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Author Topic:   E-TEC Gen 2
jimh posted 06-14-2014 01:59 AM ET (US)   Profile for jimh   Send Email to jimh  
Here are some pictures of the new E-TEC Gen 2 engines. Evinrude's new E-TEC Gen 2 engines feature a 74-degree V-block.

Thanks to Don J for sending from Wisconsin:


New E-TEC Gen 2 moderate color scheme


New E-TEC Gen 2 bold color scheme


New E-TEC Gen 2 250-HP in wild color scheme


New E-TEC in wild color scheme

New E-TEC showing cowling top with oil filler port


New E-TEC steering/trim/tilt subassembly in transparent casting for demonstration view.

E-TEC G2 Steering mount trim tilt assembly
New E-TEC showing side panel of cowling removed; new injectors, under-cowling oil reservoir, new steering shown.


New E-TEC Gen 2 Electric Shift Gear Case in demo rig

jimh posted 06-14-2014 02:31 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
There is also a new line of ICON TOUCH color engine instrumentation displays, in three sizes, 3.5-inch, 4.3-inch, and 7-inch, with touch screen interfaces.


ICON TOUCH 7-inch display

There are new propellers to go with the new engines.


New RX-4 propeller, said to be custom designed to match the power curve of the new E-TEC Gen 2

GSH posted 06-14-2014 03:21 AM ET (US)     Profile for GSH  Send Email to GSH     
VERY impressive!! I like what I see, hope we'll have the smaller versions soon!
SJUAE posted 06-14-2014 04:06 AM ET (US)     Profile for SJUAE  Send Email to SJUAE     
Some whacky colours for sure, great I guess for some ski boats although matt black with carbon fiber inserts maybe nice or two tone white

Still lets see some specs and weight info to see the important improvements

GSH posted 06-14-2014 04:40 AM ET (US)     Profile for GSH  Send Email to GSH     
I think one really has to see the different color option outdoors on the water (i.e. on a relevant boat) to find out which one is the one to have.
I'm impressed with how well they have taken both the first gen E-TEC design elements and design elements from other BRP products to make something that really stands out in a not-just-for-show way!
Jefecinco posted 06-14-2014 08:40 AM ET (US)     Profile for Jefecinco  Send Email to Jefecinco     
My initial reaction was: SHOCKING! Those designs look good and the colors I expect will be very popular with the bass and ski boat owners. I'm a big fan of electric shift after experiencing it with my Verado. I think these engines will be a hit and that the other manufacturers will be jumping in with some wild graphics of their own.

I hope they will continue to offer the engines in white for us old guys. I doubt there will be another engine in my future but one never knows???

Butch

george nagy posted 06-14-2014 08:56 AM ET (US)     Profile for george nagy  Send Email to george nagy     
well, these may have changed the way I view the entire outboard industry after all. I think that these new designs and some of the newer designs from other motor brands are just too ugly for many more classically conservatively designed boats. These new evinrudes may have some nice engineering features but are just too ugly for me to want to put one a classic whaler. I could not imagine that new 250 replacing the one on continuous wave. I will say they fit in on the ski and bass boat designs which seem to be more inspired by nascar color schemes. Suzuki probably just hit my personal number one for both repower and new power options on a new offshore boat unless that is the gen one designs will still be available.
Hoosier posted 06-14-2014 09:26 AM ET (US)     Profile for Hoosier  Send Email to Hoosier     
OK, after reading the fine print of the patent:

Referring back to FIG. 1, two hydraulic hoses 100 are connected to the apertures 105 and 107 of the steering hydraulic rotary actuator 80 and two hydraulic hoses 100 are connected to the apertures 101 and 103 of the tilt/trim hydraulic rotary actuator 70. The hydraulic hoses 100 are connected to a flow control valve system 110 which is connected to a hydraulic pump 112 powered by an electric motor 114. A controller (not shown) may be connected to the electric motor 114 to efficiently monitor the amount of electrical current used by the electric motor 114. It is contemplated that the tilt/trim hydraulic rotary actuator 70 and the steering hydraulic rotary actuator 80 may alternatively be connected to separate hydraulic pumps 112 powered by separate electric motors 114.

So,this means that the trim/tilt/steering is fly-by-wire, which is what contemporary trim/tilt systems are. Now they've extended it to steering. This , coupled with NMEA 2000 will make adding autopilot a breeze. Getting rid of the hyrdaulic hoses from the helm to the engine/s is a good thing.

WhalerAce posted 06-14-2014 10:12 AM ET (US)     Profile for WhalerAce  Send Email to WhalerAce     
At first glance, it looks to me like a Verado. Maybe there is some fantastic engineering in there (I'm sure there is), but all I can see is that this is going to further the line between those that CAN afford to boat, and those who CAN'T. I may be approaching the side of the CAN'T. How much is all of that specialized electronics and hydraulics going to cost to repair? And now, can only the BRP-blessed mechanic do this work?

My 1967 Evinrude boats (with OMC power) had electric shift. There were two magnetic coils in the foot that squeezed a band that grabbed the prop shaft to make it turn. So it took almost fifty years to reinvent that? They were reliable back then.

I just can't see this on ANY classic Whaler.

All that being said, I love Evinrude products, and wish them the best.

--- WhalerAce

martyn1075 posted 06-14-2014 11:27 AM ET (US)     Profile for martyn1075  Send Email to martyn1075     
I guess we should never judged a book by its cover but the the design is quite extreme. From some angles they appear to have a boxy large and heavy robot feel. Engineering is probably amazing. Probably too disjointed appearance for many of the older classic style boats. On the flip side the goal usually is to move forward and perhaps the designers see this kind of movement with the design of boats in the next decade. In that case they may be ahead of their time and considered innovative.


Tom W Clark posted 06-14-2014 11:46 AM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Engine Type: V6 74 degree E-TEC Direct Injection
Bore x Stroke: 3.854 x 3.000 (98 x 76)
Displacement: 3.4 Liter
Gear ratio: 1.85:1
Full Throttle: 5400-6000 RPM
Weight: 558 lb.
Fuel Induction: E-TEC Direct Injection with stratified low RPM combustion mode
Alternator: 133 Amp total, 50 net dedicated, 14 Amp @ idle
Steering: Integrated hydraulic power steering
Trim Range: -6 to15 degrees
Tilt range: 81 degrees
Shaft Length: 20in, 25in, 30in (not H.O)
Lubrication: Multipoint targeting oiling
Oil Tank Capacity: Integral 2 Gallon (good for 200 hours), optional bigger free-standing tanks
Recommended Oil: Evinrude/Johnson XD-100
Recommended Fuel: 87 Octane
Warranty: 5-Year, non declining
Dealer Serving: After 500 hours or 5 years
Emissions Compliance: EPA2013, Carb 3 Star, European Union
Mounting Centres: Minimum 26 inch
george nagy posted 06-14-2014 11:49 AM ET (US)     Profile for george nagy  Send Email to george nagy     
one of the boats of interest for me for the future would be the albury brothers 23 which is a modern version of a classic wooden boat design. These new evinrude motors will be very out of place on a boat like that. Too bad they went so far off in the direct they did on appearance. If this is the direction outboards will be taking then the marketing people were correct in that it will change the way people view the industry in the event they may have put people off for good. I tend to think that designs like these do not attract the majority of long term repeat buyers and thus may have been a big mistake for them.
Jeff posted 06-14-2014 12:16 PM ET (US)     Profile for Jeff  Send Email to Jeff     
From the overall design as well as all the innovations, these motors are some fantastic pieces for industrial design.

LOVE the way they look.

jimh posted 06-14-2014 12:25 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
More views of the new E-TEC Gen 2, but in more subdued color schemes thanks to our on-the-ground reporter Dave:

The engines are said to be virtually silent when running. The new Gen 2 models range from 200 to 300-HP. Lower horsepower versions will be coming in the future.

The rigging is said to be unique, beautiful, and digital.

Tom W Clark posted 06-14-2014 12:34 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Though the photos don't seem to show it, the tilt range of 81 degrees is significantly greater than current models.

It is also nice to see any reference to the old-fashioned motor mounting clamps in the mounting bracket; this motor bolts on without any transom-top overhang of the mounting bracket.

The number of motor mounting bolt holes has been increased to five.

The rigging is much cleaner too. Note the rigging tube is attached to the mounting bracket not the powerhead. It does not move as the motor articulates.

There is also no primer bulb for the fuel line; the E-TEC G2 is self-priming (I presume with an electric fuel primer)

DVollrath posted 06-14-2014 12:39 PM ET (US)     Profile for DVollrath  Send Email to DVollrath     
It seems reasonable to expect that there will be some financial incentives offered on the Gen 1 motors that have Gen 2 replacements, in order to keep up sales and clear out stock. This might be a great opportunity for folks who don't view the changes as valuable to them.

That being said, too bad they're not bringing out a 150hp initially. Makes my repower decision more difficult.

Dennis

Tom W Clark posted 06-14-2014 12:45 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Regarding the new styling, which is very deliberately different, I think the appreciation of it is generational.

One article I read said the "look" was inspired by the Iron Man movie franchise. This may resonate more with younger folks.

On the other hand, when I look at the protuberances on the panel sides of the H.O. models, I think Hollywood too, but I see more of a Darth Vader with Princess Leia hair-buns look.

GSH posted 06-14-2014 12:45 PM ET (US)     Profile for GSH  Send Email to GSH     
Ref. to comments about the Gen 2 E-TEC not in tune with the classic Whaler: well, the many not look like the OMC outboards from the 80ies, but... take a look at pictures of the old Bearcats, Homelites and Mercury Town of Power outboards; they were no vanilla design either, or?
Tom W Clark posted 06-14-2014 01:23 PM ET (US)     Profile for Tom W Clark  Send Email to Tom W Clark     
Actually, there are angular design elements of the Homelite/Bearcat in the E-TEC G2
Teak Oil posted 06-14-2014 01:38 PM ET (US)     Profile for Teak Oil  Send Email to Teak Oil     
BRP Needs to get more motors on more transoms right out of the dealership and this design should help with that. The color options will save a lot of $$$$ on high end boats in the South that have customers paying thousands for custom outboard paint jobs to match the boat.

That being said I think for a Whaler my old Gen 1 E-tec is a better fit. The new engines are 30 pounds heavier than mine, though that is probably a wash since it will now include the oil tank in the weight (empty though).

The pistons and rods are the same as the old Gen 1, and it looks like there will be no more 3.3 liter engines produced, which is probably a good idea.

