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Author Topic:   Look before you buy flares (VDS)

jimp posted 02-27-2014 08:59 PM ET (US)
My current Visual Distress Signals (VDS, or flares) expire May 2014, so I need new flares for the coming boating season.
I went to the store looking for new ones. There they were, right in front, expiration date “May 2016”. I’d get two seasons out of them, 2014 and 2015 and then need to buy more for 2016. But right behind the “May 2016”, and for the exact same price was “May 2017” and another boating season - three seasons instead of two.
Take the time to look before you buy.

Tom W Clark posted 02-27-2014 10:13 PM ET (US)
Jim -- I have always done that. Most retailers put their oldest stock up front, for obvious reasons.
It's never happened to me, but I have folks tell of retailers scolding them for digging around though shelves looking to the newer expiration dates.
jimp posted 02-27-2014 10:18 PM ET (US)
Tom -
Yup, me too. Always happy when I "win".
Tom W Clark posted 02-27-2014 10:26 PM ET (US)
I couldn't care less about a box of oatmeal at the grocery store but flares are expensive and their value is zero four years after manufacture.
martyn1075 posted 02-28-2014 01:09 AM ET (US)
Not to sound naive but what exactly happens to flares that happen to be over there due date? I have never cared to find out but in a pinch would they not work?
FISHNFF posted 02-28-2014 02:10 AM ET (US)
You can carry old flares as spares. When needed, try them first.
I don't think it is illegal to carry them on board, but having old explosives make me a bit uneasy.
How old is too old?
FISHNFF
FISHNFF posted 02-28-2014 02:10 AM ET (US)
You can carry old flares as spares. When needed, try them first.
I don't think it is illegal to carry them on board, but having old explosives make me a bit uneasy.
How old is too old?
FISHNFF
Marsh posted 02-28-2014 03:52 AM ET (US)
Is it legal to add old, expired flares to one's July 4th fireworks display?
contender posted 02-28-2014 08:10 AM ET (US)
I agree with fish, if the flares are keep dry and out of harms way you would think they would be good for at least 5 years and more, Hard to believe they go bad in two. Another expense for boating that is very questionable...Government kick back?
tedious posted 02-28-2014 09:08 AM ET (US)
Two points of reference:
- My brother-in-law (who, typically, was driving the boat we share inappropriately fast in a no-wake zone) was boarded and given a ticket for having expired flares on board, despite the fact that this is not against requirements, and we did have the required number of properly dated flares.
- I fired off 6 expired flares in my back yard (well away from the coast) last winter. Some were 3 years out of date, some only 1. 5 of 6 fired, meaning they actually went up in the air, but only 1 of those 5 ignited when it got up there.
I therefore don't think there's much value in carrying expired flares.
Tim
bdb posted 02-28-2014 09:23 AM ET (US)
A responsible ship's store, like ours, will discount old flares appropriately. One irritant is that you are required to carry 3 but they are deliberately packed 4 to a pkg.
What kind of agency issued a ticket for having expired flares in addition to current ones? We have been repeatedly told by the Coast Guard and DNR to carry the old ones as back-ups and that's the message we send.
tedious posted 02-28-2014 09:31 AM ET (US)
I think it was USCG but I am not completely sure. I suspect they were determined to get him for something after he announced to the boarders that he was being unfairly targeted, because other boats were going just as fast. And the boarder (correctly) informed him that it isn't about speed, but rather amount of wake being generated.
Tim
jimh posted 02-28-2014 09:36 AM ET (US)
I have moved some of my expired flares to the trunk of my car for use on the highway in case of some emergency there.
I have also ignited an expired flare, for the purposes of learning how to ignite the flare and to see if it would work. I found the process of igniting the flare to be more difficult than I expected. The expired flare did ignite. Once the flare ignited I found it dangerous. If you ever dropped the flare into the boat cockpit, it could easily start something else burning.
My local retailer also discounts the flares whose expiration date is approaching.
Diver Dan posted 02-28-2014 10:12 AM ET (US)
Don't know of any regulations that would make carrying expired flares onboard an offense. Would require a quote from the regus if push comes to shove. As previously stated that do not satisfy the fed requirement for current ones, however, in a pinch and 50 miles offshore and drifting, I would feel a lot more comfortable having 8 extra expired in addition to the 4 current ones. Our Power Squadron holds an annual flare practice with some illuminating (pun intended) results. The death knell for any flare is moisture. Once the stricker gets damp or wet it's junk, unless you start it with another flare, but kept bone dry, 9 out of 10 times they do light, although lighting them is not as easy if never done before. If you have a food saver vacumm sealer, found that is the best way to keep all of them, broken down into groups of four, dry to a greater extent than leaving them in the plactic sale pouch. Like others, I do keep at least 4 in the truck, realizing that the burn time is far less than road flares.
jimp posted 02-28-2014 01:20 PM ET (US)
As mentioned before in CW, the Power Squadron, USCG Auxilary, and others often have "demonstrations" of all types of flares and they often get the flares from donations. For their demonstrations they request a LOCAL Notice to Mariners from the CG district stating the time and place. In this manner, mariners and the CG are notified before hand.
Life of flares?
- In my CG days back in the '80s, we fired off Very pistols using flares from World War II (40 years old) and many worked... and some didn't.
- Save your old flares and use them first, their reliability is excelent and you won't have to buy new ones right away.
JMARTIN posted 02-28-2014 02:29 PM ET (US)
The last time I was stopped and had a vessel inspection, the USCG did not want to see my flares because "we were in sight or 1/2 mile away or something like that, from land." I had never heard that one before, but I do keep expired and legal flares on board.
John

