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Author Topic:   Brunswick's New Outboards

jimh posted 11-15-2013 02:29 PM ET (US)
In a recent presentation to Wall Street, Brunswick told prospective investors about their plans for future outboard engines. They made the following statements:

quote:
Mercury’s outboard product line will be comprehensively upgraded with new, more cost-effective architectures and product-refresh programs.
They also offered these specifics. In regard to the Brunswuck product line branded as FOURSTROKE (not VERADO), investors were told to expect to see Brunswick "progressively expand the family, leveraging the attributes and success of the 150hp."
There has already been a great deal of purely speculative suggestions that the 150-HP FOURSTROKE would become the basis of a new series of engines for Brunswick. This announcement by Brunswick of precisely that approach seems to confirm those speculations.
Brunswick also appears to completely neglect their OptiMax brand of engines in the presentation. The word "OptiMax" is never mentioned anywhere, and, of course, that means it is not mentioned in these forward thinking statements. I think the OptiMax engines certainly constitute a category or architecture of engines, and to see no mention of them at all in terms of future plans is a bit startling.
The VERADO engine is specifically mentioned, but Brunswick says here it will only "continue to enhance world’s best performing four-stroke and only production supercharged outboard engine."
In terms of being cost-effective (for the manufacturer) is seems like both the OptiMax and the VERADO architecture are the antithesis of cost-effective. The OptiMax requires licensing of intellectual property from Orbital, the developer of the fundamental combustion process used in the OptiMax. The OptiMax also needs a lot of outboard gear on the engine: an air compressor, a compressed air distribution system, air injectors, and pressure regulators. None of that is needed on the new FOURSTROKE (not VERADO). The VERADO line needs very precision-made superchargers, a complicated waste-gate regulator, and dry-sump lubrication. Those all sound like expensive components. On the basis of an emphasis on "cost-effective" manufacturing, I do not think Brunswick will be turning to OptiMax as the main platform, nor will it develop VERADO into new applications. It seems clear that the FOURSTROKE (not VERADO) architecture will be the basis for any new engines from Brunswick.
Brunswick says that among their "technology development advancements" has been "customer-driven design and development." I don't quite see this as a technology development, but rather just common sense.

jcdawg83 posted 11-15-2013 04:25 PM ET (US)
I am far from an expert, but it appears to me that Mercury engines are a lot like high end European automobiles. They have some very highly engineered systems which create great performance. Unfortunately, these high tech/highly engineered systems also create a lot of opportunities for failure not found in simpler engines.
Supercharging and compressed air systems are impressive technology, but in the harsh unforgiving world of marine outboard engines, those systems seem to open a lot of chances for failures. I also imagine the repair of those systems is rather costly compared to simpler engines.
In my opinion, performance is important, but it is somewhat secondary to reliability and long life in an expensive outboard engine.
martyn1075 posted 11-15-2013 05:21 PM ET (US)
I don't see at as startling at all. It will also mean good news for the Etec company that currently sell what I like to call a hybrid engine but realistically its a two stroke by nature. I feel the Optimax is similar and is why they are competitors.
The reason why Im not startled and have speculated for a few years that OPtimax was going to be dropped is because clearly people as a majority have made up their minds to buy a fourstroke. When you sell a boat you tend to hear "does it have a fourstroke?' It doesn't make it the better choice necessarily but the popular one it does. When Mercury made the 150 Four Stroke they claimed power and wight of a two stroke but a four stroke by nature.
In other words end of road Optimax, where does that leave the Otimax? It essentially just made better and more current Optimax. Its also cheaper than the high end top producing four strokes like Yamaha or Honda etc.
The new series 150 Fourstroke has far better potential to sell as an engine only for other boaters to re-power there non Brunswick made boats. The Optimax did not. Lastly over many years the Optimax had a bad reputation until most recent models 2006 onwards were vastly improved and drastically more stable. They are now very good reliable gas efficient engines. Unfortunately their timing was off due to the market turing over to the more popular choice and that is the Four stroke. This is a wise decision if they truly develop the new series of Four Strokes. Maybe an outside chance to keep the larger Optimax motors like the 250 pro. Apparently they do sell quite a number of those engines to the bass crowd.