If the fuel economy claim is true, it puts the E-tec on par with four strokes at cruise, and they will still be ahead below 1000 rpms.

I looks forward to seeing how they stack up performance wise to the Gen 1 E-tec as well as other manufacturers.

I give BRP an "A" on their web site roll out

Dave Sutton posted 06-14-2014 01:40 PM ET (US)     Profile for Dave Sutton  Send Email to Dave Sutton     
Listening to them run this AM they are VERY quiet. I watched both the 250 and the 300 run. Had a few minutes with the guy running the boat with the 300 on it, who's an engineer for BRP, and talked for a few minutes about the engines. He showed off the steering and trim tilt system, which is very compact and cosmetically very clean. Obviously just a quick look can only show superficial things but they sure are good looking. To a direct question he told me that bringing this tech to smaller engines is anticipated. I also mentioned that it would give Mercury a few sleepless nights to which he said "Pfft... Mercury isn't even on our radar. We want to give Yamaha sleepless nights" which I found amusing. Evinrude doesn't even consider Mercury to be worthy competition to them.

Dave

.

martyn1075 posted 06-14-2014 04:22 PM ET (US)     Profile for martyn1075  Send Email to martyn1075     
Traditionally you flip two handles and the cowling lifts off in seconds giving full access to the motor head. How to you get into this gen 2 engine? It apears it has to be opened by screws and on two sides at that.

Whaler27 posted 06-14-2014 04:59 PM ET (US)     Profile for Whaler27  Send Email to Whaler27     
Interesting.

Ugly.

Heavy.

Ugly.

Looks like a nightmare to work on.

Ugly.

Yamaha isn't missing any sleep.

Jmho.

Peter posted 06-14-2014 05:41 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
Brochure can be seen at www.evinrude.com/Content/Pdf/en-US/2015_Evinrude_Catalog.pdf#zoom=100

According to Charles Plueddman's report in Sportfishingmag.com, the 300 HP model uses the R.A.V.E. system. My guess is that the 250 HO also does.

Ferdinando posted 06-14-2014 06:17 PM ET (US)     Profile for Ferdinando  Send Email to Ferdinando     
The engines would look much better with the lettering going straight vertical:
E
V
I
N
R
U
D
E

Instead of sideways, just my 2 cents......

boatdryver posted 06-15-2014 09:35 AM ET (US)     Profile for boatdryver  Send Email to boatdryver     
Martyn 1075 says: "How to you get into this gen 2 engine? It appears it has to be opened by screws and on two sides at that."

They don't want us owners messing around in there. Have faith. Nothing will ever go wrong.

I just bought a 2012 BMW: When I raise the hood I can't even see the engine. THERE IS NO DIPSTICK! They might as well have posted a "Keep Out" sign. No coolant temperature or oil pressure gage! Not to worry, the computer will tell me if something is about to go wrong. (I hope)

JimL

fno posted 06-15-2014 09:45 AM ET (US)     Profile for fno  Send Email to fno     
I recall the first sightings of Mercury's Verado described by Bigshot as looking like a "large black shrimp" on the back of a boat. I can only wonder how these interesting motors will be described. Perhaps "Iron Shrimp"
jimh posted 06-15-2014 09:54 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Not shown in the images above, the boat with the electric green E-TEC has matching hull graphics on the hull sides. I guess if you want a boat with an electric green or chartreuse hull color, you can get the engine to match.

I haven't heard much about the price of the E-TEC Gen 2, but it seem certain to be higher than the present E-TEC.

The engine has a 5+5+5 Warranty: that is five year warranty on the engine, five year corrosion warranty, and five-hundred hours with no required maintenance other than annual checks.

The styling will take some time to seem more conventional. I remember when the futuristic movie THE MATRIX came out. There were automobiles with very angular lines, which I think were actually the new GM Cadillac coupes first introduced at that same time. At first they seemed radical. Now you see that angular, flat panel look on many automobiles.

Re the comment about Mercury not being a target: this is obvious. Evinrude cannot hope to knock Mercury engines off the transom of all those Brunswick boat companies. The transoms of Brunswick boats are a closed marketplace. No competition there. It is only on the transom of boats from independent boat builders where Evinrude can compete, and on those transoms you find mostly Yamaha engines now. So it is inherent that Evinrude is aiming at Yamaha.

jimh posted 06-15-2014 10:10 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Read all about the Evinrude E-TEC Gen 2:

http://www.evinrude.com/Content/Pdf/en-US/2015_Evinrude_Catalog.pdf

Jeff posted 06-15-2014 10:38 AM ET (US)     Profile for Jeff  Send Email to Jeff     
Interesting about the I-Trim feature which automatically adjusts the engines trim angle for optimum running efficiency. That is a feature that will dramatically increase an novices operation of their boat. Heck I see a lot of long time boaters operating the boats at poor trim angles too
jimh posted 06-15-2014 11:28 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
The new engine combustion process is called PurePower Combustion. The emission levels are much improved.

The new engine block is called a Starboard-Starboard design. I believe this refers to the engine block not being a mirrored image in the two banks of the V-block. This may be a result of the careful computer analysis and modeling of the combustion chamber air flow. All the cylinders are alike, rather than the Port bank being a mirror-image of the Starboard bank.

Some have noted that the bore and stroke of the E-TEC Gen 2 is the same as the corresponding E-TEC, and inferred that the same pistons and connecting rods are used. [But I doubt that. The computer modeling probably included modeling the top of the piston to help the flow. Perhaps the connecting rods are similar.--jimh]

The new gear case is called the SLX gear case.

The EMM is redesigned and has faster processors.

The power steering is described as Dynamic Power Steering, and the amount of power boost is apparently selectable (using the new ICON TOUCH instrumentation) so the feedback to the helm wheel can be adjusted to suit preferences and conditions.

Peter posted 06-15-2014 12:08 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
The starboard-starboard design is shown in the patent application previously mentioned.
martyn1075 posted 06-15-2014 12:29 PM ET (US)     Profile for martyn1075  Send Email to martyn1075     
We better hope you don't need to gain access while in the water for any reason because leaning over the back of a boat with a screwdriver is little ridiculous to ask for anybody with any level of experience. Dropping a screwdriver or let alone the screws in the water then what are you going to do with color panel. Lets hope we don't lose that a well. The lowest part of the panel appears to be only a inch or two off the water so the chances of water intruding into the engine would be high while out in the water with that design.

On a trailer I wouldn't mind so much although a bit of a hasle it wouldn't take too long to take off and if you drop a screw oh well I can lean over and graze through the grass for tiny little screw. Why not a couple of quick latches. Screws? seems to be a bit of a design flaw or a lack of insight. Some people enjoy looking in there engines even if there is nothing wrong with them. I don't get that feature at all for the user and self diagnosis or from a mechanic view point as well.

AllanR posted 06-15-2014 12:43 PM ET (US)     Profile for AllanR  Send Email to AllanR     
Wow. What a lot of change in one shot.

It takes us from mid 20th century thinking to early 21st century and beyond, in my view. I hope it will be successful for them.

I appreciate what technology and new thinking can do, but:

I have one engine on my Montauk, a 90HP Johnson 2 stroke. Yes, it is twenty years old. It is not fancy. It burns more fuel than the new engines. It needs oil in the oil tank every now and then. It is noisier, but no noisier than when it was new.

But it has never left me anywhere. It has plenty of power for my needs. It is mechanically simple.

The graphics and styling on the new engines are disturbing to me, both colors and the lettering. Ugly is the right word. The lack of access to the engine is troubling. The additional weight is not good.

I guess I am just an old timer, with no vision. But I have experience, and I want to know I can depend my engine while I am on the ocean with my family. Everything else is secondary.

With so much change, I certainly wouldn't want to be a buyer of the initial production run. But it is unlikely that I would ever buy one of these anyway.

What is the saying these days? Has Evinrude "Jumped the Shark"? Could be.

Marko888 posted 06-15-2014 02:18 PM ET (US)     Profile for Marko888    
I'm impressed by the new design and applaud BRP on making a bold move with a mostly clean sheet design, something we'd never see from a Japanese manufacturer.

I like the effort to completely tidy up the installation rigging for compared to previous designs. Integration of the oil tank on the big engines is another smart move for a 2-stroke manufacturer.

If it's truly quieter as well, they've managed to minimize the few disadvantages the E-TEC has compared to 4-strokes, and increased the advantages.

djahncke posted 06-15-2014 03:48 PM ET (US)     Profile for djahncke  Send Email to djahncke     
Just spent the morning riding on various boats with these new engines. Yes, they are definitely quieter. Both at idle and at cruise. The torque is impressive. Not only does it deliver a great hole shot. When cruising at 3000 RPM and you goose the throttle you get a surprising amount of acceleration.

About the cost. The charts that I saw showed when you look at the complete package (that is motor, rigging and steering) the cost is within a couple hundred dollars of the same size E-TEC Gen1. I think that is very reasonable considering all the performance enhancements you get.

Teak Oil posted 06-15-2014 05:13 PM ET (US)     Profile for Teak Oil  Send Email to Teak Oil     
So Don, have you installed your Gen 1 outboards yet? Would you say the new motors are significantly quieter than the older style E-tec?
djahncke posted 06-15-2014 05:55 PM ET (US)     Profile for djahncke  Send Email to djahncke     
Teakoil,

Yes, the install was completed two weeks ago. And yes these Gen2s are quieter, especially at cruising speeds.

Hoosier posted 06-15-2014 06:07 PM ET (US)     Profile for Hoosier  Send Email to Hoosier     
Since the electric steering is standard, what upgrades are there, autopilot?
djahncke posted 06-15-2014 11:30 PM ET (US)     Profile for djahncke  Send Email to djahncke     
Dave,

There is the Optimus 360 joystick steering. They are calling the Evinrude version iDock. Then as you guessed the autopilot function can be had by interfacing a compatible GPS to the CANBUS network and possible adding a fluxgate compass. When I was at Miami Boat show the Optimus 360 engineer said that the Simrad GPS is already all set to do this. I expect other manufacturers to do likewise in the future.

Through the Evinrude controls you can set the level of steering effort you prefer.

PeteB88 posted 06-16-2014 01:43 AM ET (US)     Profile for PeteB88  Send Email to PeteB88     
Crazy baby! Real cool daddy - oh!
djahncke posted 06-16-2014 08:22 AM ET (US)     Profile for djahncke  Send Email to djahncke     
Another point that I have not seen mentioned here is the colors of the gen 1 E-TECs. They will be extending the graphite color to the rest of the E-TEC line and dropping the blue. So in the future for E-TEC gen 1 you will have a choice of white or graphite.
jimh posted 06-16-2014 09:30 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
AllanR writes:

quote:
Wow. What a lot of change in one shot.

