Seller's Power of Attorney as Part of Used Boat Sale

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Author Topic:   Seller's Power of Attorney as Part of Used Boat Sale

martyn1075 posted 01-20-2014 09:05 PM ET (US)
I'm selling my boat and I have a fellow who is quite interested in it. We are at the stage of closing the deal as they say. I'm selling it to a gentleman from the US and since I'm Canadian I was unsure if there are any differences I should be aware of.
In particular my buyer is financing this purchase and in result I have been made aware I will need to sign and notarize (SPOA) a sellers power of attorney form. This form allows the new owner the owning rights to the vessel. This is fine BUT in order for me to get my money I have been told the bank needs this document signed first before any form of payment is made to me. My first thoughts is no that doesn't sound right. I thought that singing over the title is always done after not before and besides this is a sellers power of attorney which enables someone else the right to buy or sell.
However the bank seems to want there interest protected to put a lean against the boats new owner. Basically so he doesn't run with the money. Personally I have never heard of this I have purchased three boats a number of used cars and I have never been asked nor asked a seller to sign this document.
Since many of you guys are from the US and have purchased boats, is this something that is legitimate? Does this happen with US banks and lenders? It doesn't happen up here as far as I know. Basically your qualified for a loan money is transfered and off you go to buy your car/boat. I obviously don't want to lose my boat and I don't want to lose the deal either. He seems to be a good guy has taken the time to pay for a engine checks and survey etc. Should I be concerned? Also I offered an escrow account by a lawyer to handle this deal and was turned down. The bank is not interested, that they offer this service and its what would they would be doing in this situation anyways.
What if I were to meet the fellow at the bank and signed this document in the bank at which the bank officer could then immediately wire the funds to my account would this be acceptable?
Thanks,
Martyn
Chuck Tribolet posted 01-20-2014 09:27 PM ET (US)
Are you giving power of attorney to the bank or to the buyer?
If buyer, I'd be really worried. If bank, much less so.
On a US house purchase, an independent party (not bank, seller,
or buyer) usually provides the escrow service.

Chuck
martyn1075 posted 01-20-2014 09:50 PM ET (US)
It's the bank so I'm told. This fellow can't send me money unless I sign this SPOA deal over if not. Seems strange to me. They want the collateral in my boat I guess. However doesn't the buyer who is financing put up the collateral to get the boat? Maybe a car or house etc. Im not sure its my responsibility, I'm the seller and I do not request a third party to buy or sell my boat.
Lets say I sign this form the bank issues a cheque, takes 30 days for a us to cad cheque to clear. In the meantime I don't own the boat anymore and he then sells the boat to somebody else for much less. I go after my boat its gone. Bank wants their money bank I'm signed up on the spoa form. Maybe this too far fetched.
Martyn
martyn1075 posted 01-20-2014 09:54 PM ET (US)
Personally I think this fellow is fine and all is good its probably more my mind that is turning on this. However I never been down this road before with a spoa form under these circumstances so how is one to really know. Cheques can be stopped in progress all the time. Money wire is better I guess its faster and harder to retrieve.
Binkster posted 01-20-2014 10:10 PM ET (US)
In my humble opinion, how the buyer comes up with the money is of no concern of yours. When he shows up with the cash or bank check, then you sign over the title. In these days maybe cash is the way to go. (check the serial numbers that they are not all the same). When my daughter sold her sports car for $25,000, she met the out-of-state buyer at her bank, he had the money in cash, the teller checked that the money was real, then deposited it into her account, and then she signed over the title.
rich
AZdave posted 01-20-2014 11:01 PM ET (US)
I would be worried about the deal as you describe it. If it is possible for you to transport the boat, you could park it outside his bank and have the banker explain the paperwork face to face. Then you can watch the teller draw up your bank check. There should be no objection to this. In most states a notary is required for transfer of ownership. It can just as well be inside his bank.
jimh posted 01-20-2014 11:23 PM ET (US)
I would be careful. I have never heard of a "seller's power of attorney." It sounds like the holder could change the price, and if the buyer is the holder of the SPOA, he could change the price to be much more favorable. I would not surrender that power to anyone, and particularly to the buyer. Why would the buyer act in your (the seller's) best interest?
martyn1075 posted 01-21-2014 01:49 AM ET (US)
What it sounds like to me is that I don't own the boat anymore and he or she/the bank or and any other third party could now do what they want. I mean typically thats what a "power of attorney" is. There are such forms called "limited power of attorney that enable someone else to ONLY do what's instructed in the document. Power of Attorney's are almost always used on big ticket items like estates where someone is gravelly ill maybe physically or mentally unstable and the power is given to a "trusted party" to make the decisions. They literately can take every penny out of your account and its legal!
