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Author Topic:   Bermuda Whaler - a high quality problem

shindog107 posted 10-29-2013 02:32 PM ET (US)
There are lots of whalers in Bermuda but not many for sale. Bringing a used one to the island means expensive shipping - $3,500 for my old Montauk. Given the cost to ship even a small whaler, what is the smallest if any whaler you would drive across the Atlantic from North Carolina to Bermuda - 800nm or so?
I was told that a couple of guys did it in a 22 ft center console from NJ/NY but I am not sure I believe the story.

prj posted 10-29-2013 03:29 PM ET (US)
An 18 foot Outrage.
Fuel capacity would be a challenge, of course. A modern outboard can achieve, what? 5 mpg on an 18 footer? 160 gallons required with 63 in the belly fuel tank. So you'll need another 100 gallons of fuel minimum. Screw the conservative rules for 1/3 reserve, you're taking a small boat one way to Bermuda.
Great Adventure for an immortal youngster. Are you? 32 hours at 25 mph, just you and a strong capable buddy you have confidence in.
And don't let the naysayers and nancies talk you out of it. The USCG isn't spending millions upon millions of dollars solely to provide me with "courtesy safety checks" on a regular basis. If it turns to hell on you out there, they can put their high performance, high dollar assets through their paces.
Buckda posted 10-29-2013 04:56 PM ET (US)
Interesting question. I think you might be a little nuts, but I can appreciate that in a person.
If I were to consider crossing under power rather than shipping, my first thought is that I would insist on a twin engine rig with new engines with at least 20 hours on them, but less than 50 hours on them – fully equipped with the electronics and navigation equipment you intend to use. I would want a 25 Outrage or, perhaps preferably, a 25 Revenge .…minimum A 25’ Revenge HardTop would be nice. I’d probably want to be in a 27 Offshore.
Must have’s would include a very large insurance policy specific to the trip, a satellite phone, an offshore rated life raft with EPIRB, file a float plan with the USCG and the equivalent agency in Bermuda, etc. etc. etc. I’d want to cross in the company of a much larger boat that had already done the crossing before with a captain I trusted and some kind of written, binding agreement that they would shadow me (within visual range) along the trip and render aid if requested.
Essentially, for me at least, the logistics, etc. for such a trip would be far more expensive than just shipping the boat…that’s not to say that given the time and $$resources, I wouldn’t be interested in doing it for the adventure of it.
As stated the biggest challenge beyond fatigue, really is fuel. However, with the theoretical efficiency of some new engines, you might be able to use an autopilot and “idle” the whole way. At 10 mpg – which is the best you could hope for at an idle speed on one engine, you could probably see 800 miles over the open water on 140 gallons of fuel (the capacity on a 25’ Classic Whaler hull). I can’t imagine the seasickness from trolling more than 800 miles at 6 mph in a non-displacement hull vessel on the open ocean! That’s about 5 days, day and night. You could shorten that considerably if you had a shadow boat that would serve as a fuel tanker with a few hundred extra gallons of gas for you…of course, the challenge would be to refuel in a heaving sea state in the middle of the ocean, but that’s not impossible, by any means – and is the route I’d want to go. If a yacht brokerage were running a big cruiser over to Bermuda for delivery to new owners – that might be an opportunity to explore for a chase boat/fuel tanker/mother ship.
Also consider that you’d be going “heavy”. You have to pack freshwater, food and spare parts. Again, some of that could be berthed aboard a chase boat/mother ship.
I’d look for a boat with sturdy outriggers and set them up with stabilizers for when I need to stop the boat for rest. Deploy a good sea anchor and those lateral stabilizers and you might be able to get some good rest in a forward cuddy – or better yet, just crawl aboard the mother ship for a few hours of rest in a stateroom, so long as the seas aren’t really bad. Plan for at least three days and two mid-trip refuelings.
…just some idle musings on this idea. Let us know if you get more serious and I’ll try to think of more things to help.
OMCrobert posted 10-29-2013 05:22 PM ET (US)
Go to a sailboat cruiser forum and find someone making the trip. Pay the to tow it across. If you make the trip then invest in buy another whaler to tow over to resell once in Bermuda.