Yes. I agree. I was expecting a bit of tweaking of the present E-TEC power head that would result in a new main block casting with changed porting. Based on the surreptitious photographs, I knew the cowling would be radically different.

I was surprised by the new engine mount, trim, tilt, and steering system. And the new ICON instrumentation. And the electrically shifting gear case.

In total, there is a very big leap between E-TEC and E-TEC Gen 2. When this happens, people sometimes think that the older generation is rendered useless and obsolete. Not in the case. The E-TEC is still being made, and all the E-TEC engines out there will continue to run, just as they used to. I just got mine in the water for the first time this season, and it is running just fine, just like is always has. It is completely unaware that it has a new engine mate in the Evinrude line.

jimh posted 06-16-2014 09:43 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
More information at

http://www.chooseyouretec.com/en-us/

boatdryver posted 06-16-2014 10:42 AM ET (US)     Profile for boatdryver  Send Email to boatdryver     
The new electric trim/steering module looks very expensive. I'm wondering if they will need to include it on the 3 and 4 cylinder versions of Gen 2.

JimL

djahncke posted 06-16-2014 11:15 AM ET (US)     Profile for djahncke  Send Email to djahncke     
They will need to include the electric trim and steering module if they want to maintain the clean rigging feature of the Gen2.
Peter posted 06-16-2014 01:14 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
I think the G2 will be their premium product like the Verado is for Mercury. I'd be surprised if all of the G2 features, in particular the steering system, trickled down to the 4 and 3 cylinder models.
Spuds posted 06-16-2014 02:19 PM ET (US)     Profile for Spuds    
I have mixed emotions after watching the hour long video of the reveal to BRP dealers. The BRP management talk about how after several years of stagnent market share in four wheelers, snowmobiles, and jet skis, they were able to make big advances into the market with radical modern redesigns. But my question is, will the same radical redesign work in the outboard market? The other items are total packages. An outboard is simply part of a boat package. Although I have Suzukis on both my Whalers, I am very open the the super clean running E-TECs. I think I'd be more open to the look of a 150hp G2 Evinrude on the back of my 1985 Outrage 18 than on my Nauset. Unless of course, I'd paint the mahogany lime green on the Nauset, and get a matching lime green motor. ; )
Peter posted 06-16-2014 02:39 PM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
The matching possibilities are endless. You should be able to get a matching faux mahogany panel for a G2 to match the Nauset.
Teak Oil posted 06-16-2014 05:43 PM ET (US)     Profile for Teak Oil  Send Email to Teak Oil     
Will the new props fit the older motors?
martyn1075 posted 06-16-2014 06:15 PM ET (US)     Profile for martyn1075  Send Email to martyn1075     
Maybe they could package up color panels like they do for phone covers. Get a pack for every season. It almost has that kind of feel. The color has quite a effect on the appearance. The dark grey is appealing and changes the stature favorably imo but the Pepsi color them shown in the brochure gives a strange vibe. It looks like a couple of massive pepsi can blocks on the back of a boat expensive ones at that.

Something tells me they won't be sold at a disposable price. The screws however will be when you lose them overboard. Guys, use latches not screws. It could have easily been engineered thats the thing. Two or three hidden recessed little latches to gain instant safe secure access to your motors internals.

Don SSDD posted 06-16-2014 09:15 PM ET (US)     Profile for Don SSDD    
They did all those different HP ratings with 1 block, 200-300HP, they could add a lot more smaller units with 1 more block. They could do 70/90low end to say 175.
Assuming the technology downsizes easily, it may not be that expensive.
I wonder where the volume and potential profit is? In repowers, I would think the volume would be under 200HP?

5 years and 500 hours warranty, and winterizing at the push of a button, they don't think you will need to remove those covers very often, so screws are fine. The outside is different so you immediately know it is a Gen 2, a totally new outboard.

Seems everyone who owns Etec Gen 1's loves them, if these are as good as those, they should be a winner.

Don

djahncke posted 06-16-2014 09:18 PM ET (US)     Profile for djahncke  Send Email to djahncke     
Teak,

Yes the new props should fit the old motors. After talking with a BRP manager about the props he is sending me a pair of the new RX4 props to try on my gen 1 motors. When I get them I will let you know how they perform.

-Don

Dave Sutton posted 06-16-2014 11:06 PM ET (US)     Profile for Dave Sutton  Send Email to Dave Sutton     
"Why not a couple of quick latches. Screws? seems to be a bit of a design flaw or a lack of insight."

What do you think you would be qualified to be fooling with under the cowl? Think you're going to improve the idle by playing with a screw? Or maybe wrapping a starting rope around the flywheel? News: Those days are over. Gone with timing lights and dwell meters and tuning your Chevy with a set of points, condenser, and spark plugs in the driveway.

Think of it like I think of a jet engine at work: You start it, you shut it down, and when it needs an inspection at 500 hours run time you plug it into the diagnostic system, download it's file, and of nothing is out of spec you change the igniters and put it back oput for another 500 hours. Fuel and oil are all you need to worry about. This isn't a 1960's era two stroke that you are going to be fooling with using a screwdriver. I'm surprised that they didn't seal it completely.


Dave

.

martyn1075 posted 06-17-2014 01:02 AM ET (US)     Profile for martyn1075  Send Email to martyn1075     
Thanks for the news I was unaware that things have changed so drastically. No need for that really. These engines I guess don't break down so we can assume no need in checking things out but if they do and your qualifyed mechanic wants to check things over in the water plug in a device we need to be extra careful around there but with quick latches it would make things a heck of a lot easier. There still are many larger moored boats out there that can't just throw on a trailer and pull out for a check up. It really is more for easy access then diving around with a screw driver and start roap.
GSH posted 06-17-2014 02:52 AM ET (US)     Profile for GSH  Send Email to GSH     
Side pannels and screws: not 100% sure here, but I do think those are quarter-turn screws that do not fall out of the side panels just because they are "opened". Anyhow, the aim must be that boat operators do not need to open those at any time when the boat is on the water.
GSH posted 06-17-2014 02:57 AM ET (US)     Profile for GSH  Send Email to GSH     
- Did anyone hear or read any comment on the planned schedule for more, smaller G2 E-TEC outboards pushed to market?

Br, Seb

Dave Sutton posted 06-17-2014 07:58 AM ET (US)     Profile for Dave Sutton  Send Email to Dave Sutton     
When I asked this specifically from one of the on-water demo reps, his anser was that we should expect trickle-down "sometime" but it did not sound like it was going to be anytime in the immediate future. It's apparent that this next generation will be developed platform by platform, with the one shown taking their effort at the moment. The smaller engines that are more suitable for most of our own repower needs will be the same for some time.

The cowling access hatch fasteners are, indeed, captured. They don't fall off when removed. Standard for any aerospace type application.

Some are interested in the color choices. There are so many that you can have what you like. Personally, I like classic colors and the black and greys looked great on the boats that mounted them. But there was also a center console boat done in white with brown mahogany colored seats and trim, and an engine to match, and it looked great. There were hulls from Zodiac, Quintrex, and a few other "heavy duty" manufacturers as well as pontoon boats, ski boats, and bass boats. The Zodiac was a police/military fitted one and the solid black engines fit it perfectly and looked great. Naturally the bass boats were in more gaudy schemes and the same engines with different cowling colors looked great on them as well.

CANBUS, which is the digital control system chosen, is a Robert Bosch developed digital data buss that is universal in automobile controls now. It tolerates noisey electrical environments well and is very very robust. Your E-Gas digital throttle-by-wire on things like Porsche's is all done thru CAN. Your ABS braking system is CAN. The stereo in your car talking to the GPS and to the radio controls on your steering wheel is all CAN. And we are using CAN to distribute data and control thruout the electronic diving rebreathers that my peers and myself are using to dive to depths of 400 feet plus in the Great lakes while shipwreck hunting. It's a very mature system and one that ought to be extremely reliable in service. It's funny that when I was looking at the new engines on Friday that I had a CANBUS controlled scuba diving rebreather life support system lashed to the rail of our boat tied at the same dock, and naturally the truck pulling the trailer for our boat is fully run by the same exact system.

I see squawks from those running old 2 stroke 90's on their wood console Nasuets. To those I have news: The world of technology isn't going to stand still so you can repower your boat with 1970's technology. For every "classic repower" there are *thousands* of other engines sold. In any event the beautiful eTec 90 that's the primier choice for 17 foot Whaler repowers is going to be around for a long while yet.

I found it amusing that Evinrude finds the Mercury/Brunswick combo to be beneith their dignity to compete with. With this new tech, buyers are going to begin to insist on access to it, and those hulls with no choice in power are going to be at a severe disadvantge in sales until either choices are offered or other makers step up to the plate with similar technologies. The immediate contest will be between Yamaha and Evinrude on non-Brunswick hulls and there will no doubt be a swing towards the Evinrudes in this category of new hull sales. There's equally little doubt that Brunswick hull sales will decline as buyers select other hulls in order to obtain this new engine technology. It's sad to observe that BW is chained to the old horse. I see a bright future for Edgewater, myself. Oh well, BW hasn't been the same since it moved from New England and became a corporate way to sell more Brunswich package boats. Boston Whaler and Bayliner: Perfect Together.


Dave

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djahncke posted 06-17-2014 09:54 AM ET (US)     Profile for djahncke  Send Email to djahncke     
To demonstrate the ease of opening the panels BRP held a contest at the dealer meeting to see who could replace a panel the fastest. The winning time was a little over 24 seconds. More typical times were in the 40 second range.
jimh posted 06-17-2014 09:57 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Dave writes:

quote:
Those days are over. Gone with timing lights and dwell meters and tuning your Chevy with a set of points, condenser, and spark plugs in the driveway.

You have reminded me of the days of owning a brand new 1973 FORD with a little four-cylinder engine. I think the engine was actually a Ford-European engine, as in the 1970's the big-three could not make a decent small engine. I had a very good HEATHKIT Tachometer and Dwell meter, and a really good HEATHKIT timing light. I could put in a new set of points in the distributor, set the dwell, and adjust the timing in about 15 minutes. The reason I was so good at this is because I had a lot of practice. The little ignition system seemed to eat up points, and they needed re-setting of the gap or replacement about every three months. I also had a special distributor wrench so I could rock the distributor around to set the timing, which I set by experimenting. The suggested timing for emission compliance gave terrible response from the engine. I think it was much too retarded.