In this case I don't think they want money its the boat and if its the bank they want it for a lean purpose which sounds reasonable. Then again before payment has been made? Thats what I'm struggling with. That seems like an awful large amount of trust on my part to someone in a different country many miles apart.

Buckda posted 01-21-2014 04:16 AM ET (US)
Sounds like the buyer needs to find a different bank or you need to find a different buyer.
Lenders are pretty skittish these days and lending for an international purchase might make a bank officer ask for some out of the ordinary paperwork.
However.
I'm with Jimh. I would be very reluctant (ok, more toward the adamantly opposed side of the scale) to give them power of attorney since neither the buyer nor his lender represent your interests.
You could bring in a third party to broker the deal, but this must be a really nice used Whaler to get to the point of being worth those kinds of time and money costs.
Good luck.
Chuck Tribolet posted 01-21-2014 08:56 AM ET (US)
A notary is not required to transfer a car, boat, or trailer
in California. Just the current owner's signature on the
pink slip (legal title document from DMV).
Chuck
Peter posted 01-21-2014 09:14 AM ET (US)
What document do you have that would function as a title to the boat? Sounds like the bank is looking for something that it can place a lien on and hold it like a title on a car until the loan is paid off.
Normally, the buyer should provide the money and you turn over the keys (possession) and title. Its the buyer's responsability to get the title in the hands of the bank.
I've bought and sold many boats and this transaction sounds too complicated to me.
Jefecinco posted 01-21-2014 09:38 AM ET (US)
Why not ask your banker? If they advise against the method perhaps they can work with the buyers bank to find a method comfortable for both banks.
Butch
martyn1075 posted 01-21-2014 12:02 PM ET (US)
I have already provided the bank a paper that shows proof that I purchased the boat. It's a document that with a copy of the cheque I wrote to the precious owner and on the back is the transfer title (license number to my boat) I haven't signed it but they wanted to know more on who owns this boat. Other documents submitted are the survey which includes a determined overal value. To me they have everything they need but someone still wants the power over my decison. The only thing I can somewhat comprehend is they want a put lien directly on the buyers loan the buyer indicated its a State requirement and at the same time they will take care of the new registration numbers. However at the same time apparently none of this happens until the money has been cleared first. It more less is notorized with a our bill of sale and held in trust at the bank. My question is how do I know? One thing for sure is that as soon as I sign that sheet I techincally don't own that boat anymore and I have no security in funds or deposit in return.
EJO posted 01-21-2014 12:07 PM ET (US)
Sounds fishy to me. But if you want to go thru with this buyer you can have his bank deposit money into your bank, based on a letter of intend to buy your boat. That money will only be released (to you) when stipulations of that letter have been met. (title sign over, boat delivered, keys given, etc)
Just call any import/export broker in your area and ask them how you sell a registered Can product to the US and they will tell you.
[B}Don't do the POA[/B]
martyn1075 posted 01-21-2014 12:15 PM ET (US)
Peter I think you are correct I think that's what the bank wants to do. Where I live we can either fully register a boat or just licence the boat. If it has a previous number you can just transfer the number into your name. It's not a proof of ownership. We need to carry other documents for that such as a bill of sale.
martyn1075 posted 01-21-2014 12:28 PM ET (US)
EJO I very much agree and with others as well. It's been my feeling on it all along. The only thing I could do is in the bill of sale make some add on clauses that indicate ownership is not transferred until money is cleared
However I'm quite sure none of that matters if I have handed out a signed POA form first.I think it overpowers anything else. I have an opportunity to meet his buyer in his bank which does sound comforting but the POA is first in line from what I am been told. Money can be wired immediately after.
Peter posted 01-21-2014 03:06 PM ET (US)
I'd need to see the document before commenting further.
kwik_wurk posted 01-21-2014 03:58 PM ET (US)
I think a broker would have this information down pat. Do we not have any brokers in the forum, or any friends on the border that could answer this.
Dave Sutton posted 01-22-2014 12:31 AM ET (US)
Set forth your terms:
Wire transfer in full before delivery of bill of sale.
That's it. There's no more to discuss. Let the buyer figure out how.

