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Author Topic:   2001 Ventura 21 Hull Value

WhalerAce posted 01-17-2014 01:24 AM ET (US)
As those of you who saw my ad in the Marketplace forum know, I was looking to replace my Temptation 25 with a smaller Whaler, a 21 Ventura.
As it turns out, the 225 HP Yamaha outboard that powers the boat is toast, and according to the dealer, not worth repairing. Now the individual who was selling the rig is asking $9,500 for the hull (no engine, no trailer).
So now, what do you think the hull is worth? The boat has been sitting outside on the dealer's lot for about two years. The fiberglass is chalky (smears white on your hands when you touch it), and the upholstery no longer has a shine, but still appears to be pliable and not torn.
What could have been a sweet deal has now turned into a exercise in procuring separate components from different sources.
We feel that the Ventura is the kind of Whaler that we want now, because of its ease in boarding and the bow-seating option that the Temptation does not have.
Thanks in advance,
--- WhalerAce
WhalerAce posted 01-17-2014 01:28 AM ET (US)
By the way, I would like to repower the boat with either a Yamaha two- or four-stroke, or an E-TEC (but not Ficht). Either a 225 HP or 250 HP model is what I am pursuing.
boatdryver posted 01-17-2014 09:16 AM ET (US)
if you haven't already done so you could go to Boattrader.com and search for Venturas.
I recently did this and there were several 21 foot Venturas ranging in model year back to 2001.
Asking prices vary a lot. Most have trailers. knowing what you know now about engine prices you can get an idea of what you would be willing to pay for a bare hull that needs cosmetic work. The trailer alone will be a lot.
JimL
Jefecinco posted 01-17-2014 09:33 AM ET (US)
I'm sure you've considered this, but check prices of a similar Ventura with power and a trailer. Try to determine an average. From that price deduct your approximate cost for a replacement engine and installation and a trailer. It's likely the batteries will require replacement and the electronics will have no value if you want to factor that into the equation.
What remains is the approximate value of the hull to you.
Or, take the $9500 and add to it the cost of the engine, installation, and trailer. Compare that to the average market price of a Ventura which is ready to go.
Either way you'll be prepared to offer what the hull is worth to you.
I believe my preference would be for a well cared for ready to go Ventura with a known engine that can be examined at a local shop before buying. That solution would also allow for a decent sea trial and accurate performance numbers before buying.
Butch
OMCrobert posted 01-17-2014 09:42 AM ET (US)
In situations like this I normally have the engine lined up before the boat hull when thinking about mating up a project. The engine is the budget buster and makes or breaks the project. If I have a line on a sweetheart of an OX66 250hp that has been babied then I would be more interested in a bare hull vs hull first then finding an engine.
This time of year and given the boat is not ready for the water, I would offer $6,000 cash, leave your phone number and walk away. I would wager you would get a call back.
The used boat market especially for projects is very soft right now.
WhalerAce posted 01-17-2014 10:33 AM ET (US)
Appreciate the input so far. To be more complete, the boat and engine were down to $11,800 when I tried to put a deposit down, only to find that someone had placed a deposit directly with the owner while the consigning dealership was closed for the Christmas break.
When they tried a sea-trial at the beginning of the year, a water leak was discovered around the starboard head, and when they pulled the head, found that corrosion had eaten away some of the block. Previous to this, however, everyone had assumed that the engine was in good shape.
This rig has been on the lot for about eighteen months, and orinally was priced at around $21,000. I had watched the price come down. So now, knowing that I "COULD have had" the boat and trailer for the $11,800 is affecting my thinking about what the total package price should be.
I always knew that I had to buy a new trailer, so that does not enter into the equation.
I have the Temptation and a 21' Ribside that I was going to sell so that I could, in effect, trade even to get the Ventura. So now the total rig price will affect how much I sell my stuff for.
jimh posted 01-17-2014 11:43 AM ET (US)
One approach to finding the new value without an engine is to subtract a reasonable cost for a used Yamaha 2001 225-HP engine. I suspect that engine was a two-stroke power cycle engine. Let's estimate the value with that assumption. I'd say a 2001 225-HP outboard was worth perhaps $3,500 if it were in great shape and looked like new.
If there was a deal pending at $11,800 for the boat and engine, which assumed the engine was in good condition, then we subtract $3,500 for loss of the engine. This makes the boat-only price about $8,300.
I am confused about a trailer for the boat. Was a trailer ever part of the package?