I never advanced to fiddling with the carburetors, but I did remove all of the bolted-on emission hoses, along with the automatic choke. I put in a manual choke with a pull knob in the dashboard.

That was 41-years ago. I really don't miss those days. Now all the engines I own are controlled in a very sophisticated manner by microprocessors, and none have carburetors. Also, HEATHKIT is long-gone, and probably not even familiar to many readers. I built my first HEATHKIT when I was about eight or nine years old. They were a great way to acquire hands-on experience with electronics.

lizard posted 06-17-2014 10:12 AM ET (US)     Profile for lizard  Send Email to lizard     
That may just be the ugliest motor I have ever seen. I wouldn't hang that on a Whaler, for FREE.
djahncke posted 06-17-2014 10:55 AM ET (US)     Profile for djahncke  Send Email to djahncke     
GSH,

When I asked one of the BRP engineers about the timing for Gen 2 in the smaller engines. His response was he expected they would start that project within the next year. That still leaves the question on how long that project will run before they start offering those engines.

wally910 posted 06-17-2014 11:02 AM ET (US)     Profile for wally910  Send Email to wally910     
I love the clean look of the tilt/trim/steering assembly. Would love for them to incorporate that into the Gen 1 and leave the rest alone.

This engine resembles the 557 engine offered by 7 marine.

Chuck Tribolet posted 06-17-2014 11:12 AM ET (US)     Profile for Chuck Tribolet  Send Email to Chuck Tribolet     
The turned sideways lettering is UGLY. Maybe they were
planning on having it readable when the engine was tilted at
the dock or on the trailer. ;-)

BTW, NMEA2000 is CANBUS.

Chuck

boatdryver posted 06-17-2014 11:19 AM ET (US)     Profile for boatdryver  Send Email to boatdryver     
lizard says:

"That may just be the ugliest motor I have ever seen. I wouldn't hang that on a Whaler, for FREE."

But remember, bass boats are pretty ugly too.

JimL

jimh posted 06-17-2014 11:22 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
It is interesting that the main rigging tube goes to the engine mount and does not pivot with the engine, but, of course, the fuel line to the engine, the battery cables to the engine, and the control and instrumentation cables to the engine must pivot with the engine. I am looking forward to seeing how that is done, but it will probably take an up-close-and-personal look to really see it.
djahncke posted 06-17-2014 01:05 PM ET (US)     Profile for djahncke  Send Email to djahncke     
Jim,

The pivot is done inside the cowling. BRP engineers specifically pointed out that the rigging tube does not move with the engine when it turns. Their perspective is they rather have the pivot points inside where they (BRP) can control the engineering than outside where it is left to the skill of the person doing the rigging.

GSH posted 06-17-2014 03:17 PM ET (US)     Profile for GSH  Send Email to GSH     
Many thanks for the replies to my question regarding the next release of G2 E-TEC:s!

Ref.: The “EVINRUDE” brand text being vertical, a design feature a lot of people seem to dislike.

There was one explanation for that which given in the Club Evinrude presentation video, but I believe there is a second, more practical one:

Look at the port side panel, as one can clearly see from many photos, it has a distinct bulge almost in the middle, which is not symmetrically present on the starboard side panel.
I do not think that I have seen any pictures of the new outboards with the port side panel removed, but I am quite certain that there is a practical, technical reason for that bulge.

Now try to imagine what the “EVINRUDE” text logo would look like if it was placed horizontally a 2/3 or 3/4 up on the side panels: the starboard side would (at least according to my imagination) look fine, but the port side - with the mentioned bulge - would not.

Br, Seb

GSH posted 06-17-2014 03:36 PM ET (US)     Profile for GSH  Send Email to GSH     
Slight sidebar:

If thinking about what should come next to market of the G2:s, my hope would be for new 3-cylinder outboards in the 65 HP to 100 HP range.
Why? Because I think a new 3-cylinder made as half of this new big V6 would/could/should be just the improvement needed on the current E-TEC:s in that horsepower range.

Also, I actually feel that the current smaller V6 models are doing fairly well in the market as is, and could perhaps better stand to be on offer for a bit longer.

In addition, I very much hope that at least some degree of “clean rigging” concept makes it down below the V6 models.

Last but not least, an in-line 4-cylinder model would be great! (But perhaps that is too much “Black School” to be accepted?)
Why? Well, it should be lighter than a V4, and it kind of opens up the bridge to a future V8 model… and even though I’m not from the U.S., I still love V8:s.

On the more sad side, I think it is likely that it will take a very long time before we get to see the 25 HP to 30 HP G2 replacements, and it seems for sure that E-TEC will not go below that (25 HP) even in the future (no, I'm not noting the silly 15 HP H.O. model, which we do not even get in our market).

Unless, that is, new emission requirements means more expensive tech for the 4-stroke outboards in the portable range is needed? (Hope lives on!)

GSH posted 06-17-2014 04:06 PM ET (US)     Profile for GSH  Send Email to GSH     
One additional comment on the look - or more correctly the design - of the new G2 E-TEC outboards:

Please take a moment to think about the design of BMW cars over the past 15 to 20 years. The work of BMW chief designer Chris Bangle (please google for more information) on BMW cars born under his watch - like the E60 generation 5-series that came out in 2003, and other models - set off a wave of new design in the automotive world, the effect of which can still be observed today.

Here, BRP Evinrude is doing something equally important, stepping up and beyond the level on fresh design that was part of the launch of Mercury Verado outboards as well as the G1 E-TEC:s.

And again, I still don’t think the G2 Evinrudes are any more “strange” than the older designs like the Bearcats, Homelites, Merc Towers and some Chrysler outboards, some of which I find nice, others not so much.

The design of the current Yamaha, FourStroke Mercury, Honda and Suzuki outboards on the other hand, are to me indeed too much the same.
When they will be replaced with new models, hopefully models showing new innovative and different exteriors (some of which may even at start get a much wider acceptance than the new E-TEC G2 design), then we will in part have the “chock” given to us now by BRP Evinrude to thank.

The bar for noticeable steps forward in outboard exterior design has indeed been pushed up quite a bit, which is all good to me.

Br, Seb

martyn1075 posted 06-17-2014 04:12 PM ET (US)     Profile for martyn1075  Send Email to martyn1075     
That's why I was commenting on the screws because it just seemed like a disaster design. If they half turn and stay in without falling out that makes a lot more sense. However it still would not be nearly as quick as a standard design engine cover with latches. I see in the photo the panel completely removed. It would nice to see how it functions in a video someday. With the engine only just introduced a few days ago I think we can give it some grace period.
SJUAE posted 06-17-2014 06:05 PM ET (US)     Profile for SJUAE  Send Email to SJUAE     
Jim

You brought fond memories back tinkering with my 1970's Ford 1300cc engines on a Saturday morning, it was always points, plugs, fan belt and rear drums

I can't see what the fuss is over the side access panels I can count on one hand the number of times I have taken my cowling off. I did on one occasion, on an old engine, take it off at sea due to a stuck solenoid on the tilt system, never again and side access on that occasion would of been easier.

As for martyn1075 other scenario I have run the boat with the cowling off and the dealer laptop diagnostics cable attached trying to solve a high engine temp fault. Like most of us this would be under controlled conditions ie at the dock side then a quick run out and back and not in mid ocean trying to hook up a cable or poke something

I guess it you have triple 300's the mid engine could be harder to get to but you could say the same for the back two catches on a conventional cowling.


Jefecinco posted 06-17-2014 07:28 PM ET (US)     Profile for Jefecinco  Send Email to Jefecinco     
I don't want to have to remove a large one piece engine cowling while the boat is in the water. I had to remove the cowling on a 115 HP V4 Evinrude cowling while the boat was hanging over the water from it's lift which was raised by cables. It was not a fun job as the boat would sway back and forth while I was working. I finally had to tilt the engine fully up and sit in the engine well with my legs wrapped around the cowling. Getting the cowling off was easy compared to getting it back on. The whole process was complicated by my fear that if I dropped the cowling it might not be easy to recover with a boat hook.

How much easier it would have been if the cowling was made up of a couple of removable panels providing access to the spark plugs.

Removing the fairly large Verado cowling from the engine on my 190 Montauk is difficult even when the boat is on the trailer. I would have to be quite desperate to attempt to remove it while on the water. Frankly I'd rather pay for a tow.

Butch

Dave Sutton posted 06-17-2014 07:36 PM ET (US)     Profile for Dave Sutton  Send Email to Dave Sutton     
Spent another hour with one of the demo guys today, who is an engineer on the project.

Short takaway answers:

1: The cowling pieces are held on with 1/4 turn aerospace fasteners that are not screws.

2: The cowling pieces float if they are inadvertantly dropped overboard.

3: The project started in theoretical development about 10 years ago with first mechanical work done about 5 years ago, so it's been a project for a long time.

4: No full featured trickle-down to the 90 HP class "montauk Repower" engines expected "For Years", and the classic etecs will still be made for a very long while.

I took many more pics and will send to Jim so he can post if desired. Supposed to get a ride tomorrow.


Dave

.

Chuck Tribolet posted 06-17-2014 07:53 PM ET (US)     Profile for Chuck Tribolet  Send Email to Chuck Tribolet     
Jeffinco: I've pulled the cowling on my 90HP V4 Evinrude on
my Montauk while on the water a few times. I believe this is
the same as the 115HP. No sweat. Engine down, lie on top of
the cowl, loosen rear latch, get me off cowl, loosen front
latch, remove cowl.

Dave Sutton: What tool is required on those Dzus (or similar)
fasteners.

Chuck

Dave Sutton posted 06-18-2014 08:48 AM ET (US)     Profile for Dave Sutton  Send Email to Dave Sutton     
Chuck, a "real" Dzeus fastener, made by the Dzeus comnpany, uses a special screwdriver with a tip ground with a large diameter radius to fit the slot. An ordinary screwdriver can be used however. The fasteners on the Evinrude are similar but accept a standard screwdriver as the correct tool.

I emailed to Jim photos of several boats with the engines installed, including military/police Zodiac, a very nice aluminum diving boat with full "Canadian style" cabin, a Topaz with triple 300's, and a few others. Interesting on the triple powered Topaz: The engine controls have only two throttles. This shows an integration of control that's interesting. The dive boat has a second steering and power control station outside on the dive deck, this being able to be dne by connection of a total of three wire pairs between the station and the engines. Speaking to the tech rep, the diameter of rigging tunnel needed to connect a full steering and control station to the engine is less than 3/4 of an inch *with connectors on the cables* and less than a half inch without the connectors on the cables. Think about that for a moment


Dave

.