Martyn

Jefecinco posted 11-15-2013 07:19 PM ET (US)
JC,
In reality the reliability of the supercharged Verado engine family has been excellent. These engines were designed from the start to be supercharged. They are not modified naturally aspirated engines hot rodded to produce vast horsepower above their design output.
The modern purpose designed supercharged engine presents no more opportunities for failure than any other engine except for having additional parts which appear to have no higher tendency to fail than other parts.
Perhaps you have something that indicates otherwise.
Butch
phatwhaler posted 11-15-2013 08:04 PM ET (US)
How much could the licensing from Orbital cost at this point. They're probably taking what Mercury is willing to give them.
jimh posted 11-15-2013 11:08 PM ET (US)
I completely agree: the VERADO supercharger has been very reliable, as has the whole power head. The only repair problem with the VERADO seems to be caused by it making too much power; the gear case had to revised twice to get a design that could handle all the power produced by the VERADO engine.
My point was the VERADO is an expensive engine to manufacture, and in the marketplace there are many competitors who are selling their engines at prices that may be below what Brunswick anticipated the VERADO would sell, so market competition constrains the margins on the VERADO. This is why Brunswick says that it must develop more cost-effective technology in its new engine lines. Brunswick could not have made this much clearer; read the statement from their presentation.
jimh posted 11-15-2013 11:11 PM ET (US)
The license fee to Orbital; that has to be so secret it is locked in a safe in the CEO's office. I have never heard any figure mentioned. It could have been a great deal--for either Orbital or Brunswick. No one knows. But I think it is safe to say that Brunswick pays Orbital, not the other way around.
Mambo Minnow posted 11-16-2013 11:23 AM ET (US)
Excellent news, thanks for sharing Jim. I have been waiting for this news before making a final re-power decision. An upgraded [engine based on the 150-HP FOURSTROKE not VERADO] in the 200- to 225-HP range is exactly what I was waiting for. Perhaps we will hear and see more at the Miami Boat Show in February.
jimh posted 11-16-2013 11:43 AM ET (US)
I don't see a new engine in a few months. If there were significant new product on a very near time horizon, Brunswick would be telling investors about them. For example, when the VERADO was being developed Brunswick told investors all about it in detail in presentations it made every three months. In this latest presentation they just announced that there will be new outboards, but really gave no indication of when. If the new outboards were imminent, investors would have likely been told about them in more precise terms of time.
Also, I don't see how the 150-HP engine can be increased to 225-HP just by waving a magic wand. An increase in power of a ratio of 1.5:1 seems like a rather large increase, and one would think that something significant would have to be changed in the engine to get so much extra power from it.
jimh posted 11-16-2013 12:04 PM ET (US)
Brunswick said that their new products will be developed by "customer-driven" new technology. In the presentation to investors about Brunswick marine engines, the following points were presented as goals for the new products under development:
--extreme reliability
--quality
--durability
Those three terms sounded familiar to me. I had heard them before. I searched my files to see if I could discover where I heard them. I found the answer in a 2001 white paper about the development of the E-TEC engine. The E-TEC was designed based on customer input from surveys that told Evinrude what was desirable in an outboard engine. Here is an excerpt from that 12-year-old document:

quote:
Outboard consumer surveys, conducted around the world in 2001, were commissioned to gauge if the typical outboard owner’s requirements had changed. The results were a little surprising to many of the older marine engineers. In order of preference, the modern outboard owner wanted
1. DQR - Dependability, Quality and Reliability
2. Ease of Maintenance
3. Easy starting
4. Performance
5. Economy
6. Style/appearance

Cf.: http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/IAME44-1_e-tec.pdf

It seems that not much has changed in 12 years. Apparently what boaters find important is dependability, quality, and reliability, above all else.
martyn1075 posted 11-16-2013 01:05 PM ET (US)
Its true buyers want dependability, quality, and reliability, however when spending their hard earned money majority put it towards a FourStroke brand. Thats the reality of the market.