Chuck Tribolet posted 02-28-2014 04:53 PM ET (US)
I keep both expired and legal flares on board, in different
places, so unless the CG completely tosses the contents of
the console, they won't see the expired ones.
Chuck
jimp posted 02-28-2014 05:13 PM ET (US)
Tim (tedious) mentioned:

quote:
- My brother-in-law (who, typically, was driving the boat we share inappropriately fast in a no-wake zone) was boarded and given a ticket for having expired flares on board, despite the fact that this is not against requirements, and we did have the required number of properly dated flares.

I really hope it wasn't the USCG that said you can't have expired flares on board. Not part of the Boarding Manual and not on the USCG Aux checklist.
Having extra flares on board makes the CG's and other SAR agency's job much easier. What if the last flare seen "over there" was the 3rd or even 4th flare in the pack (mine came in a 3-pack)? Without additional, or expired flares on board there would be nothing left to guide the SAR assets.
Keep your outdated flares.
contender posted 03-01-2014 02:11 PM ET (US)
tedious, How can your brother in law be ticketed for carrying expired flares? This makes no sense what so ever especially if he meet the requirements of the new flares. This would be like getting a ticket for carrying a banana on the boat...I would have to fight this one...
martyn1075 posted 03-01-2014 03:44 PM ET (US)
Contender...don't let that banana go to waste! Eat it up for nutrition then go back and catch some fish.I
swist posted 03-02-2014 06:01 PM ET (US)
Question: Since dampness is what seems to do in flares, is there a risk that lighting an expired flare will cause it to break down and shoot out the side, or worse?
tedious posted 03-03-2014 09:08 AM ET (US)
Jimp, Contender:
Of course it makes no sense to be ticketed for having expired flares on board. But that didn't prevent the ticket from being handed out - and a fight would involve taking a day off from work and going to court. My BIL elected not to do that, but just pay the fine.
Me, I was just tickled about the whole thing, because the real reason they stopped him was he was throwing a big wake in a no wake zone - something he does frequently, and advocates that I do when I'm behind the wheel and he is a passenger.
Tim

