Sunk Boston Whaler 34 Defiance for sale in Miami

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Author Topic:   Sunk Boston Whaler 34 Defiance for sale in Miami

vze2gbs4 posted 12-20-2013 12:55 AM ET (US)
Saw Craigs List ( Miami ) add for 2000 Boston Whaler 34 Defiance that partially sunk according to add. No further info why and how boat sunk . It is for sale as-is for [$26,900]. In many ways it was my dream Whaler, but reading that this Whaler is vulnerable just like all other boats compromises everything Whaler stand for and why I will only own whaler. I know that they were build in Meridian plant in WA and always wonder how much foam was in that boat. [Seeks] more info about this boat or know of any other Defiance that went under. I always wanted one, and, right now, after 13 years, they finally becoming affordable for an average Joe to buy them. Not much information anywhere on the web about them in general. I know that approximately only 66 were build and are very rare to see on water. I have never seen one in person here in Northern NJ and NYC area except at a 2000 NY boat show. It was love at first sight. Andrew
myakka posted 12-20-2013 07:07 AM ET (US)
The engine room will always be vulnerable on an inboard Whaler.
sraab928 posted 12-20-2013 08:50 AM ET (US)
According to the ad, "The boat sank to just over the motors." To me this is not sunk as the boat did not go below the surface of the water.
frontier posted 12-20-2013 09:38 AM ET (US)
That is one of the reasons outboards are used on even large Whalersn now. The powerheads of [the outboard engines] are above water when swamped. The boat did its job. The original 34 Defiance brochure says "...it's the only boat in its size range that will stay afloat if punctured or swamped".
Quote: "I know that they were build in Meridian plant in WA and always wonder how much foam was in that boat."
I think all Boston Whalers are built in Edgewater, Florida. In fact, my son and I were at the Whaler factory in Edgewater, on a tour, in the year 2000 when the first 34' Defiance was being equipped and about ready for launch. Amazing engineering. Very impressive.
jimh posted 12-21-2013 09:27 AM ET (US)
What is the source for the suggestion that the DEFIANCE 34 was built at a plant in Washington state associated with the MERIDIAN brand of Brunswick boats?
jimh posted 12-21-2013 09:38 AM ET (US)
It is typical in all of the larger Boston Whaler Unibond hulls that the amount of reserve buoyancy created by the double-bottom hull design of the Boston Whaler becomes less as a percentage of the total hull weight. The reserve buoyancy created by the double-bottom design seems to peak at about the classic 25-foot hull, which had 9,000-lbs of reserve buoyancy when swamped. The dry hull weight was only 3,300-lbs. So the reserve was almost three times the hull weight.
The swamped capacity is how much weight can be carried in a hull that is swamped to the gunwales with water.
I am not even sure there was a specification for swamped capacity for the inboard engine models of Boston Whaler. It more or less goes without saying that if a boat--any boat--is swamped, the lower areas of the hull are going to be filled with water. That is what it means to be swamped. If there are inboard engines in the lower areas of the hull, they will be immersed in water. It should not come as a surprise or be interpreted as a refutation of the Boston Whaler legend of being unsinkable that a Boston Whaler boat when swamped will be filled with water.
OMCrobert posted 12-21-2013 11:12 AM ET (US)
It could have possibly even sank on land if someone left the drain plug in while on blocks. Rain water/snow over a 12 month period can really add up.
The cushions look to be in poor conditions and it says it needs new interior. I would say the price tag of $27,000+ is steep and way too high.
Here is a running one with no issues for $99,000.
http://www.boattrader.com/listing/2000-Boston-Whaler-34-Defiance-102097623

Peter posted 12-21-2013 04:18 PM ET (US)
The specifications for the 34 Defiance show a 4000 lb swamped capacity. The problem with the Defiance design is that with inboards it deviates from the original Whaler design advantage because it is unable to keep the "powerheads" above water should the boat get swamped. The classic Whalers when swamped kept the outboard powerhead above water so it would still run with the boat swamped So even if the Defiance can support 4000 lbs of weight when swamped, the inboard power is underwater in a swamping. You may stay above the surface but you are dead in the water in a swamping.