Martyn
Mambo Minnow posted 11-16-2013 02:44 PM ET (US)
If Yamaha can get 200-HP out of a 2.8-liter, four-cylinder block, I don't see why Mercury can not get 200-HP out of a 3.0-liter four-cylinder.
Of course, the Japanese use DOHC and the Mercury is a SOHC but multiple valves per cylinder might be one way. The Verado engines from 150- to 300-HP use the same block - it's mostly a matter of software that derives different horsepower out of a 1.6-liter supercharged block.
It is most likely we will next see a Mercury Fourstroke 175-HP model.
martyn1075 posted 11-16-2013 03:22 PM ET (US)
I think "progressively expand the family, leveraging the attributes and success of the 150hp" means it is far more likely that we'll see a 3.0L 135 HP Mercury FourStroke than a 200 or 225 HP model built on the same 4-cylinder, 8-valve configuration. A 200 or 225 HP model in that same configuration, even if they could get 200 or 225 HP out of it, cuts completely against the Mercury advertising hype about high-displacement, low-HP. Given that Yamaha's 3.3L V6 F225 is a weak motor at best, a 4-cylinder, 3.0-liter 225 would be even weaker.
If they keep the same HP to displacement ratio, they would need a 4.5-liter straight six to get 225-HP. That would probably be the tallest production outboard ever made. Besides possible fit problems on re-power applications, I wonder how many fisherman would be happy to try to fish around that.
jimh posted 11-16-2013 04:42 PM ET (US)
In the VERADO supercharger engine you can dial up any horsepower you want by controlling the boost pressure.
The Yamaha engine uses variable valve timing or cam phasing to get enhanced performance. Mercury's new FOURSTROKE (not VERADO) engine does not use variable valve timing. The lack of that performance-boosting valve design makes me think that it will be harder to get the additional horsepower from the basic engine block with the same displacement.
King PV posted 11-17-2013 03:30 PM ET (US)
May I interject a thought that no one has come up with yet? About two years ago, I had a conversation with "a knowledgable Mercury Employee" who mentioned that Mercury would be looking at streamlining their product line by utilizing the then new 150 FOURSTROKE (not VERADO) engine in other horsepower ranges. Everyone here is thinking of pushing the limits and making 175 and 200-HP versions, and up. I would suggest the following:
Lool at the 75-, 90-, and 115-HP FOURSTROKE [Veradito engines] Mercury has now. These are the four-cylinder, EFI, non-supercharged, non-[DTS] [based on the VERADO] engines that have been quite successful for Mercury up to this date. However, I would suggest that although they are successful, they are still fairly large and should be reduced in size at least, if Mercury were to improve them in any way. Go look at the 75-HP version and I'd think you'd agree that these engines are, well, HUGE!
If Mercury is thinking of using another line of power and making these particular engines better--lessening Verado usage perhaps--then lets talk about making a three-cylinder version of the new four-cylinder 150. Now you can have a great engine, smaller in size and weight and not pushing the HP curve such as you may by trying to make a 150 into something it isn't! Or, perhaps can't be!
Jefecinco posted 11-17-2013 05:10 PM ET (US)
It's not unusual for an introductory engine such as the new Mercury 150 to be very conservatively rated. In later iterations the same engine with tweaks to the ECU and/or bolt on items such as manifolds or injectors are rated at higher HP. Unlike the Verado the increases are not dramatic. The same supercharged Verado L4 engine has been sold in 135, 150, 175 and 200 HP versions.