Binkster posted 10-29-2013 06:03 PM ET (US)
Dave, don't forget you need to cross the Gulf Stream that is running south to north at 3-6mph and is pretty wide that far north.
rich
Buckda posted 10-29-2013 06:09 PM ET (US)
I'd also add that I wouldn't really trust anyone else to set up the boat for me...meaning I'd have to spend a bit of time on the mainland supplying/equipping the boat and then putting it through a stress test. All that costs money.
If the idea is to avoid $3500 in shipping costs, forgetaboutit. You will eat that in fuel and supplies and equipment..and then some.
Buckda posted 10-29-2013 06:12 PM ET (US)
Your e-mail is not available in your profile...but I'd like to send you an excel spreadsheet I've been working on that might help you plan for fuel and oil for such a trip. It includes a theoretical max range calculation that would enable you to run a combination of "efficient cruise" and max economy idle to provide you with a way to calculate the longest you will be able to run on plane before having to drop to idle. It is set up using BSFC and GPH calcuations rather than statute miles per gallon, which should also help.
As Binkie mentions - you would also have to cross the Gulf Stream. Rougher water, and moving water - all adds distance you need to travel through the water to achieve the distance over the water.
Dave Sutton posted 10-29-2013 06:40 PM ET (US)
Where did you get your shipping cost figure?
You can ship a ro-ro shipment (roll on, roll off) for much less than $3000.
Check:
http://www.bcl.bm/
Dave
.
crabby posted 10-29-2013 07:40 PM ET (US)
I like the idea of a tow.
If you do it yourself put a small kicker alongside the main engine and use it as much as possible.
Getting across the gulfstream could be the biggest challenge if leaving from a northern port.
Al Grover took one of his 23 foot inboard diesel powered dories across the Atlantic from Freeport, NY but used a kicker engine and a free ride from the Gulfstream most of the way.
moretrench1 posted 10-30-2013 02:05 PM ET (US)
If the Bahama destination had a Sea Tow franchise, the trip could made on 1/2 the calculated fuel consumption......
You could almost call Sea Tow before you departed and tell them when and where you're going to run empty.

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Author	Topic: Bermuda Whaler - a high quality problem
shindog107	posted 10-29-2013 02:32 PM ET (US) There are lots of whalers in Bermuda but not many for sale. Bringing a used one to the island means expensive shipping - $3,500 for my old Montauk. Given the cost to ship even a small whaler, what is the smallest if any whaler you would drive across the Atlantic from North Carolina to Bermuda - 800nm or so? I was told that a couple of guys did it in a 22 ft center console from NJ/NY but I am not sure I believe the story.
prj	posted 10-29-2013 03:29 PM ET (US) An 18 foot Outrage. Fuel capacity would be a challenge, of course. A modern outboard can achieve, what? 5 mpg on an 18 footer? 160 gallons required with 63 in the belly fuel tank. So you'll need another 100 gallons of fuel minimum. Screw the conservative rules for 1/3 reserve, you're taking a small boat one way to Bermuda. Great Adventure for an immortal youngster. Are you? 32 hours at 25 mph, just you and a strong capable buddy you have confidence in. And don't let the naysayers and nancies talk you out of it. The USCG isn't spending millions upon millions of dollars solely to provide me with "courtesy safety checks" on a regular basis. If it turns to hell on you out there, they can put their high performance, high dollar assets through their paces.