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Author	Topic: Look before you buy flares (VDS)
jimp	posted 02-27-2014 08:59 PM ET (US) My current Visual Distress Signals (VDS, or flares) expire May 2014, so I need new flares for the coming boating season. I went to the store looking for new ones. There they were, right in front, expiration date “May 2016”. I’d get two seasons out of them, 2014 and 2015 and then need to buy more for 2016. But right behind the “May 2016”, and for the exact same price was “May 2017” and another boating season - three seasons instead of two. Take the time to look before you buy.
Tom W Clark	posted 02-27-2014 10:13 PM ET (US) Jim -- I have always done that. Most retailers put their oldest stock up front, for obvious reasons. It's never happened to me, but I have folks tell of retailers scolding them for digging around though shelves looking to the newer expiration dates.
jimp	posted 02-27-2014 10:18 PM ET (US) Tom - Yup, me too. Always happy when I "win".
Tom W Clark	posted 02-27-2014 10:26 PM ET (US) I couldn't care less about a box of oatmeal at the grocery store but flares are expensive and their value is zero four years after manufacture.
martyn1075	posted 02-28-2014 01:09 AM ET (US) Not to sound naive but what exactly happens to flares that happen to be over there due date? I have never cared to find out but in a pinch would they not work?
FISHNFF	posted 02-28-2014 02:10 AM ET (US) You can carry old flares as spares. When needed, try them first. I don't think it is illegal to carry them on board, but having old explosives make me a bit uneasy. How old is too old? FISHNFF
FISHNFF	posted 02-28-2014 02:10 AM ET (US) You can carry old flares as spares. When needed, try them first. I don't think it is illegal to carry them on board, but having old explosives make me a bit uneasy. How old is too old? FISHNFF
Marsh	posted 02-28-2014 03:52 AM ET (US) Is it legal to add old, expired flares to one's July 4th fireworks display?
contender	posted 02-28-2014 08:10 AM ET (US) I agree with fish, if the flares are keep dry and out of harms way you would think they would be good for at least 5 years and more, Hard to believe they go bad in two. Another expense for boating that is very questionable...Government kick back?
tedious	posted 02-28-2014 09:08 AM ET (US) Two points of reference: - My brother-in-law (who, typically, was driving the boat we share inappropriately fast in a no-wake zone) was boarded and given a ticket for having expired flares on board, despite the fact that this is not against requirements, and we did have the required number of properly dated flares. - I fired off 6 expired flares in my back yard (well away from the coast) last winter. Some were 3 years out of date, some only 1. 5 of 6 fired, meaning they actually went up in the air, but only 1 of those 5 ignited when it got up there. I therefore don't think there's much value in carrying expired flares. Tim
bdb	posted 02-28-2014 09:23 AM ET (US) A responsible ship's store, like ours, will discount old flares appropriately. One irritant is that you are required to carry 3 but they are deliberately packed 4 to a pkg. What kind of agency issued a ticket for having expired flares in addition to current ones? We have been repeatedly told by the Coast Guard and DNR to carry the old ones as back-ups and that's the message we send.
tedious	posted 02-28-2014 09:31 AM ET (US) I think it was USCG but I am not completely sure. I suspect they were determined to get him for something after he announced to the boarders that he was being unfairly targeted, because other boats were going just as fast. And the boarder (correctly) informed him that it isn't about speed, but rather amount of wake being generated. Tim
jimh	posted 02-28-2014 09:36 AM ET (US) I have moved some of my expired flares to the trunk of my car for use on the highway in case of some emergency there. I have also ignited an expired flare, for the purposes of learning how to ignite the flare and to see if it would work. I found the process of igniting the flare to be more difficult than I expected. The expired flare did ignite. Once the flare ignited I found it dangerous. If you ever dropped the flare into the boat cockpit, it could easily start something else burning. My local retailer also discounts the flares whose expiration date is approaching.
Diver Dan	posted 02-28-2014 10:12 AM ET (US) Don't know of any regulations that would make carrying expired flares onboard an offense. Would require a quote from the regus if push comes to shove. As previously stated that do not satisfy the fed requirement for current ones, however, in a pinch and 50 miles offshore and drifting, I would feel a lot more comfortable having 8 extra expired in addition to the 4 current ones. Our Power Squadron holds an annual flare practice with some illuminating (pun intended) results. The death knell for any flare is moisture. Once the stricker gets damp or wet it's junk, unless you start it with another flare, but kept bone dry, 9 out of 10 times they do light, although lighting them is not as easy if never done before. If you have a food saver vacumm sealer, found that is the best way to keep all of them, broken down into groups of four, dry to a greater extent than leaving them in the plactic sale pouch. Like others, I do keep at least 4 in the truck, realizing that the burn time is far less than road flares.
jimp	posted 02-28-2014 01:20 PM ET (US) As mentioned before in CW, the Power Squadron, USCG Auxilary, and others often have "demonstrations" of all types of flares and they often get the flares from donations. For their demonstrations they request a LOCAL Notice to Mariners from the CG district stating the time and place. In this manner, mariners and the CG are notified before hand. Life of flares? - In my CG days back in the '80s, we fired off Very pistols using flares from World War II (40 years old) and many worked... and some didn't. - Save your old flares and use them first, their reliability is excelent and you won't have to buy new ones right away.
JMARTIN	posted 02-28-2014 02:29 PM ET (US) The last time I was stopped and had a vessel inspection, the USCG did not want to see my flares because "we were in sight or 1/2 mile away or something like that, from land." I had never heard that one before, but I do keep expired and legal flares on board. John
Chuck Tribolet	posted 02-28-2014 04:53 PM ET (US) I keep both expired and legal flares on board, in different places, so unless the CG completely tosses the contents of the console, they won't see the expired ones. Chuck
jimp	posted 02-28-2014 05:13 PM ET (US) Tim (tedious) mentioned: quote: - My brother-in-law (who, typically, was driving the boat we share inappropriately fast in a no-wake zone) was boarded and given a ticket for having expired flares on board, despite the fact that this is not against requirements, and we did have the required number of properly dated flares. I really hope it wasn't the USCG that said you can't have expired flares on board. Not part of the Boarding Manual and not on the USCG Aux checklist. Having extra flares on board makes the CG's and other SAR agency's job much easier. What if the last flare seen "over there" was the 3rd or even 4th flare in the pack (mine came in a 3-pack)? Without additional, or expired flares on board there would be nothing left to guide the SAR assets. Keep your outdated flares.
contender	posted 03-01-2014 02:11 PM ET (US) tedious, How can your brother in law be ticketed for carrying expired flares? This makes no sense what so ever especially if he meet the requirements of the new flares. This would be like getting a ticket for carrying a banana on the boat...I would have to fight this one...
martyn1075	posted 03-01-2014 03:44 PM ET (US) Contender...don't let that banana go to waste! Eat it up for nutrition then go back and catch some fish.I
swist	posted 03-02-2014 06:01 PM ET (US) Question: Since dampness is what seems to do in flares, is there a risk that lighting an expired flare will cause it to break down and shoot out the side, or worse?
tedious	posted 03-03-2014 09:08 AM ET (US) Jimp, Contender: Of course it makes no sense to be ticketed for having expired flares on board. But that didn't prevent the ticket from being handed out - and a fight would involve taking a day off from work and going to court. My BIL elected not to do that, but just pay the fine. Me, I was just tickled about the whole thing, because the real reason they stopped him was he was throwing a big wake in a no wake zone - something he does frequently, and advocates that I do when I'm behind the wheel and he is a passenger. Tim