PeteB88 posted 12-21-2013 09:53 PM ET (US)
There is no foam in Washington State, only wood or aluminum. And Lavro.
vze2gbs4 posted 12-22-2013 12:30 AM ET (US)
From two different sources I found this info. Hull truth was one. Steve Landaker who owns 2002 35 Defiance claims it was build in Sea Ray plant in Meritt Island WA. There was somebody else who claims that he saw 2 Defiance on production line when plant was operational.I guess calling Chuck down at factory in Edgewater would clarify this .
sraab928 posted 12-22-2013 08:52 AM ET (US)
There is a Sea Ray plant in Merritt Island Fl - not far from Boston Whaler - Not sure if there is a Merritt Island Washington (my quick search did not find anything)
Jefecinco posted 12-22-2013 09:21 AM ET (US)
This is pure speculation, but... given SeaRay boats vast experience with gasoline and diesel inboard engines and the lack of same on Boston Whalers part it seems very possible the Defiance hulls were sent to SeasRay for the engine installations.
Butch
jimh posted 12-22-2013 09:33 AM ET (US)
It would make a lot more sense to truck an unfinished hull to Merritt Island, Florida from Edgewater, Florida, a relatively short haul, than it would to send an unfinished hull to Washington state from Florida, about the longest distance you can travel in the USA (excluding Hawaii and Alaska).
Rotten posted 12-22-2013 05:56 PM ET (US)
When I had the 320 in Long Island the guy 4 or 5 slips down from me had one and it was a beauty. Kinda weird not seeing the outboards on a Whaler but none the less, It was a real gem
Jefecinco posted 12-23-2013 09:27 AM ET (US)
Jim,
I was thinking of the Merritt Island facility. Shipping hulls to Washington would make no sense given that the primary market for larger Boston Whaler boats seems to be Florida and the Atlantic and Gulf of Mexico coasts.
Butch
17 bodega posted 12-23-2013 12:23 PM ET (US)
To back up and put the initial conversation in proper context, let's ask:
What do we mean when we say a Boston Whaler sank?
1. Do we mean that a group of people went out to sea in a well maintained boat and "sank" the boat under conditions that the boat was designed to operate within?
2. Or.... Did someone leave a nice Boston Whaler in a dark swamp somewhere with plug in, cabin doors open, hatches open, etc. etc for several seasons to gather water, muck, filth and possibly an entire stagnant pond ecosystem to ripen and ferment...?
From the [hopefully reliable] information provided by the craigslist seller, it seems the answer is somewhere in between 1 and 2 but much closer to 2.
A Miami location suggests storm damage? Let's face it... if given the proper conditions, any one of us could permanently sink a Whaler. Fill a Montauk with quick set concrete and drop it in the water with a crane and my money says a whaler will sink pretty quick. It doesn't appear this boat was swamped and sank immediately... but more likely lost in a storm and recovered swamped some time later.
Also I know nothing about the 34 Defiance and how it differentiates from other models in it's "unsinkability", but for that kind of money I would hope the boat is not vulnerable to sinking while out at sea in even the toughest of conditions.
It's a great discussion, but some context is missing.

vze2gbs4 posted 12-23-2013 01:57 PM ET (US)
Ok - got more info on the boat. Apparently boat was on the lift next to owner house and one of the cables that support lift broke causing it to dive bow first. Cabin filled with water causing entire deck to go below including engines.Helm apparently survived above the water. By the time owner was notified ( his summer house) and rescue operation took place significant amount of time passed causing it to be total loss.
So boat needs new engines.wiring ,generator ,entire cabin interior and who knows what else.Its offered at 26900. Best priced 34 Defiance is priced 99000. My question is should I or anybody else even bother touching this.
Jefecinco posted 12-23-2013 07:34 PM ET (US)
I believe the cost to restore the boat to even a resemblance of it's original, ie. before the "sinking", quality would require far more than the delta of the asking salvage price and $100,000. If I am correct, the smart money would go to buy the $100,000 Defiance assuming it is in decent sellable condition.
Butch
Dave Sutton posted 12-24-2013 10:37 AM ET (US)
It's worth what a stripped used hull is worth, less the value of the labor to strip it.
To frame that: Basically it's worth less than what a newly molded hull alone would be worth popped right out of the mold, with no work done to it. You'll need to take it to that point, and then rebuild it. That's going to cost time and money. Thus it's worth less than a hull popped right from the mold with a "take me free" sign next to it.
That's not to say that you could not do a hack-job and have a running hull for less than the cost of any other boat built on the same hull, but it'll not be a comparable boat either.
Bottom line is that for myself, I would not take it for free. I'd charge a disposal cost to remove it from the property.

Dave
.

Binkster posted 12-24-2013 12:21 PM ET (US)
I agree with Dave. Marine salvage yards acquire boats like this, all brands, for free for just moving them to their yard. The yards are full of them. Then they sell the usable parts.
rich
OMCrobert posted 12-24-2013 03:46 PM ET (US)
I wish that was true. There is a market for these projects. I would love to have the hull for $3000. Twin 9.9hp kickers and that would be the party boat of the year.