Buckda	posted 10-29-2013 04:56 PM ET (US) Interesting question. I think you might be a little nuts, but I can appreciate that in a person. If I were to consider crossing under power rather than shipping, my first thought is that I would insist on a twin engine rig with new engines with at least 20 hours on them, but less than 50 hours on them – fully equipped with the electronics and navigation equipment you intend to use. I would want a 25 Outrage or, perhaps preferably, a 25 Revenge .…minimum A 25’ Revenge HardTop would be nice. I’d probably want to be in a 27 Offshore. Must have’s would include a very large insurance policy specific to the trip, a satellite phone, an offshore rated life raft with EPIRB, file a float plan with the USCG and the equivalent agency in Bermuda, etc. etc. etc. I’d want to cross in the company of a much larger boat that had already done the crossing before with a captain I trusted and some kind of written, binding agreement that they would shadow me (within visual range) along the trip and render aid if requested. Essentially, for me at least, the logistics, etc. for such a trip would be far more expensive than just shipping the boat…that’s not to say that given the time and $$resources, I wouldn’t be interested in doing it for the adventure of it. As stated the biggest challenge beyond fatigue, really is fuel. However, with the theoretical efficiency of some new engines, you might be able to use an autopilot and “idle” the whole way. At 10 mpg – which is the best you could hope for at an idle speed on one engine, you could probably see 800 miles over the open water on 140 gallons of fuel (the capacity on a 25’ Classic Whaler hull). I can’t imagine the seasickness from trolling more than 800 miles at 6 mph in a non-displacement hull vessel on the open ocean! That’s about 5 days, day and night. You could shorten that considerably if you had a shadow boat that would serve as a fuel tanker with a few hundred extra gallons of gas for you…of course, the challenge would be to refuel in a heaving sea state in the middle of the ocean, but that’s not impossible, by any means – and is the route I’d want to go. If a yacht brokerage were running a big cruiser over to Bermuda for delivery to new owners – that might be an opportunity to explore for a chase boat/fuel tanker/mother ship. Also consider that you’d be going “heavy”. You have to pack freshwater, food and spare parts. Again, some of that could be berthed aboard a chase boat/mother ship. I’d look for a boat with sturdy outriggers and set them up with stabilizers for when I need to stop the boat for rest. Deploy a good sea anchor and those lateral stabilizers and you might be able to get some good rest in a forward cuddy – or better yet, just crawl aboard the mother ship for a few hours of rest in a stateroom, so long as the seas aren’t really bad. Plan for at least three days and two mid-trip refuelings. …just some idle musings on this idea. Let us know if you get more serious and I’ll try to think of more things to help.
OMCrobert	posted 10-29-2013 05:22 PM ET (US) Go to a sailboat cruiser forum and find someone making the trip. Pay the to tow it across. If you make the trip then invest in buy another whaler to tow over to resell once in Bermuda.
Binkster	posted 10-29-2013 06:03 PM ET (US) Dave, don't forget you need to cross the Gulf Stream that is running south to north at 3-6mph and is pretty wide that far north. rich
Buckda	posted 10-29-2013 06:09 PM ET (US) I'd also add that I wouldn't really trust anyone else to set up the boat for me...meaning I'd have to spend a bit of time on the mainland supplying/equipping the boat and then putting it through a stress test. All that costs money. If the idea is to avoid $3500 in shipping costs, forgetaboutit. You will eat that in fuel and supplies and equipment..and then some.
Buckda	posted 10-29-2013 06:12 PM ET (US) Your e-mail is not available in your profile...but I'd like to send you an excel spreadsheet I've been working on that might help you plan for fuel and oil for such a trip. It includes a theoretical max range calculation that would enable you to run a combination of "efficient cruise" and max economy idle to provide you with a way to calculate the longest you will be able to run on plane before having to drop to idle. It is set up using BSFC and GPH calcuations rather than statute miles per gallon, which should also help. As Binkie mentions - you would also have to cross the Gulf Stream. Rougher water, and moving water - all adds distance you need to travel through the water to achieve the distance over the water.
Dave Sutton	posted 10-29-2013 06:40 PM ET (US) Where did you get your shipping cost figure? You can ship a ro-ro shipment (roll on, roll off) for much less than $3000. Check: http://www.bcl.bm/ Dave .
crabby	posted 10-29-2013 07:40 PM ET (US) I like the idea of a tow. If you do it yourself put a small kicker alongside the main engine and use it as much as possible. Getting across the gulfstream could be the biggest challenge if leaving from a northern port. Al Grover took one of his 23 foot inboard diesel powered dories across the Atlantic from Freeport, NY but used a kicker engine and a free ride from the Gulfstream most of the way.
moretrench1	posted 10-30-2013 02:05 PM ET (US) If the Bahama destination had a Sea Tow franchise, the trip could made on 1/2 the calculated fuel consumption...... You could almost call Sea Tow before you departed and tell them when and where you're going to run empty.