If you have to buy a trailer for a hefty 21-foot boat you will need a tandem axle trailer. A new tandem axle trailer for a 21-foot boat will be at around $4,000.
A new 225-HP engine--oh boy, that will be expensive. Even the lowest-price, out-of-state, down-south, good-ol'-boy, black-cowling, out-the-back-door, evade-the-state-sales-tax, two-stroke engines at that horsepower are $15,000.
Let's say you can get the boat for $8,300, you get a new engine and trailer for $19,000, making the total package $27,300. That's for a 13-year-old boat with a new engine and trailer. I would use that figure as a benchmark, and shop around for alternative deals.
jimh posted 01-17-2014 11:50 AM ET (US)
OMCRobert observes:

quote:
The used boat market especially for projects is very soft right now.
I think that is a very good assessment.
silentpardner posted 01-17-2014 05:56 PM ET (US)
I would offer $2000 cash, and show the money. I doubt that the dealer has any more than this in it. Carry the cash to go up to 3 grand, and show it if the dealer forces you to do this. If your money is not accepted immediately, I would not worry about it. You will either find a better deal elsewhere or the dealer will call you back when they get tired of it sitting around. The key is patience :)
Buoy posted 01-25-2014 09:28 AM ET (US)
I agree with OMCrobert, that hull is worth at least $6,000. It sounds like the boat is missing both the torneau and cockpit covers. While these items do become available on the web intermittently, you'll need to monitor your searches closely as they sell quickly.
What else does the hull need? From my experience (I've owned two), that particular hull needs trim tabs as it tends to be starboard heavy. Is the full bimini top and enclosure included? If so, it offers nice protection from the elements but is a bit tricky to snap and zip up.
It's a very heavy hull and rides beautifully for a 21 footer, I recommend a 250hp engine if possible. I had a Yamaha 200hpdi which was sluggish and an Optimax 225 which was sufficient. I rode in one with an Optimax 200 which was also sluggish.
If you're accustomed to standing while underway in your tempatation, take a few minutes and stand behind the helm to ensure you have sufficent standing room AND compare the windshield heights to ensure you have sufficient wind protection.
The 210 Ventura is a very versatile hull, a few years back I opted to sell my 235 Conquest and 20' Dauntless to downsize to a single boat for maintenance purposes. I purchased my 2nd 210 Ventura and used it for the whole season. While I loved the boat and guests enjoyed the bow seating, I did miss the superior ride, full windshield protection, and the cabin feature of the 235 Conquest.
In the end I sold the 210 Ventura and re-purchased a 235 Conquest and an 18' Dauntless which fit my needs perfectly. I guess ideally you would purchase the hull and a used motor and invest as little as possible to determine whether that hull works for you. You'll know for sure by owning and using it for a full season, I'm not certain that a test-drive will reveal all the distinctions.
Good luck and keep us updated.
vze2gbs4 posted 01-26-2014 12:29 AM ET (US)
6000 with a trailer 5000 just a boat top ( assuming seats and fiberglass is in decent shape ). Not a penny more or look somewhere else .
WhalerAce posted 02-03-2014 07:43 PM ET (US)
I thank you all for your inputs. When I calculated the actual cost (engine cost, shipping, re-rigging, prop) of replacing the engine with one of similar vintage (2001), the hull value actually comes to a tad less than $4,000. I have submitted that offer to the broker. We will see what happens. You guys will be the second to know.
On a similar note, I am looking for a 250HP Yamaha OX-66, 25" shaft, in good shape, so if you know of a good candidate, please let me know. Or an E-TEC, 250HP or higher. Or a LOW price on a 300HP Yamhaha . . .
Thanks for all the comments,
--- Ace
sraab928 posted 02-03-2014 08:05 PM ET (US)
Good luck Ace! I've been keeping an eye out for a motor for you.
WhalerAce posted 02-12-2014 12:37 AM ET (US)
Here is an update:
I am buying the boat only for $5000. Not quite as low as I wanted, but it is a heck of a boat. Now I have to get an engine and put a new trailer on order.
Since it has had a Yamaha, I guess I will repower with a Yamaha. I am still looking for an OX-66, and as late a vintage as I can find. I have found a few on e-Bay from bulk resellers such as ARGMARINE, and this brings up a couple of questions;
One engine that I found, for $6,500, is a counter-rotation engine, a 2001. I have only ever seen one Whaler that was powered by a single counter-rotation engine, so I know they are out there. Is there really any difference in performance of the counter-rotation and standard rotation? I feel like propeller selection might be limited (or maybe not) in the 17-pitch range. What are your thoughts about a counter-rotation engine?