Jefecinco posted 06-18-2014 08:52 AM ET (US)     Profile for Jefecinco  Send Email to Jefecinco     
Chuck,

I was working on a Dauntless 16 which I'd sold a couple of years earlier. The transom design is quite different from that of the Montauks, sort of a Euro design. That may account for some of the difficulty I encountered.

The boat was hanging about eight feet above the water and it was windy and the boat was swaying around a bit more than I liked so that was a factor and I did worry that we could lose the cowling. I certainly was not going into that cold water to rescue a cowling.

If the boat had been mine and it was on the water my experience may have been a little less harrowing.

Still, I would never attempt the job with my Verado unless the water was shallow enough for me to stand outside the boat.

Looking at the pictures I believe the spark plugs and fuel filter are accessible once the side panels have been removed. It's difficult for me to imagine having to change the spark plugs while on the water but the fuel filter could require attention t anytime.

Equipment I worked on in the Army often used Dzus fasteners. They could be removed with a flat tip screwdriver, coin, door key or even the trusty P-38 ration can opener on every soldiers key chain. Push the head in turn 1/2 turn counterclockwise to open and reverse to close.

Butch

jimh posted 06-22-2014 05:12 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
Lizard writes:

quote:
That may just be the ugliest motor I have ever seen. I wouldn't hang that on a Whaler, for FREE.

I don't think BRP is going to give you one, after you've said that.

seahorse posted 06-23-2014 08:06 AM ET (US)     Profile for seahorse    

QUOTE:
Looking at the pictures I believe the spark plugs and fuel filter are accessible once the side panels have been removed.


One feature not mentioned before is that Champion has finally perfected the orienting of the threads on sparkplug. These new plugs are different than the traditional DFI styles from the past. These have a letter " i " at the end to designate that they are already indexed.

For installation you just thread one in until the gasket touches the head and give about 1/2 turn additional with a socket. The plug is now properly torqued and indexed correctly. To reinstall a used plug, there is a torque setting that will be published or possibly something like 1/6 turn after seating.

Though it should not need plugs very often, this does simplify maintenance on the motor.

Chuck Tribolet posted 06-23-2014 10:27 AM ET (US)     Profile for Chuck Tribolet  Send Email to Chuck Tribolet     
MMM, Seahorse: does that mean that the tapping of the spark
plug threads in the head has been consistent all along?

Chuck

seahorse posted 06-23-2014 10:59 AM ET (US)     Profile for seahorse    
For the most part each cylinder head has the spark plug threads "timed". That is how if one plug does not index on one cylinder, it will on any cylinder of the opposite bank of a V block engine. If a plug was severely overtorqued and the aluminum theads were stretched, then that may not be the case.

jimh posted 06-23-2014 11:57 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
I just saw a short video with Chief Engineer George Broughton (G2 Overview). About three-minutes thirty-seconds into the presentation, he demonstrates how the owner can assess the level of the lubrication in the gear case by accessing a small indicator bottle located under a side panel. That sounds like a very new feature, and I don't believe it has been mentioned.

I believe that so far a great deal of attention has been given to the new styling of the engine, and perhaps not enough attention to all the engineering improvements incorporated into the engine, the mount, the rigging, the gear case, and the accessories like gauges and propellers. I expect that more of the details will be coming to light over the next few weeks.

seahorse posted 06-23-2014 01:02 PM ET (US)     Profile for seahorse    
Because they were able to design a motor from a clean sheet of paper, the experienced engineers could incorporate a number of fixes and improvements in this new G-2 motor.

Things like having a salt-water resistant fuel system, trim assist function, oil level and sight glass for the gear oil, indexed spark plugs, extra anodes, adjustable exhaust bleeds in the prop, inside the boat flushing hose under top cover, super quick and easy rigging, non-moving rigging hose when the engine turns and tilts, interchangeable colored engine panels and accents, 500 hr service interval or 5 years, 5 yr. corrosion warranty, titanium dioxide undercoating, low water pickups on nose cone gearcase, enclosed power steering and trim system, etc.

jimh posted 06-24-2014 08:45 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
The new E-TEC GEN 2 has already won over SCOUT Boats, and they will be putting the new engine on their transoms, a location that was formerly Yamaha territory. I think a real coup for Evinrude will be to swing Grady White to the E-TEC GEN 2.
sosmerc posted 06-25-2014 12:54 AM ET (US)     Profile for sosmerc  Send Email to sosmerc     
I'm anxious to get a close look at the new Evinrudes...it looks like they have some interesting new ideas. Anything that
improves the rigging process and deals effectively with the age old problem of bending and twisting engine harnesses and cables will be a big plus. How this all works out remains to be seen. I like the idea of an electric shift lower unit. I had a 1968 55hp Evinrude with electric shift and it worked very well. Yes, there were some issues down the road with this system, but nothing that newer technology and sharp minds couldn't fix and improve. While I don't care for the styling, with time that could change. Nice to see BRP hanging in there and setting a new bar for others to challenge.
But I must admit, what I am really waiting for is someone to introduce a powerful, dependable electric propulsion system that will appeal to the masses. I believe it will happen.
If Harley Davidson can plan for the future, so can others.
it's just a matter of time.


jimh posted 06-25-2014 02:06 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
In addition to the development and production of the new engine, new instrumentation, new propellers, new mounting and rigging systems, and other hardware associated with the E-TEC GEN 2 roll out, BRP/Evinrude have also created a great deal of new literature, both printed and online, and both promotional and service. The new E-TEC GEN 2 engines are supported with beautifully printed catalogs--be sure to get one from your dealer as they are extremely well done and will be collector's items. The dealers also have innovative sales material that allow visualization of a huge number of color combinations of side panels and accent colors to aid customers in choosing a color scheme. (And remember, if you get tired of a color scheme you could always buy or swap the panels for new colors.)

To support dealer sales, installation, and service, there is an entirely new and wide scope series of excellently photographed and narrated video presentations. Each one of these presentations must have taken weeks to record, edit, and produce, so the amount of work accomplished is very impressive.

I believe the timing of the introduction is also well done. By showing the new product to dealers now, the factory can begin to take orders. All modern manufacturing these days is done to order, with as little speculative manufacturing as possible to reduce inventory. By the fall, after the new engines have had more exposure, the factory should have orders for specific models and colors to begin full production.

george nagy posted 06-29-2014 11:04 PM ET (US)     Profile for george nagy  Send Email to george nagy     
These new gen 2 etec engines most likely will not effect the decision of anyone buying a new boston whaler regardless of weather they apparently either add or subtract value of the existing mercury engine offerings available on boston whaler boats.

for example: "I really like those new gen2 etec motors but this new boston whaler outrage that cost over $400,000 only comes with mercury verado motors, oh well I can't buy this new whaler after all I'll just have to hold on to this half a million for a few years until this new outrage is available used and in need of a repower." I don't think that many persons buying these super expensive new boats really take the time to research what is available to them on the market, from what I have seen first hand they go to the boat show or the nearest dealer and either get what is on hand or order from a quick spec package that comes to the dealer rigged and ready from the factory. I'm willing to say that most persons repowering an older boat put much more time researching and shopping thier purchases than those buying these super boats. In fact the color selection of the new gen2 etecs may be more infuential to them than the technological advancements.

Russ 13 posted 06-30-2014 09:05 AM ET (US)     Profile for Russ 13  Send Email to Russ 13     
Great ideas, the steering & rigging improvements alone are awesome. Glad to see they stayed with the two stroke engine. Did they mention any form of catalyst in the exhaust? Like my Yamaha engines, but this would be very tempting, when it's time to repower!
Dave Sutton posted 06-30-2014 09:20 AM ET (US)     Profile for Dave Sutton  Send Email to Dave Sutton     
"but this new boston whaler outrage that cost over $400,000 only comes with mercury verado motors"


What an excellent reason to buy an Edgewater (who is going to be using these engines on their products).

The Mercury-Required transom is going to quickly become a negative selling point for BW (more so than now im any case).

I sent Jim an assortment of photos of these on an assortment of boats. It looked like a very wide variety of top quality OEM hull makers had early access to these for engineering. BW is really going to be left behind in this race.


Dave

[ASIDE: Dave--I posted more of your images to the rigging thread. As always, many thanks for sending them. --jimh]

jimh posted 06-30-2014 01:12 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
If you want to talk about the actual new outboard engine, the E-TEC G2, please post more to this thread.

There was a rather goofy sidebar that invaded this discussion by people postulating the effect of new products on the value of older products. That sidebar has been deleted. Future comments on that topic will also be deleted.

Let us, please, discuss the actual product. And if you have not seen the actual product in person and on a boat, please refrain from giving your opinion of its size, shape, and color, and graphics. Generally one needs to actually see something in person to be able to appreciate its appearance. If you have just seen a picture or two, I am not sure you can really make any sort of judgement. Thanks.

jimh posted 06-30-2014 01:24 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
I have heard no mention of a catalytic convertor in the exhaust. I am not sure how one could be used with an exhaust that is full of water. I think that is a fundamental road block for outboard engines.

According to Evinrude, the exhaust emission of the E-TEC G2 is lower than the prior E-TEC engines. This results from better combustion and less unburnt fuel. Those characteristics also improve fuel economy and power output. The result is a win, win, win situation: less emission, better fuel economy, more power.

My speculation is that BRP would not have gone on this path of development unless there were some assurance that the new engine design would be able to meet existing and near future EPA emission regulations.

While worthy of its own discussion and a separate thread, I will mention briefly that EPA measurement of emission of engines operating propellers was changed in 2013. The EPA established stricter limits by imposing regions of exhaust emission that could not be exceeded, known as Not To Exceed or NTE limits. These NTE limits further restricted engines in their exhaust emission, and may have been a constraint on how the prior E-TEC engines were tuned and curved for EPA compliance with them. My speculation is that the E-TEC G2 is able to comply with these NTE limits with ease, and this affords Evinrude better options in the future for emission compliance while still being able to tune and curve the engines for the kind of performance they want to get from them.

jimh posted 06-30-2014 02:07 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
As part of the new product roll-out, Evinrude also introduced a new line of propellers. You can see the new propellers on some of the engines pictured in the first article in this thread. The blade shapes look rather complex.

In the first image posted in the thread you can also see (although not perfectly clearly) an exhaust port aperture on the propeller hub with a variable valve. This arrangement permits the amount of through-hub exhaust that can vent outward through these openings to be varied by adjustment of the valve. This appears to provide a built-in adjustment method for selecting the amount of initial propeller slip on acceleration. This feature is probably more interesting for very high speed bass boat designs than for classic Boston Whaler boats that operate mostly at speeds around 30-MPH. There is not much history of useful application of these propeller spoiling exhaust vents on Boston Whaler boats.