If the buyer can't do that, find another buyer.

Dave
.
Chuck Tribolet posted 01-22-2014 09:51 AM ET (US)
Dave, your terms are exactly the MO of a fraudulent seller.
Chuck
Binkster posted 01-22-2014 10:13 AM ET (US)
Yea, I agree Chuck, like I wrote in my post, Its better to meet the buyer face to face, have the boat ready to tow or ship, have the title in hand, and the buyer hands over the cash, and everyone is satisfied and happy. New hundred doller bills would likely be real.
rich
RandyV posted 01-22-2014 04:40 PM ET (US)
I bought my new (to me) 2000 Outrage 18 late last summer from a Craigslist ad exactly the way Binkster laid out. The deal seemed almost too good to believe, I took cash ($100 bills) in case the deal was as represented and the deal was done.
On my previous Whaler purchase (1979 Montauk 17), I took a cashiers check and after a test ride and evaluation, the seller & I went to his bank where we deposited the cashiers check and he signed the title - done deal.
In this day where it seems the norm of borrowing to meet your desired lifestyle, I find that if you have cash on hand for what you are looking to purchase, you can get a much better (and faster) deal. If someone is making it hard on you as the seller, find another buyer.
17 bodega posted 01-23-2014 02:48 AM ET (US)
It just doesn't smell right. Durable Power of Attorney??
Please do not sign that without a Canadian attorney looking at it. As mentioned here, the BUYER should be dealing with any and all red tape, lienholder documents, title, etc. with the financial institution lending them the money for the boat. You should simply be paid in cash or certified funds.
Is the buyer very close by or is this deal somewhat "long distance"? RUN if it is....
Are they paying market value for the boat? Overypaying? If they are RUN from this deal.

"It's the bank so I'm told. This fellow can't send me money unless I sign this SPOA deal over if not" ---- this sounds like the guy is far away and wants to "send" money... NO BUENO!
Martyn.... what does your gut tell you here? I hear the doubts in your posts. Please let us know how this concludes. This could serve as a lesson to all of us. too many things seem wrong here.
K Albus posted 01-23-2014 01:34 PM ET (US)
Martyn, free legal advice (especially over the internet) is usually worth less than you paid for it.
If you have concerns about the proposed form of the sale, talk to somebody who should know the answers to your questions. For instance, you could speak with a boat broker who regularly ships boats from Canada to the U.S. Or you might speak with your own banker and ask about the Sellers Power of Attorney ("SPOA")form that seems to concern you.
Most of the responders on this thread appear to have assumed that the proposed SPOA would give the buyer's bank complete control and/or ownership over your boat. I don't know how they can jump to that conclusion without first reading the SPOA.
I sold my Dauntless 180 from the U.S. to a buyer in Barbados. The international aspect of the sale added some extra work to the process, but not enough to make me "RUN from the deal." We started with a contract (i.e., a Bill of Sale) signed by both parties. The buyer then wired the funds to me. I then shipped the boat to the buyer.
As long as you have everything properly spelled out in the contract, and you don't deliver the boat until payment is received, you should be fine. Just be sure that everything is properly spelled out in the contract. Don't sign anything that you don't understand.
Binkster posted 01-23-2014 04:46 PM ET (US)
K
Apparently the buyer for your boat had cash, or if he financed it it was handled on his end and was of no concern to you.
martyn's sale is different from yours, it seems. Why should he get involved in all that red tape, although it may very well be on the up and up. He might very well have to hire an attorney to help him through this deal, as it doesn't seem simple as it should be.
I think he got good advice here from us non-attorneys. Its mostly common sense.
rich
martyn1075 posted 01-23-2014 06:55 PM ET (US)
It is good advice and I'm thankful trust me. Its complicated topic with much to get into but at the same time I have learned it has a simple answer in my case. Not so simple if in the wrong hands so let me explain.
I have taken the time to look into it with care because at the end of the day I have a very keen buyer which is hard to find sometimes and I don't want to just brush him off but at the same time I don't want to get burned. I talked to a lawyer, a broker, a successful real-estate agent I know well.