Butch
Peter posted 11-18-2013 07:50 AM ET (US)
On page 38 of the presentation I found the following statement of interest with respect to the topic Key Competitive Issues and Consumer Preferences:
"Small but growing influence of low-cost, two-stroke outboards" (emphasis added).
jimh posted 11-18-2013 09:07 AM ET (US)
There is no doubt that Brunwick will be developing new Mercury-brand outboard engines based on the technology they used in the 150-HP FOURSTROKE (not VERADO) engine. Let's review the technology shift:
ABANDON VERADO ELEMENTS LIKE
--digital throttle and shift
--supercharging
--new engine mounting, tilting, and steering systems
--power steering
--dry sump lubrication
--long-bolt Formula-One race engine block, heads, lowers
--high-strength piston, rods, crankshaft, and bearings
Instead the new engine will revert to much simpler, much less advanced technology which will then use much less expensive components in the engine to make if more "cost effective" for Brunswick to manufacture. That means:
REVERT TO OLDER TECHNOLOGY LIKE
--mechanically linked throttle and shift
--naturally aspirated induction
--old-style engine mount, engine tilt, and engine steering
--no power steering
--conventional wet sump lubrication
--conventional cast block with bolt-on heads and lowers
--lower strength pistons, rods, crankshaft, and bearing
We can expect to see, perhaps sometime in 2014, a new engine from Brunswick that will have all the technology of the four-stroke-power-cycle engine that was being bought from Yamaha in 2002 and re-sold under the Mercury brand. The one differentiator will be that these new engines will have SmartCraft, continuing the isolation of Mercury-brand engines from the rest of the outboard manufacturers who are now all using NMEA-2000. We have really come a long way in 14-years.
OMCrobert posted 11-18-2013 03:23 PM ET (US)
The four stroke market is the future and the price on new boats is so very high I suspect that they are creating a separate engine line to replace to replace the Optimax.
They might keep the Verado and come out with a simple four stroke to take the repower market over like they are currently doing with the new 150hp Four Stroke 3.0 liter. I did not read anything about the Verado going away.
I say the four stroke market is the future because just about every major boat company only offers four strokes.

Sailfish
Grady White
Regulator
Boston Whaler
Key West
Yellowfin
Intrepid
Contender
Edgewater

The new 150hp has proven so far to be a great repower engine and I suspect that will be the focus. I feel that we as boaters need a cheaper alternative for repowers vs engines with DTS. Yamaha is currently doing the same thing as they unveiled they were keeping the 3.6 liter 250hp Four Stroke with cable controls in addition to the offering of their new 4.2 liter SHO/Offshore series.
jimh posted 11-18-2013 03:33 PM ET (US)
Brunswick has clearly said: The VERADO will continue. The new engines to come will be four-stroke-power-cycle engines based on their new 150-HP FOURSTROKE (not VERADO).
OMCRobert says:

quote:
[Brunswuck] might keep the Verado and come out with a simple four stroke...
It it very good to know you agree with Brunswick on what they will be doing with their engine development in the near future.
The market for four-stroke-power-cycle outboard engines is extremely crowded. The following manufacturers compete in four-stroke-power-cycle outboard engine manufacturing for sale in the USA and Canada:
--Brunswick
--Yamaha
--Honda
--Suzuki
Without the benefit of careful research, I think that Brunswick is the smallest of those corporations, if one considers the global business of all four.
OMCrobert posted 11-18-2013 03:55 PM ET (US)
I would agree that Brunswick is the smallest corporation out of those but it is most likely the largest or second largest outboard engine builder as Suzuki and Honda have very little market share in the OB global market.
Sounds like Brunswick is dropping the 2 stroke DFI line up in favor of a new simple Four Stroke line up.
Brunswick is a successful corporation so I suspect they know what customers want and that appears to be Four Strokes.
Yamaha and Brunswick would not abandon the two stroke DFI market unless it was dying. Combine that aspect along with the fact that boat builders only offer four strokes any more solidifies that fact that Four Strokes are the future.
martyn1075 posted 11-21-2013 03:47 PM ET (US)
For me it just seems like the new 150 Four Stroke technology is just a new modern Optimax replacement. Given the reality of buyers wanting Four strokes based on desire not necessarily better overall motor, I think its safe to say this is the case. Also how many Verados or Optimax engines are truly sold as units without the purchase of a new Boston Whaler? The other companies have done well in that regard so this new engine Mercury offers gives them a chance to compete this way I think. I understand its cheaper than a Verado. A 210 Montuak at 2500 lbs with this engine can achieve 5 mpg! Thats really impressive obviously. We have also seen it added to a classic 22 Outrage with good results as well.