The new blade shapes are very interesting, and it will remain to be seen how they work with the E-TEC G2. I believe some of the designs may fit the E-TEC as well. There is a new RX-4 four-blade propeller design, and, based on the images, there appears to be at least one new three-blade design, too. I don't think these propellers are available in production quantities right now, but should be coming in a month or so.

jimh posted 07-04-2014 10:17 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
In the two weeks since the public reveal of the Evinrude E-TEC G2 outboard, many recordings about the E-TEC G2 are posted on youTube. Here is a index of a few:

A one-minute montage of views of the new E-TEC G2 on various boats set to modern music:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_egqZLMd1Y

A one-and-one-half minute sequence of short recordings (without any narration) of a 250-HP E-TEC G2 engine operating at various engine speeds; natural sound only:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5nJzHfnOuc

An on-screen presenter stands next to an Evinrude G2 and points out features:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gypn7rYep9U
(The recording consists primarily of one continuous, unedited shot.}

Two people stand on the dock, conducting an interview, while a boat with an E-TEC G2 bobs in the background.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qr2VK6zWlMM
(This is another continuous, unedited shot, with the camera randomly panning and zooming.)

A fourty-second recording with natural sound of a triple-engine boat accelerating onto plane with three 300-HP E-TEC G2 engines:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdUJr2cJ7pA

A one-minute compendium of on-camera comments, all favorable, on the Evinrude E-TEC G2. Professionally recorded and edited:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--aSX67dOQ0

Two-and-one-half minute recording showing operation of E-TEC G2 250-HP engine with natural sound (with off camera comments in background) on a SCOUT boat:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIXH1E09APE
(Many close-up views of the rigging and engine mount.)

Nearly six-minute presentation which is nicely edited and narrated, using some pre-produced video elements:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tw309TNF42o


jimh posted 07-18-2014 08:57 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
More presentations on the E-TEC G2 engine, all by Eric Olsen of Evinrude. Mr. Olsen works in Product Development and worked on the G2. He presents in three short recordings:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dNH1H8kqbY
Mr. Olsen introduces himself and explains many features of the new Clean Rigging system. The new fuel pump and its features are also explained.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCMCYgmvM_I
This segement explains many interesting details of the new engine, including the power steering, engine air intake, alternator cooling air flow, and gear case.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jx-cZE6RiuM
The new Evinrude ICON II engine instrumentation and system control device is demonstrated. (Note that due to the shutter speed and frame rate used on the camera, the display of the new ICON II is very poorly shown.)

jimh posted 07-20-2014 08:35 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
At the E-TEC G2 introduction, Evinrude showed a slide comparing the propshaft torque of the E-TEC G2 250 H.O. to the Yamaha 250 SHO and Mercury OptiMax 250 ProXS. The slide showed a plot of torque as a function of engine speed, and the new E-TEC G2 had an enormous 20-percent higher mid-RPM torque advantage.

Chart of propshaft torque v. engine speed

Jefecinco posted 07-20-2014 09:45 AM ET (US)     Profile for Jefecinco  Send Email to Jefecinco     
Twenty percent is a huge advantage. I would like to know how BRP managed to squeeze that out of the GEN 2 engine. Is there a displacement advantage? Did BRP do something revolutionary with the intake or exhaust runners? Is it the sum of several small changes?

Butch

seahorse posted 07-20-2014 05:36 PM ET (US)     Profile for seahorse    

It is the sum of many engineering changes and unique designs such as the following patent by BRP Evinrude. The G2 is completely new from the removable top cover to the cambered skeg shape plus everything in between. About the only things interchangeable with the G1 E-TEC are the fuel filter, some bearings, and a couple of sensors.


https://www.google.com/patents/US20140102400?dq=US+20140102400+A1&hl=en&sa=X&ei=X25zU7GcEdCK4gTCqIEg&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAA

Don SSDD posted 07-20-2014 08:27 PM ET (US)     Profile for Don SSDD    
Be nice to have those charts with torque curves on all engines. Most times all that is advertised and readily available are peak numbers, which don't tell the whole story.

For insurance purposes, you can't "overpower" a boat horsepower wise, but you can add 20% more torque, with a G2 etec.

Don

jharrell posted 07-20-2014 08:51 PM ET (US)     Profile for jharrell    
One way you get 20% more torque is measure it at the prop shaft against two engines with highier gearing, 1.75 for the Yan and Merc vs 1.85 for the G2. Measuring torque through gearing is either purposely misleading or stupid.
Dave Sutton posted 07-20-2014 10:05 PM ET (US)     Profile for Dave Sutton  Send Email to Dave Sutton     
Measuring torque at the propeller is an indicator of the power available from the engine. It's exactly how aircraft engines are measured, geared or not.


Dave

.

jimh posted 07-20-2014 11:17 PM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
The difference in 1.85 and 1.75 is 0.1. That is a difference of 0.1/1.75 or about 5.7-percent. If the difference in torque were due to gearing it would only differ by 5.7-percent, not 20-percent.
sosmerc posted 07-20-2014 11:22 PM ET (US)     Profile for sosmerc  Send Email to sosmerc     
I think I have said it many times, but here goes again......
the best way to get a fair comparison of torque and horsepower is to compare the engines on a dyno. On an hydraulic dyno you simply divide the rpm by the gear ratio and multiply it times the pressure reading on the dyno to come up with "output units". The higher the output units for a given rpm the higher the hp and torque. As long as the atmospheric conditions are the same at the time of testing, you will get a very fair test result. I don't recall ever seeing comparison testing done in this manner, yet it my opinion it would be the very best way to compare the power and torque output of various engines.
jharrell posted 07-20-2014 11:37 PM ET (US)     Profile for jharrell    
Gears multiply torque, comparing torque through different gear ratios tells you almost nothing of value, anyone who knows engine basics knows you don't compare torque with different gear ratios. Do you compare wheel torque on cars? If you do, do you put one in a lower gear than the other and make a graph claiming superior wheel torque? You would be a laughing stock.

5.7% less then 20% is 14.3% therefore the G2 does not produce 20% more torque, to say so is misleading, 14% is respectable there is no need to over inflate it.

There is a reason you don't see a Suzuki on that chart, with it s low gear ratio it would probably match the G2.

Dave Sutton posted 07-21-2014 12:43 AM ET (US)     Profile for Dave Sutton  Send Email to Dave Sutton     
"Gears multiply torque, comparing torque through different gear ratios tells you almost nothing of value"


Nonsense.

To offer an answer like this on an A&P (Airframe & Powerplant license) oral or written test would give you a failing score.

Propellers are propellers, no matter what fluid they transmit power to. Torque & HP *at the Prop* is measurable power no matter how it gets there. Nothing else means a thing.....

I doubt that Suzuki is even on the Evinrude radar. Heck, they *barely* consider Mercury to be any competition.

Dave

.

martyn1075 posted 07-21-2014 02:50 AM ET (US)     Profile for martyn1075  Send Email to martyn1075     
"I doubt that Suzuki is even on the Evinrude radar. Heck, they *barely* consider Mercury to be any competition."

Those are just words a voice only. Call it arrogance maybe call it fan support or where passion and honor lie to his or her job and employer or maybe the truth but its just that words. Other companies do it as well so its not really a huge surprise. Numbers usually tell the truth who is on the radar. If Etecs numbers are on top or on the rise in a very sharp way then talk the big talk. Otherwise its just talk and some will run away with eyes wide open but others ignore it and continue to out sell the competition.

Don SSDD posted 07-21-2014 05:29 AM ET (US)     Profile for Don SSDD    
Evinrude, Yamaha, and Mercury would all be matching their gear ratios to their outboard's torque curves to produce the best performance possible across all RPM's for their motors.

If Yamaha and Mercury could produce better torque numbers at the same gear ratio as Evinrude, they would be using those gear ratios wouldn't they?

Don

jimh posted 07-21-2014 07:32 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
There is another curve showing horsepower as a function of engine speed. I will post that in a few days. It shows the E-TEC G2 ahead of the others. The Yamaha SHO catches up at 6,000-RPM.

The comparison to automobiles is not very good because automobiles have transmissions with variable gear ratios. Outboard engines deliver power to the propeller shaft through a fixed gear ratio.

Again, the gear ratio difference is only 5.7-percent, and the torque output difference is 20-percent. There is no doubt the E-TEC G2 is producing more torque.

jimh posted 07-21-2014 08:30 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
To put the controversy about the gear ratio in better perspective, one could then say that instead of having an advantage in mid-range torque of about 100-ft-lbs, the E-TEC G2 has an advantage of about 95-foot pounds. I am not sure that anyone would say this was misleading or that to mention this advantage was stupid. No matter how you slice it, the E-TEC G2 has a rather significant advantage in available engine torque at the mid-range engine speed. This will translate into faster acceleration.
Dave Sutton posted 07-21-2014 10:44 AM ET (US)     Profile for Dave Sutton  Send Email to Dave Sutton     
"Those are just words a voice only. Call it arrogance maybe call it fan support or where passion and honor lie to his or her job and employer or maybe the truth but its just that words. Other companies do it as well so its not really a huge surprise. Numbers usually tell the truth who is on the radar. If Etecs numbers are on top or on the rise in a very sharp way then talk the big talk. Otherwise its just talk and some will run away with eyes wide open but others ignore it and continue to out sell the competition"

I'm trying to find a cogent thought in the mass of unlinked words above. I "think" (but am by no mkeans certain) that it means that you believe that Evinrude considers Mercury to be it's competition. Looking at the category of sales in which Mercury dominates (engines attached to package boats where the hull andengine are both produced by Brunswick), it's obvious that Evinrude and Mercury do not compete. Looking at repowers and at hulls *not manufactured by Brunswick*, Mercury has an absolutely insignificant percentage of sales. Looking at the coastal salt water boat marketplace for those "other manufacturer" hulls, Yamaha is the dominant market leader in many parts of the country with Evinrude being strong in others, with Suzuki having a share that's likely larger than Mercury.

Both Evinrude's statements as well as simply looking at transoms shows who their main competition is, and it's Yamaha at present. The new technology and new capabilities of the Gen2 engines will most certainly take Evinrude to a new level of desirability for high end hull OEM's, which is the market that Evinrude is looking for. High end OEM's simply do not put Mercury on the transom, by the largest numbers they put on Yamahas.


