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Author Topic:   Axial Four-cycle Engine

weekendwarrior posted 02-27-2013 07:02 PM ET (US)
Will [the made-in-New-Zealand, DUKE, axial four-cycle engine] be the next big leap in outboard four-cycle engine technology and other applications? Mostly I just thought this was cool. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njb5DqsC9L0&NR=1&feature=endscreen

jimh posted 02-28-2013 03:47 PM ET (US)
Is it possible to state in a sentence or two what the claimed innovation in four-cycle outboard engines will be? I would rather first hear about the general nature of the innovation in four-cycle outboard engines in a narrative before investing the time to watch a motion picture presentation about it.
Commander Coo1 posted 02-28-2013 07:32 PM ET (US)
The engine in the presentation is an "axial" engine. It has 5 cylinders and the only thing i could really compare its design to is that of a revolver in a pistol. They claim that there extremely little vibration, and size and weight are decreased by about 30% compared to a conventional 4-stroke that uses a crankshaft, camshafts, and valves. It is a very interesting design. I would like to see how they perform in a real world environment.
The 3 liter engine produces 215hp and 250ftlbs of torque both rated at 4500RPM and a BSFC of .42-lbs/HP-hour.
Peter posted 02-28-2013 08:40 PM ET (US)
What's old is new -- in some way. See www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/POWER/unusualICeng/axial-ICeng/axial-IC. htm#sm . Note reference to the Duke engine at the end.
weekendwarrior posted 03-01-2013 10:37 AM ET (US)
Of interesting note is the way they achieve all four cycles completely without valves. The cylinders rotate opposite the crank shaft and the cylinders slide past ports in the head. Only three spark plugs are required for operation of the five cylinders. It is definitely innovative,. I wonder how they would perform and hold up in real-world use.
jimh posted 03-01-2013 12:58 PM ET (US)
Thanks for the information. Now that I understand that the DUKE four-cycle axial engine is a totally new design that features:
--smaller size
--lighter weight
--smoother running
--freedom from vibration
--flexibility in fuels used
--no power loss from cam shafts or valves
I am much more inclined to watch the ten-minute long video at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njb5DqsC9L0&NR=1&feature=endscreen
even though it is rather low resolution and gives only a fuzzy view of the product.
jimh posted 03-01-2013 01:38 PM ET (US)
On a totally uninformed, non-expert, unqualified assessment, it looks to me like the durability and reliability of the sliding seals between the rotating cylinders and the stationary cylinder head would be one of the biggest concerns.
weekendwarrior posted 03-01-2013 02:39 PM ET (US)
Good point. There are also large sliding surfaces in the Wankel rotary engine and somehow they stay lubed and seem to last. Maybe this one works similar?
Plotman posted 03-01-2013 06:13 PM ET (US)
There has been a better "mousetrap" in the internal combustion world for decades in the form of the Wankel engine. As mentioned above, problems with the seals were a huge problem with long-term reliability. They are by and large fixed, but very few of us are driving cars or boats with wankel engines.
Chuck Tribolet posted 03-02-2013 09:33 AM ET (US)
The Wankel also had problems meeting emissions requirements.
And noisy. The port on a Wankel open very quickly (a fraction
of a revolution as opposed to 20% of a rev for a traditional
four-stroke) and so sends something very close to a square
wave pulse down the exhaust. An RX-7 with an open exhaust
is louder than any V8.

Chuck
tedious posted 03-02-2013 09:36 AM ET (US)
Regarding the Wankel and seeming to last, I know that originally they had trouble with the apex seals - don't know if that was solved eventually.
Tim
yankee posted 03-02-2013 04:02 PM ET (US)
I owned one of those Wankel engines for four years in a Mazda. It would not start in cold weather. It sucked fuel like crazy. And there were seal problems. If it had not been for the gas prices and EPA the in the 1970's we would have had those forced down our throats so the big-three could save a few bucks on the valves and pistons.
The Duke engine is cool but I did not see anything about fuel burn or [fuel efficiency]. That seal between the cylinder and head looked questionable. That wobble plate is not an efficient means to transfer power.
I like the holy grail of internal combustion, the opposed-piston opposed cylinder engine. It has about one-third as many parts and is 20-percent more efficient.
http://www.howstuffworks.com/opposed-piston-opposed-cylinder-engine.htm