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Author	Topic: Brunswick's New Outboards
jimh	posted 11-15-2013 02:29 PM ET (US) In a recent presentation to Wall Street, Brunswick told prospective investors about their plans for future outboard engines. They made the following statements: quote: Mercury’s outboard product line will be comprehensively upgraded with new, more cost-effective architectures and product-refresh programs. They also offered these specifics. In regard to the Brunswuck product line branded as FOURSTROKE (not VERADO), investors were told to expect to see Brunswick "progressively expand the family, leveraging the attributes and success of the 150hp." There has already been a great deal of purely speculative suggestions that the 150-HP FOURSTROKE would become the basis of a new series of engines for Brunswick. This announcement by Brunswick of precisely that approach seems to confirm those speculations. Brunswick also appears to completely neglect their OptiMax brand of engines in the presentation. The word "OptiMax" is never mentioned anywhere, and, of course, that means it is not mentioned in these forward thinking statements. I think the OptiMax engines certainly constitute a category or architecture of engines, and to see no mention of them at all in terms of future plans is a bit startling. The VERADO engine is specifically mentioned, but Brunswick says here it will only "continue to enhance world’s best performing four-stroke and only production supercharged outboard engine." In terms of being cost-effective (for the manufacturer) is seems like both the OptiMax and the VERADO architecture are the antithesis of cost-effective. The OptiMax requires licensing of intellectual property from Orbital, the developer of the fundamental combustion process used in the OptiMax. The OptiMax also needs a lot of outboard gear on the engine: an air compressor, a compressed air distribution system, air injectors, and pressure regulators. None of that is needed on the new FOURSTROKE (not VERADO). The VERADO line needs very precision-made superchargers, a complicated waste-gate regulator, and dry-sump lubrication. Those all sound like expensive components. On the basis of an emphasis on "cost-effective" manufacturing, I do not think Brunswick will be turning to OptiMax as the main platform, nor will it develop VERADO into new applications. It seems clear that the FOURSTROKE (not VERADO) architecture will be the basis for any new engines from Brunswick. Brunswick says that among their "technology development advancements" has been "customer-driven design and development." I don't quite see this as a technology development, but rather just common sense.
jcdawg83	posted 11-15-2013 04:25 PM ET (US) I am far from an expert, but it appears to me that Mercury engines are a lot like high end European automobiles. They have some very highly engineered systems which create great performance. Unfortunately, these high tech/highly engineered systems also create a lot of opportunities for failure not found in simpler engines. Supercharging and compressed air systems are impressive technology, but in the harsh unforgiving world of marine outboard engines, those systems seem to open a lot of chances for failures. I also imagine the repair of those systems is rather costly compared to simpler engines. In my opinion, performance is important, but it is somewhat secondary to reliability and long life in an expensive outboard engine.
martyn1075	posted 11-15-2013 05:21 PM ET (US) I don't see at as startling at all. It will also mean good news for the Etec company that currently sell what I like to call a hybrid engine but realistically its a two stroke by nature. I feel the Optimax is similar and is why they are competitors. The reason why Im not startled and have speculated for a few years that OPtimax was going to be dropped is because clearly people as a majority have made up their minds to buy a fourstroke. When you sell a boat you tend to hear "does it have a fourstroke?' It doesn't make it the better choice necessarily but the popular one it does. When Mercury made the 150 Four Stroke they claimed power and wight of a two stroke but a four stroke by nature. In other words end of road Optimax, where does that leave the Otimax? It essentially just made better and more current Optimax. Its also cheaper than the high end top producing four strokes like Yamaha or Honda etc. The new series 150 Fourstroke has far better potential to sell as an engine only for other boaters to re-power there non Brunswick made boats. The Optimax did not. Lastly over many years the Optimax had a bad reputation until most recent models 2006 onwards were vastly improved and drastically more stable. They are now very good reliable gas efficient engines. Unfortunately their timing was off due to the market turing over to the more popular choice and that is the Four stroke. This is a wise decision if they truly develop the new series of Four Strokes. Maybe an outside chance to keep the larger Optimax motors like the 250 pro. Apparently they do sell quite a number of those engines to the bass crowd. Martyn
Jefecinco	posted 11-15-2013 07:19 PM ET (US) JC, In reality the reliability of the supercharged Verado engine family has been excellent. These engines were designed from the start to be supercharged. They are not modified naturally aspirated engines hot rodded to produce vast horsepower above their design output. The modern purpose designed supercharged engine presents no more opportunities for failure than any other engine except for having additional parts which appear to have no higher tendency to fail than other parts. Perhaps you have something that indicates otherwise. Butch
phatwhaler	posted 11-15-2013 08:04 PM ET (US) How much could the licensing from Orbital cost at this point. They're probably taking what Mercury is willing to give them.