Back to the torque numbers, midrange torque has always been a hard place for 2 stroke engines, as they generally perform well at high RPM but not so well down lower. The numbers published are impressive and show real competition in just about the only area of performance in which 4 strokes have typically been better performers.


Dave

.

Peter posted 07-21-2014 11:01 AM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
"Back to the torque numbers, midrange torque has always been a hard place for 2 stroke engines, as they generally perform well at high RPM but not so well down lower."

I'm not sure I agree with this statement. I think its the other way around otherwise the 4-strokes would not need the high gear ratios coupled with larger displacement that they use. To get the torque output of a 2-stroke power head in the mid-range so as to use a similar gear ratio in the gear case, the 4-stroke power head typically has a displacement that is 20 to 25 percent larger than the 2-stroke.

Marlin posted 07-21-2014 11:26 AM ET (US)     Profile for Marlin  Send Email to Marlin     
There's no mystery about the relationship of torque and horsepower. Horsepower is defined as torque*rpm/5252, where 5252 is a "magic number" intended to make 1 horsepower about the power output of, well, one horse. Note that we need to get the torque and the RPM from the same source, the prop shaft, so we divide crankshaft RPM by the gear ratios.

If we convert this chart of torque into horsepower, we get this: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/GoldenDaze/Misc/ E-TECtorque_zpsa0e1c1d4.jpg

Pardon any minor errors, I was simply eyeballing Jim's torque chart for the numbers. And, of course, I'm assuming that the numbers are accurate.

The E-TEC develops its peak horsepower earlier, at about 4500 RPM, while the other engines hit their maximum power output at around 5000 RPM. Throughout the midrange from 3500-4500, the E-TEC is generating considerably more power. One would think that this would result in superior mid-range acceleration, though I'd expect no significant top-end performance difference between the E-TEC and the Yamaha.

It's also interesting to note that, again according to these numbers, both the E-TEC and the Yamaha are each producing more than 275 horsepower. The Optimax is about 257 horsepower.

Math does not lie, though marketing departments might.

-Bob

jharrell posted 07-21-2014 11:44 AM ET (US)     Profile for jharrell    
quote:
Torque & HP *at the Prop* is measurable power no matter how it gets there. Nothing else means a thing

Nothing else except RPM! Torque and RPM and be easily changed using gears, power can not. Torque is not equal to power it is one component of it. HP is a unit of power, torque and HP is not power, torque and RPM is, you get a failing score.

quote:
The comparison to automobiles is not very good because automobiles have transmissions with variable gear ratios.

Comparing propshaft torque through different LU gear ratios is just as bad. They are varying gear ratios!

You always adjust your torque plots by gear ratio to obtain true engine torque, not doing so gives you a number that tells you nothing about engine performance.

A lawn mower engine can produce more propshaft torque than a G2 if the gear ratio is low enough. You can get any propshaft torque number you want for a given engine RPM by changing gear ratios, why would you plot un-adjusted propshaft torque with engine RPM, it should be engine torque.

quote:
torque output difference is 20-percent.

14%

quote:
the E-TEC G2 has an advantage of about 95-foot pounds.

About 30 foot pounds comes from the gearing difference alone. So more like 65 foot pounds, still good, not as much as Evinrude claims, misleading or incompetent.

If the Yamaha had Suzuki's 2.08 LU gear ratio it would be producing 600 foot pounds of prop shaft torque at 4000 rpm nearly the same as the G2.

Don SSDD posted 07-21-2014 12:29 PM ET (US)     Profile for Don SSDD    
"If the Yamaha had Suzuki's 2.08 LU gear ratio it would be producing 600 foot pounds of prop shaft torque at 4000 rpm nearly the same as the G2."

So why would Yamaha not be using a 2.08?

I would guess the choice of a gear ratio is based on longevity, fuel economy, and the width of the power band- making power from say 1500-say 6000RPM in the case of a one speed gear ratio is what is needed in an outboard. The motor's gear ratio is designed to match the the design of the motor's power band.

Modern motor design has broadened the range of power of a motor. An older motor that made 350HP likely made it, or close to it, from 3000 to about 5500. A new 350HP makes power from 1220-6500RPM. They are both rated at 350HP.

If Yamaha's motor was a better performer overall with a 2.08, that's what the engineers would have built it with.

And why would it surprise anyone that a 2 stroke had more power than a 4 stroke?

To settle this, we need a race with matched boats, only difference is the motors. Other than that, it is all talk, just arguing over advertising.

Don

jharrell posted 07-21-2014 03:46 PM ET (US)     Profile for jharrell    
quote:
So why would Yamaha not be using a 2.08?

Because gearing can be offset with prop pitch which acts like a final gear, why do you think Suzuki's all run such tall props? Yamaha was more concerned with other things such as bullet size or pinion size maybe, doesn't matter much in the end just use a different pitch prop. Thats why plotting prop-shaft torque is so ridiculous.

quote:
And why would it surprise anyone that a 2 stroke had more power than a 4 stroke?

Who said it was a surprise? It just not 20%, that is misleading since 5-6% of it has nothing to do with the engine stroke.

elvis posted 07-21-2014 05:11 PM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
Getting a lot of ugly for $16,000...IMHO...

I'm looking to repower my Guardian18 with a new 200, and while I'd like to do Evinrude, I'm struggling greatly with this new look, as it's not traditional like my boat, and in the past weeks, it just isn't growing on me.

I want simple, easy to understand under the hood that is reliable, conservative and traditional looking, and reasonably priced.

Yeah, I know some want and live for the newest and highest tech, and I can respect that, but I feel like the more complicated the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain.

On looks, it just doesn't seem to balance, it reminds me of the old boxcar Chryslers, the decals look wrong, and I hate the colors. Other than that, it's pretty sharp.

Again, just one buyer's opinion...everyone's got one.

If I could get past all of that, the tech specs might get my serious attention, but I'm thinking Yammy at this point.

martyn1075 posted 07-21-2014 06:50 PM ET (US)     Profile for martyn1075  Send Email to martyn1075     
Its interesting your thoughts on the engine appearance. I'm an outsider when it comes to re-powering at the moment. When the time is right I will look with open eyes as I don't have a bias towards any of the companies. Saying that I would agree that the looks are not right. Should we base a decision on the looks alone probably not because its appearance are not what is going to bring you back safely from an "ugly" trip out on the water. However I still believe appearance is a important detail when deciding where your 15K plus is going imo.

A really good analogy would be the Honda Ridgeline. The truck happens to be a outstanding performer in the "mid size" class. When first released it was cutting edge in how a truck can be so functional but mechanically had systems in place that were fairly sophisticated which now are dated. The truck is no longer in production it ended a month back. It never was accepted largely because people could not get over its lines specifically the back rail that slopped up. While others would be bringing there trucks in for service the Ridgeline was and is quietly plugging along with a very healthy track record. Over 200K of regular driving and rec towing right up to its max with just regular scheduled maintenance is not out of the ordinary. Still many will not buy a Ridgeline looks seem to be very important factor. Yes if you need a full size truck of course that would be the main factor for those people but if thats the case ask yourself would you still look at a Honda if it was given its unorthodox appearance and in some ways its mechanical as well? Be honest I bet the answer is no. I would safely put the G2 in that category. Probably could not find a single problem mechanically to perform what it was designed to do, but wait a second what's going on with the looks?

elvis posted 07-21-2014 08:01 PM ET (US)     Profile for elvis  Send Email to elvis     
Hi Martyn...good points.

Isn't much of the technology on this motor new and largely untested by the masses?

I thought it just came out, and I don't know a single person who owns one.

How it holds up in years to come will be interesting, and set the precedent.

jimh posted 07-22-2014 10:35 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
I like cooked carrots better than raw carrots. It's an opinion.
Jefecinco posted 07-22-2014 05:18 PM ET (US)     Profile for Jefecinco  Send Email to Jefecinco     
Sorry, but back to torque.

Why is it important to measure power, HP or torque, at the propeller shaft without regard to gear ratio?

Engines are sold with gears and the ratios they produce regardless of other factors. The ratios are not owner manageable ie. they are fixed and choices are not available.

All engines compete in the same marketplace. If it is important to a manufacturer to be able to claim better performance or better torque numbers they can change their gear ratios or increase their power output in other ways.

What is not debatable is that the E-TEC GEN2 engine discussed is much more powerful than the competition at mid-range RPM. Is that difficult to grasp or am I simply wrong?

Butch

jharrell posted 07-22-2014 10:37 PM ET (US)     Profile for jharrell    
quote:
Why is it important to measure power, HP or torque, at the propeller shaft without regard to gear ratio?

Prop-shaft power is important to measure because some power is lost due to friction through the gearing, torque however is not power and is greatly amplified by the gears while rpm is lowered. Gears don't create power, they simply trade rpm for torque or vice versa. It would be trivial to make a pedal system that allows you to put out more torque at the prop-shaft than a G2 using a set of gears.

quote:
Engines are sold with gears and the ratios they produce regardless of other factors. The ratios are not owner manageable ie. they are fixed and choices are not available.

Prop's are however easily changed and offset the gearing differences, they act like final gears. 5-6% of Evinrudes claimed 20% advantage doesn't actually exist so long as you prop each engine correctly. Claiming 20% when it's actually only 14% is ok with you? They could very easily have plotted corrected engine torque by dividing by gear ratio of each engine, yet they didn't. Purposely misleading to increase the number or incompetence are the only possibilities.

quote:
If it is important to a manufacturer to be able to claim better performance or better torque numbers they can change their gear ratios or increase their power output in other ways.

Torque is not power. This is why it is so misleading to plot prop-shaft torque, too many people don't understand the difference.

sosmerc posted 07-23-2014 12:24 AM ET (US)     Profile for sosmerc  Send Email to sosmerc     
On a propshaft dyno you would measure hydraulic pressure X rpm to produce "output units". As long as atmospheric conditions are equal during testing, this simple formula would be a fair comparison of power output from one engine vs. another. It's so simple and so logical that.....it's never been done for public consumption. (that I am aware of)
Peter posted 07-23-2014 09:00 AM ET (US)     Profile for Peter  Send Email to Peter     
quote:
Prop-shaft power is important to measure because some power is lost due to friction through the gearing, torque however is not power and is greatly amplified by the gears while rpm is lowered.

HP is a mathematical unit derived from two measured items torque and RPM. The formula is HP = (torque x RPM)/5252. Whatever frictional losses are incurred in the HP determination are also lost in the transfer of the crankshaft torque to the prop shaft torque through the gears. The torque at the prop shaft is the net torque available after all frictional losses and multipliers are applied.