Has anyone on this forum purchased an engine from ARGMARINE? I have googled them for complaints, but have really only found one complaint, while the rest of the comments seem to be positive.
I will also purchasing a new trailer. One quote I have is for $3,300 for an aluminum, twin-torsion-axled, front wheel brake Road King trailer. I will call Continental Trailers tomorrow for more pricing info.
If any of you know of a 250 HP OX-66 that is in excellent condition for sale, please let me know. Thanks in advance,
--- WhalerAce
jimh posted 02-12-2014 02:50 PM ET (US)
Your deal was a good one, in my estimation. Look for a used engine with only freshwater use. Perhaps you can find one in the Midwest, as a trade-in at a dealer. The problem is older Yamaha two-stroke-power-cycle engines seem to run forever in freshwater, and it may be hard to find a used one.
K Albus posted 02-12-2014 03:39 PM ET (US)
Regarding the trailer, be sure to check the laws of the states you will do most of your towing in. Many states require brakes on all axles.
Also, don't skimp on the trailer. Figure out the weight of the boat with motor, full fuel, etc., and make sure the trailer (and its axles) are rated to carry the weight. When I purchased my last boat, the dealership tried to push me into an undersized trailer. I think they were trying to save me some money. I put a lot of miles on my trailer, so I was more concerned about getting one that was up to the task rather than saving a few hundred dollars. Make sure your salesman isn't pushing you into an undersized trailer.
elenakagan posted 02-16-2014 03:33 PM ET (US)
I suggest a Yam 200 hpdi, newer technology and unlike the other posters I had a 01 21' Ventura.
Jefecinco posted 02-16-2014 07:36 PM ET (US)
I believe Yamaha is no longer in the two stroke HPDI market. I admit to not being absolutely sure.
Butch
Tom W Clark posted 02-16-2014 07:50 PM ET (US)
They still make 150, 175 and 200 HP models in the VMax HPDI Line.
http://www.yamahaoutboards.com/outboards/2-Stroke-HPDI/overview
I wouldn't put one on a 21' Ventura
Mambo Minnow posted 02-17-2014 05:32 PM ET (US)
Ace, Yamaha still sells the 3.3L 225 HP four stroke with manual controls. I'd consider that route to get the new warranty protection for 6 years.

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Author	Topic: 2001 Ventura 21 Hull Value
WhalerAce	posted 01-17-2014 01:24 AM ET (US) As those of you who saw my ad in the Marketplace forum know, I was looking to replace my Temptation 25 with a smaller Whaler, a 21 Ventura. As it turns out, the 225 HP Yamaha outboard that powers the boat is toast, and according to the dealer, not worth repairing. Now the individual who was selling the rig is asking $9,500 for the hull (no engine, no trailer). So now, what do you think the hull is worth? The boat has been sitting outside on the dealer's lot for about two years. The fiberglass is chalky (smears white on your hands when you touch it), and the upholstery no longer has a shine, but still appears to be pliable and not torn. What could have been a sweet deal has now turned into a exercise in procuring separate components from different sources. We feel that the Ventura is the kind of Whaler that we want now, because of its ease in boarding and the bow-seating option that the Temptation does not have. Thanks in advance, --- WhalerAce
WhalerAce	posted 01-17-2014 01:28 AM ET (US) By the way, I would like to repower the boat with either a Yamaha two- or four-stroke, or an E-TEC (but not Ficht). Either a 225 HP or 250 HP model is what I am pursuing.
boatdryver	posted 01-17-2014 09:16 AM ET (US) if you haven't already done so you could go to Boattrader.com and search for Venturas. I recently did this and there were several 21 foot Venturas ranging in model year back to 2001. Asking prices vary a lot. Most have trailers. knowing what you know now about engine prices you can get an idea of what you would be willing to pay for a bare hull that needs cosmetic work. The trailer alone will be a lot. JimL
Jefecinco	posted 01-17-2014 09:33 AM ET (US) I'm sure you've considered this, but check prices of a similar Ventura with power and a trailer. Try to determine an average. From that price deduct your approximate cost for a replacement engine and installation and a trailer. It's likely the batteries will require replacement and the electronics will have no value if you want to factor that into the equation. What remains is the approximate value of the hull to you. Or, take the $9500 and add to it the cost of the engine, installation, and trailer. Compare that to the average market price of a Ventura which is ready to go. Either way you'll be prepared to offer what the hull is worth to you. I believe my preference would be for a well cared for ready to go Ventura with a known engine that can be examined at a local shop before buying. That solution would also allow for a decent sea trial and accurate performance numbers before buying. Butch
OMCrobert	posted 01-17-2014 09:42 AM ET (US) In situations like this I normally have the engine lined up before the boat hull when thinking about mating up a project. The engine is the budget buster and makes or breaks the project. If I have a line on a sweetheart of an OX66 250hp that has been babied then I would be more interested in a bare hull vs hull first then finding an engine. This time of year and given the boat is not ready for the water, I would offer $6,000 cash, leave your phone number and walk away. I would wager you would get a call back. The used boat market especially for projects is very soft right now.
