend.
Many Whalers of all sizes were patrolling to keep the distance from the ships. From seventeen Montauks to the brand new 350 with triple Verados(300hp I think). A rib with a 50 cal. machine gun was protecting the Quebec.
Probably should have taken pics but I was busy dodging all the boats. Several block long lines to tour the ships.
Drew

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Author	Topic: Canadian Coast Guard Service Ups Ante on Ships on Great Lakes
jimh	posted 08-25-2012 01:03 PM ET (US) The Canadian Coast Guard Service has recently accepted a new HERO-class cutter from Halifax, Nova Scotia's IRVING SHIPBUILDING. The 42-meter-long CCGS PRIVATE ROBERTSON V.C. is on its way to its home port of Sarnia, Ontario. From Sarnia the vessel will be used in a joint program with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police for maritime security along the Great Lakes–St. Lawrence Seaway system. The particulars of the HERO-class can be seen at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero-class_patrol_vessels With a length of 42-meters or 138-feet, the CCGS PRIVATE ROBERTSON V.C. should be a rather imposing presence on the St. Clair River and Lake Huron. With an endurance of two-weeks at sea and a top speed of 29-MPH, the new cutter ought to be capable of catching any of the larger ships on the Great Lakes with ease. I don't think the USA's Homeland Security has a vessel of comparable size and speed on the Great Lakes. Perhaps it is time for the USA to assign a small aircraft carrier to patrol Lake Huron in order to keep up in the anti-terrorism efforts being conducted on our inland seas.
Dave Sutton	posted 08-25-2012 02:15 PM ET (US) Nice to see. The Canadians have not forgotten that search and rescue is their primary mission. In contrast we were boarded last week in Presque Isle by four armed men wearing police uniforms, for a "vessel safety check," which is all the USCG seems interested in on the Great Lakes. We informed them that their presence in a quantity of four overloaded our boat, to their bemusement. Glad to see Canada still appreciates their mission.--Dave .
Plotman	posted 08-25-2012 05:18 PM ET (US) One of my favorite Coast Guard boarding stories comes from my days of college sailing. The Naval Academy had a fleet of 44 foot sailboats, and they would host regattas on these boats. The Navy couldn't simply hand over a boat to a bunch of college kids from another school, so they always sent a "safety officer" along with us. One Saturday as we were en route to the race course, the Coasties pull along side and state their intention to board for a vessel safety check. The Navy officer aboard (I believe he was a full commander from the faculty) told the Petty Officer aboard the CG boat "I don't think so." The CG guy didn't like this, didn't believ this dude in a blue polo shirt was actually a Naval Officer, and threatened to stop us by force. It ended with a Navy Yard Patrol boat coming to chase off the CG boat. We found out later that it was a practical joke being played on a recently transferred CG crewman, who had no idea the blue sailboat was a US Navy vessel, and wasn't told this by his crew.
jimh	posted 08-26-2012 12:06 PM ET (US) Perhaps we can hold off on more USCG boarding stories in this thread and save 'em for another thread on that topic. I don't think the CCGS HERO-class vessels will be conducting too many routine safety inspections and boardings of small recreational boats. The HERO-class or formerly Mid-shore Patrol Vessel will be built to a total of nine ships. Five of these will be used in the Maritimes, Quebec, and Pacific regions of Canada as primary support vessels for Fisheries and Oceans Conservation missions. The other four, including CCGS PRIVATE ROBERTSON V.C. homeported in Sarnia, are to be employed to "enhance maritime security along the Great Lakes–St. Lawrence Seaway system." I suspect that search and rescue (SAR) missions will also be part of the vessel's duties. By the way, there has been a very unusual amount of warship traffic around Detroit this week. On Thursday the Canadian warship HMCS Ville de Québec (FFH 332) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMCS_Ville_de_Québec_(FFH_332) stopped briefly at Sterling Fuel docks in Windsor to take on fuel before departing for Toledo. Ohio. Also on Thursday the USA guided missile frigate USS DE WERT stopped for fuel just downstream of the Ambassador Bridge on the USA side and then departed for Toledo. www.freep.com http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_De_Wert_(FFG-45) With a draft of 25-feet the De Wert barely floated through the Welland canal locks. She has a projecting SONAR dome on her hull that was probably carefully protected. She also had to cut off some antennas from her top mast, which is normally projected 129-feet above the water line. The Welland canal vertical clearance is only 117-feet. See http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/FFG-60_schematic.jpg Toledo is currently hosting NAVY WEEK: http://www.toledoblade.com/local/2012/08/24/ Big-ships-herald-Toledo-s-Navy-Week.html On Saturday, the Canadian warship HMCS Moncton (MM 708) was downbound through the river: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMCS_Moncton_(MM_708) I am not sure where she was headed. I heard her exchange radio pleasantries with a recreational boat as she crossed Lake St. Clair.
jimh	posted 08-26-2012 12:43 PM ET (US) Today, Sunday, another warship HMCS Summerside (MM 711) downbound on Lake St. Clair. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMCS_Summerside_(MM_711) This is a war-ship-spotter's dream weekend.
Dave Sutton	posted 08-26-2012 05:03 PM ET (US) Been seeing a bunch of warships on Lake Huron, so thanks for letting us know why! The AIS has been fun. Dave .
whalerdude	posted 08-26-2012 11:13 PM ET (US) It's sister ship the HMCS Moncton was anchored about a quarter mile offshore in Lake Bluff IL where I live. that was quite interesting. It was dwarfed by the USS Dewert while they were both in Chicago by Navy Pier Last weekend for the war of 1812 Bicentennial celebration.