jimh	posted 11-15-2013 11:08 PM ET (US) I completely agree: the VERADO supercharger has been very reliable, as has the whole power head. The only repair problem with the VERADO seems to be caused by it making too much power; the gear case had to revised twice to get a design that could handle all the power produced by the VERADO engine. My point was the VERADO is an expensive engine to manufacture, and in the marketplace there are many competitors who are selling their engines at prices that may be below what Brunswick anticipated the VERADO would sell, so market competition constrains the margins on the VERADO. This is why Brunswick says that it must develop more cost-effective technology in its new engine lines. Brunswick could not have made this much clearer; read the statement from their presentation.
jimh	posted 11-15-2013 11:11 PM ET (US) The license fee to Orbital; that has to be so secret it is locked in a safe in the CEO's office. I have never heard any figure mentioned. It could have been a great deal--for either Orbital or Brunswick. No one knows. But I think it is safe to say that Brunswick pays Orbital, not the other way around.
Mambo Minnow	posted 11-16-2013 11:23 AM ET (US) Excellent news, thanks for sharing Jim. I have been waiting for this news before making a final re-power decision. An upgraded [engine based on the 150-HP FOURSTROKE not VERADO] in the 200- to 225-HP range is exactly what I was waiting for. Perhaps we will hear and see more at the Miami Boat Show in February.
jimh	posted 11-16-2013 11:43 AM ET (US) I don't see a new engine in a few months. If there were significant new product on a very near time horizon, Brunswick would be telling investors about them. For example, when the VERADO was being developed Brunswick told investors all about it in detail in presentations it made every three months. In this latest presentation they just announced that there will be new outboards, but really gave no indication of when. If the new outboards were imminent, investors would have likely been told about them in more precise terms of time. Also, I don't see how the 150-HP engine can be increased to 225-HP just by waving a magic wand. An increase in power of a ratio of 1.5:1 seems like a rather large increase, and one would think that something significant would have to be changed in the engine to get so much extra power from it.
jimh	posted 11-16-2013 12:04 PM ET (US) Brunswick said that their new products will be developed by "customer-driven" new technology. In the presentation to investors about Brunswick marine engines, the following points were presented as goals for the new products under development: --extreme reliability --quality --durability Those three terms sounded familiar to me. I had heard them before. I searched my files to see if I could discover where I heard them. I found the answer in a 2001 white paper about the development of the E-TEC engine. The E-TEC was designed based on customer input from surveys that told Evinrude what was desirable in an outboard engine. Here is an excerpt from that 12-year-old document: quote: Outboard consumer surveys, conducted around the world in 2001, were commissioned to gauge if the typical outboard owner’s requirements had changed. The results were a little surprising to many of the older marine engineers. In order of preference, the modern outboard owner wanted 1. DQR - Dependability, Quality and Reliability 2. Ease of Maintenance 3. Easy starting 4. Performance 5. Economy 6. Style/appearance Cf.: http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/IAME44-1_e-tec.pdf It seems that not much has changed in 12 years. Apparently what boaters find important is dependability, quality, and reliability, above all else.