WhalerAce	posted 01-17-2014 10:33 AM ET (US) Appreciate the input so far. To be more complete, the boat and engine were down to $11,800 when I tried to put a deposit down, only to find that someone had placed a deposit directly with the owner while the consigning dealership was closed for the Christmas break. When they tried a sea-trial at the beginning of the year, a water leak was discovered around the starboard head, and when they pulled the head, found that corrosion had eaten away some of the block. Previous to this, however, everyone had assumed that the engine was in good shape. This rig has been on the lot for about eighteen months, and orinally was priced at around $21,000. I had watched the price come down. So now, knowing that I "COULD have had" the boat and trailer for the $11,800 is affecting my thinking about what the total package price should be. I always knew that I had to buy a new trailer, so that does not enter into the equation. I have the Temptation and a 21' Ribside that I was going to sell so that I could, in effect, trade even to get the Ventura. So now the total rig price will affect how much I sell my stuff for.
jimh	posted 01-17-2014 11:43 AM ET (US) One approach to finding the new value without an engine is to subtract a reasonable cost for a used Yamaha 2001 225-HP engine. I suspect that engine was a two-stroke power cycle engine. Let's estimate the value with that assumption. I'd say a 2001 225-HP outboard was worth perhaps $3,500 if it were in great shape and looked like new. If there was a deal pending at $11,800 for the boat and engine, which assumed the engine was in good condition, then we subtract $3,500 for loss of the engine. This makes the boat-only price about $8,300. I am confused about a trailer for the boat. Was a trailer ever part of the package? If you have to buy a trailer for a hefty 21-foot boat you will need a tandem axle trailer. A new tandem axle trailer for a 21-foot boat will be at around $4,000. A new 225-HP engine--oh boy, that will be expensive. Even the lowest-price, out-of-state, down-south, good-ol'-boy, black-cowling, out-the-back-door, evade-the-state-sales-tax, two-stroke engines at that horsepower are $15,000. Let's say you can get the boat for $8,300, you get a new engine and trailer for $19,000, making the total package $27,300. That's for a 13-year-old boat with a new engine and trailer. I would use that figure as a benchmark, and shop around for alternative deals.
jimh	posted 01-17-2014 11:50 AM ET (US) OMCRobert observes: quote: The used boat market especially for projects is very soft right now. I think that is a very good assessment.
silentpardner	posted 01-17-2014 05:56 PM ET (US) I would offer $2000 cash, and show the money. I doubt that the dealer has any more than this in it. Carry the cash to go up to 3 grand, and show it if the dealer forces you to do this. If your money is not accepted immediately, I would not worry about it. You will either find a better deal elsewhere or the dealer will call you back when they get tired of it sitting around. The key is patience :)
Buoy	posted 01-25-2014 09:28 AM ET (US) I agree with OMCrobert, that hull is worth at least $6,000. It sounds like the boat is missing both the torneau and cockpit covers. While these items do become available on the web intermittently, you'll need to monitor your searches closely as they sell quickly. What else does the hull need? From my experience (I've owned two), that particular hull needs trim tabs as it tends to be starboard heavy. Is the full bimini top and enclosure included? If so, it offers nice protection from the elements but is a bit tricky to snap and zip up. It's a very heavy hull and rides beautifully for a 21 footer, I recommend a 250hp engine if possible. I had a Yamaha 200hpdi which was sluggish and an Optimax 225 which was sufficient. I rode in one with an Optimax 200 which was also sluggish. If you're accustomed to standing while underway in your tempatation, take a few minutes and stand behind the helm to ensure you have sufficent standing room AND compare the windshield heights to ensure you have sufficient wind protection. The 210 Ventura is a very versatile hull, a few years back I opted to sell my 235 Conquest and 20' Dauntless to downsize to a single boat for maintenance purposes. I purchased my 2nd 210 Ventura and used it for the whole season. While I loved the boat and guests enjoyed the bow seating, I did miss the superior ride, full windshield protection, and the cabin feature of the 235 Conquest. In the end I sold the 210 Ventura and re-purchased a 235 Conquest and an 18' Dauntless which fit my needs perfectly. I guess ideally you would purchase the hull and a used motor and invest as little as possible to determine whether that hull works for you. You'll know for sure by owning and using it for a full season, I'm not certain that a test-drive will reveal all the distinctions. Good luck and keep us updated.