David Pendleton	posted 08-26-2012 11:26 PM ET (US) Rank does not matter in law-enforcement situations. You cannot "rank" yourself out of a violation.
martyn1075	posted 08-27-2012 01:02 AM ET (US) quote: The Canadians have not forgotten that search and rescue is their primary mission They don't seem to care about the guys on the westcoast. I live in Vancouver, Im not surprised and Im not impressed at all. Its hard to believe in a large city with more than five major marinas all within 15 miles of each other, two of the largest are based right at the station of the Coast Guard, not to mention the Yacht clubs, Sailing clubs that the coast guard that is central to the harbor is being pulled. It doesn't make much sense, or does it, where on earth are they going to get that kind of money to afford a ship like that. http://www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/SAR/Search-and-Rescue-BC http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/ protestors-fight-closure-of-vancouver-s-kitsilano-coast-guard-base-1. 930227 LINK
lizard	posted 08-27-2012 01:18 AM ET (US) Martyn- I don't know which part of the Left Coast you are talking about, but in So Cal, we have HEAVY patrols. On any given day, in a VERY small area, we have Lifeguards, Police, Coast Guard, Navy Patrol, Homeland Security, etc. Some days the fire power on the water is sobering. You should see the CG and Homeland Security vessels. WHO WOULD MESS WITH THEM? They have BIG AUTOMATIC weapons on them. The Homeland Security "cigarette style" boats often have four 300 hp motors on them. Here is a link of the current roles of the CG in Southern California
martyn1075	posted 08-27-2012 02:27 AM ET (US) Lizard Im not sure all I know is that in our situation we have a Federal Government that is situated in what they would consider the heart of Canada and they are the big bosses who make all our decisions for us. Well of course they don't but in many ways they do. Not all our bad but a large amount imo they have no need to bother let the people on this side "West Coast" British Columbia provincial government make the call. The topic is a prim example. Sorry I don't mean to change the subject just a small point to correlate the two. For example our salmon fishery is controlled by people in an office thousands of miles away. I think the people who work in the industry up and down the coast of Vancouver make the call. Scientist and Biologists with major degrees who live and breath the ocean and actually live in the environment. http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/alexandra_morton/2012/06/ dear-marine-harvest-shareholders-1.html
jimh	posted 08-27-2012 08:35 AM ET (US) At Sarnia, Ontario--the home port of this new 138-foot Canadian Coast Guard Service cutter--the border to the United States is marked by the St. Clair RIver. At that point the St. Clair River is not very wide. As you might expect, there is a bridge built between the USA and Canada, and, of course, it is built at the narrowest point in the river. The gap is so small that the bridge is not even a suspension bridge; it's a cantilever truss bridge. The two shores are only 850-feet apart. If this new cutter were laying abeam to the river and in the middle, the distance from the bow to the USA or the stern to Canada would only be about a length of a football field. It does seem to me to be a bit of overkill to patrol the border by water with a 138-foot ship at that point.
home Aside	posted 08-27-2012 10:36 AM ET (US) Dave Sutton, I don't believe the USCG and the Canadian CG have the same Mission if you will. I think it was in 2005 that the Canadian Coast Guard's association with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police put armed personnel in place. The Canadian Coast Guard is not the Military/Law Enforcement entity that the USCG is in addition to search & rescue. Pat
jimh	posted 08-27-2012 11:14 AM ET (US) My impression of the Canadian Coast Guard Service is the same as Pat's. The CCGS is a civil service, something like working for NOAA in the USA.
elaelap	posted 08-27-2012 11:37 AM ET (US) Hmmm...this year marks the 200th anniversity of the beginning of the War of 1812. The young USA declared war on the British Empire in an attempt to annex Canada, among other asserted reasons (most notably, at least by US historians, the impressment of American sailors by British naval vessels). Perhaps this is the beginning of Canadian rearmament in preparation for a retaliatory invasion. Tony
martyn1075	posted 08-27-2012 11:56 AM ET (US) jimh I agree it is way overkill. Not only the cost to make it and I understand it is one of three that is in production but just think of the staff to operate such a vessel. How about the gas and maintenance and the marina that can actually station a boat (s) this size. Are they really out there everyday patrolling and making a difference with a machine like this? I would like to see the numbers. I know in Vancouver we are not likely to see gun wars gangs drug smuggling on a regular basis on the water but I feel the closure of the coast guard and its ONE! 40 or 45 foot cutter and staff of maybe ten? Im not sure, to be unjustified. They contribute they are important. We have seen a large amount of human smuggling on the rise but they usually come in way up on the North side of the island. Martyn
jimh	posted 08-27-2012 10:39 PM ET (US) I think one reason these warships seem to be doing a lot of stopping for fuel may be due to their draft--they're typically rather deep draft vessels for the Great Lakes, where 23-foot is considered deep water in a navigable channel. Because of the deeper draft I suspect they're keeping the fuel on board down to a minimum to reduce their draft. This may account for the more frequent fuel stops.
wannabe	posted 08-27-2012 11:03 PM ET (US) Being from Toledo I got to see the Ville de Quebec this past weekend. The ships were really well received and really increased recreational boat traffic on the Maumee River this past weekend. Many Whalers of all sizes were patrolling to keep the distance from the ships. From seventeen Montauks to the brand new 350 with triple Verados(300hp I think). A rib with a 50 cal. machine gun was protecting the Quebec. Probably should have taken pics but I was busy dodging all the boats. Several block long lines to tour the ships. Drew