Lawyer: don't do it because you simply lose all control of your selling rights and in some cases yes you lose your asset. The tough one here is that you have to fully understand the terms more specifically who you are dealing with. This person or group needs to be close by if they are out of town and you just sign this form in good faith thinking you will get your money you could be very wrong. Anyone can just make up a document with a fake header and make a draft with open sections for a seller to sign. If I send one up who is signing it the other end? The other no no is they may not want the boat personally but may have another buyer waiting for less. By signing you have given them that person whoever that is the rights to sell it on your behalf. Do you get the money back in trust? No it comes back to who are you dealing with. Pretty scary stuff. Maybe the other person could careless about the boat but wants the money from the bank. Your boat is the collateral and in return they don't bother to make payments the bank has their boat now. Someone is still on the hook for making payments maybe that person is you. Now this is rare but you have to understand the terms on the document because you are allowing someone to work with them on your behalf.
Broker: say no! on an international sell they would request a bond where the money is kept in a safe account such as an escrow until all paper work and titles are dealt with properly. The moment they are the funds are released and the boat is officially turned over to the new owner. He said its crazy to sign over a any document over to anyone including the bank first before a money is transferred safely. Also there is a company called marine titles always call and check on a international deal to assure there really is a title and its not stolen boat because shipping from Canada form US is actually very difficulty the right paper work must be in order that includes taxable items and currency issues if any, and if they do and there is a problem you might be on the hook for charges which includes delivery. Try getting your boat back.
The other side:
Banker:
1) Its a legal issue when singing these forms so a notary is always involved and yes they can and do have the right to ask a seller to hand this over because they want make sure there interest is covered. However, this would only happen if a seller and buyer cannot meet in the bank and because the seller (me is out of country even though we are bordering and have good relationship in the business world they want me to sign this form.
2) If a trailer is involved in a private deal (cnd trailer title) but we still meet in person I would be required to sign this spoa form but apparently on the trailer only.
To sum this up in my case I have a good honest buyer who I will meet in the bank and the spoa is not required so all is good. Good lesson though if you ever sell a boat privately and get asked to sign this form yes be aware don't sign it over without some serious due diligence.

Binkster posted 01-24-2014 10:24 AM ET (US)
Let us kno how it all works out. Good luck.
rich
martyn1075 posted 01-31-2014 01:28 AM ET (US)
Should I hold the title in hand until the money has been transferred and cleared?
This is how I understand the way it should go down. However in this case I would have to bring the title into the bank meet the bank loan officer we sit down I sign the bill of sale, and sign off the title to the boat. Soon after I'm issued a a cashiers cheque. I can have a funds wired to my understanding if I prefer.
Does this sound legitimate?
Martyn

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Author	Topic: Seller's Power of Attorney as Part of Used Boat Sale
martyn1075	posted 01-20-2014 09:05 PM ET (US) I'm selling my boat and I have a fellow who is quite interested in it. We are at the stage of closing the deal as they say. I'm selling it to a gentleman from the US and since I'm Canadian I was unsure if there are any differences I should be aware of. In particular my buyer is financing this purchase and in result I have been made aware I will need to sign and notarize (SPOA) a sellers power of attorney form. This form allows the new owner the owning rights to the vessel. This is fine BUT in order for me to get my money I have been told the bank needs this document signed first before any form of payment is made to me. My first thoughts is no that doesn't sound right. I thought that singing over the title is always done after not before and besides this is a sellers power of attorney which enables someone else the right to buy or sell. However the bank seems to want there interest protected to put a lean against the boats new owner. Basically so he doesn't run with the money. Personally I have never heard of this I have purchased three boats a number of used cars and I have never been asked nor asked a seller to sign this document. Since many of you guys are from the US and have purchased boats, is this something that is legitimate? Does this happen with US banks and lenders? It doesn't happen up here as far as I know. Basically your qualified for a loan money is transfered and off you go to buy your car/boat. I obviously don't want to lose my boat and I don't want to lose the deal either. He seems to be a good guy has taken the time to pay for a engine checks and survey etc. Should I be concerned? Also I offered an escrow account by a lawyer to handle this deal and was turned down. The bank is not interested, that they offer this service and its what would they would be doing in this situation anyways. What if I were to meet the fellow at the bank and signed this document in the bank at which the bank officer could then immediately wire the funds to my account would this be acceptable? Thanks, Martyn
Chuck Tribolet	posted 01-20-2014 09:27 PM ET (US) Are you giving power of attorney to the bank or to the buyer? If buyer, I'd be really worried. If bank, much less so. On a US house purchase, an independent party (not bank, seller, or buyer) usually provides the escrow service. Chuck
martyn1075	posted 01-20-2014 09:50 PM ET (US) It's the bank so I'm told. This fellow can't send me money unless I sign this SPOA deal over if not. Seems strange to me. They want the collateral in my boat I guess. However doesn't the buyer who is financing put up the collateral to get the boat? Maybe a car or house etc. Im not sure its my responsibility, I'm the seller and I do not request a third party to buy or sell my boat. Lets say I sign this form the bank issues a cheque, takes 30 days for a us to cad cheque to clear. In the meantime I don't own the boat anymore and he then sells the boat to somebody else for much less. I go after my boat its gone. Bank wants their money bank I'm signed up on the spoa form. Maybe this too far fetched. Martyn
martyn1075	posted 01-20-2014 09:54 PM ET (US) Personally I think this fellow is fine and all is good its probably more my mind that is turning on this. However I never been down this road before with a spoa form under these circumstances so how is one to really know. Cheques can be stopped in progress all the time. Money wire is better I guess its faster and harder to retrieve.