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Author	Topic: Axial Four-cycle Engine
weekendwarrior	posted 02-27-2013 07:02 PM ET (US) Will [the made-in-New-Zealand, DUKE, axial four-cycle engine] be the next big leap in outboard four-cycle engine technology and other applications? Mostly I just thought this was cool. :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njb5DqsC9L0&NR=1&feature=endscreen
jimh	posted 02-28-2013 03:47 PM ET (US) Is it possible to state in a sentence or two what the claimed innovation in four-cycle outboard engines will be? I would rather first hear about the general nature of the innovation in four-cycle outboard engines in a narrative before investing the time to watch a motion picture presentation about it.
Commander Coo1	posted 02-28-2013 07:32 PM ET (US) The engine in the presentation is an "axial" engine. It has 5 cylinders and the only thing i could really compare its design to is that of a revolver in a pistol. They claim that there extremely little vibration, and size and weight are decreased by about 30% compared to a conventional 4-stroke that uses a crankshaft, camshafts, and valves. It is a very interesting design. I would like to see how they perform in a real world environment. The 3 liter engine produces 215hp and 250ftlbs of torque both rated at 4500RPM and a BSFC of .42-lbs/HP-hour.
Peter	posted 02-28-2013 08:40 PM ET (US) What's old is new -- in some way. See www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/POWER/unusualICeng/axial-ICeng/axial-IC. htm#sm . Note reference to the Duke engine at the end.
weekendwarrior	posted 03-01-2013 10:37 AM ET (US) Of interesting note is the way they achieve all four cycles completely without valves. The cylinders rotate opposite the crank shaft and the cylinders slide past ports in the head. Only three spark plugs are required for operation of the five cylinders. It is definitely innovative,. I wonder how they would perform and hold up in real-world use.
jimh	posted 03-01-2013 12:58 PM ET (US) Thanks for the information. Now that I understand that the DUKE four-cycle axial engine is a totally new design that features: --smaller size --lighter weight --smoother running --freedom from vibration --flexibility in fuels used --no power loss from cam shafts or valves I am much more inclined to watch the ten-minute long video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njb5DqsC9L0&NR=1&feature=endscreen even though it is rather low resolution and gives only a fuzzy view of the product.
jimh	posted 03-01-2013 01:38 PM ET (US) On a totally uninformed, non-expert, unqualified assessment, it looks to me like the durability and reliability of the sliding seals between the rotating cylinders and the stationary cylinder head would be one of the biggest concerns.
weekendwarrior	posted 03-01-2013 02:39 PM ET (US) Good point. There are also large sliding surfaces in the Wankel rotary engine and somehow they stay lubed and seem to last. Maybe this one works similar?
Plotman	posted 03-01-2013 06:13 PM ET (US) There has been a better "mousetrap" in the internal combustion world for decades in the form of the Wankel engine. As mentioned above, problems with the seals were a huge problem with long-term reliability. They are by and large fixed, but very few of us are driving cars or boats with wankel engines.
Chuck Tribolet	posted 03-02-2013 09:33 AM ET (US) The Wankel also had problems meeting emissions requirements. And noisy. The port on a Wankel open very quickly (a fraction of a revolution as opposed to 20% of a rev for a traditional four-stroke) and so sends something very close to a square wave pulse down the exhaust. An RX-7 with an open exhaust is louder than any V8. Chuck
tedious	posted 03-02-2013 09:36 AM ET (US) Regarding the Wankel and seeming to last, I know that originally they had trouble with the apex seals - don't know if that was solved eventually. Tim
yankee	posted 03-02-2013 04:02 PM ET (US) I owned one of those Wankel engines for four years in a Mazda. It would not start in cold weather. It sucked fuel like crazy. And there were seal problems. If it had not been for the gas prices and EPA the in the 1970's we would have had those forced down our throats so the big-three could save a few bucks on the valves and pistons. The Duke engine is cool but I did not see anything about fuel burn or [fuel efficiency]. That seal between the cylinder and head looked questionable. That wobble plate is not an efficient means to transfer power. I like the holy grail of internal combustion, the opposed-piston opposed cylinder engine. It has about one-third as many parts and is 20-percent more efficient. http://www.howstuffworks.com/opposed-piston-opposed-cylinder-engine.htm