Rickie posted 12-30-2013 10:52 PM ET (US)
As the owner of multiple Whalers including a 2002 350 Defiance. Let me try to help out the speculation associated with this hull. Firstly, after the first few were built in Edgewater, FL the rest were built in the Sea Ray factory on Merritt Island, Fl by Whaler personal. That said, there were major improvements that resulted in the areas of plumbing and electrical wiring. Mine was built at Merritt Island near the end of the run ~63 vessels. With respect to swamping, unlike a boat with outboards, if one were operating the boat and lost a shaft due to hitting an obstruction the first thing one would do would be to jam a wooden plug in the shaft log. I keep one tied to a string next to each shaft just in case. Secondly, these boats have three main bilge pumps, not counting the showers small pump. If they were not able to keep up with the water inflow the Groco seawater valves would be closed and the plug removed and each engine would become an additional pump. If all that failed, CH 16 and a good EPIRB would be the next course of action of course after everyone had donned their lifejackets. While waiting for rescue they could sit above decks quite comfortably and reasonably dry. Course none of this applies to a boat falling off the lift. My boat new was $550k. $25k with some new engines, interior, etc. one could have a very nice boat, but it would take around $100k to do so. No I wouldn't dream of selling my boat for $125k either. Some Whaler stats include a dry weight of 18,100#, 4,000# swamped capacity. Add `2,300# for fuel, 688# for water, another 250# for 1/2 full holding tank, swim platform, tower, a few friends, gear, etc., and you're cruising at >22,000#s. Can't do that in my 13'.
My next boat is an 1992 27' Walkaround. It's rated swamp capacity is 10,000#. That means a nice Yukon XL and a Corvette would have to be loaded on top of it if fully swamped for it to go negatively bouyant. Not that I'd waste either of those vehicles to prove it. I have had this boat almost fully swamped 60+ miles offshore, and been able to recover without assistance (and keep fishing). Likewise, I watched a 45' boat sink off of Cuttyhunk Island a couple of years ago because it had no floatation.
Take your pick. I'll stick with my three Whalers. And btw the 350 Defiance's handling totally outperforms my 27' due to the advantage of the inboard placement, torque, and moment around the axis due to their centerline spacing.

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Author	Topic: Sunk Boston Whaler 34 Defiance for sale in Miami
vze2gbs4	posted 12-20-2013 12:55 AM ET (US) Saw Craigs List ( Miami ) add for 2000 Boston Whaler 34 Defiance that partially sunk according to add. No further info why and how boat sunk . It is for sale as-is for [$26,900]. In many ways it was my dream Whaler, but reading that this Whaler is vulnerable just like all other boats compromises everything Whaler stand for and why I will only own whaler. I know that they were build in Meridian plant in WA and always wonder how much foam was in that boat. [Seeks] more info about this boat or know of any other Defiance that went under. I always wanted one, and, right now, after 13 years, they finally becoming affordable for an average Joe to buy them. Not much information anywhere on the web about them in general. I know that approximately only 66 were build and are very rare to see on water. I have never seen one in person here in Northern NJ and NYC area except at a 2000 NY boat show. It was love at first sight. Andrew
myakka	posted 12-20-2013 07:07 AM ET (US) The engine room will always be vulnerable on an inboard Whaler.
sraab928	posted 12-20-2013 08:50 AM ET (US) According to the ad, "The boat sank to just over the motors." To me this is not sunk as the boat did not go below the surface of the water.
frontier	posted 12-20-2013 09:38 AM ET (US) That is one of the reasons outboards are used on even large Whalersn now. The powerheads of [the outboard engines] are above water when swamped. The boat did its job. The original 34 Defiance brochure says "...it's the only boat in its size range that will stay afloat if punctured or swamped". Quote: "I know that they were build in Meridian plant in WA and always wonder how much foam was in that boat." I think all Boston Whalers are built in Edgewater, Florida. In fact, my son and I were at the Whaler factory in Edgewater, on a tour, in the year 2000 when the first 34' Defiance was being equipped and about ready for launch. Amazing engineering. Very impressive.
jimh	posted 12-21-2013 09:27 AM ET (US) What is the source for the suggestion that the DEFIANCE 34 was built at a plant in Washington state associated with the MERIDIAN brand of Brunswick boats?