Binkster	posted 01-20-2014 10:10 PM ET (US) In my humble opinion, how the buyer comes up with the money is of no concern of yours. When he shows up with the cash or bank check, then you sign over the title. In these days maybe cash is the way to go. (check the serial numbers that they are not all the same). When my daughter sold her sports car for $25,000, she met the out-of-state buyer at her bank, he had the money in cash, the teller checked that the money was real, then deposited it into her account, and then she signed over the title. rich
AZdave	posted 01-20-2014 11:01 PM ET (US) I would be worried about the deal as you describe it. If it is possible for you to transport the boat, you could park it outside his bank and have the banker explain the paperwork face to face. Then you can watch the teller draw up your bank check. There should be no objection to this. In most states a notary is required for transfer of ownership. It can just as well be inside his bank.
jimh	posted 01-20-2014 11:23 PM ET (US) I would be careful. I have never heard of a "seller's power of attorney." It sounds like the holder could change the price, and if the buyer is the holder of the SPOA, he could change the price to be much more favorable. I would not surrender that power to anyone, and particularly to the buyer. Why would the buyer act in your (the seller's) best interest?
martyn1075	posted 01-21-2014 01:49 AM ET (US) What it sounds like to me is that I don't own the boat anymore and he or she/the bank or and any other third party could now do what they want. I mean typically thats what a "power of attorney" is. There are such forms called "limited power of attorney that enable someone else to ONLY do what's instructed in the document. Power of Attorney's are almost always used on big ticket items like estates where someone is gravelly ill maybe physically or mentally unstable and the power is given to a "trusted party" to make the decisions. They literately can take every penny out of your account and its legal! In this case I don't think they want money its the boat and if its the bank they want it for a lean purpose which sounds reasonable. Then again before payment has been made? Thats what I'm struggling with. That seems like an awful large amount of trust on my part to someone in a different country many miles apart.
Buckda	posted 01-21-2014 04:16 AM ET (US) Sounds like the buyer needs to find a different bank or you need to find a different buyer. Lenders are pretty skittish these days and lending for an international purchase might make a bank officer ask for some out of the ordinary paperwork. However. I'm with Jimh. I would be very reluctant (ok, more toward the adamantly opposed side of the scale) to give them power of attorney since neither the buyer nor his lender represent your interests. You could bring in a third party to broker the deal, but this must be a really nice used Whaler to get to the point of being worth those kinds of time and money costs. Good luck.
Chuck Tribolet	posted 01-21-2014 08:56 AM ET (US) A notary is not required to transfer a car, boat, or trailer in California. Just the current owner's signature on the pink slip (legal title document from DMV). Chuck
Peter	posted 01-21-2014 09:14 AM ET (US) What document do you have that would function as a title to the boat? Sounds like the bank is looking for something that it can place a lien on and hold it like a title on a car until the loan is paid off. Normally, the buyer should provide the money and you turn over the keys (possession) and title. Its the buyer's responsability to get the title in the hands of the bank. I've bought and sold many boats and this transaction sounds too complicated to me.
Jefecinco	posted 01-21-2014 09:38 AM ET (US) Why not ask your banker? If they advise against the method perhaps they can work with the buyers bank to find a method comfortable for both banks. Butch
martyn1075	posted 01-21-2014 12:02 PM ET (US) I have already provided the bank a paper that shows proof that I purchased the boat. It's a document that with a copy of the cheque I wrote to the precious owner and on the back is the transfer title (license number to my boat) I haven't signed it but they wanted to know more on who owns this boat. Other documents submitted are the survey which includes a determined overal value. To me they have everything they need but someone still wants the power over my decison. The only thing I can somewhat comprehend is they want a put lien directly on the buyers loan the buyer indicated its a State requirement and at the same time they will take care of the new registration numbers. However at the same time apparently none of this happens until the money has been cleared first. It more less is notorized with a our bill of sale and held in trust at the bank. My question is how do I know? One thing for sure is that as soon as I sign that sheet I techincally don't own that boat anymore and I have no security in funds or deposit in return.