martyn1075	posted 11-16-2013 01:05 PM ET (US) Its true buyers want dependability, quality, and reliability, however when spending their hard earned money majority put it towards a FourStroke brand. Thats the reality of the market. Martyn
Mambo Minnow	posted 11-16-2013 02:44 PM ET (US) If Yamaha can get 200-HP out of a 2.8-liter, four-cylinder block, I don't see why Mercury can not get 200-HP out of a 3.0-liter four-cylinder. Of course, the Japanese use DOHC and the Mercury is a SOHC but multiple valves per cylinder might be one way. The Verado engines from 150- to 300-HP use the same block - it's mostly a matter of software that derives different horsepower out of a 1.6-liter supercharged block. It is most likely we will next see a Mercury Fourstroke 175-HP model.
martyn1075	posted 11-16-2013 03:22 PM ET (US) I think "progressively expand the family, leveraging the attributes and success of the 150hp" means it is far more likely that we'll see a 3.0L 135 HP Mercury FourStroke than a 200 or 225 HP model built on the same 4-cylinder, 8-valve configuration. A 200 or 225 HP model in that same configuration, even if they could get 200 or 225 HP out of it, cuts completely against the Mercury advertising hype about high-displacement, low-HP. Given that Yamaha's 3.3L V6 F225 is a weak motor at best, a 4-cylinder, 3.0-liter 225 would be even weaker. If they keep the same HP to displacement ratio, they would need a 4.5-liter straight six to get 225-HP. That would probably be the tallest production outboard ever made. Besides possible fit problems on re-power applications, I wonder how many fisherman would be happy to try to fish around that.
jimh	posted 11-16-2013 04:42 PM ET (US) In the VERADO supercharger engine you can dial up any horsepower you want by controlling the boost pressure. The Yamaha engine uses variable valve timing or cam phasing to get enhanced performance. Mercury's new FOURSTROKE (not VERADO) engine does not use variable valve timing. The lack of that performance-boosting valve design makes me think that it will be harder to get the additional horsepower from the basic engine block with the same displacement.
King PV	posted 11-17-2013 03:30 PM ET (US) May I interject a thought that no one has come up with yet? About two years ago, I had a conversation with "a knowledgable Mercury Employee" who mentioned that Mercury would be looking at streamlining their product line by utilizing the then new 150 FOURSTROKE (not VERADO) engine in other horsepower ranges. Everyone here is thinking of pushing the limits and making 175 and 200-HP versions, and up. I would suggest the following: Lool at the 75-, 90-, and 115-HP FOURSTROKE [Veradito engines] Mercury has now. These are the four-cylinder, EFI, non-supercharged, non-[DTS] [based on the VERADO] engines that have been quite successful for Mercury up to this date. However, I would suggest that although they are successful, they are still fairly large and should be reduced in size at least, if Mercury were to improve them in any way. Go look at the 75-HP version and I'd think you'd agree that these engines are, well, HUGE! If Mercury is thinking of using another line of power and making these particular engines better--lessening Verado usage perhaps--then lets talk about making a three-cylinder version of the new four-cylinder 150. Now you can have a great engine, smaller in size and weight and not pushing the HP curve such as you may by trying to make a 150 into something it isn't! Or, perhaps can't be!
Jefecinco	posted 11-17-2013 05:10 PM ET (US) It's not unusual for an introductory engine such as the new Mercury 150 to be very conservatively rated. In later iterations the same engine with tweaks to the ECU and/or bolt on items such as manifolds or injectors are rated at higher HP. Unlike the Verado the increases are not dramatic. The same supercharged Verado L4 engine has been sold in 135, 150, 175 and 200 HP versions. Butch
Peter	posted 11-18-2013 07:50 AM ET (US) On page 38 of the presentation I found the following statement of interest with respect to the topic Key Competitive Issues and Consumer Preferences: "Small but growing influence of low-cost, two-stroke outboards" (emphasis added).