jimh	posted 12-21-2013 09:38 AM ET (US) It is typical in all of the larger Boston Whaler Unibond hulls that the amount of reserve buoyancy created by the double-bottom hull design of the Boston Whaler becomes less as a percentage of the total hull weight. The reserve buoyancy created by the double-bottom design seems to peak at about the classic 25-foot hull, which had 9,000-lbs of reserve buoyancy when swamped. The dry hull weight was only 3,300-lbs. So the reserve was almost three times the hull weight. The swamped capacity is how much weight can be carried in a hull that is swamped to the gunwales with water. I am not even sure there was a specification for swamped capacity for the inboard engine models of Boston Whaler. It more or less goes without saying that if a boat--any boat--is swamped, the lower areas of the hull are going to be filled with water. That is what it means to be swamped. If there are inboard engines in the lower areas of the hull, they will be immersed in water. It should not come as a surprise or be interpreted as a refutation of the Boston Whaler legend of being unsinkable that a Boston Whaler boat when swamped will be filled with water.
OMCrobert	posted 12-21-2013 11:12 AM ET (US) It could have possibly even sank on land if someone left the drain plug in while on blocks. Rain water/snow over a 12 month period can really add up. The cushions look to be in poor conditions and it says it needs new interior. I would say the price tag of $27,000+ is steep and way too high. Here is a running one with no issues for $99,000. http://www.boattrader.com/listing/2000-Boston-Whaler-34-Defiance-102097623
Peter	posted 12-21-2013 04:18 PM ET (US) The specifications for the 34 Defiance show a 4000 lb swamped capacity. The problem with the Defiance design is that with inboards it deviates from the original Whaler design advantage because it is unable to keep the "powerheads" above water should the boat get swamped. The classic Whalers when swamped kept the outboard powerhead above water so it would still run with the boat swamped So even if the Defiance can support 4000 lbs of weight when swamped, the inboard power is underwater in a swamping. You may stay above the surface but you are dead in the water in a swamping.
PeteB88	posted 12-21-2013 09:53 PM ET (US) There is no foam in Washington State, only wood or aluminum. And Lavro.
vze2gbs4	posted 12-22-2013 12:30 AM ET (US) From two different sources I found this info. Hull truth was one. Steve Landaker who owns 2002 35 Defiance claims it was build in Sea Ray plant in Meritt Island WA. There was somebody else who claims that he saw 2 Defiance on production line when plant was operational.I guess calling Chuck down at factory in Edgewater would clarify this .
sraab928	posted 12-22-2013 08:52 AM ET (US) There is a Sea Ray plant in Merritt Island Fl - not far from Boston Whaler - Not sure if there is a Merritt Island Washington (my quick search did not find anything)
Jefecinco	posted 12-22-2013 09:21 AM ET (US) This is pure speculation, but... given SeaRay boats vast experience with gasoline and diesel inboard engines and the lack of same on Boston Whalers part it seems very possible the Defiance hulls were sent to SeasRay for the engine installations. Butch
jimh	posted 12-22-2013 09:33 AM ET (US) It would make a lot more sense to truck an unfinished hull to Merritt Island, Florida from Edgewater, Florida, a relatively short haul, than it would to send an unfinished hull to Washington state from Florida, about the longest distance you can travel in the USA (excluding Hawaii and Alaska).
Rotten	posted 12-22-2013 05:56 PM ET (US) When I had the 320 in Long Island the guy 4 or 5 slips down from me had one and it was a beauty. Kinda weird not seeing the outboards on a Whaler but none the less, It was a real gem
Jefecinco	posted 12-23-2013 09:27 AM ET (US) Jim, I was thinking of the Merritt Island facility. Shipping hulls to Washington would make no sense given that the primary market for larger Boston Whaler boats seems to be Florida and the Atlantic and Gulf of Mexico coasts. Butch
17 bodega	posted 12-23-2013 12:23 PM ET (US) To back up and put the initial conversation in proper context, let's ask: What do we mean when we say a Boston Whaler sank? 1. Do we mean that a group of people went out to sea in a well maintained boat and "sank" the boat under conditions that the boat was designed to operate within? 2. Or.... Did someone leave a nice Boston Whaler in a dark swamp somewhere with plug in, cabin doors open, hatches open, etc. etc for several seasons to gather water, muck, filth and possibly an entire stagnant pond ecosystem to ripen and ferment...? From the [hopefully reliable] information provided by the craigslist seller, it seems the answer is somewhere in between 1 and 2 but much closer to 2. A Miami location suggests storm damage? Let's face it... if given the proper conditions, any one of us could permanently sink a Whaler. Fill a Montauk with quick set concrete and drop it in the water with a crane and my money says a whaler will sink pretty quick. It doesn't appear this boat was swamped and sank immediately... but more likely lost in a storm and recovered swamped some time later. Also I know nothing about the 34 Defiance and how it differentiates from other models in it's "unsinkability", but for that kind of money I would hope the boat is not vulnerable to sinking while out at sea in even the toughest of conditions. It's a great discussion, but some context is missing.