EJO	posted 01-21-2014 12:07 PM ET (US) Sounds fishy to me. But if you want to go thru with this buyer you can have his bank deposit money into your bank, based on a letter of intend to buy your boat. That money will only be released (to you) when stipulations of that letter have been met. (title sign over, boat delivered, keys given, etc) Just call any import/export broker in your area and ask them how you sell a registered Can product to the US and they will tell you. [B}Don't do the POA[/B]
martyn1075	posted 01-21-2014 12:15 PM ET (US) Peter I think you are correct I think that's what the bank wants to do. Where I live we can either fully register a boat or just licence the boat. If it has a previous number you can just transfer the number into your name. It's not a proof of ownership. We need to carry other documents for that such as a bill of sale.
martyn1075	posted 01-21-2014 12:28 PM ET (US) EJO I very much agree and with others as well. It's been my feeling on it all along. The only thing I could do is in the bill of sale make some add on clauses that indicate ownership is not transferred until money is cleared However I'm quite sure none of that matters if I have handed out a signed POA form first.I think it overpowers anything else. I have an opportunity to meet his buyer in his bank which does sound comforting but the POA is first in line from what I am been told. Money can be wired immediately after.
Peter	posted 01-21-2014 03:06 PM ET (US) I'd need to see the document before commenting further.
kwik_wurk	posted 01-21-2014 03:58 PM ET (US) I think a broker would have this information down pat. Do we not have any brokers in the forum, or any friends on the border that could answer this.
Dave Sutton	posted 01-22-2014 12:31 AM ET (US) Set forth your terms: Wire transfer in full before delivery of bill of sale. That's it. There's no more to discuss. Let the buyer figure out how. If the buyer can't do that, find another buyer. Dave .
Chuck Tribolet	posted 01-22-2014 09:51 AM ET (US) Dave, your terms are exactly the MO of a fraudulent seller. Chuck
Binkster	posted 01-22-2014 10:13 AM ET (US) Yea, I agree Chuck, like I wrote in my post, Its better to meet the buyer face to face, have the boat ready to tow or ship, have the title in hand, and the buyer hands over the cash, and everyone is satisfied and happy. New hundred doller bills would likely be real. rich
RandyV	posted 01-22-2014 04:40 PM ET (US) I bought my new (to me) 2000 Outrage 18 late last summer from a Craigslist ad exactly the way Binkster laid out. The deal seemed almost too good to believe, I took cash ($100 bills) in case the deal was as represented and the deal was done. On my previous Whaler purchase (1979 Montauk 17), I took a cashiers check and after a test ride and evaluation, the seller & I went to his bank where we deposited the cashiers check and he signed the title - done deal. In this day where it seems the norm of borrowing to meet your desired lifestyle, I find that if you have cash on hand for what you are looking to purchase, you can get a much better (and faster) deal. If someone is making it hard on you as the seller, find another buyer.
17 bodega	posted 01-23-2014 02:48 AM ET (US) It just doesn't smell right. Durable Power of Attorney?? Please do not sign that without a Canadian attorney looking at it. As mentioned here, the BUYER should be dealing with any and all red tape, lienholder documents, title, etc. with the financial institution lending them the money for the boat. You should simply be paid in cash or certified funds. Is the buyer very close by or is this deal somewhat "long distance"? RUN if it is.... Are they paying market value for the boat? Overypaying? If they are RUN from this deal. "It's the bank so I'm told. This fellow can't send me money unless I sign this SPOA deal over if not" ---- this sounds like the guy is far away and wants to "send" money... NO BUENO! Martyn.... what does your gut tell you here? I hear the doubts in your posts. Please let us know how this concludes. This could serve as a lesson to all of us. too many things seem wrong here.