Jefecinco posted 07-23-2014 10:08 AM ET (US)     Profile for Jefecinco  Send Email to Jefecinco     
Horsepower is a measurement derived from torque. Torque is a measurement of a source of power's ability to turn a shaft against resistance. We can split hairs all day long and we can apply definitions all day long but to say torque is not power seems to me to be a little silly.

I believe it is equally silly to imply Evinrude cooked the books by using improper propeller choices on competitors engines to arrive at the 20% advantage claimed for the E-TEC GEN2 engine. Ultimately buyers of boat engines choose propellers suited for their applications and preferences. To claim propeller selection changes an engine's torque production is like saying changing tire size changes the torque claimed by a vehicle manufacturer. Would it suit to measure output at the flywheel without regard for lower unit parasitic losses?

If Evinrude cheats I'm sure the competitors will produce the data to prove it.

Butch

Dave Sutton posted 07-23-2014 11:26 AM ET (US)     Profile for Dave Sutton  Send Email to Dave Sutton     
Many interesting half-statements, but only a few complete ones.


This:


"Torque is not power. This is why it is so misleading to plot prop-shaft torque, too many people don't understand the difference."


Is misleading because it's only a half statement, because it does not include the other factor, which is RPM. One number without the other is meaningless. Yes, you can gear the output of a bicycle to have more torque than a 300 HP engine. You just can't do it at a RPM that would push a boat at 50 knots....


This:

"HP is a mathematical unit derived from two measured items torque and RPM. The formula is HP = (torque x RPM)/5252. Whatever frictional losses are incurred in the HP determination are also lost in the transfer of the crankshaft torque to the prop shaft torque through the gears. The torque at the prop shaft is the net torque available after all frictional losses and multipliers are applied"


Comments correctly on the RPM variable in the equation.


This:


"Horsepower is a measurement derived from torque. Torque is a measurement of a source of power's ability to turn a shaft against resistance. We can split hairs all day long and we can apply definitions all day long but to say torque is not power seems to me to be a little silly.
I believe it is equally silly to imply Evinrude cooked the books by using improper propeller choices on competitors engines to arrive at the 20% advantage claimed for the E-TEC GEN2 engine. Ultimately buyers of boat engines choose propellers suited for their applications and preferences. To claim propeller selection changes an engine's torque production is like saying changing tire size changes the torque claimed by a vehicle manufacturer. Would it suit to measure output at the flywheel without regard for lower unit parasitic losses? If Evinrude cheats I'm sure the competitors will produce the data to prove it"


Is precisely right.

Torque is the ability to turn a shaft against a resistance. That needs to be done at an RPM that provides usable rates of work. If you want to know what's available to turn a propeller, you measure it *at the shaft*.


Think of a black-box: You have a shaft sticking out of a black box and you can measure the forces and RPM's at the shaft. But you have NO IDEA what's on the other side of the partition. You don't know if it's a steam engine, a gas turbine, a diesel, or a 2 or 4 stroke gasoline engine. You have no idea of the gearing, powertrain design, or any other variables. You simply have the output shaft and the ability to draw power from it. You have a throttle handle that can vary the RPM. You can measure what you have, put a propeller on it that uses the power at a RPM where you see that the "system" is in it's sweet spot torque-wise, calculate horsepower if you like, and then use it for your needs. Note that this is all done at the shaft and what's upstream of that shaft is completely irrelevent. Guess what? That's EXACTLY how the propeller sees things. Measurement at the shaft is *precisely* the information that is of value to the end user, and for setting up a propeller, and for actually USING the "Black Box" that is the engine. What RPM is the crankshaft turning? <yawn>.. That's inside the black box and "who cares?".

Dave

.


seahorse posted 07-23-2014 01:03 PM ET (US)     Profile for seahorse    

This is getting comical discussing torque at the propshaft.

Back when the 150 Evinrude had the tug of war with the 150 Yamaha, Evinrude published a torque chart that was measured at the crankshaft comparing both outboards.

The internet experts went crazy badmouthing Evinrude for doing such a thing instead of measuring at the propshaft where the gearing would level the playing field for what the propeller "saw" which would give a better indication of how a boat would accelerate.

The EPA requires propshaft dyno results when certifying engines for emission levels and ICOMIA and NMMA standards for horsepower ratings are also propshaft results, again to level the playing field.

Of course all these reports are done to agreed industry standards under laboratory conditions and even laboratory gasoline is used to keep things repeatable. The dynos are not hydraulic pumps or water wheel styles found in a shop, but electrical and highly calibrated models used in industry.

dfmcintyre posted 07-23-2014 02:27 PM ET (US)     Profile for dfmcintyre  Send Email to dfmcintyre     
Dave -

(somewhat off core subject....though we've gone from looks, color, torque...)

Is there a standard percent figure of torque loss when going through a 90 degree universal?

I.e., same engine, is there a loss (and if so, by how much) if the engine is a straight, traditional installation, vs same engine powering a sterndrive (heck, to confuse issues, a "V" drive too).

Thanks - Don (in wondering mode)

Dave Sutton posted 07-23-2014 10:49 PM ET (US)     Profile for Dave Sutton  Send Email to Dave Sutton     
^^

Frictional losses aside, it has to do with any gear ratio change in the gearbox. Pinion gears with the same tooth count? Not a significant difference. Change the count of the teeth away from a 1:1 ratio and things obviously change.


Dave

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Mike Brantley posted 07-25-2014 01:34 AM ET (US)     Profile for Mike Brantley  Send Email to Mike Brantley     
Wow.... sorry I am late to the thread, but just encountered these pictures, and ... wow. This is some industrial design that will take me some time getting used to. Squinting my eyes and trying to picture it on a classic Whaler hull. Who will be first to do it and post pictures? Heh. Anyway, glad Evinrude is still in the game. One day I'd like to own another E-TEC outboard. (It has been a few years since I sold my little boat with the new 50-horsepower E-TEC on it.)
jharrell posted 07-25-2014 11:29 AM ET (US)     Profile for jharrell    
quote:
Whatever frictional losses are incurred in the HP determination are also lost in the transfer of the crankshaft torque to the prop shaft torque through the gears.

No torque can be gained through gearing, the G2 looks like it's putting out 335 ft-lbs at 4000 rpm yet the plot shows 620 ft-lbs at the prop shaft, thats not a loss. Gears multiply torque, they lose some power doing so.

quote:
Torque is a measurement of a source of power's ability to turn a shaft against resistance. We can split hairs all day long and we can apply definitions all day long but to say torque is not power seems to me to be a little silly.

Sorry I am not splitting hairs, power is a word that has a meaning, you can look it up, and torque is not power, simple as that. Power is a rate like speed is a rate. Do you say miles is a speed? Do you say hours is a speed? No but mile per hour is a speed.

quote:
Is misleading because it's only a half statement, because it does not include the other factor, which is RPM. One number without the other is meaningless. Yes, you can gear the output of a bicycle to have more torque than a 300 HP engine. You just can't do it at a RPM that would push a boat at 50 knots....

Really you are going to correct me that RPM is a component of power, hah! Your words earlier:

quote:
Torque & HP *at the Prop* is measurable power no matter how it gets there. Nothing else means a thing.....

Now all the sudden RPM means something which is what I have been saying all along and was exactly the point, come on.

This is the problem with Evinrudes plot, it has prop-shaft torque with engine rpm, where the prop-shaft rpm? I can get a lawn mower engine to 4000 rpm and producing 600 ft-lbs of prop-shaft torque but the prop-shaft rpm might only be 5, so what not on the plot.

quote:
What RPM is the crankshaft turning? <yawn>.. That's inside the black box and "who cares?".

Well that is exactly what Evinrude plotted, crank rpm.

quote:
The EPA requires propshaft dyno results when certifying engines for emission levels and ICOMIA and NMMA standards for horsepower ratings are also propshaft results, again to level the playing field.

Why do all dynos have a engine rpm sensor? It's not needed to calc prop-shaft power, its to correct for gearing so when you plot torque you remove gear multiplication.

jharrell posted 07-25-2014 11:38 AM ET (US)     Profile for jharrell    
So here is a plot of a Yamaha SHO 250 and E-TEC 250 G2 HO with the only difference being the Yamaha now has the same 2.33 gear ratio my F70 does:

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ yRLSMm6rzmcYsZ3mxngyOFV6nyF50tE1CTcrrqDLDqg?feat=directlink

Look at that the Yamaha handily beats the E_TEC at all RPM's in prop-shaft torque with only a gear change. IT putting out nearly 700 ft-lbs of torque at 4500 rpm!

You guys really think including gear multiplication is a good indicator of engine torque? Nobody else does.

LU gearing is about prop pitch, the engine makes the power not the gears, a Yamaha 250 HO with 2.33 gears would need a 30+ pitch prop.

Dave Sutton posted 07-25-2014 11:38 AM ET (US)     Profile for Dave Sutton  Send Email to Dave Sutton     
^^

"This is the problem with Evinrudes plot, it has prop-shaft torque with engine rpm, where the prop-shaft rpm? I can get a lawn mower engine to 4000 rpm and producing 600 ft-lbs of prop-shaft torque but the prop-shaft rpm might only be 5, so what not on the plot"


You know, I *bet* that Evinrude is running the propshaft at more than 5 RPM... ;-)

Since Evinrude used the same parameters for all of the engines it plotted, and assuming for a moment that Evinrude has set the ratio between prop shaft speed and engine speed so as to have the propshaft turning at a speed that is usable for a boat (is that a good guess?)... it's back to "who cares?".... The torque versus RMP curves are still illustrative of how useful the engine will be in the mid range. And it's one slide in a powerpoint. Get over it.

Further noting that this is not a peer reviewed technical publication being submitted to SAE or the Society of Experimental Test Pilots, but is a casual conversation being conducted among friends, again... <yawn>.....


Dave

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jharrell posted 07-25-2014 11:45 AM ET (US)     Profile for jharrell    
quote:
The torque versus RMP curves are still illustrative of how useful the engine will be in the mid range. And it's one slide in a powerpoint. Get over it.

The engine torque would be more illustrative and accurate and takes no extra effort to calculate, dynos already do it, but then Evinrude would not be able to claim 20%.

jimh posted 07-26-2014 05:32 AM ET (US)     Profile for jimh  Send Email to jimh     
No matter how it is to be measured, at the propeller shaft or at the crankshaft, the E-TEC has more torque. The discussion is now quibbling about a difference in perhaps five percent. It is silly. The E-TEC G2 has more torque than the other two engines in the comparison. No amount of sophistry or word smithing is going to change it.

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