jimh	posted 11-18-2013 09:07 AM ET (US) There is no doubt that Brunwick will be developing new Mercury-brand outboard engines based on the technology they used in the 150-HP FOURSTROKE (not VERADO) engine. Let's review the technology shift: ABANDON VERADO ELEMENTS LIKE --digital throttle and shift --supercharging --new engine mounting, tilting, and steering systems --power steering --dry sump lubrication --long-bolt Formula-One race engine block, heads, lowers --high-strength piston, rods, crankshaft, and bearings Instead the new engine will revert to much simpler, much less advanced technology which will then use much less expensive components in the engine to make if more "cost effective" for Brunswick to manufacture. That means: REVERT TO OLDER TECHNOLOGY LIKE --mechanically linked throttle and shift --naturally aspirated induction --old-style engine mount, engine tilt, and engine steering --no power steering --conventional wet sump lubrication --conventional cast block with bolt-on heads and lowers --lower strength pistons, rods, crankshaft, and bearing We can expect to see, perhaps sometime in 2014, a new engine from Brunswick that will have all the technology of the four-stroke-power-cycle engine that was being bought from Yamaha in 2002 and re-sold under the Mercury brand. The one differentiator will be that these new engines will have SmartCraft, continuing the isolation of Mercury-brand engines from the rest of the outboard manufacturers who are now all using NMEA-2000. We have really come a long way in 14-years.
OMCrobert	posted 11-18-2013 03:23 PM ET (US) The four stroke market is the future and the price on new boats is so very high I suspect that they are creating a separate engine line to replace to replace the Optimax. They might keep the Verado and come out with a simple four stroke to take the repower market over like they are currently doing with the new 150hp Four Stroke 3.0 liter. I did not read anything about the Verado going away. I say the four stroke market is the future because just about every major boat company only offers four strokes. Sailfish Grady White Regulator Boston Whaler Key West Yellowfin Intrepid Contender Edgewater The new 150hp has proven so far to be a great repower engine and I suspect that will be the focus. I feel that we as boaters need a cheaper alternative for repowers vs engines with DTS. Yamaha is currently doing the same thing as they unveiled they were keeping the 3.6 liter 250hp Four Stroke with cable controls in addition to the offering of their new 4.2 liter SHO/Offshore series.
jimh	posted 11-18-2013 03:33 PM ET (US) Brunswick has clearly said: The VERADO will continue. The new engines to come will be four-stroke-power-cycle engines based on their new 150-HP FOURSTROKE (not VERADO). OMCRobert says: quote: [Brunswuck] might keep the Verado and come out with a simple four stroke... It it very good to know you agree with Brunswick on what they will be doing with their engine development in the near future. The market for four-stroke-power-cycle outboard engines is extremely crowded. The following manufacturers compete in four-stroke-power-cycle outboard engine manufacturing for sale in the USA and Canada: --Brunswick --Yamaha --Honda --Suzuki Without the benefit of careful research, I think that Brunswick is the smallest of those corporations, if one considers the global business of all four.
OMCrobert	posted 11-18-2013 03:55 PM ET (US) I would agree that Brunswick is the smallest corporation out of those but it is most likely the largest or second largest outboard engine builder as Suzuki and Honda have very little market share in the OB global market. Sounds like Brunswick is dropping the 2 stroke DFI line up in favor of a new simple Four Stroke line up. Brunswick is a successful corporation so I suspect they know what customers want and that appears to be Four Strokes. Yamaha and Brunswick would not abandon the two stroke DFI market unless it was dying. Combine that aspect along with the fact that boat builders only offer four strokes any more solidifies that fact that Four Strokes are the future.
martyn1075	posted 11-21-2013 03:47 PM ET (US) For me it just seems like the new 150 Four Stroke technology is just a new modern Optimax replacement. Given the reality of buyers wanting Four strokes based on desire not necessarily better overall motor, I think its safe to say this is the case. Also how many Verados or Optimax engines are truly sold as units without the purchase of a new Boston Whaler? The other companies have done well in that regard so this new engine Mercury offers gives them a chance to compete this way I think. I understand its cheaper than a Verado. A 210 Montuak at 2500 lbs with this engine can achieve 5 mpg! Thats really impressive obviously. We have also seen it added to a classic 22 Outrage with good results as well.