K Albus	posted 01-23-2014 01:34 PM ET (US) Martyn, free legal advice (especially over the internet) is usually worth less than you paid for it. If you have concerns about the proposed form of the sale, talk to somebody who should know the answers to your questions. For instance, you could speak with a boat broker who regularly ships boats from Canada to the U.S. Or you might speak with your own banker and ask about the Sellers Power of Attorney ("SPOA")form that seems to concern you. Most of the responders on this thread appear to have assumed that the proposed SPOA would give the buyer's bank complete control and/or ownership over your boat. I don't know how they can jump to that conclusion without first reading the SPOA. I sold my Dauntless 180 from the U.S. to a buyer in Barbados. The international aspect of the sale added some extra work to the process, but not enough to make me "RUN from the deal." We started with a contract (i.e., a Bill of Sale) signed by both parties. The buyer then wired the funds to me. I then shipped the boat to the buyer. As long as you have everything properly spelled out in the contract, and you don't deliver the boat until payment is received, you should be fine. Just be sure that everything is properly spelled out in the contract. Don't sign anything that you don't understand.
Binkster	posted 01-23-2014 04:46 PM ET (US) K Apparently the buyer for your boat had cash, or if he financed it it was handled on his end and was of no concern to you. martyn's sale is different from yours, it seems. Why should he get involved in all that red tape, although it may very well be on the up and up. He might very well have to hire an attorney to help him through this deal, as it doesn't seem simple as it should be. I think he got good advice here from us non-attorneys. Its mostly common sense. rich
martyn1075	posted 01-23-2014 06:55 PM ET (US) It is good advice and I'm thankful trust me. Its complicated topic with much to get into but at the same time I have learned it has a simple answer in my case. Not so simple if in the wrong hands so let me explain. I have taken the time to look into it with care because at the end of the day I have a very keen buyer which is hard to find sometimes and I don't want to just brush him off but at the same time I don't want to get burned. I talked to a lawyer, a broker, a successful real-estate agent I know well. Lawyer: don't do it because you simply lose all control of your selling rights and in some cases yes you lose your asset. The tough one here is that you have to fully understand the terms more specifically who you are dealing with. This person or group needs to be close by if they are out of town and you just sign this form in good faith thinking you will get your money you could be very wrong. Anyone can just make up a document with a fake header and make a draft with open sections for a seller to sign. If I send one up who is signing it the other end? The other no no is they may not want the boat personally but may have another buyer waiting for less. By signing you have given them that person whoever that is the rights to sell it on your behalf. Do you get the money back in trust? No it comes back to who are you dealing with. Pretty scary stuff. Maybe the other person could careless about the boat but wants the money from the bank. Your boat is the collateral and in return they don't bother to make payments the bank has their boat now. Someone is still on the hook for making payments maybe that person is you. Now this is rare but you have to understand the terms on the document because you are allowing someone to work with them on your behalf. Broker: say no! on an international sell they would request a bond where the money is kept in a safe account such as an escrow until all paper work and titles are dealt with properly. The moment they are the funds are released and the boat is officially turned over to the new owner. He said its crazy to sign over a any document over to anyone including the bank first before a money is transferred safely. Also there is a company called marine titles always call and check on a international deal to assure there really is a title and its not stolen boat because shipping from Canada form US is actually very difficulty the right paper work must be in order that includes taxable items and currency issues if any, and if they do and there is a problem you might be on the hook for charges which includes delivery. Try getting your boat back. The other side: Banker: 1) Its a legal issue when singing these forms so a notary is always involved and yes they can and do have the right to ask a seller to hand this over because they want make sure there interest is covered. However, this would only happen if a seller and buyer cannot meet in the bank and because the seller (me is out of country even though we are bordering and have good relationship in the business world they want me to sign this form. 2) If a trailer is involved in a private deal (cnd trailer title) but we still meet in person I would be required to sign this spoa form but apparently on the trailer only. To sum this up in my case I have a good honest buyer who I will meet in the bank and the spoa is not required so all is good. Good lesson though if you ever sell a boat privately and get asked to sign this form yes be aware don't sign it over without some serious due diligence.
Binkster	posted 01-24-2014 10:24 AM ET (US) Let us kno how it all works out. Good luck. rich
martyn1075	posted 01-31-2014 01:28 AM ET (US) Should I hold the title in hand until the money has been transferred and cleared? This is how I understand the way it should go down. However in this case I would have to bring the title into the bank meet the bank loan officer we sit down I sign the bill of sale, and sign off the title to the boat. Soon after I'm issued a a cashiers cheque. I can have a funds wired to my understanding if I prefer. Does this sound legitimate? Martyn