vze2gbs4	posted 01-26-2014 12:29 AM ET (US) 6000 with a trailer 5000 just a boat top ( assuming seats and fiberglass is in decent shape ). Not a penny more or look somewhere else .
WhalerAce	posted 02-03-2014 07:43 PM ET (US) I thank you all for your inputs. When I calculated the actual cost (engine cost, shipping, re-rigging, prop) of replacing the engine with one of similar vintage (2001), the hull value actually comes to a tad less than $4,000. I have submitted that offer to the broker. We will see what happens. You guys will be the second to know. On a similar note, I am looking for a 250HP Yamaha OX-66, 25" shaft, in good shape, so if you know of a good candidate, please let me know. Or an E-TEC, 250HP or higher. Or a LOW price on a 300HP Yamhaha . . . Thanks for all the comments, --- Ace
sraab928	posted 02-03-2014 08:05 PM ET (US) Good luck Ace! I've been keeping an eye out for a motor for you.
WhalerAce	posted 02-12-2014 12:37 AM ET (US) Here is an update: I am buying the boat only for $5000. Not quite as low as I wanted, but it is a heck of a boat. Now I have to get an engine and put a new trailer on order. Since it has had a Yamaha, I guess I will repower with a Yamaha. I am still looking for an OX-66, and as late a vintage as I can find. I have found a few on e-Bay from bulk resellers such as ARGMARINE, and this brings up a couple of questions; One engine that I found, for $6,500, is a counter-rotation engine, a 2001. I have only ever seen one Whaler that was powered by a single counter-rotation engine, so I know they are out there. Is there really any difference in performance of the counter-rotation and standard rotation? I feel like propeller selection might be limited (or maybe not) in the 17-pitch range. What are your thoughts about a counter-rotation engine? Has anyone on this forum purchased an engine from ARGMARINE? I have googled them for complaints, but have really only found one complaint, while the rest of the comments seem to be positive. I will also purchasing a new trailer. One quote I have is for $3,300 for an aluminum, twin-torsion-axled, front wheel brake Road King trailer. I will call Continental Trailers tomorrow for more pricing info. If any of you know of a 250 HP OX-66 that is in excellent condition for sale, please let me know. Thanks in advance, --- WhalerAce
jimh	posted 02-12-2014 02:50 PM ET (US) Your deal was a good one, in my estimation. Look for a used engine with only freshwater use. Perhaps you can find one in the Midwest, as a trade-in at a dealer. The problem is older Yamaha two-stroke-power-cycle engines seem to run forever in freshwater, and it may be hard to find a used one.
K Albus	posted 02-12-2014 03:39 PM ET (US) Regarding the trailer, be sure to check the laws of the states you will do most of your towing in. Many states require brakes on all axles. Also, don't skimp on the trailer. Figure out the weight of the boat with motor, full fuel, etc., and make sure the trailer (and its axles) are rated to carry the weight. When I purchased my last boat, the dealership tried to push me into an undersized trailer. I think they were trying to save me some money. I put a lot of miles on my trailer, so I was more concerned about getting one that was up to the task rather than saving a few hundred dollars. Make sure your salesman isn't pushing you into an undersized trailer.
elenakagan	posted 02-16-2014 03:33 PM ET (US) I suggest a Yam 200 hpdi, newer technology and unlike the other posters I had a 01 21' Ventura.
Jefecinco	posted 02-16-2014 07:36 PM ET (US) I believe Yamaha is no longer in the two stroke HPDI market. I admit to not being absolutely sure. Butch
Tom W Clark	posted 02-16-2014 07:50 PM ET (US) They still make 150, 175 and 200 HP models in the VMax HPDI Line. http://www.yamahaoutboards.com/outboards/2-Stroke-HPDI/overview I wouldn't put one on a 21' Ventura
Mambo Minnow	posted 02-17-2014 05:32 PM ET (US) Ace, Yamaha still sells the 3.3L 225 HP four stroke with manual controls. I'd consider that route to get the new warranty protection for 6 years.