vze2gbs4	posted 12-23-2013 01:57 PM ET (US) Ok - got more info on the boat. Apparently boat was on the lift next to owner house and one of the cables that support lift broke causing it to dive bow first. Cabin filled with water causing entire deck to go below including engines.Helm apparently survived above the water. By the time owner was notified ( his summer house) and rescue operation took place significant amount of time passed causing it to be total loss. So boat needs new engines.wiring ,generator ,entire cabin interior and who knows what else.Its offered at 26900. Best priced 34 Defiance is priced 99000. My question is should I or anybody else even bother touching this.
Jefecinco	posted 12-23-2013 07:34 PM ET (US) I believe the cost to restore the boat to even a resemblance of it's original, ie. before the "sinking", quality would require far more than the delta of the asking salvage price and $100,000. If I am correct, the smart money would go to buy the $100,000 Defiance assuming it is in decent sellable condition. Butch
Dave Sutton	posted 12-24-2013 10:37 AM ET (US) It's worth what a stripped used hull is worth, less the value of the labor to strip it. To frame that: Basically it's worth less than what a newly molded hull alone would be worth popped right out of the mold, with no work done to it. You'll need to take it to that point, and then rebuild it. That's going to cost time and money. Thus it's worth less than a hull popped right from the mold with a "take me free" sign next to it. That's not to say that you could not do a hack-job and have a running hull for less than the cost of any other boat built on the same hull, but it'll not be a comparable boat either. Bottom line is that for myself, I would not take it for free. I'd charge a disposal cost to remove it from the property. Dave .
Binkster	posted 12-24-2013 12:21 PM ET (US) I agree with Dave. Marine salvage yards acquire boats like this, all brands, for free for just moving them to their yard. The yards are full of them. Then they sell the usable parts. rich
OMCrobert	posted 12-24-2013 03:46 PM ET (US) I wish that was true. There is a market for these projects. I would love to have the hull for $3000. Twin 9.9hp kickers and that would be the party boat of the year.
Rickie	posted 12-30-2013 10:52 PM ET (US) As the owner of multiple Whalers including a 2002 350 Defiance. Let me try to help out the speculation associated with this hull. Firstly, after the first few were built in Edgewater, FL the rest were built in the Sea Ray factory on Merritt Island, Fl by Whaler personal. That said, there were major improvements that resulted in the areas of plumbing and electrical wiring. Mine was built at Merritt Island near the end of the run ~63 vessels. With respect to swamping, unlike a boat with outboards, if one were operating the boat and lost a shaft due to hitting an obstruction the first thing one would do would be to jam a wooden plug in the shaft log. I keep one tied to a string next to each shaft just in case. Secondly, these boats have three main bilge pumps, not counting the showers small pump. If they were not able to keep up with the water inflow the Groco seawater valves would be closed and the plug removed and each engine would become an additional pump. If all that failed, CH 16 and a good EPIRB would be the next course of action of course after everyone had donned their lifejackets. While waiting for rescue they could sit above decks quite comfortably and reasonably dry. Course none of this applies to a boat falling off the lift. My boat new was $550k. $25k with some new engines, interior, etc. one could have a very nice boat, but it would take around $100k to do so. No I wouldn't dream of selling my boat for $125k either. Some Whaler stats include a dry weight of 18,100#, 4,000# swamped capacity. Add `2,300# for fuel, 688# for water, another 250# for 1/2 full holding tank, swim platform, tower, a few friends, gear, etc., and you're cruising at >22,000#s. Can't do that in my 13'. My next boat is an 1992 27' Walkaround. It's rated swamp capacity is 10,000#. That means a nice Yukon XL and a Corvette would have to be loaded on top of it if fully swamped for it to go negatively bouyant. Not that I'd waste either of those vehicles to prove it. I have had this boat almost fully swamped 60+ miles offshore, and been able to recover without assistance (and keep fishing). Likewise, I watched a 45' boat sink off of Cuttyhunk Island a couple of years ago because it had no floatation. Take your pick. I'll stick with my three Whalers. And btw the 350 Defiance's handling totally outperforms my 27' due to the advantage of the inboard placement, torque, and moment around the axis due to their centerline spacing.